User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Dec 18

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

	Saijanai Kuhn:	was just going to issue a call for all Groupies to wear there tags. Psycholigcal intimidation
	Jason Swain:	Hello Zero
	Rex Cronon:	especially when u see the body and clothes ok, but the eyes are gray
	Saijanai Kuhn:	ho, Hi Zero
	Zha Ewry worries that one day, we will see an airplane fly in through the roof on "inbound zero"
	Head Replacement:	Hi zero
	Neas Bade:	hey zero
	Zero Linden:	Intimidation?
	Zero Linden:	Hello all
	Jarod Godel:	I worry that Zero devides himself too much
	Zha Ewry:	Afternoon, Zero.
	Penumbro Eclipse:	hello
	Rex Cronon:	hi zero
	Jurin Juran:	wb gigs
	Zero Linden:	Indeed - I do out of necessity
	Gigs Taggart:	thanks
	Saijanai Kuhn:	intervention time for Linden Labs...
	Head Replacement:	Zero, why is it that sometimes you need to wait x minutes before you can login again? My poor alt Tao is waiting in that queue :-)
	Penumbro Eclipse:	I guess that means you are undefined!
	Bounced Offcourse says nothing.. on that topic..
	Penumbro Eclipse tries fervently to divide by zero, but fails!
	Zero Linden:	I have people managerial responsibility, I assist the exec. staff on strategy development, I work with non-dev. parts of the company on developing products, I work inside dev. on architecture
	Zero Linden:	AND - I work with you!
	Zha Ewry grins
	Head Replacement:	thisi actually might be the topic today ;-)
	Zha Ewry:	So.. can we get the RC and Windlight clients fixed to support login to OpenSim again :_)
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Show and tell time, Zero. Got a python bot almost working
	Zero Linden:	There is a fair bit of interlock in the system to ensure that you don't log in while another region thinks you are still in world
	Zero Linden:	being in twice would break many many things
	sculpt test:	BlŒ bŠr rššda
	Zero Linden:	Alas, writing out attachements is a significant burden when you log out
	Saijanai Kuhn:	That poor ruthed clone of me is a python script
	Head Replacement:	ic
	Saijanai Kuhn:	pure python no libsl
	Bounced Offcourse:	hehe, then .. when you eventually did get logged out.. it might log your new login out too :P
	Zero Linden:	Sometimes, the presence entry gets stuck -
	Head Replacement:	now at least I know why it happens, it's still sometimes annoying and Head has to go to all those office hours instead of Tao ;-)
	Zero Linden:	consider what happens if the region you are logging out from crashes
	Zero Linden:	or worse, hangs for a while
	Seifert Surface:	wouldnt it be nice if the timeout was related to how much attachments data there actually is, rather than a default 5 minutes or so...
	Head Replacement:	actually it wouldn't happen if the viewer wouldn't crash ;-)
	Zha Ewry:	Hangs is *much* worse
	Zero Linden:	while the system is waiting to see if the hung process comes back to life (of course we'd rather not kill it)
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero, right now this bot is getting 1900 packets while the server waits for the last login step
	Seifert Surface:	then people would realise perhaps how much data theyre carrying around
	Zero Linden:	if you were in the middle of being logged off... well, the system just has to wait before letting you back in
	Head Replacement will try to crash earlier before office hours then ;-)
	Zero Linden:	One project that has been on hold for ages would enable detection of when attachement data could be just re-written, or even better yet, not written at all
	Stipe Gorbunov:	hay
	Zero Linden:	we've talked about a call that script could make that would signal - "I have no crucial state" - which would
	Zero Linden:	mean that that script needn't be written out on logout - we'd just drop it
	Zero Linden:	when you log in, you'd get the last state
	Zero Linden:	again
	Zero Linden:	for most things like HUDs and AOs, this is just fine
	Zero Linden:	All - welcome to my office hours
	Zero Linden:	as always - transcript -> wiki => speak = open
	Head Replacement:	I wonder how much we need to know about that when it comes to region domain etc. :-)
	Penumbro Eclipse:	This is very, very interesting, but RL beckons. Thanks all!
