Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.02.18

List of Speakers

Andrew Linden	Crimson Wytchwood	Cummere Mayo
DogWomble Dollinger	Draconis Neurocam	Griefer Evermore
Jonathan Yap	Kaluura Boa	KayTee Haustraun
Krull Quar	Liisa Runo	Moon Metty
Moundsa Mayo	Plastic Duck	RedMokum Bravin
Rex Cronon	Sebastean Steamweaver	Sigma Avro
Simon Linden	Stickman Resident

Transcript

[16:02] Kaluura Boa: Look who calls me "furry"! =^_^=

[16:02] RedMokum Bravin: Hey Andrew!

[16:02] DogWomble Dollinger: hi andrew

[16:02] Sigma Avro: helo

[16:02] Draconis Neurocam: Welcome Andrew

[16:02] Krull Quar: Welcome Andrew

[16:02] Crimson Wytchwood: Hello Andrew :)

[16:03] Andrew Linden: Hello

[16:03] RedMokum Bravin: Andrew we always land in the water from the slurl in the wiki.

[16:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey andrew

[16:03] Sigma Avro: so we are clean

[16:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: and anyone I've missed

[16:03] Moon Metty: hi hi

[16:03] Andrew Linden: Ok I'll try to check the slurl

[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: Allo all

[16:03] Stickman Resident: And my alarm just went off. I forgot of a prior engagement. Hi Andrew, bye Andrew!

[16:03] Andrew Linden: last time I TP'ed directly with coordinates I ended up in the water too

[16:03] Andrew Linden: dunno what is up with that

[16:04] RedMokum Bravin: Kinda used to be in water but sometimes I hear people swear.

[16:04] DogWomble Dollinger: hey simon

[16:04] Simon Linden: Hello everyone :)

[16:04] Andrew Linden: ah good Simon made it

[16:04] Krull Quar: Gday

[16:04] Simon Linden: Got my new tires and made it back in time :)

[16:05] RedMokum Bravin: Ah.. safe driving.

[16:05] Cummere Mayo: hello simon hello andrew

[16:05] Crimson Wytchwood: Hi Simon :)

[16:05] Andrew Linden: News for this week...

[16:05] Andrew Linden: I've been working on misc stuff that won't be visible to the residents...

[16:06] Draconis Neurocam: how was the hackathon?

[16:06] Andrew Linden: I spent the first part of the week fixing little C++ warnings found by coverity (enterprise C++ analysis tool)

[16:06] Andrew Linden: then spent the end of the week helping with the viewer Vistual Studio 2010 hackathon

[16:06] Krull Quar: Sounds intriguing find anything pertinent

[16:07] Jonathan Yap: Was Coverity run on the viewer too?

[16:07] Andrew Linden: making 3rd party libs compile in VS2010 and our autobuild tool

[16:07] Andrew Linden: Yes Jonathan, Coverity was run on the viewer

[16:07] Draconis Neurocam: ooh

[16:07] Andrew Linden: Monty Linden was doing some of the Covertry response work too.

[16:08] Andrew Linden: No, I haven't found anything very interesting in the Coverity warnings yet.

[16:08] Andrew Linden: Real bugs, but most of them were not being tickled for various reaons.

[16:08] Andrew Linden: reasons

[16:08] Andrew Linden: I think I found one that *might* have caused some real damage (crashes or corrupt info) in some very rare cases.

[16:09] Andrew Linden: But I can't remember the details.

[16:09] Krull Quar: How do you keep track of the flow with such an involved application

[16:09] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody

[16:09] Krull Quar: Oh Hiya Rex

[16:10] Moundsa Mayo: Hey Rex

[16:10] Andrew Linden: Simon if you have any news go ahead.

[16:10] Andrew Linden: I've got someone asking me questions in RL that need to be answered.

[16:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: A relative!

