Bug triage/2007-10-02/Transcript

Agenda

[10:00] Benjamin Linden: morning folks
[10:00] Daedalus Young: hi Torley
[10:00] Squirrel Wood: Hollas ^^
[10:00] Daedalus Young: Torley*
[10:00] WarKirby Magojiro: very unusual look indeed
[10:00] Benjamin Linden: hey Torley, glad you could make it!
[10:00] Daedalus Young: hi Benjamin
[10:00] Torley Linden: Glad I could make it too!
[10:00] Daedalus Young: had a good time?
[10:01] Benjamin Linden: how's everyone doing?
[10:01] Torley Linden: I sure did have a lovely vacation.
[10:01] Torley Linden: Thanks for asking.
[10:01] WarKirby Magojiro: we really need more seats here
[10:01] Daedalus Young: very good
[10:01] Benjamin Linden: Glad to hear Torley. Did you go somewhere interesting?
[10:01] Torley Linden: is trying out the new WindLight build, so much to catch up on!
[10:01] Benjamin Linden: I just got back from Hawaii myself.
[10:01] Torley Linden: Ben, yeah, Whidbey Island, not too far from Seattle... hehe. :)
[10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: get any new Windlight pictures?
[10:01] Squirrel Wood: We have been waiting here all last week and the weekend... so we're quite starved ;)
[10:01] Torley Linden: I'm going to be taking more WindLight pix over the next stretch of days... haha!
[10:01] Benjamin Linden: *thinks Torley just likes to make the Residents jealous about Windlight :-)
[10:01] Torley Linden: The work continues!
[10:02] Gigs Taggart: torley: reflectey
[10:02] Torley Linden: Oh I will be SO happy when WL is in public First Look again.
[10:02] Torley Linden: And yeah the reflective water is uber-nice. Has a framerate hit but is really pretty.
[10:02] Benjamin Linden: Gigs thanks SO MUCH for your help with the UI agenda!!
[10:02] Gigs Taggart: np, half the issues on it are mine anyway :P
[10:02] Tillie Ariantho: how often will it be in First Look again? .P
[10:02] Tillie Ariantho: Any more 'tries'?
[10:02] Benjamin Linden: that's cool, Gigs. you have no idea what a relief it was to have the agenda in good shape this morning.
[10:02] Torley Linden: Tillie: It was only in First Look once thus far.
[10:03] Torley Linden: Oh rock on I gotta see the UI Agenda!
[10:03] Benjamin Linden: I'm in the SF office this week and things are always so busy when I'm here.
[10:03] Tillie Ariantho: yes
[10:03] Gigs Taggart: cool
[10:03] Benjamin Linden: [1]
[10:03] Benjamin Linden: ok let's go ahead and jump in
[10:03] Squirrel Wood: Ooo! I see my 632 in there ^^
[10:03] Benjamin Linden: I'm laughing at Tillie riding the Urler
[10:04] WarKirby Magojiro: gave you Jira URL-er v1.2.
[10:04] Tillie Ariantho: There are NO SEATS! .P
[10:04] Benjamin Linden: thanks WarKirby, there's already one of your urlers on the ground
[10:04] Benjamin Linden: sorry about the lack of seats, I ran out of prims on my land :-)
[10:04] WarKirby Magojiro: yes, that's n old version
[10:04] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[10:04] Gigs Taggart: set the prim bonus and steal from your neighbors :)
[10:04] Torley Linden: Haha, crafty. ;p
[10:04] Squirrel Wood: Hello Aric
[10:04] Aric Linden: g
[10:04] Gigs Taggart: hi Aric
[10:05] Aric Linden: g'morning all
[10:05] Aric Linden: smiles
[10:05] Daedalus Young: parcel supports 2343 prims, prims on parcel: 932, surely you have space for more seats
[10:05] Torley Linden: Heyhey Aric!
[10:05] Aric Linden: Heya Torley, Welcome Back!!!
[10:05] Torley Linden: Thanks a lot!
[10:05] Tillie Ariantho: Must be some for us invisible Linden prims. .)
[10:05] Aric Linden: We missed you
[10:05] Torley Linden: Aw. =)
[10:05] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin I'd like to ask about the classifieds ads annoyances if I may
[10:05] Benjamin Linden: apparently this fancy new urler from WarKirby will allow anyone to control it
[10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: torley is feeling conservative today
[10:06] Benjamin Linden: hi Prok, thanks for coming to the UI Bug Triage
[10:06] Torley Linden: I'm in a "classic" phase after seeing Harrison Ford in Blade Runner AND Indiana Jones.
[10:06] Benjamin Linden: this hour is dedicated to the UI agenda
[10:06] Benjamin Linden: [2]
[10:06] Prokofy Neva: well this is something that people believe is not a bug, it's been closed as a bug but it is not a feature
[10:06] Benjamin Linden: Thursdays office hour is open discussion
[10:06] Prokofy Neva: well this is a UI issue, like it says on the can
[10:06] Benjamin Linden: if you have a bug you'd like to discuss, please add it to the agenda, Prok
[10:06] Gigs Taggart: Prok the first bug on the agenda fixes something you reported. :)
[10:07] Prokofy Neva: So the triaging of bugs is decided by you dozen or so people each week?
[10:07] Gigs Taggart: you are more than welcome to help!
[10:07] Prokofy Neva: or does some supervisor review it, or how does that work
[10:07] Squirrel Wood: Prokofy, while you're here you may want to vote for https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-713 - After all it will benefit you too.
[10:07] Prokofy Neva: No, I hardly imagine it will Squirrel
[10:07] Torley Linden: OK sounds like a good idea to get moving on our agenda.
[10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: since we are the ones who show up each week and contribute to the wiki each week...
