User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 03 17

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:00]	Moon Metty:	hello Andrew :)
[11:00]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Andrew
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	hello everyone
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	nice hat Rex!
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... I'm all decked out in St. Patty's greenery in RL, but nothing here
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	thank:)
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	ahhh, st Patrick's day
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	that's not really a tradition in holland
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	:)
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	u don't have to be irish to celebrate:)
[11:02]	xstorm Radek:	i did not do it what ever it was *GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 23:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler gave you St Patick's Bear. By Till..........Just wear..
[11:02]	xstorm Radek:	are we going to sit ?
[11:02]	xstorm Radek:	hi open
[11:03]	Moon Metty:	hey Storm :)
[11:03]	xstorm Radek:	hi Moon
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	wow, my first blingy
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler'd like Andrew to sit at the booth, or read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3945
[11:03]	Moon Metty:	hi Arawn !
[11:03]	Yann Dufaux:	heya Simone!!! :))
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	i had a sim crash running my sculpty tool
[11:04]	Yann Dufaux:	i'm appy of see you! :)
[11:04]	xstorm Radek:	it was fun
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	Works for me
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Where is the booth Arawn?
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	ah, the green thing
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	u have 2 rotate it a little:)
[11:04]	Yann Dufaux:	Simon, oups sorry!! LOL
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	ah, I was wondering where Simone was :)
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I'll try to sit on the booth. The outer edge I take it?
[11:05]	Yann Dufaux:	Hehehe
[11:05]	xstorm Radek:	he he he he
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	You're able to sit? I wasn't
[11:06]	Yann Dufaux:	i,m habitued to see simone, and noelle with CT project :)
[11:06]	Keith Tungsten:	keith tungsten
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	something is standing me up again
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Did someone take a copy?
[11:06]	xstorm Radek:	yes 7 time
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	We get stood, when someone takes a copy, but Sitting seems to've become a problem, in 1.25.6; I don't know if it's a sim dependant problem
[11:07]	xstorm Radek:	hi
[11:07]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	oh right... taking a copy would unsit. I should fix that.
[11:07]	xstorm Radek:	hi Stev come have a chair
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	For all I know, Sim Lag could be blocking hte ray casting.
[11:07]	Yann Dufaux:	hello andrew :)
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	No, ray casting shouldnt be affected by ray casting.
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Note, one change post Havok4 is that you tend to sit closer to where you actually clicked on the object
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	And that works very well too
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	so if you take care with where you click you should be able to sit where you actually want
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	but if you're sloppy and just click the object you may get oriented funny
[11:09]	Moon Metty:	when exactly is a surface not suitable to sit on?
[11:09]	Keith Tungsten:	mocha
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	the "find a place to sit" code searches for an edge to sit on
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	so you'll probably sit on the edge closest to where you clicked.
[11:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think those should be separate actions: sit(), and sitAtSelectedPosition()
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	Keith - you gotta go back to the platform for the next clues
[11:10]	xstorm Radek:	Keith the clues are very plane
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Announcements... do we have any?
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	SVC-3945, I think it is, shows something borked in Sit, with 1.25.6. It seems more variable than in 1.25.0, on which I filed SVC-3411
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3945
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	The only thing I've got to announce is that I'm still working on "object-parcel collision query" stuff for allowing land owners to be able to return stuff that overlaps their parcel.
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Make the parcel a virtual object?
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	I think we may indeed have an override for "Linden Content", such that some Linden owned content is not returnable.
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Not 100% sure. That is still in discussion.
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	I had some info on 1.26 and the beta grid ... we had a few fixes applied over the weekend and yesterday, so it should be running OK there now
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	but someone pointed out that Luna currently uses small parcels loaned out to Residents, while the mall is Linden owned.
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: how about making the non-returnable set user-defineable?
[11:13]	Moon Metty:	interesting Simon
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Depends how nasty the Linden ROW neighbors are
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	If they get antsy - a lotta linden content could need rebuilding
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I'm adding a per-region switch on the "return on overlap" feature.
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sure, but I meant, instead of treating Linden context as special, make the set extensible.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, are there recent bug fixes to discuss in server-1.26?
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	And just populate the set with Linden only by default
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I would expect estate owners to want an "Estate content" override flag.
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	More work for group flags?