	Head Replacement:	cya Penumbro
	Bounced Offcourse:	What's the relationship between estates and regions? :D
	Rex Cronon:	bye penumbro
	Zero Linden:	Bit of scheduling: Today and Thursday are the last office hours
	Zero Linden:	until January
	Jarod Godel:	awww
	Head Replacement:	I nearly guessed that much ;-)
	Bounced Offcourse:	ooh. okay
	Zero Linden:	specifically January 8th
	Zero Linden:	I'll be out for two weeks
	Harleen Gretzky:	An esate i a group of region(s)
	Zero Linden:	Actually - I'm not going anywhere: vacation at home - the best kind ---
	Jarod Godel:	First Christmas with a kid?
	Head Replacement:	I wish I would have 2 weeks at home...
	Zero Linden:	if you see my alt in world - feel free to say hello - but I won't be talkin' shop!
	Saijanai Kuhn:	spring cleaning in the mdidle of winter
	Zha Ewry nods
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Go Go Igo!
	Zha Ewry:	Grab your alt and play some Go
	Zero Linden:	Jarod - no - my son is 6 and we had a foster kid before him - so experienced in "it is all unwrapped by 5am"
	Zha Ewry grins
	Bounced Offcourse:	hehe, isn't it that way everywhere?
	Zero Linden:	So now, estates? regions? was there a question there?
	Bounced Offcourse:	Well.. how would you describe an estate
	Zha Ewry:	You shoiuld have had a few years of "You can't come out of the bedroom until *THIS* number is bigger than 6"
	Head Replacement:	actually I think some of us would like to talk about collaboration and documentation
	Head Replacement:	and how AWG goes on
	Saijanai Kuhn picks his head up from restling with UDP packets
	Bounced Offcourse leaves it up to the group to decide :D
	Zha Ewry:	And. Yes. Collaboration, and.. in particular, documentation and stable interface points, or the lack of the same
	Head Replacement:	and what the process is or could be
	Saijanai Kuhn:	or is supposed to be but isn't
	Head Replacement:	main problem is I think that we all are trying to figure out a) how things work today and b) how they migth then work tomorrow. Example these days is login
	Saijanai Kuhn:	...and why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings.
	Saijanai Kuhn:	and estalbishing presence
	Zero Linden:	well, in SL pigs DO have wings, and the sea is boiling hot because it is very compute intensive to render
	Saijanai Kuhn:	pointing to bot that gets 1900 packets while the server waits for last message to establish presence
	Rex Cronon:	forget the pigs, login more interesting
	Zha Ewry:	And in particular, wha's the intended behairo of the region simulators on login, what actually happens, and what's the path forward to even bgin to talk coherently
	Head Replacement:	and at least I personally feel that being able to ask questions 2 times a week is not really sufficient to go along. At least I don't see that much progress being made that way as in fact most things seems mostly known to Lindens
	Zha Ewry:	about how to break out the agent part of the region code
	Jarod Godel:	Zero, how many Brazillians must your ocean kill?
	Zero Linden:	Well-
	Al Sonic thinks Jaron answered his own question.
	Al Sonic:	(typo on Jarod... not that it matters...)
	Zero Linden:	So I'll be brutally honest and say that indeed I agree with the assesment of how well things have gone to date
	Jarod Godel:	Al, I only slaughter words, not Brazilians. ;)
	Zero Linden:	I'm not set on any particular process or procedure - I see this sort of open community design to be a rather novel and new approach without many antecedants for me to point at
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero we want to help, but things can get very confusing...
	Zero Linden:	So, here are my thoughts - please take them as thoughts, not edicts, and recognize that now I'm speaking as one Linden, not all of Linden Lab
	Zero Linden:	One possible direction -
	Head Replacement:	It's also not to blame anybody of course it's just that it's hard to move somewhere if not totally doing some stuff out of the blue.