[10:08] Daedalus Young: every Resident can edit the agenda
[10:08] Saijanai Kuhn: how could it be otherwise? You can't set the agenda if you don't contribute
[10:08] Prokofy Neva: yes so people who "show up" who have no jobs or commitments during business hours U.S> time can't get to decide what to triage, I hear you
[10:08] Benjamin Linden: Prok, we review bugs here to decide if we should import them
[10:08] Squirrel Wood: Apparently your answer shows that you don't even bother to look at it.
[10:08] Prokofy Neva: Because that's not how real life works?
[10:08] Torley Linden: I suggest we get started, time's a-tickin'! :)
[10:08] Benjamin Linden: once the bugs are imported there is an internal review process for assigning and tracking them
[10:08] Benjamin Linden: let's go ahead and start with the first issue
[10:08] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-442
[10:08] Gigs Taggart: First issue was reported to me by prok, it's straight forward warning box when inviting a new owner to a group, since it's not revokable
[10:09] Prokofy Neva: I'm glad to hear there is an internal review process, but BEnjamin, what impacts people isn't always somthing they can articulate a) in an office hour b) in a complex JIRA report so what efforts are being made to outreach and do proactive assessment
[10:09] Prokofy Neva: no need to answer that, just a question
[10:09] Gigs Taggart: screen shot is attached
[10:09] Torley Linden: *looks at screenshot in SL-442*
[10:09] WarKirby Magojiro: looks like a warning really should be here
[10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks that Prokofy needs to learn to read. The agenda is set by those who read teh agenda and contribute to the agenda wiki
[10:09] Benjamin Linden: Is it true that the action is permanent?
[10:09] Tillie Ariantho: yes
[10:09] Daedalus Young: looks good to me, if the patch is all good
[10:09] Torley Linden: Thanks for helping with this, Gigs!
[10:09] Gigs Taggart: yes, you can't kick them out, they can leave voluntarily though
[10:10] Gigs Taggart: it's permanant enough I'd say
[10:10] Torley Linden: Just a couple things: we've had inconsistent capitalization of the word "owner" in regards to groups but it isn't a big. And (2) it should be "permanent", not "permanant".
[10:10] Gigs Taggart: haha good catch torley
[10:10] Gigs Taggart: I always misspell that word
[10:10] Benjamin Linden: This looks good to me, besides the points Torley raises
[10:10] Gigs Taggart: yeah the verbiage could be adjusted
[10:10] Torley Linden: Perhaps "This action can't be undone!" ?
[10:11] Benjamin Linden: I think Undone is more consistent with our other wording
[10:11] Benjamin Linden: besides, technically the person can leave
[10:11] Torley Linden: Yes, I think so too.
[10:11] Gigs Taggart: I had a hard time coming up with what to say there, so feel free to change the wording
[10:11] Gigs Taggart: it uses the XUI so it's an easy enough non-code adjustment
[10:11] Torley Linden: No worries, your initiative in getting this far is appreciated, Gigs! =o)
[10:11] Prokofy Neva: No I don't need to read, I need to undersatnd why SL is run by little cabals like this, but that's a separate larger meta issue : )
[10:11] Benjamin Linden: Gigs, do you mind if we import this and tweak the language internally?
[10:11] Gigs Taggart: no please do
[10:12] WarKirby Magojiro: This "cabal" is open to all
[10:12] Daedalus Young: that's for the communication department to check out
[10:12] Benjamin Linden: Prok, everyone is welcome to join the in-world triages and edit the agenda -- I hope you continue to join us!
[10:12] Prokofy Neva: I didn't realize we had started resident governance by mini-cabal on Tuesday mornings, Torley, you ddin't warn us!
[10:12] WarKirby Magojiro: and led and moderated by multiple lindens at any gien time
[10:12] Prokofy Neva: thank God we still have Lindens at least nominally in charge
[10:12] Benjamin Linden: there have been a number of blog posts about the in-world triages
[10:12] Torley Linden: Prokofy: I've made multiple postings about our office hours and triages before on the blog, wiki, and other places — feel free to help get the word out.
[10:12] Torley Linden: More awareness and attendance IS appreciated. =o)
[10:12] Benjamin Linden: ok next up
[10:12] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2331
[10:13] Tillie Ariantho: Prokofy, anything to say? If not, I would say: "Shut up!"
[10:13] Prokofy Neva: I've read them, and there is still a fundamental flaw with *lack of participation and knnowledge and easy ways to participate* Torley as you can see by the slim turnout of regulars
[10:13] Torley Linden: I'll edit the agenda...
[10:13] Daedalus Young: I always try to announce the triages in the JIRA group too
[10:13] Benjamin Linden: ok folks let's try to keep things civil
[10:13] Prokofy Neva: I'd say that sentiment is mutual Tilie
[10:13] WarKirby Magojiro: This is not governance
[10:13] Benjamin Linden: Torley I can edit the agenda if you want to keep up with Jira
[10:13] Benjamin Linden: either way is fine
[10:13] WarKirby Magojiro: this is fixing technical issues
[10:13] Daedalus Young: 2331 looks good too
[10:13] WarKirby Magojiro: oh, terraform strength. wonderful
[10:13] Aric Linden: It looks great to me
[10:13] WarKirby Magojiro: we certainly could do with this
[10:13] Gigs Taggart: If anyone has any questions about 2331 let me know.
[10:13] Wyn Galbraith: Good morning all from Ocean Shores WA USA
[10:14] WarKirby Magojiro: But Gigs
[10:14] Prokofy Neva: of course it's goverance if a tiny group of people get to decide what to triage "just because," it's only fake open and that's why I'm here: to inquire about what to do when someone unilateralyl shuts down your bug report and declares it "not a bug"
[10:14] WarKirby Magojiro: I notice it says the lowest setting
[10:14] Benjamin Linden: someone pointed this one out to me last week, Gigs, very cool
[10:14] WarKirby Magojiro: is about half of the current
[10:14] Gigs Taggart: war, correct
[10:14] WarKirby Magojiro: do you think that's precise enough?
