User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Aug 27

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  • [10:58] Which Linden: Hi there, people of above-average attractiveness!
  • [10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which!
  • [10:58] Morgaine Dinova: LOL
  • [10:59] Imaze Rhiano: hi which...
  • [10:59] Which Linden: Hi!
  • [11:00] Latif Khalifa: hi all
  • [11:00] Which Linden: I've entered the phase of my project where we are collecting one-in-a-million bugs
  • [11:00] Which Linden: Hi Latif
  • [11:00] Latif Khalifa: what project is that?
  • [11:00] Imaze Rhiano: what project is that?
  • [11:00] Which Linden: L$ backend
  • [11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Shouldn't the 1 in 10 and 1 in 100 bugs be fixed first? ;-)
  • [11:01] Which Linden: yeah we fixed all those already
  • [11:01] Latif Khalifa: so you have been stealing my partner's money?
  • [11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Latif
  • [11:01] Latif Khalifa: lol
  • [11:01] Which Linden: so we are left with ones that happen rarely
  • [11:01] Which Linden: yes, so, yeah weird ones
  • [11:01] Latif Khalifa: my partner lost 150000 lindens
  • [11:02] Imaze Rhiano: bug hunting is sometimes weird... generally it takes more time to hunt and fix them than write new code...
  • [11:02] Which Linden: actually lost, or just displayed incorrectly?
  • [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Which: if you think you're in the 1:10^6 area of bug fixing, you're not monitoring well enough ;-)
  • [11:02] Latif Khalifa: Which she had L$215,105
  • [11:02] Latif Khalifa: got payed $83 from my object in transaction 1869751606
  • [11:03] Latif Khalifa: the next ballance was L$67,654
  • [11:03] Which Linden: Yeah, that's just a display error, that wasn't her actual balance
  • [11:03] Which Linden: Am looking at that bug right now
  • [11:03] Latif Khalifa: it shows in the transaction history as well, she almost had a heart attack when that happened lol
  • [11:04] Which Linden: her actual balance was correct, but somehow the logging subsystem thought that her end balance wasn't what it actually was
  • [11:04] Which Linden: her next transaction shows the correct end balance
  • [11:04] Which Linden: (correct globally, not correct relative to the amount transferred in it)
  • [11:04] Latif Khalifa: yes, I talked to Kelly atm, he said after relog the viewer should display the correct ballance
  • [11:04] Which Linden: yeah
  • [11:05] Which Linden: so, still trying to figure out what caused it, perhaps it's something we're doing with the database differently
  • [11:05] Latif Khalifa: and it did... still very unnerving to have that happen ;)
  • [11:05] Which Linden: yeah....totally. Sorry about that
  • [11:05] Which Linden: also looking at SVC-4182, which is more disturbing because it's not just a display issue
  • [11:06] Latif Khalifa: oh well, that was the 3rd thing of the trifecta linden unleashed on me this week lol
  • [11:06] Which Linden: how often is that happening?
  • [11:06] Which Linden: I am going to write a script to detect that on the backend, but it'd be nice to know how much to expect
  • [11:06] Latif Khalifa: the other two things were not related to transactions... just LL testing my pain treshhold lol
  • [11:07] Which Linden: oh...you haven't seen the double transactions?
  • [11:07] Which Linden: Oh well, someone else's problem then. :-P
  • [11:08] Latif Khalifa: hahaha, yeah Dee is on the other thing... they marked my new estate mainland so people buying parcels were being uprgraded to premiun account when buying land there :P
  • [11:08] Which Linden: Oh just wanted to reiterate: if you think that there's something wrong with your L$, either relog the viewer, or hit the website to check it, since there are many ways for the viewer to get temporarily confused.
  • [11:08] Which Linden: And also report it, cause it sucks to have incorrect viewer balances
  • [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: How about fixing the viewer?
  • [11:09] Which Linden: yeah, that's longer-term
  • [11:09] Morgaine Dinova: ROFL
  • [11:09] Which Linden: have to change a lot of assumptions
  • [11:09] Which Linden: for example, when you pay an object now, the viewer immediately deducts the payment amount from your balance before even sending the message
  • [11:09] Which Linden: then if it doesn't go through, the server has to correct the viewer's balance
  • [11:10] Morgaine Dinova: Which: that response was seriously bad. People seeing wrong balances in the viewer is not a minor thing. Pretty insensitive/callous.
  • [11:10] Which Linden: the viewer should be more proactive about that sort of thing
  • [11:10] Which Linden: I'm sorry that you're not happy with the reality of the situation, but I really can't fix the viewer immediately. :-)
  • [11:11] Latif Khalifa: but we get new marketing friendly sl 2.0 instead :P
  • [11:11] Which Linden: Hooray!
  • [11:11] Latif Khalifa: hahaha
  • [11:11] Morgaine Dinova: Well, nothing more needs saying. I think that speaks for itself.