[16:11] Simon Linden: No, I don't have anything to add

[16:11] Rex Cronon: hi krll, moundsa

[16:11] Rex Cronon: krull*

[16:11] Simon Linden: I've been working on performance at the messaging level, and hope that work will get out in a week or two

[16:11] Krull Quar: ;)

[16:12] Cummere Mayo: in that case simon any news on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6769 and related bugs?

[16:12] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6769] Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear

[16:13] Simon Linden: I don't have news on that, but I think Andrew was looking at it earlier this week

[16:13] Jonathan Yap: Is there any chance svc-378 could get some love?

[16:13] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378

[#SVC-378] Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends"

[16:14] Simon Linden: I do know someone found some ugly behavior in the viewer ... it looks like it re-attaches everything when it logs into a region. I don't know the details, but it sounded like something bad added in the past to cover up some other error

[16:14] Krull Quar: That could explain a few things

[16:14] Draconis Neurocam: that sounds unfun

[16:14] Moundsa Mayo: Heee. Sooner or later, patches-on-patches become too thick B^)

[16:15] Cummere Mayo: possibly but yeah this is kinda annoying. i cant even change outfits without it anymore

[16:15] RedMokum Bravin: It can turn you into a funny mix of avatars actually, Draconis.

[16:15] Andrew Linden: that sounds like that bug I noticed in Aditi then could not reproduce on agni...

[16:15] Andrew Linden: STORM-958 or something like that

[16:15] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-958

[#STORM-958] LLAgentWearables::userUpdateAttachments() is unecessarily expensive server-side

[16:15] Andrew Linden: yeah, that's the one

[16:16] Cummere Mayo: could that be a contributor to the bugs we're seeing andrew?

[16:16] Andrew Linden: Yes, could be.

[16:16] Sigma Avro: interesting !

[16:16] Andrew Linden: I haven't looked into why the viewer would ever call userUpdateAttachments() yet.

[16:17] Cummere Mayo: im surprised a server bug is in storm ^^

[16:17] Andrew Linden: But I'm guessing at least one of the paths to that call is erroneous or unneeded.

[16:18] Andrew Linden: In the particular case I was seeing the call the viewer is making it unecessarily -- on login.

[16:18] Cummere Mayo: hmmm

[16:18] Cummere Mayo: could that also be a contributor to storm-526 then?

[16:19] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-526

[#STORM-526] Log out failure during Login causes loss of pending offers, including inventory

[16:19] Draconis Neurocam: that would explain why i start with no skin and everything has to rebake on login

[16:19] Andrew Linden: When I noticed the bug it wasn't about attachments getting out of sync, but just that the viewer was doing something stupid.

[16:19] Andrew Linden: No, I don't think it is related to -526

[16:20] Andrew Linden: Ok, so the discussion is open....

[16:20] Andrew Linden: hrm... I had something I wanted to ask you guys.

[16:20] Andrew Linden: I'll try to remember it.

[16:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hmm

[16:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: Did it have anything to do with land?

[16:21] Draconis Neurocam: is anyone set to fix those problems with the viewer you found?

[16:21] Moundsa Mayo: Did we want doughnuts or crullers, maybe?

[16:21] DogWomble Dollinger: coffee or beer?

[16:21] Andrew Linden: Draconis Neurocamg into the attachment problems next week

[16:22] Krull Quar: Cinnamon buns with cheesy creamy icing sugar

[16:22] Andrew Linden: if it is viewer problems we may fix it there, but we'd want to make the server resilient too

[16:22] Andrew Linden: but I don't understand the source of the problem well enough yet

[16:22] Sigma Avro: it seems there is a lot of attachment failures on magnum

[16:22] Moundsa Mayo: And Blue Mountain black, Krull?

[16:22] KayTee Haustraun: Or just the icing itself

[16:22] Andrew Linden: Yes I remember what I was going to ask...