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I think there was some bug about estate access lists or groups that were messed up in server-1.26. That was fixed this morning.
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Linden Content would generally be Linden as Estate Officer, as opposed to Linden as Parcel Owner or Linden as Server or Grid Owners
[11:16]	Simon Linden:	I don't know where the bug fix or release notes for 1.26 are, I'll ping someone and ask....
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, there is a special hard-coded whitelist of Linden's whose objects are "Linden Content"
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if that whitelist is active in private estates... I'll have to check.
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Beta_Server/1.26
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	But Governor Linden, and others who have built content for Linden in the past are on that list.
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: does that linden list work by owner's name?
[11:17]	Yann Dufaux:	i have tested an thing about other bugs yesterday, but i don,t know where is fixed ^^
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	We should probably move all of their content to be owned by Governor (and Cyan Linden for Teen SL) and then clear out that big long whitelist.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, the whitelist works by owner_id, so it is a list of their id's.
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	THousands of objects?
[11:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Isn't the Governor a Waldo?
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	I have been looking at stuff on Linden Land - group Maintainance - and the object owners are a whole array of Lindens.
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	The objects are in group Maintenance of course
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Array of Lindens is all well and good, but we wants arrays in LSL :-)
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I think that whitelist is something that needs to be cleaned up eventually, but not too high priority.
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler'd lik to expand the Access Lists, to allow and deny group and country buyilds, mostly so that merchants won't need more than 25 groups
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Arrays in LSL. I'd much rather have a llpython version of the scripting language. It would have arrays be default.
[11:21]	Kitto Flora:	Seing how long it takes anything in infrastructure to get fixed - even when severly broken, that could take centuries.
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew++
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Indeed Kitto.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Although if you believe some of the futurists we should hit the singularity before 2050.
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	You can't hit the singularity, by definition ;-)
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is thee a way of searching the objects of a particular owner? It sounds like a good map feature, for lost balloon vehicles.
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Really! Humm - taht would prove that motion exceeding lightspeed is possible!
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	arrays are such a simple structure, but so hard to implement?
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Not here though - you'd crash first :)
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Well.. you can hit the singularity under one theory... it just means the theory breaks down and you need a new more correct one.
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Light travels at the speed of Space Creation, and actually has a wide variable
[11:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nah, trivial to implement, I've done it in several languages. And Don Linden had arrays already working in LSL, 3 years ago. But that's how things happen in LL, projects mysteriously get dropped.
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	So if the paradigm shift is big enough then it is a singularity from the initial theory.
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	Are you talking singularity - as in black-hole?
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I don't remember Don's arrays, but I'd believe that he had them worked out.
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	I'll ask him what happened.
[11:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kitto: nah, the futurist singularity, as in Vernor Vinge
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	As in Skynet's TP problems are solved, and it takes over?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Actually, I was talking singularities in general. Black holes and infinite masses of electrons in early QED
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Heh
[11:25]	xstorm Radek:	*GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 23:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler doesn't recall if an object would actually slow to the speed of light, when falling into a black star, but seems to recall the experiments used to be a lot of fun: are we talking about AD2012?
[11:26]	xstorm Radek:	then you get sucked in by it
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	The rule of thumb is... if you ask a theory a question and it answers you with a singularity, then you have a bad theory.
[11:26]	Moon Metty:	:)
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	As happened with all attempts to unify the other forces with gravity.
[11:26]	Kitto Flora:	The problem here is more about the singularity of group permissions
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-)
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Er... nto a "bad" theory, but one that breaks down. You need a better theory to answer the question.
[11:27]	Keith Tungsten:	That would be " is happening" as grvity is still not unified.
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Gravity is simply a gradient of retardation around administrators and other cumbersome objects
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	But, on to SL matters... anyone have questions or issues?
[11:27]	Moon Metty:	what's happening with emails?
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe andrew's Linden Encroachment problem and an emerging multi-sim vehicle problems could be dealt with by the same solution?
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler wonders how to conjoin SVC-3945 wiht SVC-22
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow, 22?
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-22 is a region crossing bug, as I recall.
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	I'd like to mine the office hour transcripts someday and chart how long it takes SVC-22 to come up :)
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could SVC-22 be handled, if encroaching objects were allowed the time to prove themselves non-temp?
[11:30]	Andrew Linden looks up SVC-22 to refresh his memory.