  • [11:12] Morgaine Dinova: A technical topic would be useful at this point.
  • [11:12] Latif Khalifa: I think it would be great if M held office hours, I'm duying to ask him "What's the thinking behind developing SL 2.0 behind the closed doors" ;)
  • [11:12] Imaze Rhiano: might be just easier to throw away all viewer code and start from clean
  • [11:12] Which Linden: Heh, yeah, didn't we used to do town halls every so often?
  • [11:13] Aimee Trescothick: yeah
  • [11:13] Latif Khalifa: that was back in Cory days
  • [11:13] Which Linden: Yes we're actually rewriting the viewer in Scala :-P
  • [11:13] Latif Khalifa: hahaha
  • [11:13] lonetorus Habilis: yeah, townhall was great, but i think sl is too large now
  • [11:13] Which Linden: It's scalable, right? It's right in the name!
  • [11:13] Imaze Rhiano: town halls?
  • [11:14] Morgaine Dinova: That wouldn't actually be so daft. The viewer should be written in a safe langage, with only the inner hotspots like rendering code done in C++.
  • [11:14] lonetorus Habilis: ah, the townhall groups dont apear in search any more
  • [11:14] Aimee Trescothick: those size meetings tend to attract all the loonies too
  • [11:14] Which Linden: I think the townhalls probably got to be unscaleable themselves
  • [11:15] Which Linden: I remember it was a lot of shouting and "get in the queue sir"
  • [11:15] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, it ends up more process than production
  • [11:15] Which Linden: Hey Aimee, wanted to say that was an awesome image from the llmedia api
  • [11:15] Aimee Trescothick: thanks :)
  • [11:15] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee++
  • [11:15] Aimee Trescothick: there will be video to follow at some point
  • [11:16] Imaze Rhiano: well... I am going to sauna... bye bye
  • [11:16] Aimee Trescothick: but I'm still recovering from the aftermath of the last youtube video I published lol
  • [11:16] Which Linden: have an awesome time
  • [11:16] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: so after VNC, what next? :-)))
  • [11:16] Which Linden: aftermath?
  • [11:16] Morgaine Dinova: See you Imaze
  • [11:16] Aimee Trescothick: lol
  • [11:16] Latif Khalifa: Which, which brings me to another pet peeve of mine, allow uri field in TextureEntry struct and be done with it, none of this sily parcel media thing anymore ;)
  • [11:16] Aimee Trescothick: generated so much interest I haven't been able to get any work done this week
  • [11:17] Which Linden: well that's a problem of success, ain't it aimee? :-)
  • [11:17] Aimee Trescothick: lol
  • [11:17] Which Linden: Latif: you mean url on a prim? I think we've been batting that around for approximately a hundred years by now
  • [11:17] Aimee Trescothick: yeah, I knew it was going to be popular, I had no idea HOW popular
  • [11:18] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: yeah, 10 proposals of marriage a day can be quite draining ;-)
  • [11:18] Which Linden: The roadmap read: "1. awaken Great Old Ones 2. url on a prim"
  • [11:18] Latif Khalifa: yes, its time to stop and implement it already, with these media plugins, one media texture per parcel is going to be even bigger pita than it is now
  • [11:18] Which Linden: ha ha ha, don't you have to pay 250 L$ for a marriage proposal?
  • [11:19] Latif Khalifa: Which, no marriage is free, divorce is 25 $L lol
  • [11:19] Aimee Trescothick: lol
  • [11:19] Morgaine Dinova: haha
  • [11:19] Which Linden: how puritan of us
  • [11:19] lonetorus Habilis: what if you dont have 25?
  • [11:19] Which Linden:  :-)
  • [11:19] Latif Khalifa: hahaha
  • [11:19] Latif Khalifa: lonetorus, then you're stuck :P
  • [11:19] lonetorus Habilis: and camping 25L these days is harder than ever XD
  • [11:20] Morgaine Dinova: If you lack the cash, you're stuck with polygamy.
  • [11:20] Latif Khalifa: go camp or something... oh wait, that's illegal now
  • [11:20] Which Linden: the lawyer-bots need oil, you know
  • [11:20] Which Linden: actually it kinda makes sense as a throttle -- if it was free there would be lots more spouse-making and spouse-breaking
  • [11:20] Latif Khalifa: yeah
  • [11:20] Which Linden: but since it costs to break it up, it isn't a cost for people who just want to show their love
  • [11:21] Which Linden: but....we missed out on the "it's complicated" meme, that's for sure
  • [11:21] lonetorus Habilis: [1]
  • [11:21] lonetorus Habilis: (enable multiple partners)
  • [11:21] Which Linden: hah
  • [11:21] Latif Khalifa: haha
  • [11:21] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [11:22] Which Linden: lotta votes on that
  • [11:22] lonetorus Habilis: im sure its "ok" in some sl communities
  • [11:23] Morgaine Dinova: It's a virtual world. What's "OK" in RL and here don't necessarily have to track each other.