[16:22] Draconis Neurocam: i think it would make sense to make both as resilient as possible

[16:22] Krull Quar: Could be

[16:22] Cummere Mayo: sigma its grid wide

[16:22] DogWomble Dollinger: ask away and avoid awful alliteration andrew

[16:23] Sigma Avro: ok, Cummere, can belive you

[16:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: Alliterations are awesome.

[16:23] Griefer Evermore: Do these inventory issues include having two shapes showing as being worn?

[16:23] Andrew Linden: I had joked with Richard Linden that maybe he needed to rewrite the animation system and he asked: "What does it need?"

[16:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: !!!!!

[16:23] Andrew Linden: so I figured I would forward the question to you guys to see what requests you had

[16:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: Stick will be kicking himself - one sec Andrew, let me try and get him back here.

[16:23] Draconis Neurocam: actually, i feel like the animation system is very robust, but the client doesnt support all that is possible

[16:23] Sigma Avro: hands, please do something for hands

[16:24] Cummere Mayo: proper puppeteering, better bone/muscular control

[16:24] Moundsa Mayo: Syncing with avatar parts

[16:24] Cummere Mayo: and yeah hhands feet and facial

[16:24] Kaluura Boa: Yes! Hands!

[16:24] Draconis Neurocam: direct upload of .anim files

[16:24] Jonathan Yap: I would like to be able to change the priority after an upload

[16:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: And feet

[16:24] Kaluura Boa: Priorities too!

[16:24] RedMokum Bravin: Movement of lips.. even if you are not on voice. Would be very nice for singers on stage.

[16:24] Sigma Avro: facial its more or less ok, but hands, no way to control rhem

[16:24] Andrew Linden: yup, syncing of hands would be nice

[16:24] Andrew Linden makes a list

[16:24] DogWomble Dollinger: actually being able to change the priority is probably a good thing

[16:24] Simon Linden: I had a conversation with Richard about that too ... there are lots of good ideas around

[16:24] Moundsa Mayo: Feet for pedaling, too.

[16:24] RedMokum Bravin: I often visit Theatre on the hill, where they do revues. Singing without lipsync looks awful.

[16:25] Draconis Neurocam: the ability to animate attachment points, i know its possible but requires viewer modification

[16:25] DogWomble Dollinger: only because it will allow corrections if for example you sit down and realise your AO competes with the sitting animation

[16:25] Moon Metty: super imposable animations

[16:25] Moon Metty: if that's a word lol

[16:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Darn, stick is off at dinner.

[16:25] Liisa Runo: ability to LSL a joint(hand) to be locked to object rezzed in-world, For example to always place hand on the steering wheel of a car, no matter whta shape and size you are

[16:25] DogWomble Dollinger: superimposible or superimpossible?

[16:25] Moundsa Mayo: And interacting animations between avatars.

[16:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: Official support system for deformations.

[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: anything to five more control to lsl to deal with them

[16:26] Sigma Avro: there is no express-hand -em

te, so it is needed high priority with selected hand shape and this brekes the others anaims

[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: give*

[16:26] Jonathan Yap: I think you cannot change the priority now because assets are immutable

[16:26] Krull Quar: Has anyone thought about hierarchical capability

[16:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: A joint for the toes, the neck, and accompanying attachment points.

[16:27] Andrew Linden: yes, assets cannot be modified once written

[16:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Objects with stand-alone animations that do not require an avatar, so you can have an object itself animate.

[16:27] Draconis Neurocam: that would be part of mesh sebastean

[16:27] RedMokum Bravin: Using Puppeteer now.

[16:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'd prefer it not be confined to mesh, though.

[16:28] Sigma Avro: well need mesh and no more avats. Poor bots, they will dye soon

[16:28] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for that list

[16:28] RedMokum Bravin: Rien ne va plus? :-)

[16:28] Andrew Linden: I wrote most of it down and will relay it to Richard.

[16:28] Kaluura Boa: It would also be nice not to always have the sit animation when you sit on something... So that you can position/rotate an avi but not interfere with the standing anims

[16:29] Griefer Evermore: If we ask around and get more suggestions, can we pass them on to you?

