Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.10.08

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden ANSI Soderstrom Baker Linden
GEE McAuley Ima Mechanique Jenna Felton
Jonathan Yap Kennylex Luckless Lucia Nightfire
Mona Eberhardt Qie Niangao Rex Cronon
Simon Linden Skills Hak Talarus Luan
Whirly Fizzle Yuzuru Jewell


[12:04] ANSI Soderstrom: the chief

[12:04] Simon Linden: Hello Andrew ... I did the release news so please speak up if you have anything

[12:05] Andrew Linden: I was hoping to lurk today.

[12:05] Rex Cronon: hello andrew

[12:05] Andrew Linden: I don't have much news.

[12:05] Andrew Linden: I'm trying to get some regions up on aditi to test scene loading.

[12:06] Baker Linden: I'm working really hard on trying to get everything on aditi in two weeks. I can't guarantee it (my parents are coming to visit and I have a couple days off between now and next week friday), but I'm going to try to get internal testing started and (hopefully) finished by next week, which would mean that I'll miss the deploy window next week

[12:06] Andrew Linden: I don't have any bug fixes that are coming out soon.

[12:07] Simon Linden: ok, so the table's open for topics or questions

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire: hows work on teh avatar render by script thing?

[12:07] Rex Cronon: right baker. u don't want to hurry things and introduce new bugs;)

[12:07] ANSI Soderstrom: llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin wont work anymore with negative pins

[12:07] Baker Linden: Indeed, Rex :)

[12:08] Simon Linden: Lucy - do you mean the avatar render weight info?

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire: that change you were working on

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire: the >1mil reporting and anti-obfuscation

[12:09] Andrew Linden looks at the llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin() implementation...

[12:09] Simon Linden: right ... the internals should be updated in our next RC release, hopefully next week

[12:09] Rex Cronon: what anti-obfuscation lucy?

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: [12:09:29] llRemoteLoadScriptPin() test (src): sending script...

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: negative swork for me

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire: and ty Simon

[12:10] Simon Linden: The viewer that supports the data reports is now the standard download, btw, so there should be more and more data available

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire: looking forward to testing again, heh

[12:11] Whirly Fizzle: Does the viewer send back the info even if that debug is disabled? (forgot its name)

[12:11] Whirly Fizzle: "RenderAutoMuteLogging"

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: the viewer sends data w/ or w/o that checked afaik

[12:12] Simon Linden: yes, that just turns on extra log messages to secondlife.log

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle: ahh okay

[12:12] Simon Linden: I can run through those settings if anyone is interested

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire: ijdk if it sends values >1mil or not, but they aren't beign used by the ARW server

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: I mean the log data shows it sees it, but after that, unknown to me

[12:13] Simon Linden: there really isn't a ARW server ... I'm not sure what you mean by that

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire: whatever is doing calc on teh numbers

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle: Whats the highest ARW thats been sent back from an avi so far? :D

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire: the highest used num I've seen from myself is 999,996

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire: it won't return a 1,000,001

[12:14] Andrew Linden: I don't see a problem with llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin(). It is stored as a 32-bit signed integer and compared with signed integers.

[12:15] Simon Linden: The current highest ARW I've seen in 1,244,757

[12:15] ANSI Soderstrom: wont work with negative numbers

[12:15] Simon Linden: is*

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: I can show you a 20 million right quick if you want, lol

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle: hahaha

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle derenders you

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire: you won't have to btw

[12:15] Simon Linden: ah, no thanks

[12:15] Simon Linden: It's not a High Score, really

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom: maybe its only in Bluesteel that it wont work with negative numbers

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: its all legacy prim too, and not that harmful

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom: bluesteel has also llGetCameraRot broken

[12:16] Simon Linden: All the RC channels are the same code right now

[12:16] Andrew Linden: huh... yeah I was checking the main codebase

[12:16] Andrew Linden: I'll look in the RC codebase

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: I just tested on BS just now, it works too

[12:17] Simon Linden: I don't remember any changes related to that function recently

[12:17] ANSI Soderstrom: but i dont take drugs

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: why not

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire: lol

[12:18] Andrew Linden: hrm... nothing's changed ANSI. We'll have to try to reproduce it.

[12:18] Qie Niangao: ANSI, it's never too late to start.

[12:18] Andrew Linden: has a bug been entered? or are you reporting it for the first time now?