[10:14] Tillie Ariantho: clicks the mute button
[10:14] Gigs Taggart: warkirby the default is pretty weak
[10:14] WarKirby Magojiro: You're Free to reopen any closed bug
[10:14] Gigs Taggart: half of the default is pretty precise
[10:14] Benjamin Linden: Prok, you can add a bug you'd like to discuss to the agenda and we will talk about it here
[10:15] Torley Linden: Ooh, variable strength? Cool.
[10:15] Gigs Taggart: also
[10:15] WarKirby Magojiro: The agenda is set by filters, usually
[10:15] WarKirby Magojiro: oldest unimported, or most voted for
[10:15] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin, I suggested already: classifieds annoyance of asking to save on each classified due to any change to one -- and this is declared "not a bug" but I reopened it
[10:15] Gigs Taggart: the range of the strength of this patch can be set entirely in XUI also
[10:15] Prokofy Neva: so please add it if you may
[10:15] Gigs Taggart: so you can change the stregth range without compiling if you like :)
[10:15] Benjamin Linden: one thing about the teraforming dialog I've never liked is that the combobox for setting the size of the tool isn't labeled
[10:15] WarKirby Magojiro: that certainly is a bug, and a fix is planned for the next viewer
[10:15] Torley Linden: Benjamin and I earlier mentioned this Land section could use some other re-arrangements.
[10:16] Gigs Taggart: prok IM me the bug number, please lets stay on the agenda here
[10:16] Benjamin Linden: Prok, please add your bug to the agenda on the wiki so we can discuss it
[10:16] Gigs Taggart: or that
[10:16] Gigs Taggart: Benjamin it's getting kinda crowded, if you can find room for a label on brush size more power to you :)
[10:16] Gigs Taggart: I had a hard time fitting this in
[10:17] Benjamin Linden: Gigs, will the default setting be set to behave the way it currently does?
[10:17] Gigs Taggart: benjamin yes
[10:17] WarKirby Magojiro: there#'s plenty of space
[10:17] Torley Linden: Yeah Gigs, I was thinking about a helpful visual aid like an icon... and where along the slider is the default setting?
[10:17] Benjamin Linden: ok in that case I say let's go ahead and import this one. seems like a useful tool to me
[10:17] WarKirby Magojiro: the three options on the right could be moved down
[10:17] Gigs Taggart: torley the default is on the lower end
[10:17] Benjamin Linden: that's a good idea torley
[10:17] Gigs Taggart: torley because the default right now is pretty weak
[10:17] Benjamin Linden: we don't have a convention for doing that currently
[10:18] Benjamin Linden: Gigs, is this slider incremental or is it exponential and/or logrithmic
[10:18] Torley Linden: Oh good question Ben.
[10:18] Gigs Taggart: linear
[10:18] Benjamin Linden: ok, we are not very consistent about that unfortunately
[10:18] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin, the Bug is alredy added, was weeks ago
[10:19] WarKirby Magojiro: can the higest setting make mountains in seconds?
[10:19] Gigs Taggart: actually making it logrithmic might be a good idea
[10:19] Benjamin Linden: the volume sliders aren't linear currently
[10:19] Gigs Taggart: warkirby yes
[10:19] WarKirby Magojiro: excellent
[10:19] Gigs Taggart: making it log just so the default is closer to the middle might be a good idea
[10:19] Torley Linden: Pretty kewl feature to add.
[10:19] Benjamin Linden: that sounds right Gigs
[10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: or providing a check box to switch modes for the slider...
[10:19] Gigs Taggart: but you all can do that when you apply it right? :)
[10:19] Benjamin Linden: I'm not sure non-linear sliders are a good idea in general but since that seems to be what we already support
[10:20] Gigs Taggart: yeah
[10:20] Benjamin Linden: that's fine, Gigs, we can make that tweak internally
[10:20] Gigs Taggart: well sound volume is log by tradition
[10:20] Gigs Taggart: because human ear is nonlinear
[10:20] Benjamin Linden: it will be a good time to discuss the linear/non-linear issue
[10:20] Benjamin Linden: ah I didn't know that Gigs
[10:20] Saijanai Kuhn: perceputally it is linear
[10:20] Gigs Taggart: yeah log volume = linear perception
[10:20] Benjamin Linden: interesting!
[10:20] Gigs Taggart: so it might not be as inconsistant
[10:20] Torley Linden: Gains of +6 dB double volume.
[10:20] Benjamin Linden: let's leave it how it is for now
[10:21] Aric Linden: shall we move on?
[10:21] Daedalus Young: 6 dB doubles electronically, in pure sound it's 3 dB :)
[10:21] Torley Linden: Senses!
[10:21] Gigs Taggart: torley hehe
[10:21] Torley Linden: OK, import VWR-2331 and move on?
[10:21] Saijanai Kuhn: favors mode-switching for that slider (since its his idea)
[10:21] Benjamin Linden: yep!
[10:21] Torley Linden: Done.
[10:22] Benjamin Linden: I got the wiki, Torley
[10:22] Benjamin Linden: thanks!
[10:22] Torley Linden: Thanks Ben!
[10:22] WarKirby Magojiro: wait. Are you saying remove the brush size selection?
[10:22] Prokofy Neva: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1627
[10:22] Benjamin Linden: no Warkirby
[10:22] Benjamin Linden: just import this new tools
[10:22] WarKirby Magojiro: oki
[10:23] Benjamin Linden: ok next issue on the agenda is
[10:23] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2491
[10:23] Benjamin Linden: oh my god, this one is so exciting!
[10:23] Benjamin Linden: I take snapshots at every office hours and I already have like a half gig of snapshots
[10:23] Tillie Ariantho: yes =)
[10:24] Torley Linden: BIG SMILE for VWR-2491!