[16:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew, could Stickman send you a notecard?

[16:29] Liisa Runo: oh, one more, fix some of the defalt LL anims, like the gun hold for example. It still does the butt-peek glitch

[16:29] Andrew Linden: However I know he doesn't have much time to work on animation, hence the reason I brought up the joke with him in the first place.

[16:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Or an email, to relay to him?

[16:29] Andrew Linden: But I wasn't preprared to list everything that animations needed.

[16:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: He's at dinner at the moment, and I know he'll be kicking himself that he wasn't here.

[16:29] Andrew Linden: Sure, Stickman can email me.

[16:29] Draconis Neurocam: its good that thought is even there

[16:30] Sigma Avro: by the way, can somthing be done on avat meshing ?

[16:30] Andrew Linden: I dunno much about meshes for avatars.

[16:30] Sigma Avro: ok

[16:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: Sigma: new avatar meshes will probably come at some point after mesh.

[16:30] Andrew Linden: I thought we were working on that a little bit on the side.

[16:30] Andrew Linden: But don't know the status of it.

[16:30] RedMokum Bravin: In http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Internal_Animations an internal animation is also still reported as "missing".

[16:31] Sigma Avro: tks Sebastian, would like to have some link to follow this

[16:32] Andrew Linden: I'm supposed to publish these User Group transcripts.

[16:32] Kaluura Boa: Talking about internal animations, an LSL way to replace them would be so niiiiice... To make all scripted or client AOs obsolete.

[16:32] Andrew Linden: I've been saving them, but need to find the time to actually publish them.

[16:32] Andrew Linden: I'll try to get up to date this weekend.

[16:32] Moundsa Mayo: Someone might start an Animations Upgrade List Wiki page ...

[16:32] Andrew Linden: (along with all the other stuff I'm trying to get done then)

[16:32] Simon Linden: Yes, I'd really like people to be able to just specify a walk animation (and others) and let the sim do the work

[16:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: Being able to change the default animations used for avatar stats, per avatar, Kaluura? That's been requested for a while.

[16:33] Draconis Neurocam: i cant imagine how busy you must actually be andrew, these meetings are appretiated

[16:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: It would be so far better than overriders.

[16:33] Sigma Avro: yes, agree , overides must cause a lot of load on servers and sims

[16:33] Kaluura Boa: AOs spend their time stopping default anims... That's stupid...

[16:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: Then again, removing the flight height limit would also be good ;)

[16:34] Draconis Neurocam: yes simon that would be very nice

[16:34] Sigma Avro: well, flight heigh is nice for newbees, remeber my first days...

[16:34] RedMokum Bravin: As long as we don't start to bounce upon the slightest jump like in OpenSim.

[16:34] Griefer Evermore: lol

[16:34] Moundsa Mayo: Open whaaaa?

[16:35] RedMokum Bravin: You know, where physics appear to be absent. >:-)

[16:35] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think the general consensus was that flight height would need to be a toggleable feature.

[16:35] Sigma Avro: why not a gradient like flight limit ?

[16:35] Moundsa Mayo: Maybe defaulted on until 30 days old or some such

[16:36] Andrew Linden: would anyone here complain if we removed the flight height limit?

[16:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: I would not.

[16:36] Draconis Neurocam: no

[16:36] Griefer Evermore: no

[16:36] Krull Quar: Nope

[16:36] Kaluura Boa: Nope!

[16:36] DogWomble Dollinger: i wouldn't

[16:36] RedMokum Bravin: Not at all.

[16:36] Sigma Avro: I would, lol

[16:36] Krull Quar: Save me from wearing a flight feather

[16:36] Krull Quar: Fewer script costs

[16:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: Save the sims from flight feathers

[16:36] Sigma Avro: well, actually, it causes also a lot of lag for flight feathers

[16:36] Krull Quar: hehe

[16:36] Andrew Linden: It might be hard to change after all these years.