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle: No JIRA yet

[12:18] ANSI Soderstrom: llGetCameraRot is reported by Wolfur Windstorm

[12:18] ANSI Soderstrom: llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin is by me, first time

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: is BUG-4024 goign to be fixed with the next RC release?

[12:19] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914

[12:19] Andrew Linden: yeah, I have a fix for the llGetCameraRot() bug. I think the fix is going into the RC update tomorrow.

[12:19] Simon Linden: yes, that should be fixed, Lucy

[12:19] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom: Hello Object with the UUID of d732fce5-c1d6-4131-3620-3f1a7b29e6af

[12:19] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom: Hello Object with the UUID of d732fce5-c1d6-4131-3620-3f1a7b29e6af

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: great, because I found another repro angle but if its autoreturn or return due to overflow, then it should be fixed too

[12:20] Simon Linden: There was a weird conflict in the region crossing and autoreturn code ... autoreturn now won't grab objects it shouldn't

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom: yes, and the annoying missing inventory thing

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire: now if you can just fix lol

[12:21] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom: works here on server

[12:22] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914

[12:22] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914

[12:24] Rex Cronon: .

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: lol

[12:25] Rex Cronon: i thought sim crashed

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: I played the cricket sound too

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: people playing angry birds

[12:25] Andrew Linden: heh, maybe we'll have to end this meeting early

[12:25] Andrew Linden: we haven't done that in a while I think

[12:26] Jonathan Yap: That's an idea--if the viewer loses contact with a region it should play a little death march sound

[12:26] Talarus Luan: I take it you haven't had a chance to look at the llSetKeyframedMotion issue yet?

[12:26] Simon Linden: I've always wanted some wild graphics eye-candy for teleports

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle: I use a funeral march sound clip for my region restart sound :D

[12:26] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, Oz said doing storm-1955 was too complicated--would you care to comment?

[12:26] JIRA-helper:

[#STORM-1955] Add fields to the ObjectAdd packet sent to the server to support default permissions - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:26] Andrew Linden: no Talarus, not yet

[12:26] Ima Mechanique: Jonathan, I'd prefer London Calling to Death MArch ;-)

[12:26] Talarus Luan: k

[12:27] Andrew Linden: I've been busy trying to get the interestlist project all finished... the viewer side of that project isn't released yet

[12:27] Talarus Luan nodnods

[12:27] Jonathan Yap: My idea on how to go about that request would be to make a new packet with the needed fields; the changes to the server would not be all that great

[12:27] Andrew Linden: and little bugs keep showing up in the server code that affect the new viewer stuff

[12:28] Andrew Linden: whose viewer would play the music on loss of contact?

[12:28] Andrew Linden: the viewer that loses contact? or the other viewers who see the ghost avatar?

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: Simon is anyone looking at that issue that blocks asset requests from entering pending state, ie the sim bombing

[12:28] Rex Cronon: who loses contact

[12:29] Rex Cronon: at times i am not sure if i am still in or out

[12:29] Simon Linden: Not that I know of, Lucy, but I'm curious - is there a jira?

[12:30] Jonathan Yap: Rex, I think you might want to try turning on ShowNetStats debug variable (I think that is the correct name)

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: I didn't file a SEC myself. not sure if anyone else did

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:30] Simon Linden: I'm kinda frustrated with the viewer not retrying some fetches - I see a few lost baked textures right now and it should be re-fetching those

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle: Try changing active group tag

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle: Sounds weird but it works

[12:32] Simon Linden: I don't see any new texture fetches

[12:32] Talarus Luan: I have a question about sim backup/restore.. is it technically possible to backup the content of one sim, and restore it to another? Is it something feasible to do for two sims you own?

[12:32] Andrew Linden: "issue that blocks asset requests from entering pending state"... I don't recognize that problem.

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: Maestro is aware of it I know

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: I'll probabyl fiel a SEC, onyl to have it be a suplicate, lol

[12:32] Simon Linden: "technically possible" is really broad, Talarus ... in the end, it's all just data

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire: *dupe

[12:33] Andrew Linden: ok, I'll try to ask Maestro for more info

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: had it used several times today in WT

[12:33] Talarus Luan: True, but there are database consistency issues which may not be apparent from us plebians on the outside.

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: one time when no objects could be rezzed

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: only requires one attempted rez apparently

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: I gave Simon the details on what the object is and where to obtain it, don't want to post that in chat, lol

[12:35] Andrew Linden: Talarus, technically it is possible to move content from one region to another... however we don't have any automated tools for it.