	Zero Linden:	Assuming I can muster several engineering resources internally to do this, we could have say two Lindens
	Zero Linden:	authoring proposed protocols, accepting input from you all, and modifying them as needed
	Zero Linden:	while, say, both a small group of Lindens implements this on a dev grid
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero, taking a step back. We need help understanding what goes on NOW before we can help design something new
	Zero Linden:	while, at the same time, one or more groups here (OpenSim and LibSL, say)
	Zero Linden:	implement them externally
	Zha Ewry:	That.. becomes.. anything but an open process
	Zha Ewry:	At the moment, we're getting a lot of pushback from OpenSim (with good reason)
	Rex Cronon:	almost anybody should be able to implement the network protocols if their description is available
	Zha Ewry:	about th new authetnication process, because it's gone that way
	Zha Ewry:	And.. in fact
	Neas Bade:	yeh, it would be reallly good to get some details on newauth out there, as well as the loginuri (or equiv) back in
	Zha Ewry:	the way it went was people pushed back hard on some details
	Zha Ewry:	and linden, so far, has responded to most of that feedback by
	Zha Ewry:	saying "Trust us"
	Jarod Godel:	Isn't that SL's motto for developer relations? (not to be glib...)
	Zero Linden:	Let's be fair about some things here
	Head Replacement:	for a start I'd like to have some Linden on IRC sometimes to be able to ask questions here and then.. like about login
	Zero Linden:	Linden Lab is busy trying to do two things
	Zero Linden:	1) Run an existing virtual world
	Zero Linden:	2) Transition to an open metaverse approach
	Zero Linden:	No matter how much we are committed to working on that second thing, the first is still there and will have to proceed
	Saijanai Kuhn:	sure, and has to be your top priority...
	Zero Linden:	There are 100 people or so in engineering, and at this time 99 of them are working on the current system
	Saijanai Kuhn:	BUT...
	Zha Ewry nods "Nobody is expectign otherwise"
	Zha Ewry:	Going out of business, is a bad plan for the open metaverse.
	Neas Bade:	Zero, no arguments there. The new auth issue ends up being quite a bit of a show stopper on the OpenSim front, as all the new clients can't be made to work with OpenSim
	Jarod Godel:	Agree with Zha here.
	Zero Linden:	AND - that current system is going to change without perfect input, or at times even any input, from the outside
	Rob Linden:	hi all (was double booked today)
	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey Rob
	Rex Cronon:	hi rob
	Zero Linden:	Not that we would like to have no input, but it is going to happen
	Malburns Writer:	Hi Rob
	Zha Ewry:	Afternoon Rob
	Saijanai Kuhn take a drink
	Head Replacement:	I think we are more talking about the output in terms of docs at least after the change ;-)
	Bounced Offcourse:	Greetings Rob
	Zero Linden:	The current system is, as all of you know, VERY squirlley and not really a good candidate for standardization
	Head Replacement:	Hi Rob!
	Zero Linden:	that LibSL and OpenSim work with it is a MAJOR testiment to those engineers talents
	Neas Bade:	So any ability to get OpenSim collaboration gets flushed pretty quickly if the client is no longer common ground
	Saijanai Kuhn admires packets flying by his screen. Yeah, squirreling (no offense Ms Wood)
	Zha Ewry nods "Tho, note, in this case, plenty of input was given, and some assurances of its being taken were given"
	Jarod Godel:	Zero, is there a reason you guys even ask for input? Not to be snide (I hope I don't sound that way) but I've nver seen Flickr or anyone ask "How do we fixup our API for you?" Would SL's open-ness go faster without the community nagging the engineers?
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Jarod: OPensource, Open Standards
	Head Replacement:	I think it's a good sign they ask for input, I'd also like flickr to do this ;-)
	Neas Bade:	not looking for perfect standards here, just enough enough to keep OpenSim interoperable.
	Zero Linden:	We ask for input because we really do care - and we really do believe that what the community does with our tool is important
	Head Replacement:	and in fact flickr of course receives feedback regarding their API
	Harleen Gretzky:	Why can't OpenSim support the new auth?