[11:30]	Simon Linden:	"Parcel restrictions inappropriately applied to vehicles on border crossings."
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the problem is that the parcel restrictions in the other region are not transferred properly to the current region.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	So there is a check that needs to be done on the simulator before the vehicle + avatar crosses, but the simulator doesn't even have the information that it needs for the logic.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	So we have to add that info to some message, or add a new communication message, and then add the logic.
[11:32]	Moon Metty:	it's not something that is updated often
[11:32]	Moon Metty:	only on the connecting of the regions
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	The sim needs a table of data about what lies beyond its borders?
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	It seems the avatar is the only datum that knows of the sitting relationship.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the access info can change, and we'd have to catch that event and update across the border, or else just retransmit the info at some interval
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	Sounds like a sim needs to build a table about perms at its border lines
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	and adjoing sims need to read that
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	In short, I could fix it if I had time to devote to it.
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sitting is such a bizarre concept. I really don't know how we're going to get that into the MMOX protocol.
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Random action on object I guess, non-portable.
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler doesn't want to open this page but, is the lsl_guide lost? \ http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:LSL_Portal#LSL_Guide_lost
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	here's an issue... what do you think about L$0 transactions? Should L$0 transactions be allowed? Do they have utility?
[11:35]	xstorm Radek:	LSL is old script will it matter ?
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	L$0 Purchases are used to deistribute freebies, and class packs
[11:36]	xstorm Radek:	yes please keep L$0
[11:36]	Moon Metty:	the ability to pay 0L$ ...
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	L$0 transactions are the only way for residents to transfer in-world assets
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Someone added an internal jira to disallow L$0 transactions
[11:36]	xstorm Radek:	what ?
[11:36]	Moon Metty:	o_O
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I think there is a debate going on about it... but they aren't carrying it out in the comments of the bug. hrm.
[11:36]	xstorm Radek:	thats crazy
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: I'm pretty sure $0 currency exchanges are going into a generic MMOX protocol, so you'd better keep them :-)
[11:37]	xstorm Radek:	inder what grounds ?
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	And LSL-guide download - *NEVER* used it -always used the web-accessed stuff
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	money linden:)
[11:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	The ability to pay L$0 is only a problem, because only 3rd Party Viewers would kknow about the possibility. It should probably be mentioned in the Wikis
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	It was waste of d/l space
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Didn't we remove the downloaded LSL guide already?
[11:37]	Opensource Obscure:	you did.
[11:37]	xstorm Radek:	they have no real base for having it removed
[11:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Zero is the only value that is portable across currencies </chuckle>
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, that is what I thought. James Linden did that.
[11:38]	Opensource Obscure:	http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/1392 - http://www.nabble.com/The-LSL-Guide-Is-Dead-td20231831.html
[11:38]	xstorm Radek:	:-S
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've still got an LSL Guide, but it might be from previous downloads
[11:38]	Opensource Obscure:	here's an out-of-date mirror http://www.caledonian.ac.uk/cuthere/lsl_guide.html
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	http://www.lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=HomePage <--- Best LSL guide
[11:38]	Opensource Obscure:	i never i used but i thought an 'official' documentation was cool to have.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so what are the main reasons for keeping L$0 transactions? I'll list your arguments in the discussion.
[11:39]	Opensource Obscure:	is it up-to-date, Kitto?
[11:39]	xstorm Radek:	yes it is
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	AFAIK
[11:39]	xstorm Radek:	yes please
[11:39]	Moon Metty:	what is the main reason for removing 0L$ transactions?
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	Let me check...
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Pay L$0 could be useful, if the Viewers could use them.
[11:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: token currency exchange to update virtual wallets with peer names
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	L$0 transactions are the *ONLY* way for residents to transfer ownership of in-situ content.
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Touch for instructions; Pay L$0 for gifts
[11:40]	xstorm Radek:	thats right
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Woops, I followed the wrong link. There is a long discussion ensuing in the comments.
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	Or is the proposal that it must be a L$1 transaction?
[11:40]	xstorm Radek:	*GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 23:53, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler'd like a Buy event, to help with accounting
[11:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: credit card companies already use token value charging to check that a card "works"
[11:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	So it's important for interop
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Here is the opening argument:
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	A L$0 payment isn't meaningful, and can only really tickle LSL bugs. For example, there is a common rental box that tells users to set the quarterly and annual rates to L$0 to "disable" them. You can guess what the buggy script does here.