[10:24] Benjamin Linden: because bmps are so big!
[10:24] WarKirby Magojiro: ??
[10:24] Tillie Ariantho: 5mb for me
[10:24] Squirrel Wood: import ^^
[10:24] Jira URL-er: v1.2: Invalid format
[10:24] Torley Linden: Yeah, I generally have been batch-compressing as PNG later (via Photoshop) but to save in PNG from the getgo would be GREAT.
[10:24] Gigs Taggart: PNG is about 1mb
[10:24] WarKirby Magojiro: ohh
[10:24] Benjamin Linden: agreed
[10:24] Gigs Taggart: vs BMP 5mb
[10:24] Torley Linden: Haha, "ZOMG" on the screenshot.
[10:24] Prokofy Neva: yes the forums used to insist you take jpegs, and I always thought it was odd that the same forums attached to SL that makes you use jpegs and can't take bmps from the game itself
[10:24] WarKirby Magojiro: I've had a problem with this for a while
[10:24] Daedalus Young: I've seen a request for when using png, having sky and ground/water if wanted act as transparent
[10:24] WarKirby Magojiro: ability to save as PNG is essential
[10:25] Prokofy Neva: ave as jpeg would be much more useful in the real world
[10:25] Prokofy Neva: on the Internet
[10:25] WarKirby Magojiro: agrees
[10:25] Benjamin Linden: you know this is so strange that we have an image quality slider but no way to save jpgs
[10:25] Torley Linden: I know currently we can do Client menu > Compress Snapshots to Disk but that's JPG2000.
[10:25] WarKirby Magojiro: jpeg should probably be the defaultm too
[10:25] Benjamin Linden: what on earth is that slider for?
[10:25] Gigs Taggart: there is one little thing to look at on 2491, I'm redoing the snapshot on combo commit, which causes a little UI lag when changing formats, if they have auto-snapshot enabled.
[10:25] Torley Linden: Yeah Ben, it's odd that the image quality slider only currently applies to sending out postcards.
[10:25] Benjamin Linden: I was thinking that jpg is probably a better default format as well
[10:25] Daedalus Young: yes, but if you want to edit your Snaps before putting tem online, png is the better option, as it's lossless
[10:25] Prokofy Neva: then you could have applications that help arrange snapshots, order them, put them with captions, upload them as comic strips or sequential demonstrations, etc.
[10:26] Torley Linden: I use PNG extensively.
[10:26] Benjamin Linden: hmm good point Daedalus
[10:26] Savannah Glimmer: I use PNG also
[10:26] Benjamin Linden: can it remember the last-used setting?
[10:26] Gigs Taggart: don't worry about it guys
[10:26] Gigs Taggart: it does remember last used
[10:26] Prokofy Neva: blogs and things like facebook or whatever accept jpg; the SL forums themselves only accept jpeg
[10:26] Gigs Taggart: ALSO
[10:26] Benjamin Linden: excellent!
[10:26] WarKirby Magojiro: excelltn
[10:26] Gigs Taggart: ctrl-` uses your last used
[10:26] Torley Linden: BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!
[10:26] Gigs Taggart: so you are set
[10:26] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[10:26] Benjamin Linden: lol
[10:26] Torley Linden: Sweet, Gigs!
[10:26] Gigs Taggart: so really the default doesn't matter so much :)
[10:26] Torley Linden: Yeah, I tend to be addicted to taking snapshots of Second Life... this'll really come in handy from my perspective.
[10:26] Savannah Glimmer: WTG Gigs!
[10:26] Daedalus Young: that's cool then
[10:27] Benjamin Linden: oh cool, so ctrl` automatically takes a picture and saves?
[10:27] Gigs Taggart: yeah
[10:27] Benjamin Linden: wow, that's awesome!
[10:27] Gigs Taggart: in the last selected format
[10:27] Torley Linden: Yeah Ben, File menu > Snapshot to Disk.
[10:27] WarKirby Magojiro: excellent
[10:27] WarKirby Magojiro: import, then
[10:27] WarKirby Magojiro: ?
[10:27] Benjamin Linden: yes! by all means import!
[10:27] Daedalus Young: and last used settings, also captures UI if you want
[10:27] Torley Linden: IMPORTED!!!!
[10:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Torley always wants those UI windows in his scenes
[10:27] Daedalus Young: Client > High-Res Snapshots also doubles your size
[10:27] TerrainHUD: Hello,: Avatar!
[10:27] Gigs Taggart: yeah it remembers format and whether you want UI in it when you use ctrl-`, all other settings are bypassed though.
[10:27] Gigs Taggart: which is the way it was
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: very cool Gigs
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: ok next up
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1677
[10:28] Gigs Taggart: we skipped one benjamin
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: oh whoops sorry
[10:28] Gigs Taggart: oh looks like that one is already imported anyway
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1484
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: that one?
[10:28] Gigs Taggart: yeah
[10:28] Benjamin Linden: oh yeah I like that one
[10:29] Gigs Taggart: looks like it's already imported so we may not need to talk about it much
[10:29] Benjamin Linden: let's just take a quick look at it
[10:29] Torley Linden: Gigs is patchin' fantastically.
[10:29] Benjamin Linden: no kidding
[10:29] Daedalus Young: that would be geat
[10:29] Gigs Taggart: hehe
[10:29] Daedalus Young: great
[10:29] WarKirby Magojiro: as visible in that comment, it works with my current Nicholaz version
[10:29] Gigs Taggart: cool war
[10:29] Torley Linden: Oh dang... it looks like something broke with the PJIRA importer, internal issues no longer map to their PJIRA counterparts. *makes a note to let Rob know*
[10:29] Daedalus Young: I always yell something in IM when the other has just gone offline
[10:30] Gigs Taggart: the only potential user hiccup with 1484 is that the notications cause a window manager alert if it's minimized
[10:30] Benjamin Linden: Gigs, what does it actually say in the window?