  • [11:23] lonetorus Habilis: i agree, i would be cool with polygami in sl
  • [11:23] Latif Khalifa: I'm afraid that' going nowhere, now with M at the helm, SL is in some areas becoming more restricted than RL. For example the new (TM) rules say that you cannot sell Elvis Presley avatar without obtaining consent from his estate
  • [11:23] Which Linden: The problem is, partnering is like many of our features; hastily implemented back in the day with the plan of either improving it radically if it took off, or removing it altogether
  • [11:24] Latif Khalifa: If that restriction existed in RL half of the costume shops would have to be closed for selling Elvis or Merylin outfits for costume parties
  • [11:24] Which Linden: Well I imagine it was technically illegal to sell images of The King without his permission in the past too
  • [11:24] lonetorus Habilis: which, btw, your bamboo inspired me to sculpt some
  • [11:25] Which Linden: Really? Does it look good?
  • [11:25] lonetorus Habilis: i think so
  • [11:25] Which Linden: oh lemme rez it
  • [11:25] lonetorus Habilis: gave you Sculpted bamboo, builders kit, copy/mod (boxed).
  • [11:25] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, so much for the "Your world, your imagination". Instead, all the restrictions of RL are slowly seeping in. Or quickly.
  • [11:25] Latif Khalifa: SL should declare independence and ask for admitance to the UN lol
  • [11:26] lonetorus Habilis: that box is probbaly bitten by the bulk permission bug :/
  • [11:26] Which Linden: ha ha ha
  • [11:26] Morgaine Dinova: UN is RL. But no doubt there will be federations of VWs too in the future.
  • [11:26] Which Linden: I mean, that's sad actually
  • [11:26] Which Linden: people are working on that BTW
  • [11:27] Which Linden: am I an idiot? I can't drag the contents out onto the ground
  • [11:28] Which Linden: it seems to think I am the owner
  • [11:28] lonetorus Habilis: o_O
  • [11:28] lonetorus Habilis: brb, ill lift a assembled set from home
  • [11:28] Latif Khalifa: its black magic, sometimes it works,sometimes it doesn't
  • [11:28] Morgaine Dinova: What's the most closed "walled country" around in RL atm, with borders firmly closed? Because that's what SL is currently.
  • [11:29] lonetorus Habilis: gave you sculpted bamboo.
  • [11:29] lonetorus Habilis: there, try that
  • [11:29] Which Linden: oh wow that looks quite good
  • [11:29] JayR Cela: North Korea / mabey ?
  • [11:29] Which Linden: much more realistic and prim-conserving
  • [11:30] lonetorus Habilis: yeah, a step up from alpha billboards
  • [11:30] Which Linden: the main reason that there's not much else on my land is cause 80% of my prim limit is eaten up by my bamboo
  • [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: I expect North Korea trades with some nations
  • [11:30] lonetorus Habilis: morg, yeah, weapons :)
  • [11:30] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yeah, lots of trade there :-)
  • [11:31] Which Linden: man, thanks for showing me those, lonetorus, very inspiring
  • [11:31] lonetorus Habilis: gave you sculpt grass.
  • [11:32] Latif Khalifa: people do funky things with sculpties
  • [11:32] Which Linden: gonna take a screenshot
  • [11:32] Latif Khalifa: i've seen like 6 palms in 1 prim
  • [11:33] lonetorus Habilis: yeah, prims are fun to play with, i like how limited they are, compared to full mesh
  • [11:33] Which Linden: ok that took me way too long
  • [11:34] Latif Khalifa: gave you 7th cube - 62 cubes in 1 sculpt.
  • [11:34] lonetorus Habilis: ah, and sorry, did not mean to highjack the OH
  • [11:34] lonetorus Habilis: so whats on the agenda
  • [11:34] Which Linden: well, L$ was on the agenda
  • [11:34] lonetorus Habilis: hah, thats my 62 cube thing
  • [11:34] Which Linden: but we already know what's up there
  • [11:34] lonetorus Habilis: when oblongs where introduced
  • [11:34] Latif Khalifa: hehehe
  • [11:34] JayR Cela: what about L$
  • [11:35] Which Linden: JayR: L$ got a new backend, some bugs that occur rarely are on our radar
  • [11:36] JayR Cela: ahhh
  • [11:36] lonetorus Habilis: anyhting with a jira?
  • [11:36] Which Linden: those cubes are a thing of beauty
  • [11:36] lonetorus Habilis: actually i messed up, was supposed to be 64 cubes
  • [11:36] Which Linden: [2]
  • [11:36] JayR Cela: how about when are textures going to be converted over completly to http ?