[11:41]	xstorm Radek:	not true
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	i see it on account data
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	and account history
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	I can't seem to give you nothing, as a pay option, but I understand that's a Viewer Limitation. Could someone link that SVC to a New Feature for the Browser?
[11:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think it's totally meaningful. No less meaningful than two transactions for the same amount in opposite directions.
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	plus xstreet use it all the time
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	I do not recall ever seeing a LSL bug in 0$ transactions
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	I think scripts can currently send L$0, but the default SL viewer does not allow sending L$0... it just drops such transactions as no-ops (I believe).
[11:42]	xstorm Radek:	nope
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	Until it's cdocumented, it's a security issue, but sellers should already be examining whether the offering is sufficient
[11:43]	xstorm Radek:	no bug just bad programmers
[11:43]	Rex Cronon:	why is a issue?
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	A L$0 transaction is a 'free gift' - theres no other way to make an automated free gift
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	Er - non-automated
[11:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	I don't see how x += L$0 can even generate a bug.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Cg Linden is campaigning that L$0 transactions should be allowed by the viewer. It should be opened as a supported feature.
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	Why is someone wasting valuable linden time trying to break a feature that works just fine?
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Here is another argument:
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	My argument against adding L$0 support to the viewer (instead of removing it from the server) would be that we encourage people to start habitually accepting whatever is set in a payment dialog. Ten L$0 requests followed by a L$100 is an easy trick.
	[ Show » ]
	Soft Linden added a comment - 2009/Mar/17 08:50 AM My argument against adding L$0 support to the viewer (instead of removing it from the server) would be that we encourage people to start habitually accepting whatever is set in a payment dialog. Ten L$0 requests followed by a L$100 is an easy trick.
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Never a shot wasted in target practice
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	oops
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	I forgot that copying from jira adds that hidden meta data.
[11:45]	Moon Metty:	heehee
[11:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: weak argument I think. It applies just as well to many L$1 payments, followwed by L$100
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Er - is this really about changing the mecanism for what makes the L$0 transaction (sim - v - viewer) ?
[11:46]	Opensource Obscure:	FWIW personally I think it's convincing
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, someone made that argument already, but really... you're much more likely to refuse a L$1 payment than a L$0 one.
[11:47]	xstorm Radek:	ok lets put another spin on it
[11:47]	xstorm Radek:	lets do away with all the free accounts
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	if somebody harases u with pyments u mute them:)
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	simple solution:)
[11:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	I don't like exceptions which are not obviously harmful, it's arbitrary. And L$0 is actually useful.
[11:48]	xstorm Radek:	the 0$L is in line of thinking as the free account system
[11:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well that is annoying. My new password works for logging into the world, but not the wiki. But my old password doesn't work either
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	simple logic solutions like that tend to be insufficient, in my experience
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	there are often corner cases that they cut out
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Er - is this really about changing the mecanism for what makes the L$0 transaction (sim - v - viewer) ?
[11:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	File a WEB Jira
[11:49]	xstorm Radek:	doing away with the $L0 is in turn doing away with the free account system
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, could you elaborate on that question? Or rephrase it? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.
[11:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I agree, remove corner cases wherever possible. I.e make L$0 a normal currency value, everywhere, no exceptions.
[11:50]	Twisted Laws:	i think 0 payments should be automatic by viewer
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	In this discussion about L$0 transactions - there have been mentions of 'doing it in the viewer'... which seems to imply someone really want to move the op from the Sim to the viewer
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Would that e in lne with P2P? It might be part of the commercial algorhythm lab
[11:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	The only problem here seems to be that one viewer has a special case programmed in, totally inappropriately.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	No, we wouldn't move the code that authenticates the money transactions to the viewer. I don't think this is about that.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	However, we are working on moving most (all?) money transactions out of the simulator and into some distributed web services.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I
[11:51]	Twisted Laws:	i mean it just doesn't show the dialog
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	I've mentioned that project in the past. Internally it is called "Rad Chilies"
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	So - give the usefulness of L$0 sales - why does someone want to disable them?
[11:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	let me get this straight. somebody made a borked script, and now to fix it u have to remvoe 0L$ transactions. lol
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Only for those reasons I posted. I was just curious to see what you all throught.