[16:36] DogWomble Dollinger: well, i've got flight assist switched on in a hud anyways, but switching the flight height off would mean i could disable that feature

[16:37] DogWomble Dollinger: well is there anythign disabling flight height would break?

[16:37] Sebastean Steamweaver: Flight feathers lol

[16:37] Andrew Linden: I'd probably have to add a bit that allows estate owners to set the flight limit.

[16:37] Griefer Evermore: apart from banlines?

[16:37] Krull Quar: lol

[16:37] Draconis Neurocam: i remember a formal request to remove it a few months ago, the return from the linden side was that it would ruin immersion

[16:37] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, that would generally defeat the purpose I'd think.

[16:37] Sigma Avro: sure that yes, but not for me specifically. Should be more asked arround, seems to me

[16:38] KayTee Haustraun: I actually had a question

[16:38] Sebastean Steamweaver: You'd still have to have the flight feather script for sims that had it enabled.

[16:38] Krull Quar: People always find ways around flight limits anyway

[16:38] Andrew Linden: hrm... maybe I could turn it into an option with a default setting, and then estate owners could turn it off

[16:38] Moundsa Mayo: Yes.

[16:38] Draconis Neurocam: that would be good

[16:38] Andrew Linden: then eventually we could turn if off on the mainland

[16:38] Sigma Avro: oh, yes put nit in sim console, would be nice

[16:38] KayTee Haustraun: Why doesn't everyone get their own last name anymore?

[16:38] RedMokum Bravin: I remember flying on a prim in my first days. Thought it was clever... lol.

[16:39] Krull Quar: Could it be defaulted so that sim owners had to turn it on and explain that it would cause less lag based on no need for flight assist scripts instead

[16:39] Sebastean Steamweaver: They use "usernames" now. If you want a last name, you would need to use a viewer that supports "Display Names" and change it.

[16:39] Moundsa Mayo: Or even use it as a training aid for new Residents - they could learn the first settings change by turning it off.

[16:39] Andrew Linden: KayTee that was part of the "Display Names" project -- there is only one last name available now

[16:39] Draconis Neurocam: how often does the message template from the server get updated to the viewer end?

[16:39] KayTee Haustraun: Why?

[16:39] Sigma Avro: yes, Red, that is why I find this feature nice, and could have been used for PG questions rather than making new constinents

[16:39] Andrew Linden: Dunno actually, I wasn't part of the "Display Names" project.

[16:39] Sigma Avro: *continents

[16:40] Moundsa Mayo: Well, there's still Linden, and Scout, but they're much harder to get B^)

[16:40] Jonathan Yap: Yes Andrew, I need that server template pushed to the viewer code; a bugfix is waiting on it

[16:40] Andrew Linden: Draconis, we don't update the message template much at all these days.

[16:40] Draconis Neurocam: see jonathan*

[16:40] Andrew Linden: oh... I documented the template change

[16:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew, I would be in favor of the default being "Off" but I would give scriptors a big notice of about 2 months at least, before release date, so that those who currently integrate flight feathers could make the transition.

[16:41] RedMokum Bravin: Still I see very young avatars with "normal" family names. So the registration API is still out there and using old style naming.

[16:41] KayTee Haustraun: Last names make us unique. Everyone being named "Resident" makes us seem like we have no personality

[16:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: scripters*

[16:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: You only see "Resident" if you use a third-party viewer, or a viewer that doesn't support display names.

[16:42] Sigma Avro: well, flight feather will be the same problem as resizing scripts, thre was a suggestion of being abble to brake them, but oposition because already sold at high price

[16:42] Draconis Neurocam: theres still some third party regapis that let you sign up with a last name, but they are few and far between

[16:42] Griefer Evermore: Flight feathers are sold?

[16:42] RedMokum Bravin: I would still like to be able to delete scripts from non mod items.