  • [11:36] Which Linden: I don't know about that
  • [11:36] JayR Cela:  :(
  • [11:37] Latif Khalifa: oh i have seen the double transaction thing
  • [11:37] Which Linden: yeah.....I wish I knew more
  • [11:37] Latif Khalifa: svc.4182
  • [11:37] JayR Cela: i wish they would speed the transition up a bit
  • [11:38] Which Linden: we would be a lot faster if we either a) stopped all work and wrote assloads of automated tests, or b) just broke everything in the quest for better architecture
  • [11:38] Which Linden: but neither is really a great idea so we're just moving slowly ahead on all fronts
  • [11:38] Which Linden: little changes, compounded, will add up to something great at the end
  • [11:39] lonetorus Habilis: hopefully before 2027
  • [11:39] Morgaine Dinova: Which is why the sensible approach would be to be working on a parallel replacement infrastructure, instead of either a) or b).
  • [11:39] Latif Khalifa: if politics/great marketing ideas don't interfere from the top ;)
  • [11:39] Imaze Rhiano: back
  • [11:40] Morgaine Dinova: Wb Imaze
  • [11:40] Which Linden: so I'm wondering, on the duplicate transactions, if somehow we have some sort of duplicate detection code that we're bypassing now
  • [11:40] Which Linden: that would be a terrible hak
  • [11:41] Latif Khalifa: the whole LSL money() event is one big mess
  • [11:41] Which Linden: yeah, it sucks that it doesn't have confirmation
  • [11:41] Latif Khalifa: all failure modes that you could think of (and a few extra) occur
  • [11:41] Which Linden: ha ha yeah
  • [11:41] JayR Cela: sounds like an errant repeating loop function may be the culpret
  • [11:42] Which Linden: knowing that makes coding a real treat, let me tell you
  • [11:42] Latif Khalifa: Which, the worst one is being, money gets transacted, but money() event is never called
  • [11:42] Which Linden: can't make any assumptions about anything
  • [11:42] Which Linden: oh yeah.....I was thinking llgivemoney but money() is kinda the same
  • [11:42] Latif Khalifa: money() is worse... customers saying you stole my money, i payed and nothing was delivered
  • [11:43] Which Linden:  :-(
  • [11:43] Which Linden: that code is very complicated, sadly
  • [11:43] Latif Khalifa: but there linden reputation for "stability" helps lol
  • [11:43] Which Linden: heh
  • [11:44] Latif Khalifa: i just say, well you know how realiable SL is, nothing i can do about it, most people nod and move on ;)
  • [11:44] Which Linden: as part of my project we only touched as little of it as we could, in order to insert our new backend
  • [11:44] lonetorus Habilis: we just redeliver, we have no way to confirm it, as transaction histoy is seems incomplete or maxed out, (seems to drop entries in the excel file when we have about 2-3 days worth of transactions
  • [11:44] Which Linden: excel files have a row limit of 65536
  • [11:45] Morgaine Dinova: Wasn't CHTTP escrow going to be handling that?
  • [11:45] Which Linden: morgaine: that's the end goal
  • [11:45] Which Linden: but the simulator will still be the weakest link
  • [11:45] Latif Khalifa: lonetorus, I just redeliver too, I have no way of knowing if they were telling the truth
  • [11:46] Which Linden: can't you check your own transaction history to see if you got L$ from the person?
  • [11:46] Which Linden: I guess you don't know what it's for
  • [11:46] Which Linden: But....could help in some cases
  • [11:46] Which Linden: (assuming you can actually download your own history)
  • [11:47] Latif Khalifa: Which, if I say $3000 no copy item... and that person comes and claims they nevrer got it, i can confirm that they have payed, but have now way of telling if they genuenly didn't get or are scamming me for a second free copy
  • [11:47] Latif Khalifa: sell
  • [11:47] lonetorus Habilis: which, well i dunno, excel files are incomlete, and we do well over 500 transactions a day, though excel files seem more complete when fetched for just 1-2 days, instead of generating for a longer time span, also seeing the description field missing sometimes, so we cnt see what the transaction was for)
  • [11:47] Which Linden: Latif: oh....I see
  • [11:48] lonetorus Habilis: im currently building our own vendor backend, to keep track of this stuff, but hearing money() is broken does not help
  • [11:49] Latif Khalifa: lonetorus, its at peek concurency when you get those dreadful "transaction is stale" message
  • [11:49] Which Linden: Yeah....if anything can go wrong, it totally will :-(
  • [11:49] Which Linden: Latif: do those still happen?
  • [11:50] Latif Khalifa: i have not seen them in couple of months i guess
  • [11:50] Which Linden: It's possible they are replaced with a different error message now
  • [11:50] Latif Khalifa: but transations still timeout from time to time when db load goeas overboard
  • [11:50] Which Linden: Yeah, working on that too; eventually L$ will be