	Neas Bade:	I'm speaking about the very specific instance of new auth, not really anything broader at this point
	Head Replacement:	and in fact people work together with flickr to e.g. do things with them like OAuth
	Head Replacement:	but back to SL :)
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Neas, di you see the script Tao worked up?
	Rex Cronon:	aren't there lots of programmers in the community, jarod?
	Bounced Offcourse:	It can.. however, They're asking for more documentation on it.
	Neas Bade:	Harleen, 1) it isn't documented. 2) the Client has secondlife.com hard coded for login
	Bounced Offcourse:	.. to be able to implement it.
	Jarod Godel:	Rex, in the SL community or Flickr?
	Head Replacement:	I think the main problem is not my script here. libsl people know how to login
	Head Replacement:	the problem is simply that clients cannot be directed to some different login page if I understand this right
	Zero Linden:	I belive there is infact a command line option for that
	Zha Ewry the other problem is one of sheer communication
	Rex Cronon:	sl
	Zha Ewry:	There is in fact not, one yet
	Zero Linden:	if there isn't i know that internal group has planned for it
	Zha Ewry:	And. there have been repeated discussions on this
	Rob Linden:	we're all going to get better at collaborating over time. if you take these first awkward steps as a sign of how it's always going to be, then you'll get pretty depressed :)
	Saijanai Kuhn:
	in case anyone wonders how the new login works
	Neas Bade:	yeh, we could get around 1 as there has been some work on libsl.
	Head Replacement:	I think the opensim thing is one issue, the documentation issue is another one
	Neas Bade:	zero: it doesn't work in either of the RCs for sure
	Jarod Godel:	Rex, sure! I'm just throwing out a question. I love SL+community, but I was curious if it was the best option. Zero seems to say it is, so...
	Head Replacement:	like we might need to understand what actually happens between client and server today in order to not miss any important things
	Head Replacement:	so it's either docs we need or somebody to ask and we can write it down
	Head Replacement:	(a faster wiki would help though ;-) )
	Saijanai Kuhn:	bu t reverse engineering is fun
	Saijanai Kuhn:	!!!
	Head Replacement:	yes, if you have lots of time
	Zha Ewry looks at Saij funny
	Zha Ewry:	We all really do want to make this work
	Jarod Godel:	and a razor blade and the original developer
	Neas Bade:	so until there is a client drop that supports something equivalent to loginuri, there is some definite frustration, as there is no use in working out the bits of new auth and integrating them
	Rob Linden:	this may seem like a tangent, but it's not entirely:
	Zero Linden:	Okay - I'm going to go back to the team and talk with them about communication. I will try to get them to engague more
	Rex Cronon:	i wasn't comming down on u jarod, i just want to make sure what u mean:)
	Head Replacement:	like I said, I would like IRC best as I am not constantly in SL, I am not sure about Lindens or others here
	Zha Ewry:	Chuckle.
	Zha Ewry:	Doesn't look like a tangent to me
	Zero Linden:	Well - at this time LL cannot afford an engineer to sit in IRC all day
	Head Replacement:	some sort of sprint would of course also be nice
	Jarod Godel:	Rex, that's cool. I've found myself taking the opposite tack than i usually do a couple of times today...so, no worries.
	Zero Linden:	It is an excellent idea
	Head Replacement:	well, does not need to be all day
	Zero Linden:	And I think we should have support engineers of that sort
	Head Replacement:	but maybe more than 2 hours a week which are usually also filled with other stuff
	Jarod Godel:	Zero, what about Twitter?
	Zero Linden:	Well, Head - I'm pretty sure it would be a full time job - even if it is only 1/2 time in IRC - the other 1/2 time is going to be being sure they are up on the technology
	Head Replacement:	not sure twitter really is suited for that..
	Jarod Godel:	at least have engineer chat logs post there?