[12:35] Rex Cronon: the "bomb"?

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: yes, Rez and its quiv behaviour

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire: *rex

[12:35] Andrew Linden: that is, I could do it but it would involve some manual file hacking

[12:35] Simon Linden: Right. I don't think that's something normally done because of the no-copy implications, and there are other issues where you have to change names, parcel info and such because they have to be unique

[12:35] Talarus Luan: So the existing automatic backups can't be cross-restored to another sim?

[12:35] Simon Linden: That's correct

[12:35] Talarus Luan: k

[12:36] Andrew Linden: technically possible... but would require new tools

[12:36] Talarus Luan: Yeah, I know the no-copy issue, mainly we are interested in swapping the content of two sims.

[12:36] Talarus Luan: So there wouldn't be two copies of either

[12:37] Jonathan Yap: It would be easier to just change the sims' names--if there was no charge to do a swap

[12:37] Jenna Felton: names and positions :)

[12:37] Talarus Luan: Well, the issue has to do with a grandfathered sim and a non-grandfathered sim

[12:38] Rex Cronon: if onle there was a lsl function llTpObj(string simName, vector pos)

[12:38] Rex Cronon: :)

[12:38] Talarus Luan: We already asked if we could change which sim gets billed what, but they said they can't do that, so we're looking for a technical solution

[12:38] Rex Cronon: if only*

[12:39] Simon Linden: You just need to make a bot, attach, TP and drop, Rex :)

[12:40] Rex Cronon: well. i need a lsl bot:)

[12:40] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I think my question about your thoughts on got lost in a previous discussion

[12:40] JIRA-helper: [#STORM-1955] Add fields to the ObjectAdd packet sent to the server to support default permissions - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:41] Jonathan Yap: In an email I think Oz said you had thought this was too much trouble to do(?)

[12:41] ANSI Soderstrom: we need creator licences... some things will never get into SL because a hand full of griefers, so i suggest a licencsing system..... i have to ask LL if iam allowed to use a function,if yes, they kick a switch and i can use this LSL function... if i make nonsens with this function, LL will revoke the usage of this licensed Functions for me..

[12:41] Kennylex Luckless: Thank god for block function, butt LL should get temp block and block user audio as right klick option

[12:42] ANSI Soderstrom: so scripting should be a licened function also

[12:42] Rex Cronon: ansi. u need no license. ll already owns everything and can do whatever it wants with it:(

[12:42] ANSI Soderstrom: -.-

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt: ANSI, your proposal is going to put us straight on the road to moar "FIC" drama.

[12:43] Skills Hak: oh man i miss prok, she would have made a lenghty blogpost about such a suggestion

[12:43] Talarus Luan: heh

[12:43] Rex Cronon: she made

[12:43] Rex Cronon: not so long though

[12:43] Ima Mechanique: what happened to her?

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt: There's already enough prokanoia in SL, we don't need decisions that'll fan itsflames.

[12:43] Skills Hak: she got threatened by LL Legal to cut the BS

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt: its flames*

[12:43] Rex Cronon: rl

[12:43] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, yeah... we're not going to be changing the ObjectAdd packet format.

[12:44] Talarus Luan: btw, SCR-4 is still on my wish list. :D

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt: She has one? O.O

[12:44] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I was thinking you could make a new packet and eventually retire the current one

[12:44] Jonathan Yap: But if not that, then do you have any ideas how to proceed?

[12:44] Simon Linden: Jonathan - I think that would need some work converting the message to a new type or a capability

[12:44] Andrew Linden: my brainstorm on that idea would be...

[12:45] Andrew Linden: create a new Cap that allows a viewer to specify and query what its current default permissions are

[12:45] Andrew Linden: and then apply those perms to anything created by AddObject

[12:46] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, the problem is the viewer has no way to tell what is a newly made object vs. one being rezzed from inventory (in wich case the default perms should not be applied)

[12:46] Talarus Luan: Oh, and any hope of getting materials added to SetPrimitiveParams?

[12:46] Andrew Linden: actually the viewer does... the viewer sends the AddObject message

[12:47] Andrew Linden: AddObject is one of the few ways to create a truly new prim...

[12:47] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm Jonathan, have you looked at how Firestorm handles that? We can create default prims with any perms we choose.