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	ok the web billing systems is still not that good
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	My guess is that eliminating L$0 transactions will not fly... there is already content that relies on it.
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	i hate to think of all the new errors that will happen
[11:53]	Kitto Flora:	Those reasons make no sense to me. The ability to transfer content inworld as a free gift makes huge sense.
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	true
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	er... by web services I mean a REST-ful protocol that goes over HTTP or something, rather than our legacy UDP messages that the simulator speaks
[11:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	It won't work for interop either. Interop viewers will certainly remove any special cases like that and treat a currency value of 0 as normal, is my guess.
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Huh?
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	no i hope HTTPS
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	REST is some category of protocols that have certain qualities. I forget what it stands for.
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	not HTTP
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Do transactions use UDP?
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, HTTPS sorry.
[11:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Representational State Transfer
[11:54]	xstorm Radek:	there is no safe way over a HTTP system
[11:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	plain ole webpage-like transactions = REST
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to leave at 12:00, since I have a meeting that follows this one.
[11:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	xstorm: yeah, it's HTTPS
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Anyone have last minute questions or issues they've been saving up?
[11:55]	Opensource Obscure:	are questions about Camera in-topic here? I'd like a comment about http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11781 - request of new feature - option to center the draw distance around the camera, not the avatar
[11:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	The camera's a mess. I think I'll work on that in Imprudence.
[11:56]	Opensource Obscure:	oo
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	I think VWR-11781 is more to do with what we call the "interestlist"
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Please think about ability to add groups to a parcel as 'allowed' objects - that would fix the linden encroachment problem, and also the problems residents get with vehicles.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	which is the logic on the simulator that figures out what info to send
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	the viewer far-clip already follows the camera
[11:57]	Twisted Laws:	changing to camera would introduce all sorts of permissions wars, i think
[11:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Too many things coupled together in the camera behaviour, that need factoring out and separately enabling. And the code as a bunch of annoying free camera reset in it, legacy stuff.
[11:57]	Opensource Obscure:	A problem I found is that if I want to see a whole region with the Flycam, I have to move around my avatar too, because Draw Distance starts from the avatar's position - not the camera's one .. apparently
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is Interest List in the Wiki?
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	but if you wander far from your avatar the interestlist doesn't necessarily adjust for relative visibility
[11:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's a page for it, but its pretty much blank
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	no Arawn, the interestlist is some pretty old internal code in the server
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler might even have stubbed it
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	Open: Advanced/ Dsable Camera Constraints
[11:58]	Opensource Obscure:	'the interestlist doesn't necessarily adjust for relative visibility' -> and do you think this could be changed/improved with a reasonable amount of work?
[11:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	More controls are needed too, there's no way of using a camera pivot with it moving the center of the screen with it. Pile of things
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... draw distance could be changed... it should follow the camera I think
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	but I would guess that the simulator might not send data that is far away from your avatar.
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Extenmsible Draw Distance?
[11:59]	Opensource Obscure:	no kitto , I already disabled constraints, the problems is objects disappear if you 'fix' the camera and then move your avatar far away
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	moving the cam to far from your av may unlink you from your Av and may maker errors
[11:59]	Opensource Obscure:	i'm going to make a video about this
[11:59]	Moon Metty:	only in the Z direction drawdistance is used
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	(In any case, the topic is certainly within the range of what we cover here)
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	Open: OK ... true
[11:59]	xstorm Radek:	this can even make ghosting
[11:59]	Moon Metty:	foe smaller objects
[11:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Follow another big issue. Really the viewer lags badly in that area. EverQuest's viewer had 5 different camera modes 10 years ago.
[11:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Follow is*
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Please think about ability to add groups to a parcel as 'allowed' objects - that would fix the linden encroachment problem, and also the problems residents get with vehicles.
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Groups as allowed objects?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not sure I understand what you mean Kitto.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Do you have a jira proposal somewhere?
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Or perhaps you can send me an email with more details. I've got to run.
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Parcels are in one group
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Andrew
[12:01]	Opensource Obscure:	thanks Andrew and Simon
[12:01]	Opensource Obscure:	bye all
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:01]	xstorm Radek:	i must go too
[12:01]	Moon Metty:	see you soon Andrew!
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Well - whenever you want it explained...
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	bye e3verybody
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	See you Simon