	Head Replacement:	but once we are up with technology we can help :)
	Saijanai Kuhn:	and it would be a good way to provide feedback when we try to apply existing docs (such as the y are) and they don't work, or do something flakey
	Rob Linden:	a number of us are on irc.efnet.org #opensl quite a bit
	Head Replacement:	or some other channel, does not need to be IRC
	Head Replacement:	like we maybe could use the mailing list ;-)
	Zero Linden:	I think, no matter what the channel, the issue is that you are asking for a resource to be your technical liason
	Zero Linden:	it is a completely reasonable request
	Head Replacement:	and then I also wonder how we go from here.. I have my basic login sitting here but I am not sure what to do with it now. How do we write this down would be one question
	Zero Linden:	In fact, I think I'm going to present this as something LL MUST do in the coming months
	Saijanai Kuhn:	and how to test it, etc
	Zha Ewry:	Well, its the intersection etween being able to read code, which often
	Neas Bade:	Rob, fwiw, we moved the #opensim* channels to freenode over the weekend, as we found a lot of host blocking on efnet
	Zha Ewry:	reads as "We hacked on the client until it worked"
	Neas Bade:	wasn't sure if you found us again yet
	Daaneth Kivioq:	more communications is a good thing - especially any method for use to communicate to you lindens about pressing issues
	Zha Ewry:	and being able to konw what is intended
	Saijanai Kuhn:	I've got my login almost working and I noticed a strange pathology when teh avatar isn't responding as the server obviously expects. Who do I tell about that?
	Head Replacement:	so I might try #opensl and #libsl more again maybe
	Gigs Taggart:	kelly's on opensl a lot but he stays pretty busy
	Head Replacement:	but of course at some point somebody who knows what the AWG needs might be good then
	Wyn Galbraith:	Does anyone know how to set up IRC in Trillian?
	Head Replacement:	well, I talked to Lindens in there but I wasn't always sure how busy they are and if I take their precious time away
	Jarod Godel:	At the risk of being dense, let's try to remember that getting this engineering liason likely means losing an active engineer.
	Jarod Godel:	Is that a trade-off that's going to help?
	Head Replacement:	of course it's always a resource problem
	Zero Linden:	Yes, it does
	Zha Ewry:	Well, the trade off, is getting the OpenSim, and the openSource
	Zha Ewry:	community engaged
	Rob Linden:	Jarod: precisely....some of these things are zero sum, unfortunately
	Head Replacement:	but I think LL is crucial here and if there are no resources for AWG then I don't see much future in an open project
	Jarod Godel:	I like docs as much as anyone (and examples!), but I'd rather SL get a protocol that was working and stable first
	Saijanai Kuhn:	and getting AWGroupies up to speed on understanding things
	Saijanai Kuhn:	cart before the horse, Jarod
	Daaneth Kivioq:	and kill fricking voice!
	Head Replacement:	Jarod: but then only LL can do that protocol
	Head Replacement:	and then we are again at this resource problem as somebody still has to write it down
	Saijanai Kuhn:	and if they can't document, is it really a protocol?
	Rob Linden:	one thing that doesn't have direct costs is working more transparently, and that's something that we'll be trying to get peopel to do more
	Jarod Godel:	if they get it working, then they'll have time to document it
	Zero Linden:	Actualy, voice is done primarily by an outside company- it takes very little engineering resources, and only microscopic server resources on our side
	Head Replacement:	indeed, if e.g. more discussions would be done more openly it would maybe also help
	Saijanai Kuhn:	no, protocols have to be documented first or its never a protocol
	Neas Bade:	jarod: you obviously have never worked in teh software industry :)
	Daaneth Kivioq:	then why does voice seem to cause so many problems?
	Jarod Godel:	Neas, only the software side of education
	Zha Ewry:	Not clear that it gets you an open one, Jarod, nor does it let OpenSim and LibSL.. and other players actually prove that it is a prortocol, not a set of softwar hwich happens to work otgether
	Head Replacement:	well, once it's coded there is little chance of docs ;-)
	Neas Bade agrees with Head
	Head Replacement:	and should they do that I think opensim and maybe AWGroupies might go another route in the meanwhile
	Zha Ewry:	Right now, SL doesn't really have a protocol, since they control both ends of the pipe, and can (and looking at the code do, tweak them somehwat at random
	Head Replacement:	well, maybe ;-)
	Jarod Godel:	Oh, wait. You mean code documentation! I thought you meant protocol documentation.