[16:42] Kaluura Boa: No... It's free

[16:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: If they are integrated into other products, yes.

[16:42] Sigma Avro: lol, yes even these are sold

[16:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: Some people write their own into things.

[16:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: All I'm saying is, people would need plenty of notice, but I don't think anyone would mind. There aren't many people I know who don't wear a flight feather of some kind at all times.'

[16:44] Rex Cronon: i don't wear one

[16:44] Rex Cronon: is too laggy sometimes

[16:44] Sigma Avro: mine is integrated elsewhere

[16:44] Krull Quar: I always have one on

[16:44] Crimson Wytchwood: Me too

[16:44] Kaluura Boa: Me too... Can't be switch off

[16:44] Sebastean Steamweaver: I need to bolt folks - got a dinner appointment this evening.

[16:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Take care all

[16:45] Krull Quar: Night Sebastean

[16:45] RedMokum Bravin: Enjoy Sebastean!

[16:45] Sigma Avro: by Sebast

[16:45] Rex Cronon: is very easy to turn off. detach it:)

[16:45] Moon Metty: bye Seb :)

[16:45] Rex Cronon: tc

[16:45] Moundsa Mayo: Cya. Enjoy the meal!

[16:45] RedMokum Bravin: Good quality of hay I hope.

[16:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thanks! Red Lobster ;)

[16:45] Jonathan Yap: Can we talk about https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378 for a few moments?

[16:45] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-378] Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends"

[16:45] Sigma Avro: seems indeed a good change to do

[16:46] Andrew Linden: Sure Jonathan.

[16:46] Krull Quar: Ahh yes the defaulted new member settings

[16:46] Jonathan Yap: Any chance of that getting some attention in one of the misc. fixes you do?

[16:46] Andrew Linden opens the jira...

[16:46] RedMokum Bravin: I actually ran into that one when we sold land. :-p

[16:46] Simon Linden: Are both of those things an issue, or just one?

[16:46] Jonathan Yap: One of my alts now has a balance of L$-10

[16:46] Kaluura Boa: hehehe

[16:46] RedMokum Bravin: My group was sending L$5000 to all members.

[16:46] Krull Quar: Oh my

[16:47] Cummere Mayo: uch

[16:47] Krull Quar: What group was that?

[16:47] Jonathan Yap: We all will join

[16:47] Rex Cronon: 5k? what group:)

[16:47] Sigma Avro: since it is just a default seting, it is not dificult to change it. But there also some months are neede to inform some groups, seems to me

[16:47] Krull Quar: hehe

[16:47] RedMokum Bravin: I fixed it after 3 members said thank you for it.

[16:47] Jonathan Yap: I think the idea is to change it for only new groups

[16:47] Jonathan Yap: Not to touch existing groups

[16:47] Sigma Avro: the time I can join Red"s group, hehe

[16:47] Krull Quar: Yes

[16:47] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, least impact that way.

[16:47] Cummere Mayo: to have that on as a default is silly

[16:48] Krull Quar: I agree

[16:48] Krull Quar: Well it's not logical

[16:48] Jonathan Yap: It is more than silly, you can lose money

[16:48] RedMokum Bravin: Also you shouldn't be tricked into being responsible for payment in all those groups that shops try to make you a member of.

[16:48] Andrew Linden: yeah that is an old issue. Lots of comments.

[16:48] Moundsa Mayo: Sure, it's Boolean B^)

[16:48] RedMokum Bravin: Boolean Shit :-)

[16:48] Sigma Avro: I know many group whose dividends are negative

[16:48] Cummere Mayo: ive seen it used to scam people

[16:49] Sigma Avro: so, it neraly required to do this change

[16:49] RedMokum Bravin: Nigerian group membership letters... lol.

[16:49] Krull Quar: rofl

[16:49] Cummere Mayo: lol

[16:49] Cummere Mayo: surprised zfire hasnt taken advantage of this yet ...

