Mesh/Archive/2011-04-25
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Revision as of 12:07, 25 April 2011 by Charlar Linden (talk | contribs) (→Transcript for Monday April 25, 2011)
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Agenda
- Are things like the piles of ducks from Dan's duck fountains (Mesh Sandbox 21: 114,8) completely deterministic, or does some stochastic effect get added in, either with explicit randomisation or implicitly by some feature of the physics engine? [Drongle McMahon]
- Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
- Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]
- What will people using non-mesh viewers see if someone is wearing a rigged mesh?[Ashasekayi Ra]
- Is there a way to view the total streaming cost or rendering cost of a mesh object plus its textures?[Ashasekayi Ra]
- Just a note: Here's the jira URL for bone scaling/rotation support that was requested in the last meeting.[Ashasekayi Ra] https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-550
- Please import fix for STORM-809 into Linux Mesh branch (huge impact on viewer performances - current mesh builds are almost unusable on my system) --oobscure 11:09, 25 April 2011 (PDT)
Meeting Notes
Attendees List
- Andrew Linden (andrew.linden) (User's Wiki Page)
- Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
- Bronson Blackadder (bronson.blackadder)
- Brookston Holiday (brookston.holiday)
- Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
- Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
- Ima Mechanique (ima.mechanique) (User's Wiki Page)
- KiwiAshiri (kiwiashiri)
- Lazy (lazy.spectre)
- Nyx Linden (nyx.linden) (User's Wiki Page)
- Object (object)
- oobscure (opensource.obscure)
- Reed (reed.steamroller)
- davep (runitai.linden)
- Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
- And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith)
- Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
- Z (zslash.cyberstar)
Transcript for Monday April 25, 2011
[11:02] | Charlar Linden | Ready to start? |
[11:03] | Asha (ashasekayi.ra) | Surely |
[11:03] | Charlar Linden | First item - Are things like the piles of ducks from Dan's duck fountains (Mesh Sandbox 21: 114,8) completely deterministic, or does some stochastic effect get added in, either with explicit randomisation or implicitly by some feature of the physics engine? [Drongle McMahon] |
[11:03] | Vivienne Daguerre | /me smiles... |
[11:03] | Vivienne Daguerre | Asha, I can see your mesh! and it is lovely |
[11:03] | Charlar Linden | Agenda: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_User_Group |
[11:03] | Asha (ashasekayi.ra) | hehe.. Thank you. Too bad I can't see it... |
[11:05] | davep (runitai.linden) | so havok is deterministic *if* every simulation frame has exactly the same time increment |
[11:05] | davep (runitai.linden) | but that's never true on a second life sim host |
[11:06] | davep (runitai.linden) | there will always be some small margin of error due to variance in FPS from CPU load |
[11:06] | Charlar Linden | We have a sim engineer joining us in a minute, btw. |
[11:06] | Bronson Blackadder | if anyone is having problems seeing other avatars go to graghics and turn up the maximum number of non imposter avatars |
[11:06] | Vivienne Daguerre | /me smiles... |
[11:06] | Vivienne Daguerre | cool |
[11:06] | Bronson Blackadder | or turn off avatar imposters |
[11:06] | And (tankmaster.finesmith) | ^ |
[11:06] | davep (runitai.linden) | or use this viewer: |
[11:07] | Drongle McMahon | Ah. That explains why sometimed piles collapse identically and sometime not, maybe. |
[11:07] | davep (runitai.linden) | http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/seraph_mesh-candidate-vs2010/rev/227422/arch/CYGWIN/index.html |
[11:07] | Nyx Linden | most likely :) |
[11:08] | Brookston Holiday | hmmmm... chat text isn't lining up right in the new viewer, it's partially covered by the name of the speaker :( |
[11:08] | Brookston Holiday | for me anyways |
[11:08] | Charlar Linden | ok, next item? |
[11:09] | Charlar Linden | Can you give us an update on recent progress and what your priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre] |
[11:10] | Nyx Linden | we've been hammering on the merge with vs2010 so we can merge down to viewer-development |
[11:10] | Nyx Linden | that's been our primary focus for the past week |
[11:10] | Nyx Linden | which leads us into the next topic.... |
[11:10] | Charlar Linden | We'd love it if you could help us look for regressions. |