[12:47] Andrew Linden: er... maybe it is the only way

[12:47] Jonathan Yap: yes whirly, it is a terrible hack solution FS uses

[12:47] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I don't think the viewer has a UUID when it sends the message to the server

[12:48] Andrew Linden: no it doesn't have a UUID yet

[12:48] Andrew Linden: why is the UUID necessary?

[12:48] Andrew Linden: what I was thinking was... the viewer first tells the simulator what its default perms should be

[12:48] Jonathan Yap: If the viewer can't send the default permissions in the Add packet then it has to apply them when the object appears in the scene

[12:49] Andrew Linden: thereafter any new prim created by AddObject would inherit those perms

[12:49] Andrew Linden: until the viewer specified other perms

[12:49] Jonathan Yap: and that is where the problem of not knowing if the object is oming from inventory crops up

[12:49] Skills Hak: what's wrong with the fs solution

[12:49] Skills Hak: it's been done like that since emerald days

[12:49] Skills Hak: simply update the object post rez

[12:50] Jonathan Yap: I was told by the developer not to use that solution, it was too, hmm, ugly

[12:50] Simon Linden: I wonder if we could switch that to a TCP/IP message and then extend it

[12:50] Skills Hak: not sure how's that ugly

[12:50] Jonathan Yap: Currently there is no way to know if an object is new or being pulled from inventory

[12:51] Andrew Linden: In my scenario the viewer doesn't need the UUID because the perms are not applied after the object is created... they are applied the moment it is created.

[12:51] Skills Hak: the viewer knows

[12:51] Andrew Linden: I think the only way to create a totally fresh new prim is AddObject.

[12:51] Rex Cronon: i think things have to be checked server side. the viewer can fake things

[12:52] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, as time is running out and this is a little complicated maybe better to do this in an email -- I will send you a note and CC to Oz

[12:52] Andrew Linden: hrm.. maybe I'm mistaken what AddObject actually does

[12:52] Skills Hak: naw that code's been pretty safe since 08 ;)

[12:52] Andrew Linden: I'll go look at the code...

[12:53] Andrew Linden: Oh I see... there is no AddObject message

[12:53] Andrew Linden: I was confusing it with another...

[12:53] Talarus Luan: <.<

[12:53] Jonathan Yap: Yes, it is ObjectAdd

[12:54] Skills Hak:

[12:54] Jonathan Yap: look in lltoolplacer.cpp

[12:54] Andrew Linden: ah yes, ObjectAdd, sorry

[12:54] Skills Hak: Simulator will assign ID and send message back to signal

[12:55] Andrew Linden: yup, that is the main way to create a new prim, and the viewer definitely knows about it because it sends the message

[12:55] Andrew Linden: but perhaps I'm still confused....

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:56] Jonathan Yap: I'll try to write up an email since time is running out here

[12:56] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, you want to be able to build stuff with some specific perms, right?

[12:56] Jonathan Yap: Thank you

[12:56] Jonathan Yap: yes, to apply default perms for new items

[12:56] Andrew Linden: where "build" means creating new prims, not rezzing stuff from inventory

[12:56] Jonathan Yap: correct

[12:57] Andrew Linden: ok, so what is wrong with my scenario?

[12:57] Simon Linden: I have a few things if people want to experiment with the latest viewer in large crowds ... here are some debug settings to try:

RenderAutoMuteFunctions 7

RenderAutoMuteRenderWeightLimit 300

RenderAutoMuteSurfaceAreaLimit 150

RenderAutoMuteByteLimit 0

[12:57] Andrew Linden: where the viewer basically says...

[12:57] Skills Hak: /profilegsaved 10

[12:57] Simon Linden: (sorry for the side-tracking, I wanted to throw that out before the end of the meeting)

[12:57] Andrew Linden: for all new prims please make the perms this: blah blah blah

[12:57] Andrew Linden: and then you make some prims

[12:58] Simon Linden: ah, that weight should be 300000

[12:58] Simon Linden: RenderAutoMuteRenderWeightLimit 300000

[12:58] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, the ObjectAdd packet doesn't allow that, and so the other approach is when a new object appears in the scene, that would be the other chance at setting/changing permissions

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle: errr most people just turned to colouted blobs on those settings :D

[12:58] Talarus Luan: Oh, does that derender heavy avatars?

[12:58] Jonathan Yap: but there is now easy way to tell a new object from one pulled from inv

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle: *coloured

[12:59] Jonathan Yap: *no

[12:59] Simon Linden: It puts them in the "simple imposter" mode which is a basic colored shape

[12:59] Andrew Linden: Jonathan, in my scenario the specified perms would only be applied to prims that were made by ObjectAdd

[12:59] Jenna Felton: thanks Simon. There are 4 viewers, what viewer is that, and also what viewer is the one for access rules checking?