[10:30] Benjamin Linden: when someone's status changes?
[10:30] Gigs Taggart: same as chat history
[10:30] Gigs Taggart: etc
[10:30] Benjamin Linden: cool
[10:30] Benjamin Linden: looks good to me
[10:31] Benjamin Linden: ok last patch for today
[10:31] WarKirby Magojiro: indeed. wonderful little feature
[10:31] Prokofy Neva: Is there a reason why you can't have "My Issues" be a function on the JIRA that instantly pulls up all the bugs and issues you filed and all your contributions, so that you don't hunt all over hell's half acre for a bug whose number you can't remember?
[10:31] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1677
[10:31] Benjamin Linden: so excited about all these patches!
[10:31] Gigs Taggart: Prok: Profile, All Reported
[10:31] Benjamin Linden: it's been a while since we've had any
[10:31] WarKirby Magojiro: There is, Prokofy
[10:31] WarKirby Magojiro: on the homepage. A box in the bottom right
[10:31] WarKirby Magojiro: ujpdated issues I've reported
[10:31] Torley Linden: Thanks for filling that info WarKirby and Gigs.
[10:31] Torley Linden: (I'm encouraged to do Issue Tracker tutorials in the future...)
[10:31] Gigs Taggart: 1677 came up in general triage
[10:32] Gigs Taggart: we weren't sure about it
[10:32] Gigs Taggart: so it got thrown here
[10:32] Prokofy Neva: Gigs, if "profile/all reported" was as intuitive as you say, it would be easily discovered; it's not. Most interfaces say MY ACCOUNT or something like that.
[10:32] Gigs Taggart: Prok, well, blame Atlassian
[10:33] Benjamin Linden: this is good discussion, we haven't paid as much attention to the keyboard shortcuts as we need to
[10:33] WarKirby Magojiro: I agree, it's not as intuitive as it could be
[10:33] Torley Linden: Subleties like this can really trip up casual usage.
[10:33] Frasha Boa: hello there
[10:33] Benjamin Linden: I agree
[10:33] Prokofy Neva: Gigs, that's not the attitude to take, Atlassian works on the same idiot principle as the SL version of the Jira: if someone posts an issue or bug, and it has enough people, and it is triaged, it too, can be "looked at" by the game gods at Atlassian, so that could be done
[10:33] Torley Linden: Heya Frasha, welcome to our User Interface bug triage!
[10:33] Gigs Taggart: the Ctrl-T thing is easily reproduced, there was a question about whether the current behavior is relied on or not.
[10:33] Frasha Boa: :)
[10:34] Mercia McMahon: Prok you have a fairly unique name sign your contributions and you can make your own filter of Prok's Comments
[10:34] Frasha Boa: thanks
[10:34] WarKirby Magojiro: Atlassian has it';s own jira, I think
[10:34] WarKirby Magojiro: for issues about... jira
[10:34] Si Arcadia: Oh, I could speak as a ( Mac ) user
[10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: raises hand
[10:34] Saijanai Kuhn: <= Mac user
[10:34] Si Arcadia: + sourit jusqu'aux oreilles + * smiles up to ears *
[10:34] Benjamin Linden: my understanding is that Ctrl-T was supposed to toggle the communicate window
[10:34] Daedalus Young: <= too
[10:34] Prokofy Neva: noting again that I add 1627 to the agenda
[10:35] Gigs Taggart: benajin that's what it does now, it toggles the window, whether it has focus or not
[10:35] Benjamin Linden: how about we look at that next Prok
[10:35] Benjamin Linden: and what is the expected behavior, Gigs?
[10:35] Gigs Taggart: this patch makes it NOT toggle the window if it doesn't have focus
[10:35] Wyn Galbraith: Sneaks in to Promotes two issues of her own for comments etc; https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2366 & https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-631 before she runs out in RL for competition.
[10:35] Benjamin Linden: Office Kiosk: Thanks for visiting!
[10:35] Si Arcadia: The sound beacon doesn't seem to work in mac since many versions now
[10:35] Saijanai Kuhn: GL there Wyn
[10:35] Gigs Taggart: the expected according to this bug is ctrl-t brings focus to the communicate window
[10:35] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Sai!
[10:35] Gigs Taggart: if it doesn't have focus
[10:36] Gigs Taggart: then hitting it again will close it
[10:36] Benjamin Linden: I see
[10:36] Daedalus Young: oh, Sound beacon works for me in the RC
[10:36] Benjamin Linden: do the other keyboard shortcuts work that way?
[10:36] Torley Linden: Si: I know there's a bug with the sound source highlights not showing up, but I haven't noticed a prob with the beacon — by all means please file a new issue on the Issue Tracker and hopefully we can check it out on other platforms too.
[10:36] Gigs Taggart: benjamin no clue :)
[10:36] Benjamin Linden: Ctrl-F for example toggles the window no matter what
[10:36] Gigs Taggart: yeah
[10:37] Gigs Taggart: quick testing shows this patch makes the behavior inconsistant
[10:37] Si Arcadia: Great, thanks! ( Sorry, I am not aware of the chat process here )
[10:37] Torley Linden: Yeah, and just double-pressing Ctrl-T will toggle that window too.
[10:37] Benjamin Linden: it sounds like the need is a way to quickly move focus back to the communicate window, is that right?
[10:37] Torley Linden: No worries Si, and are you sure it's the *beacon*, not the *highlight*? Details always appreciated. =o)
[10:37] Gigs Taggart: benjamin well a bigger issue is that the hotkeys maybe should focus when not focused instead of a toggle
[10:37] Tillie Ariantho: But it is different from how Ctrl-F works.