	Jarod Godel:	you're talking about /* comments */
	Zha Ewry:	They are, one and th4e same Jarod
	Neas Bade:	protocol documentation as well.
	Zha Ewry:	No, we're not talking about comments
	Saijanai Kuhn:	code can change but the protocol has to stay the same
	Zha Ewry:	A protocol, acutally needs a spec
	Saijanai Kuhn:	or be documented as changing
	Head Replacement:	well, at least for now it would help I think to understand login more
	Daaneth Kivioq:	or the new protocol has to be backwards compatible
	Zha Ewry:	One of the problems with "Read the code" for protocols
	Zha Ewry:	is that it doesn't dfefine the prototocl, i defines one possible prtocol, at the moemnt the code was written
	Zha Ewry:	And. in fact, worse, "As the engineeers managed to make it work"
	Head Replacement:	but in the end we of course need some closer collaboration because right now it does not fell that much like it. I am not sure though how this could look like
	Rex Cronon:	the protocol can have an optional extension that makes it backwards comptible
	Jarod Godel:	I guess I was thinking of it backwards.
	Saijanai Kuhn:	an example is that the seedcap (from what I understand from John Hurliman) has many caps available through it but in every case there is a UDP packet that does the same thing except TP
	Head Replacement:	I also wonder how the state of AWG at Linden Lab internally is
	Head Replacement:	is there work being done? discussions? planning?
	Saijanai Kuhn:	I can find the docs for teh UDP on the wiki though theyre not always accurate. There's NOTHING I can find on teh CAPS version. I didn't even know there were two versions
	Zha Ewry:	Well, Which and Co. are banging awayon c=http, and esroew
	Head Replacement:	I guess this UDP thing is historically because in the beginning there only was UDP ;-)
	Daaneth Kivioq:	the only caveat with extending a protocol, is that it can become cumbersome, and at some point you end up wanting to cut out the old stuff and force a migration
	Zha Ewry:	And.. if the rest of LL could doucment and be as transparent as which is.. there wouuld be a lot less complinaing
	Saijanai Kuhn:	thats what CAPS and the AWG are all about, Daaneth
	Head Replacement:	actually what Which etc. do seems to be quite open to me but I am not that much into the topic at the moment
	Head Replacement:	but status updates etc. are good to have and the commit-list is also helpful
	Head Replacement:	but I also understand that this is maybe not working for the LL server code
	Head Replacement:	but as said, I think a sprint would be great.. have a 1-2 day meeting, work on some code or ideas together and after that people will better understand what can be done
	Jarod Godel:	in-world flash conference?
	Head Replacement:	so come all to the SnowSprint in January ;-)
	Head Replacement:	well, not sure how to do it practically, i mostly was involved in RL sprints up to now
	Head Replacement:	(which have the additional socializing aspect)
	CSI:NY Toolbar:	Script run-time error
	CSI:NY Toolbar:	Stack-Heap Collision
	Neas Bade:	well, instead of trying to solve the grander issues here, I would try to focus on a specific instance like new auth. Making the loginuri a priority on the client so that the community can start playing with new auth implementations, and an hour of someones time to sketch out what is there on a wiki would be really helpful
	Daaneth Kivioq:	(LOL)
	Jason Swain:	lol
	Head Replacement:	yep, I also don't think that explaining login can be that much work
	Zha Ewry:	That.. and.. a discussion, on what is supposed to happen, one UDP packet into login, would be excellent firsts teps
	Head Replacement:	and what's important in that login process etc.
	Rex Cronon:	whoever has the csi thing, u need to get a new copy, your is broken, due to blitz(most likely)
	Zero Linden:	Zha - do you mean what currently happens?
	Saijanai Kuhn:	yeah, and what is supposed to happen if a mistake is made
	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'm not joking, Zero, about the client getting 1900 packets
	Zero Linden:	Okay - Concerns heard by me loud and clear. I agree with vast majority of what you are all asking for.