[16:50] Cummere Mayo: lol

[16:50] Moundsa Mayo: Should be a blue popup warning you'll be "Subject to group Liabilities if you join this group."

[16:50] RedMokum Bravin: Yes!

[16:50] Cummere Mayo: definately

[16:50] Krull Quar: Ditto!

[16:50] Kaluura Boa: Even a yellow one...

[16:50] Jonathan Yap: yes, but would you know what that means?

[16:50] Rex Cronon: u also need to know how much liability u r talking about:)

[16:50] Moundsa Mayo: And wehn it's set on, all group members get a message saying so.

[16:51] Jonathan Yap: maybe "money may automatically be taken from your account"

[16:51] Krull Quar: If it says Money will be taken every week in big bold red letters with and OK-Cancel window maybe

[16:51] Moundsa Mayo: Well, anything to lessen the abuse incidence.

[16:51] Sigma Avro: groups have so many optins, that providing all the informations needed maybe tedious

[16:51] Jonathan Yap: It must be a moderate issue for the support people "where did my money go?"

[16:52] Andrew Linden wonders who to talk to get an approval of that bug...

[16:52] Sigma Avro: cant say it nhere, lol,

[16:52] Cummere Mayo: ive seen group owners buy a parcel of land then divide it up into 16m^2 parcels and then buy it for the group on an alt

[16:52] Andrew Linden: I suspect it is very easy to make the change... once we figured out where it was to be done.

[16:52] Jonathan Yap: Probably in some template setting file

[16:52] Andrew Linden: That is, not a lot of code changes.

[16:53] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, do you agree it is a good idea?

[16:53] Krull Quar: To avoid potential fraud, what if taking money from group members was only available to residents with payment info on file

[16:53] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, like my marketing people have said - "All yo need to do is add a button." B^D

[16:54] Krull Quar: As it is now anyone can create a group

[16:54] Simon Linden: We'd probably have to make sure a bunch of other LL folks agreed, but it doesn't sound like that would be too hard to do

[16:54] Andrew Linden: I *guess* it is a good idea. My opinion is swayed by the popular sentiment in this case

[16:54] Moundsa Mayo: But more likely a single change from 1 to 0 hidden deep in a source file not touched for years.

[16:54] Andrew Linden: because I really don't *use* groups myself.

[16:55] Andrew Linden: And I haven't done much group coding, so I don't know the feature set well.

[16:55] Simon Linden: hmm, maybe we can start one for this User Group and see how that can be abused...

[16:55] Krull Quar: Some people use groups heavily and drill down into the details

[16:55] Simon Linden: err, I mean, how the feature works

[16:55] Krull Quar: lol

[16:55] Andrew Linden: I asked one LL dev who is sitting nearby and he was surprised that it does not work the way you all want it to work.

[16:55] Draconis Neurocam: hahaha

[16:55] Moon Metty: :)

[16:55] Moundsa Mayo: Oh, is ther an actual User Group for us to join now?

[16:55] Simon Linden: Not that I know of, I'm just making this up

[16:56] Krull Quar: hehe

[16:56] Cummere Mayo: andrew i would be glad to demonstrate it for all the lindens that need convincing

[16:56] Sigma Avro: beta group

[16:56] Cummere Mayo grins evilly

[16:56] Krull Quar: lol

[16:56] Moundsa Mayo: Everything is virtual at some level, Simon B^)

[16:56] Krull Quar: <-- THinks about a new group

[16:56] DogWomble Dollinger: you mean i'm not real moundsa?

[16:56] DogWomble Dollinger: :P

[16:56] Andrew Linden: No Cummere, probably not a good idea to campaign too hard.

[16:57] Sigma Avro: fraud group, hehe

[16:57] Krull Quar: rofl

[16:57] Krull Quar: Anti Fraud group :P

[16:57] Plastic Duck: it does add up, I have alts that are over 10,000L in debt from random group fees

[16:57] Griefer Evermore: too many alts?