[12:59] Rex Cronon: lol. am i an iron blob whirly?

[12:59] Andrew Linden: but would be applied to ALL such prims

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: Oh I was set at 300, nm hehe

[12:59] Simon Linden: The current release LL one - same as the maintenance build

[12:59] Andrew Linden: until the specified prims were changed

[12:59] GEE McAuley: I have a quick question relating to Prim linking. An old issue but maybe due to some sim changes this can be revisited.

[12:59] Jenna Felton: ok

[12:59] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, I am missing how to tell an object was created by ObjectAdd

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Jonathan Yap: ObjectAdd is sent to the server, and some time later an object appears in the scene, but how to link those 2 events?

[13:00] Andrew Linden: ok Jonathan, you can email me if you like

[13:00] Jonathan Yap: ok, thanks for your time & help

[13:00] Andrew Linden: or we can talk about it more next week

[13:00] GEE McAuley: Is it possible that we can extend the prim linking fro 50+/- m to 100m?\

[13:00] Skills Hak: rez from inv would be RezObject

[13:01] Andrew Linden: GEE, go ahead with your question about prim linking

[13:01] Simon Linden: Higher prim linking gets into some weird update issues because parts are so far from the root prim

[13:01] Andrew Linden: oh I see the question was already asked...

[13:02] Talarus Luan: RenderAutoMute setting don't appear to do anything..

[13:02] Skills Hak: mm 100m chat range

[13:02] Andrew Linden: GEE... technically possible... and less of a problem now that we've fixed some parcel overlap issues

[13:02] GEE McAuley: Being that the owner of a parcel can prevent items hanging over from an adjacent parcel. Can this be revisited? It would save having to package things

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle: I still see quite a few imposters at those settings.

[13:02] Simon Linden: oh, also crank down your "max number of non-imposter avatar" graphics preference

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle: They annoying flash between the colouted avatars & looking normal too

[13:02] Andrew Linden: but still a problem for cross-region collisions (which don't exist)

[13:03] Andrew Linden: hrm... less of a problem with some of the new interestlist stuff that I've been working on

[13:03] Talarus Luan: I have to turn on avatar impostors for that to work, right?

[13:03] Skills Hak: [12:57:34] DebugShowAvatarRenderInfo = 130627 calls

[13:03] Skills Hak: lol

[13:03] Skills Hak: in one hour

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle: I don't think this is a feature Id leave enabled for everyday use. Its a bit annoying

[13:03] Andrew Linden: but larger link distances might still introduce more weirdness on scene load

[13:03] Ima Mechanique: gotta run. Thanks for the meeting guys. bye all

[13:04] Skills Hak: gotta cache them gsaveds

[13:04] Rex Cronon: tc ima

[13:04] GEE McAuley: TC Ima

[13:04] Andrew Linden: GEE, I wouldn't want to increase that distance yet. Primarily for the no-collisions-across-region-boundaries problem

[13:04] Simon Linden: I need to get going too ... Thanks everyone for coming today

[13:05] GEE McAuley: TC Simon

[13:05] Andrew Linden: which bothers me, but maybe not everybody else as much

[13:05] Talarus Luan: kk ciao Simon

[13:05] ANSI Soderstrom: thanks for watching

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon.

[13:05] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks Lindens

[13:05] Qie Niangao: Yeah, thanks Simon, Andrew, Baker... all... have fun!

[13:05] GEE McAuley: Anything in the future for this Andrew?

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Andrew.

[13:05] Simon Linden: See you next time

[13:05] Rex Cronon: tc simon

[13:05] Andrew Linden: GEE, not in the near future I think.

[13:05] Mona Eberhardt: thanks Lindens

[13:05] Mona Eberhardt: See you Simon, Andrew, Baker.

[13:06] Baker Linden: thanks for coming everyone!

[13:06] Rex Cronon: tc baker

[13:06] Jenna Felton: thank you lindens

[13:06] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Baker.

[13:06] Baker Linden: Time to get back to banning people from my group! MWA HA HA HA

[13:06] Kennylex Luckless: ... and Higgs got the Noble prize.

[13:06] GEE McAuley: Okis. Just would be a great to eliminate having to throw a build into a box. Thanks for the reply on that though.


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