	Head Replacement:	a good idea for AWG is maybe to write down a usecase with all the exceptions
	Head Replacement:	but for this it also might be useful to know what's happening today
	Daaneth Kivioq:	Ideally, it should be a black box in the end
	Zero Linden:	I will take this to the larger organization immediatly. I will lobby for more....
	Head Replacement:	great
	Wyn Galbraith:	Thank you Zero.
	Rex Cronon:	yes. black boxes are nice
	Neas Bade:	awesome, thanks zero
	Zero Linden:	...but I also caution you --- it isn't likely that most of LL engineering is going to suddenly start documenting
	Zero Linden:	like Which does
	Zha Ewry:	Right now,what seems to happen aftert the first packet
	Zha Ewry:	in login 9the first UDP packet up)
	Zha Ewry:	is a flood of packets down
	Zha Ewry:	Some of which clearly need to be acked
	Head Replacement:	tell them if they don't document then they need to spend their time in IRC and answer questions all day long ;)
	Zha Ewry:	But.. it's almost impossible to determine what's needed first, and
	Zha Ewry:	The trace logs are different than they were a few months back
	Zha Ewry:	But.. why.. isn't at all clear
	Daaneth Kivioq:	unless the packet gets shot down by Ack-Ack
	Zha Ewry:	One expects that there is some off
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Message # 1968 Flags: 0x40 ('LayerData', 'Trusted', 'Unencoded') sequence # (1303,) Message # 1969 Flags: 0x00 ('CoarseLocationUpdate', 'Trusted', 'Unencoded') sequence # (1304,) Message # 1970 Flags: 0x60 ('EnableSimulator', 'Trusted', 'Unencoded') sequence # (918,)
	Zha Ewry:	*odd
	Head Replacement:	maybe we can also come up with some process where we can discuss the details in chunks like small milestones
	Zero Linden:	I'm going to admit that the current set of protocols do not have clear documentation even internally
	Saijanai Kuhn:	that bot I had here when you arrived got those back
	Zha Ewry:	combinatoin of "what should happen" and "wha does happen" going on
	Daaneth Kivioq:	That way lies madness, Zero
	Head Replacement:	so we might have some initial meeting with Linden involvement to get details clear about one component
	Saijanai Kuhn:	1970 of them
	Neas Bade:	zero, honestly, when we talk about documentation it's more like the kind of sketch that will save us a day from figuring it out ourselves. It doesn't have to be super robust
	Head Replacement:	and get clear what the next goal is.. for now the goal for Q4 was login via legacy-login caps if I remember that right
	Saijanai Kuhn:	obviously I goofed but how, and why the spam?
	Rob Linden:	speaking of madness, I've booked for meetings all day today. next.....
	Zero Linden:	So I have only limited hope for the existing protocols - my hope is to muster enough troops, internall and external, to get to new protocols that are well defined
	Head Replacement:	cya Rob
	Zero Linden:	Alas, I have a two oclock too
	Zha Ewry nods at Zero
	Zero Linden:	So I'm out of here, sigh
	Daaneth Kivioq:	we could always port the code to FORTRAN (:-)
	Zha Ewry:	We're eager to help
	Neas Bade:	thanks zero
	Rex Cronon:	that looks like a big blob broken in parts, sai
	Zha Ewry:	But.. We do need to
	Jason Swain:	Thank you Zero
	Zha Ewry:	Be able to
	Jarod Godel:	later, Rob
	Zha Ewry:	get the door open
	Zha Ewry:	Thanks Zero
	Gigs Taggart:	me too, later
	Zha Ewry:	And Rob
	Head Replacement:	thanks Zero :-)
	Zero Linden:	I promise I'm going to bring this feedback to all of engineering - I'm going to be your voice in getting more involvement
	Rex Cronon:	bye rob
	Malburns Writer:	Bye Rob
	Malburns Writer:	Thanks Zero
	Saijanai Kuhn:	thanks Rob.
	Saijanai Kuhn:	Thanks Zero
	Zero Linden:	See you Thursday
	Daaneth Kivioq:	Thanks ero
	Daaneth Kivioq:	Zero
	Rex Cronon:	bye zero