[11:10] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | cool. I suspect that answers also #8 which I had just added. |
[11:11] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | (meant #7 sorry) |
[11:11] | Vivienne Daguerre | how would I know a regression if I saw one? grins |
[11:11] | Charlar Linden | next: Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre] |
[11:12] | davep (runitai.linden) | so grab the installer from the links I posted above and login to agni |
[11:12] | Drongle McMahon | "Oh, it's that bug again, hgow nostalgic" |
[11:12] | Nyx Linden | so we *believe* the merge candidate should be good to be used on maingrid as a general viewer |
[11:12] | Nyx Linden | (or at least not more buggy than the main codebase :) ) |
[11:12] | davep (runitai.linden) | and if you find a bug in that viewer that doesn't exist in the current second life beta viewer, it's a regression and we need to fix it before we merge to trunk |
[11:13] | Vivienne Daguerre | I have been using the mesh viewer as my viewer on the main grid in the evenings with my friends |
[11:13] | Vivienne Daguerre | /me smiles... |
[11:13] | Vivienne Daguerre | ah, thank you for the clarification dave |
[11:13] | davep (runitai.linden) | bugs on the mesh grid are taking a back seat for now while we focus on making sure the mesh viewer can be used on agni |
[11:13] | Vivienne Daguerre | I have noticed two things... |
[11:14] | Vivienne Daguerre | favourite outfits do not always change smoothly but they do most of the time... |
[11:14] | Vivienne Daguerre | more annoying and consistent than that is the LSL editor |
[11:14] | davep (runitai.linden) | different from the current beta viewer? |
[11:14] | Nyx Linden | can you see those same bugs in the latest beta? |
[11:14] | Vivienne Daguerre | the spacing is very odd and you don't know where the cursor truly is, and the further you go down in the script the worse it is |
[11:14] | Vivienne Daguerre | so you cannot really use the mesh viewer for scripting |
[11:15] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | hm i always used mesh viewer for scripts and never had a similar problem or any problem at all |
[11:15] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | that's a regression. known, old and hated, bug. |
[11:15] | Object | Hello, Avatar! |
[11:15] | Vivienne Daguerre | I am using 2.6.3 226799 April 18 |
[11:15] | Nyx Linden | could you file a jira with specific reproduction steps? |
[11:15] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | im on 2.6.6 227422 |
[11:15] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | vivienne i can help you track down that one in JIRA later if you want. let me know |
[11:15] | Vivienne Daguerre | yes |
[11:16] | Vivienne Daguerre | thank you, if it is already there that would be a big help |
[11:16] | Nyx Linden | if we've re-awakened an old bug that's valid too :) |
[11:16] | Charlar Linden | OK, great - ready to move on? |
[11:16] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | thanks for fixing some physics bugs :P |
[11:16] | Object | Script edito testr! |
[11:16] | Charlar Linden | What will people using non-mesh viewers see if someone is wearing a rigged mesh?[Ashasekayi Ra] |
[11:17] | davep (runitai.linden) | same as any other mesh -- just a broken sculpt |
[11:17] | davep (runitai.linden) | looks kinda like a single flat triangle, if I remember right |
[11:17] | And (tankmaster.finesmith) | a 2d image |
[11:17] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | yeah |
[11:17] | Asha (ashasekayi.ra) | ok, I gotcha |
[11:18] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | why dont u guys instead of the flat triangle add a texture to it aswell saying (you need mesh viewer) ^^ |
[11:18] | And (tankmaster.finesmith) | cant, the testure is used for the mesh object |
[11:18] | Reed (reed.steamroller) | sots up |
[11:19] | Reed (reed.steamroller) | *wots |
[11:19] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | or give some kinda popup warning saying "some objects might not rez because you are on an old viewer" |
[11:19] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | so ppl know why its just a flat triangle |
[11:19] | davep (runitai.linden) | Z: because that would require updating a code base we don't use any more |
[11:19] | Nyx Linden | and requiring people to reinstall the update just to get that error message |
[11:20] | Rusalka Writer | My favorit error. |
[11:20] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | ah ok, no warning popup built ins |