[10:38] Gigs Taggart: maybe they should all be changed to what this issue asks for
[10:38] Benjamin Linden: I'm a bit confused about the additional details around switching tabs *inside* the window
[10:38] Benjamin Linden: and moving focus to the chat bar
[10:38] Benjamin Linden: there are lots of edge cases here
[10:38] WarKirby Magojiro: just uses the mouse for most things by default
[10:39] Si Arcadia: Edit, view, beacons, sound source ( I used to get a yellow target for the sounds, no more since many versions now )
[10:39] Benjamin Linden: is there currently a way to move focus to a different window using the keyboard?
[10:39] Torley Linden: Thanks Si.
[10:39] Gigs Taggart: torley ctrl-tab
[10:39] Torley Linden: Ben, Ctrl-Alt-Tab.
[10:39] Daedalus Young: Ctrl-N may toggle your beacons :)
[10:39] Benjamin Linden: good lord
[10:39] Torley Linden: Er, sorry, just Ctrl.
[10:42] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
[10:42] Connected undefined:
[10:43] WarKirby Magojiro: takes the opportunity to grab a different seat
[10:43] Benjamin Linden: darn sim crashes
[10:43] Daedalus Young: Havok4!
[10:44] Benjamin Linden: lol
[10:44] Benjamin Linden: haha we don't have havok4 yet
[10:44] Benjamin Linden: here
[10:44] Daedalus Young: on some Beta regions, I know
[10:44] Daedalus Young: I've seen it :)
[10:44] WarKirby Magojiro: I don't think that was much to do with physics
[10:44] Torley Linden: Welcome back folks, pardon about that.
[10:44] Daedalus Young: well, it all adds up, WK
[10:44] WarKirby Magojiro: I wonder if prokofy will be back
[10:44] Torley Linden: Oh whee, we've swapped chairs.
[10:45] Benjamin Linden: lol
[10:45] WarKirby Magojiro: he's pretending to mute me, it seems
[10:45] Tillie Ariantho: did we just crash?
[10:45] Benjamin Linden: it's musical chairs :-)
[10:45] Benjamin Linden: yes, we appear to have crashed
[10:45] Daedalus Young: you know how you can't mute Lindens?
[10:45] WarKirby Magojiro: he's already responded to something I said, so it';s clear he's bluffing
[10:45] Benjamin Linden: I've been blamed for crashing individuals but never an entire sim
[10:45] Daedalus Young: works the same when being Busy on receiving group IMs
[10:45] Tillie Ariantho: I have one question about crashes ... WHEN is the current location saved anywhere?
[10:45] Tillie Ariantho: I was some 45 here now and relog is done at home.
[10:45] Benjamin Linden: what do you mean Tillie?
[10:45] Benjamin Linden: oh I see
[10:46] Tillie Ariantho: Shouldnt be the location updated more often?
[10:46] Savannah Glimmer: It would be nice if we were warped to "home" as an option in Continue or Quit.
[10:46] Benjamin Linden: I think it's saved at logout
[10:46] Tillie Ariantho: That happens a lot.
[10:46] Daedalus Young: that was probably because the region was down
[10:46] Benjamin Linden: *if* you're still connected to the server
[10:46] Torley Linden: Tillie, if you want to change login location, try Preferences > General tab and change your Start Location.
[10:46] Gigs Taggart: Savannah that's hard because the region "owns" you
[10:46] Tillie Ariantho: Then it sucks as it is right now. .P
[10:46] Tillie Ariantho: Torley, I know that one.
[10:46] Gigs Taggart: Savannah, i.e. the region has all your state data :)
[10:46] WarKirby Magojiro: aqttachments don't get saved either
[10:46] Tillie Ariantho: But when it says "login to last location" and I get back in at home it is just lying to me. No?
[10:46] Savannah Glimmer: Can it put me back in the login queue so I can chose another region without going all the way out? Flipe me to Agent. lol
[10:46] Gigs Taggart: Tillie yeah, but you might lose stuff
[10:47] Savannah Glimmer: Flip*
[10:47] WarKirby Magojiro: so it's goofd to avoid editing things while still attached whenever possible
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: that was odd
[10:47] Gigs Taggart: tillie is like a little personal rollback to your avatar :)
[10:47] Tillie Ariantho: ;-/
[10:47] Benjamin Linden: ok so where were we
[10:47] Torley Linden: What's next on our agenda?
[10:47] Tillie Ariantho: So I have lost some memory... uh oh... alzheimer.
[10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: what was up with the sim crash
[10:47] Tillie Ariantho: ao on
[10:47] Benjamin Linden: we were discussing this
[10:47] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1677
[10:47] Squirrel Wood: /ao off
[10:47] Gigs Taggart: 1677 still eh
[10:47] Daedalus Young: well if a region is down, you can't log in on your 'previous location', so the viewer is not lying, just doesn't know
[10:48] Benjamin Linden: keyboard shortcuts for the communicate window
[10:48] Benjamin Linden: the last thing I said was that ctrl-tab seems like an easy way to move focus
[10:48] TerrainHUD: Hello,: Avatar!
[10:48] Savannah Glimmer: Does 1677 cover the same issue of having to toggle out of communicate or history to regain movement?
[10:48] Benjamin Linden: I think we should keep the other shortcuts to a toggle behavior
[10:48] Gigs Taggart: ctrl-tab isn't as nice as specific jumps though
[10:48] WarKirby Magojiro: yes. toggling is good
[10:48] Benjamin Linden: that's true Gigs
[10:48] Gigs Taggart: I do agree that this patch should not be taken as is
[10:48] Gigs Taggart: it should be all the floaters or none
[10:48] Benjamin Linden: but it's a trade-off between predictable behavior
[10:49] Gigs Taggart: lets resolve wontfix and say that it's either all or nothing?
[10:49] Benjamin Linden: you can just as easily hit the shortcut twice, right?