[16:57] Andrew Linden: But I'll ask around to see what other people think, and to see if I can find the people who are stakeholders in the group feature set.

[16:57] Kaluura Boa: Too many groups...

[16:57] Cummere Mayo: >.> i was just going to make a linden fan group invite lindens and then um... you know buy a 20million linden plot of ground from myself >.>

[16:57] Sigma Avro: beta fraud sounds nice

[16:57] Krull Quar: God I could create a thousand alts and sign them all up and be rich!

[16:57] Jonathan Yap: But where did that non-existent money go?

[16:58] Sigma Avro: I have been frauded by a no existing anymore avat, so I knwo where it went

[16:58] Cummere Mayo is kidding btw

[16:58] SL Bear Gun: Bear's away!

[16:58] Plastic Duck: it goes to Linden I think, it's just the search fee right?

[16:58] SL Bear Gun: Cease fire!

[16:58] Cummere Mayo: search fees land tiers etc

[16:59] RedMokum Bravin: Any plans for setting reasonable settings on abandoned land yet?

[16:59] Jonathan Yap: That whole system should be rethought, but at least changing this would help

[16:59] Andrew Linden: Yes there are plans on that RedMokum.

[16:59] RedMokum Bravin: I found a huge working shop on a 16384m2 parcel that was abandoned.

[16:59] Sigma Avro: well, goods sold by baned avatars are not destructed, that is a problem, can make fraud to continue

[17:00] Andrew Linden: I had Guy Linden write up the specs for what he thought should be done for abandoned land.

[17:00] RedMokum Bravin: Ah great!

[17:00] Andrew Linden: And that item is on my backlog.

[17:00] RedMokum Bravin: Saves him a whole backload as well.

[17:01] Andrew Linden: Yes, I think that if I could get that done then Guy's time would open up and he could do other stuff.

[17:01] Plastic Duck: the original system where the land became public and we had to find it ourselves was genuinely fun

[17:01] Sigma Avro: Andrew, also money taking primls are a problem, seems to me

[17:01] RedMokum Bravin: Very strange that "payment" to objects can still be active on abandoned land.

[17:01] RedMokum Bravin: But seen lots of them this week.

[17:01] Moundsa Mayo: Heh. One friend is being repeatedly spammed by a security orb belonging to an account no loger in Search | People from a shop a region and 290m away.

[17:01] Andrew Linden: ok sorry everyone, but I have to head out so I can be somewhere on time

[17:02] Andrew Linden: have a good weekend

[17:02] Andrew Linden: and thanks for coming

[17:02] Sigma Avro: ok, thanks a lot

[17:02] Jonathan Yap: Moundsa, can't they mute it?

[17:02] Draconis Neurocam: take care andrew and simon

[17:02] RedMokum Bravin: Good weekend.

[17:02] RedMokum Bravin: Thanks for your time.

[17:02] Krull Quar: Thanks andrew have a good weekend

[17:02] Moon Metty: yes, have a good weekend :)

[17:02] Moundsa Mayo: Thanks for your time, Andrew!

[17:02] Sigma Avro: good we all

[17:02] Moon Metty: and thanks for the meeting

[17:02] Griefer Evermore: cya Andrew

[17:02] Simon Linden: Thanks all for coming and the good ideas

[17:02] Jonathan Yap: thanks you simon an andrew

[17:02] Crimson Wytchwood: Thank you Anrew and Simon ..

[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[17:02] Moundsa Mayo: And Simon, thanks to you too!

[17:02] Cummere Mayo: tc and ty simon and andrew?

[17:02] Crimson Wytchwood: *Andrew

[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc simon

[17:02] Sigma Avro: both thanks

[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc everybody

[17:02] Simon Linden: Bye everyone, see you next week

[17:02] Krull Quar: Anyone up for a new group membership

[17:03] Plastic Duck: cya