[11:20] | Charlar Linden | next item: |
[11:20] | Charlar Linden | Is there a way to view the total streaming cost or rendering cost of a mesh object plus its textures?[Ashasekayi Ra] |
[11:20] | Nyx Linden | there will be! |
[11:20] | Asha (ashasekayi.ra) | Oh great |
[11:20] | Reed (reed.steamroller) | neat! |
[11:21] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | :D |
[11:21] | Asha (ashasekayi.ra) | Will that be added before mesh goes live? |
[11:21] | Nyx Linden | we have some debug displays in place, but we're working on some better stuff |
[11:21] | Drongle McMahon | It;s in Develop/Show Info/ Show Upload Cost, isn't it? |
[11:22] | Drongle McMahon | Not correct though. |
[11:22] | davep (runitai.linden) | you can do develop->show info->show render info |
[11:22] | Vivienne Daguerre | Just for your info, Oobscure found an old jira that describes the cursor problem in script editing, so it is a return of an old bug. Please see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21388 |
[11:22] | davep (runitai.linden) | and one of the lines shows region streaming cost or selection streaming cost |
[11:22] | Nyx Linden | new render cost isn't in a new viewer yet though |
[11:22] | Drongle McMahon | The straeming cost is wrong there too |
[11:23] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | any news on mesh upload costs ? |
[11:23] | Drongle McMahon | ...like my spelling |
[11:23] | davep (runitai.linden) | heh, all the costs are "wrong" right now |
[11:24] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | so correct upload costs will show in upcomding builds ? |
[11:25] | davep (runitai.linden) | it's going to take us awhile to zero in on "correct" upload costs |
[11:25] | davep (runitai.linden) | and streaming cost and render cost |
[11:25] | davep (runitai.linden) | it's going to take lots of analysis of various types of builds |
[11:25] | Nyx Linden | we're working on getting costs to a stable point where we can tweak the values based on content you guys create |
[11:26] | davep (runitai.linden) | and for once we're setting up the accounting system the "right" way instead of the quick way |
[11:26] | Nyx Linden | right now we're working on stability, but we do want to get back to improving this soon. |
[11:26] | Drongle McMahon | The trouble is that what we create depends on what the costs appear to be, so there is a circular effect there. |
[11:26] | davep (runitai.linden) | so it's going to be a little while before we can get back to tweaking the cost values |
[11:26] | Nyx Linden | it will take a few iterations to get right I'm sure :) |
[11:27] | Rusalka Writer | Agree with Drongle there, certainly. |
[11:27] | Drongle McMahon | Did you see CTS-536, Davep? |
[11:27] | davep (runitai.linden) | looking... |
[11:27] | davep (runitai.linden) | drongle: yup, I'm aware of that |
[11:27] | davep (runitai.linden) | thanks for the heads up |
[11:27] | Drongle McMahon | ok |
[11:28] | Charlar Linden | ok, let's move on... |
[11:28] | davep (runitai.linden) | /me is famous for "1 million is not 1 thousand" bugs. |
[11:28] | Charlar Linden | Just a note: Here's the jira URL for bone scaling/rotation support that was requested in the last meeting.[Ashasekayi Ra] https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-550 |
[11:28] | Drongle McMahon | I think it mightb be related to the normal distortion ... something going wrong with the transformations. |
[11:28] | Nyx Linden | answer: thanks for the note! |
[11:29] | Asha (ashasekayi.ra) | yw :) |
[11:29] | Nyx Linden | we'll pass it to prep |
[11:29] | Charlar Linden | ok, next: Please import fix for STORM-809 into Linux Mesh branch (huge impact on viewer performances - current mesh builds are almost unusable on my system) --oobscure 11:09, 25 April 2011 (PDT) |
[11:29] | Nyx Linden | it should have been picked up with the VS2010 merge from viewer-development |
[11:30] | Nyx Linden | so it should be imported on the build davep linked earlier |
[11:30] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | mmmw ok. 2.6.6.227422 crashes here tho |
[11:30] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | at startup. I'll file a jira (bin/do-not-directly-run-secondlife-bin: error while loading shared libraries: libtcmalloc.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory) |
[11:30] | davep (runitai.linden) | oobscure: neat, keep banging on that "submit report" button |
[11:30] | Nyx Linden | oobscure - we know that one and are working on it today :) |
[11:30] | davep (runitai.linden) | oh, that one |