[10:49] Gigs Taggart: yeah
[10:49] WarKirby Magojiro: nods
[10:49] Benjamin Linden: ok, let's do as Gigs says
[10:49] Gigs Taggart: once people are trained to hit it twice it shouldn't matter too much :)
[10:49] Benjamin Linden: I think that sounds right
[10:50] Benjamin Linden: Torley, did you get that?
[10:50] Daedalus Young: sees a SL training center: Hit it twice! Good.
[10:50] Torley Linden: Yup!
[10:50] Benjamin Linden: ok I'll add a note to the wiki
[10:50] Torley Linden: *resolves*
[10:50] Prokofy Neva: how much more training do you think the average SL user should really have to keep absorbing?
[10:51] Savannah Glimmer: I'll make a training tutorial
[10:51] Benjamin Linden: Prok, did you add your bug to the agenda?
[10:51] Prokofy Neva: yes I did
[10:51] Prokofy Neva: 1627
[10:51] Benjamin Linden: hmm I'm not seeing it for some reason
[10:51] Benjamin Linden: whic section is it under?
[10:51] Tillie Ariantho: maybe wrong agenda?
[10:51] Benjamin Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Bug_triage/UI_Agenda
[10:51] Benjamin Linden: this is today's agenda
[10:52] WarKirby Magojiro: refreshes the agenda and can't see it
[10:52] Benjamin Linden: let's keep going for now
[10:52] Benjamin Linden: next up is
[10:52] Benjamin Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1726
[10:52] Prokofy Neva: crap
[10:52] Gigs Taggart: Prok I took care of it for you :)
[10:52] Gigs Taggart: it's up after 1726
[10:52] Prokofy Neva: when you say "add to the agenda" I thought you meant just type in the chat the VWR-1627 URl
[10:53] Prokofy Neva: not go to some website, tab out of SL, hunt for it, put it on the agenda, blah blah
[10:53] Prokofy Neva: whatever
[10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Benjamin likesw everything to be in order I guess.
[10:53] Daedalus Young: ahh, I have to be going... RL stuff, like... food
[10:53] Daedalus Young: see you guys later!
[10:53] Saijanai Kuhn: its on there now
[10:53] Prokofy Neva: thanks Gigs but truly, the game seems to be: let's put as many obstacles as possible in the way of simply and normally doing this
[10:53] WarKirby Magojiro: The agenda is a preconstructted wiki page that lists the issues for the current meeting
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: so lietrally everyone can be on the same page
[10:54] Gigs Taggart: prok protocols and order are not obstacles
[10:54] Gigs Taggart: if we don't get back on topic we won't have time for your bug
[10:54] WarKirby Magojiro: as to 17s6
[10:54] Gigs Taggart: so shhh :)
[10:54] Benjamin Linden: thanks for coming Daedalus
[10:54] Saijanai Kuhn: and it is there, so the issue is moot
[10:54] WarKirby Magojiro: I'd say this is expected behaviour, personally
[10:54] Gigs Taggart: VWR-1726 seems like a bug to me, but not a severe one
[10:54] WarKirby Magojiro: it focuses on your bounding box, yes ?
[10:55] Gigs Taggart: looks like the camera acts kinda wonky when your "Agent" and "Avatar" aren't in the same spot
[10:55] Benjamin Linden: sorry folks I was adding my notes for the last bug, let me get caught up
[10:55] WarKirby Magojiro: should the camera always point to the avatar?
[10:55] WarKirby Magojiro: I'm thinking not
[10:56] WarKirby Magojiro: that could cause some issues with animations
[10:56] WarKirby Magojiro: or, maybe
[10:56] Gigs Taggart: VWR-1726 has noncontroversial parts
[10:56] WarKirby Magojiro: an option
[10:56] WarKirby Magojiro: to choose which
[10:56] Gigs Taggart: the alt-up down is buggy
[10:56] Gigs Taggart: I say knock priority to small and import? What do you all think
[10:56] WarKirby Magojiro: oh, good point
[10:56] Benjamin Linden: I'm not sure I understand the issue
[10:56] WarKirby Magojiro: using alt up points to the av
[10:57] WarKirby Magojiro: oh, good point
[10:57] WarKirby Magojiro: oops
[10:57] Gigs Taggart: Benjamin it's a set of issues that happen to the camer when your "agent" and "avatar" are in two differnet places
[10:57] Gigs Taggart: like when an animation moves you
[10:57] Benjamin Linden: oh torley, this seems related to the issue we noted a few weeks ago where the "focal" point seems to be somewhere above the avatar
[10:57] Torley Linden: BRB
[10:57] Benjamin Linden: k
[10:57] WarKirby Magojiro: pointing to the avatar is more helpful, I suppose
[10:57] Benjamin Linden: yes I think it's fine to import this, I think we have a related bug we can link this to
[10:57] Gigs Taggart: cool
[10:58] Benjamin Linden: I believe there are some complications around this but we can at least provide some feedback on what the issues are
[10:58] Benjamin Linden: ok let's knock out one more
[10:58] Torley Linden: Ah yes I remember that one Ben.
[10:58] Benjamin Linden: Prok's bug!
[10:58] Gigs Taggart: Proks is next, be sure to reload :)
[10:58] Torley Linden: I'll look for it and link 'em up.
[10:58] Benjamin Linden: yeah!
[10:59] WarKirby Magojiro: hi there Ryozu. a little late, I see
[10:59] Gigs Taggart: Prok is this still related to "updating" the listing?
[10:59] Prokofy Neva: yes
[10:59] Jira URL-er: v1.2: Invalid format
[10:59] Gigs Taggart: ok
[10:59] Ryozu Kojima: Way late
[10:59] Ryozu Kojima: chuckles.
[10:59] Torley Linden: Issue Tracker is crawling on me...
[11:00] Prokofy Neva: updating should be kept, but SAVE CHANGES junked, it's not needed
[11:00] Benjamin Linden: I'm reading through this
[11:00] Benjamin Linden: Prok, can you briefly describe what's happening
[11:00] Benjamin Linden: is it throwing out the accumulated values when you update the ad?
[11:00] Gigs Taggart: Hamncheese's repro is no longer valid
[11:00] WarKirby Magojiro: I can confirm this
[11:01] Gigs Taggart: Warkirby can you post a new repro?
[11:01] WarKirby Magojiro: I had 600 teleports on my mzin classified when I last checked
[11:01] WarKirby Magojiro: now 240
[11:01] WarKirby Magojiro: I'm not sure exactly how to repro it
[11:01] WarKirby Magojiro: I'll look into it
[11:01] Prokofy Neva: I don't understand the reasoning for why you need to have a save changes UI at all, it's redundant
[11:01] Gigs Taggart: that's a good point
[11:01] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin here's the issue:
[11:02] Gigs Taggart: it should just update on UI commit
[11:02] Prokofy Neva: 1. It used to work a completely different way -- restore that way, it was simpler
[11:02] Prokofy Neva: 2. It now adds on a layer of confusing interfaces that ask to save changes
[11:02] Benjamin Linden: eek, does making one change cause you to confirm changes to every single classified?
[11:02] Prokofy Neva: 3. Save changes is REDUNDANT to "update" which already saves changes
[11:02] Prokofy Neva: 4. Save changes triggers a cascade on ALL ads, not just that ad actually changed
[11:02] WarKirby Magojiro: wow
[11:02] Prokofy Neva: 5. Hitting save changes doesn't stop the cascade
[11:02] Benjamin Linden: that is really bad
[11:02] WarKirby Magojiro: lots of problems
[11:02] Prokofy Neva: 6. the "save changes" in fact wipes out all the metrics, yes
[11:03] Prokofy Neva: so it's counterintutive
[11:03] WarKirby Magojiro: damn,
[11:03] Prokofy Neva: but when I posted this, i was told it was "lack of user knowledge"
[11:03] WarKirby Magojiro: I suggest importing immediately
[11:03] Benjamin Linden: it sounds like there might be some confusion around this because part of the original bug was fixed
[11:03] Prokofy Neva: the user must "just know" that they must NOT hit save change4s but hit "cancel" to preserve their metrics
[11:03] Gigs Taggart: yes hamncheese's repro part of it was fixed
[11:03] Benjamin Linden: but I agree this needs to be imported and investigated
[11:03] Gigs Taggart: the rest seems to be a problem
[11:03] Torley Linden: This was already imported before.
[11:03] Prokofy Neva: but why is the entire fandango of save changes/cancel changes even there? update automatically saves changes just on that ad; end of story, exit menu
[11:03] Benjamin Linden: unfortunately I'm not knowledgable enough about the classifieds system to provide a good answer today
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: we'll import this and find out what's going on
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin, make 3 classifieds yourself
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: I'm happy to pay you $150 to do that
[11:04] Torley Linden: It's currently assigned to Bridie internally but I'll put it in the Rx Triage queue.
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: run it and you'll see the huge annoyance
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: lol no Prok, it's my job
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: try changing your ads all day and be annoyed all day like we aer
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: try having 30 ads and facing that paralysis 200 times a day
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: then you'll get it
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: I already get paid to do this :-)
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: ok then make 10 ads to have the full face full of it
[11:04] Torley Linden: I've indeed run into this problem before too, very annoying!
[11:04] Benjamin Linden: torley can you import this and mark it for rx triage?
[11:04] Prokofy Neva: and try saving them with price changes or location changes 60 times a day
[11:05] Prokofy Neva: then you'll get it
[11:05] Gigs Taggart: torley can we associate this bug with the other one so that all the issues get fixed?
[11:05] Torley Linden: Already imported and marked, Ben. =)
[11:05] Torley Linden: Which "other one" Gigs?
[11:05] Prokofy Neva: not everybody has just one classified that stays static throughout the week
[11:05] Torley Linden: Go ahead and link if you see a related one please!
[11:05] Prokofy Neva: many businesses have multiple ads they change constantly because prices, locations, etc. change with different rental units, or with different products featured
[11:05] Benjamin Linden: thanks Torley
[11:05] Gigs Taggart: Torley when you said already imported... isn't the one that was imported before fixed?
[11:05] Benjamin Linden: did you import the previous bug too?
[11:06] Torley Linden: Which is the "previous bug" being referred to here? :)
[11:06] Wyn Galbraith: has to head out to the kite fields, "Wish me luck guys. Thanks for the meeting welcome back Torley."
[11:06] Prokofy Neva: if you pay for an ad something like $100 US, and the item sells, you want to have the use of that ad's life for the 5 or 3 remaining days by being able to change it as to content and location without this annoyance
[11:06] Torley Linden: Have a good one Wyn, take care and thanks!
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: sorry Torley: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1726
[11:06] Torley Linden: Good luck!
[11:06] Gigs Taggart: heh, well this bug was thought to be fixed, right?
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: thanks Wyn!
[11:06] Torley Linden: Ben: Yup, already imported that.
[11:06] WarKirby Magojiro: I'm testing it now
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: ok cool
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: ok folks we're out of time!
[11:06] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: thanks so much for coming today, great meeting
[11:06] Torley Linden: And how the hour has flown by...
[11:06] Torley Linden: thanks for being here with us. :)
[11:06] Benjamin Linden: and super huge thanks to Gigs for the AWESOME patches!!
[11:06] Savannah Glimmer: Have a great day : )
[11:06] Wyn Galbraith: is a novice so doesn't expect to win, just hopes she doesn't crash.
[11:06] Gigs Taggart: :)
[11:07] Benjamin Linden: hoping to have more next week :-)
[11:07] Torley Linden: Always more bugs and adversity to tackle.
[11:07] Torley Linden: The adventures never end. ;)

Bug triage/2007-10-02/Transcript

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