[11:30] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | aw cool |
[11:31] | Nyx Linden | packaging issue - pretty simple |
[11:31] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | ok so i'm not reporting that one - correct? |
[11:31] | Nyx Linden | correct, you don't need to report that one |
[11:31] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | thanks, i'm good. |
[11:31] | Nyx Linden | our QA dev beat you to it :) |
[11:31] | davep (runitai.linden) | /me goes to fix the linux build RIGHT NOW. |
[11:31] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | :)) |
[11:32] | Charlar Linden | that was our last Agenda Item. |
[11:32] | KiwiAshiri | =^_^= |
[11:32] | Nyx Linden | anything else on your minds? |
[11:32] | Drongle McMahon | Can we have Mesh Sandbox 15 back please? |
[11:32] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | new avatar model ? |
[11:32] | Charlar Linden | I think we're done here, unless there's something else? |
[11:33] | Charlar Linden | Sandbox 15 is down? |
[11:33] | Lazy (lazy.spectre) | 34 is too |
[11:33] | Drongle McMahon | For a few days. |
[11:33] | Drongle McMahon | Several mesh regions are |
[11:33] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | 34 too |
[11:33] | Andrew Linden | I'll look into why Mesh Sandbox 15 is down. |
[11:33] | Z (zslash.cyberstar) | 34 only water we got |
[11:33] | Drongle McMahon | It used to be on an older version than the others. |
[11:34] | Drongle McMahon | Maybe all that content broke it if it was upgraded |
[11:34] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23799 on your radar ? |
[11:35] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | "In deferred rendering, solids get exponential light falloff decay, but alpha content gets linear light falloff decay." |
[11:35] | Charlar Linden | We're in very active dev on the sim side to try and get merged to trunk. Unfortunately that results in some additional instability on aditi. |
[11:35] | Drongle McMahon | Can I write a jira on random mesh disappearances, although it's completely unreproducible? |
[11:35] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | not directly related to meshes but relevant for shadows/rendering |
[11:36] | Nyx Linden | not yet, but thatnks for pointing it out oobscure :) |
[11:36] | oobscure (opensource.obscure) | ok |
[11:36] | Nyx Linden | ah dave believes its a known issue |
[11:36] | Andrew Linden | /me is going to restart the SL servers on the "Mesh Legacy" channel (Mesh Sandbox 15 and friends). |
[11:37] | Vivienne Daguerre | Question... Oobscure helped me find two old jiras that describe the script cursor position problem exactly. Should I just add a comment to them to indicate that the problem is back? Or do I need to file a new jira? |
[11:37] | Charlar Linden | anything else? Otherwise we're going to go back to coding and fixing. |
[11:37] | Drongle McMahon | Thanks Andrew |
[11:37] | Nyx Linden | Vivienne - reopen and change the affects versions, then send us a link |
[11:37] | Nyx Linden | also make sure the repro is valid! |
[11:37] | Vivienne Daguerre | well, I have not played with jiras before, so I am a jira noob |
[11:38] | Vivienne Daguerre | I will play with adjusting my UI size. I have reduced it below 1 since I have a large monitor. Perhaps that is why others are not seeing the problem and I am |
[11:38] | Nyx Linden | ok, at least add a comment with what you know of it coming back and send us a link :) |
[11:39] | Nyx Linden | we can twiddle the appropriate bits as necessary, but the repro information (and version it reproduces on) is critical :) |
[11:39] | Vivienne Daguerre | gotcha |
[11:39] | Vivienne Daguerre | I will work on that tomorrow |
[11:39] | Nyx Linden | thanks! |
[11:39] | Vivienne Daguerre | and get the latest viewer to make sure the problem still exists in it |
[11:39] | Nyx Linden | yep |
[11:40] | davep (runitai.linden) | oh, VWR-23799 should be fixable |
[11:40] | Andrew Linden | Mesh Sandbox 15 is starting now.... |
[11:40] | davep (runitai.linden) | I'll grab that today |
[11:41] | Charlar Linden | OK, I'm calling this meeting -- thanks folks! |
[11:41] | davep (runitai.linden) | w00 |
[11:41] | Vivienne Daguerre | see you soon |
[11:41] | Nyx Linden | see everyone next week! |
[11:41] | And (tankmaster.finesmith) | have a great week! |
[11:41] | Rusalka Writer | Aloha! |
[11:41] | Charlar Linden | yes, and please look for those regressions! |
[11:42] | Asha (ashasekayi.ra) | Have a good one all |
[11:42] | Ima Mechanique | bye all |