User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 17

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:01]	Saijanai Kuhn starts loud applause
[13:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Dia Liberation was amazingly flawless
[13:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello Zero ^^
[13:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hello Zero
[13:03]	Bridie Linden:	Ok to sit in?
[13:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Zha hello to you 2
[13:03]	Zha Ewry:	Hello, oh liberator of messages
[13:03]	Zero Linden:	Hello hello
[13:03]	Zha Ewry:	Have any messages actually flown obver the new tooling yet>
[13:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hello Bridie
[13:03]	Squirrel Wood:	the power of procedural textures ^^
[13:03]	Bridie Linden:	Hello Zero, Kooky, Squirrel
[13:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey Bridie
[13:04]	Squirrel Wood:	So we meet again ^^
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	Oh - hey there Bridie - welcome, sitting in?
[13:04]	Bridie Linden:	yes, if you don't mind!
[13:04]	Bridie Linden:	:)
[13:04]	Zero Linden:	not at all
[13:04]	Bridie Linden:	I may get called away, but would love to 'listen'
[13:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sorry I'm late, got griefed at a class.
[13:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hello again Wyn
[13:05]	Wyn Galbraith:	Hello.
[13:05]	Zero Linden:	S'okay - it's a slow summer day...
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	I've found that all over the grid - I hold an event that two months ago would have had 20 people attend, and now I get like six
[13:06]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wasn't the abuse report option on the pie menu?
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	still is
[13:06]	Zha Ewry nods. Lots of folks off on vacatoins, away from school, busy, RL stuff
[13:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	The office hours I've attended earlier were busy.
[13:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	Not for this griefer.
[13:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	its there
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	ah - if you are a land manager, and have rights to eject, looks like it got lost!
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	bother!
[13:08]	Squirrel Wood:	Oh well. german press (and probably others too) brought reports of the big companies "leaving" SL for greener pastures because 40k players online at peak times for them is "not enough"...
[13:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	Roflol..new LL policy, if its your problem, deal with it yourself?
[13:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	So it is suppose to be there and isn't now? It's not just because I'm on the first look voice?
[13:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	hehehe
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	might be ....
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	I'm on first look (why isn't it named "first hear"?)
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	too
[13:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	haha.. do you want me to tp home and look?
[13:09]	Squirrel Wood:	because you get to look at the communicate window first? ^^
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	no no - not now
[13:09]	Zero Linden:	squirrel - your mic. is open and somewhat noisy
[13:10]	Squirrel Wood:	humm.. I have push to talk set
[13:10]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[13:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	actually for a person I don't have a report abuse button
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	of course - I should just disable speech - since this isn't a voice based office hours
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	though - I think I'll schedule one in the future - just as an experiment
[13:10]	Kooky Jetaime:	Robin was talking about that earlier as well.
[13:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I've never actually used voice for more than a few seconds. WOuld be interesting
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	okay - it is 10 after - let's start
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	So ---- Olé!
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	the Message System is Liberated
[13:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Bravo Encore Encore
[13:11]	Rex Cronon:	btw zero is the transcript from thursday available on wiki?
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	Have any liberated bits moved yet?
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	Or is it still all on the old message pipes?
[13:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	whoops, I crashed jira.
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Of course, judging from the internal e-mail I'm getting about it - it may take a month or so before we get in the swing of it and can really avoid most of the requireed viewer updates
[13:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	something is different. The group IM bug almost went away completely
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Rex - sorry, I'm behind on transcripts
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	will try to get them all done soon
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	and there was no Thursday - I was on vacation
[13:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so obviously it is available...
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	Or rather, the kids were on vacation, I was working on as an usher!
[13:13]	Rex Cronon:	oh, am i lucky, or what? just when i couldn't make it, there was no office hours:)
[13:14]	Rex Cronon:	is everybody using speach?
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	nope
[13:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is there an agenda for today, or is it just a let's pat Zero on the Back Day?
[13:14]	Wyn Galbraith:	Not using it to talk, just listen.
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	no no - hell with back pats
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	(but thank you just the same)
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	no agenda - so, what's on folks' minds?
[13:15]	Wyn Galbraith:	Megaprims.
[13:15]	Rex Cronon:	i have a problem zero
[13:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I was VERY impressed. It was completely smooth for me, and the IM bug just disappeared until peak hours and was very rare even thn
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	Thanks, Saj. Go fort it Rex
[13:16]	Rex Cronon:	when i rezz some of my things they are deleted right away, at least when i am at SWT(sandbox-weapons testing)
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Hmmm..... as in deleted and returned, or just "poof"?
[13:16]	Rex Cronon:	pooof
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	well, there used to be sandbox specific code in the system (which, of course, private sandboxes couldn't use)
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	but I thought we took all of that out months ago
[13:17]	Kooky Jetaime:	Last I knew the sandboxes are 5 hour returns.
[13:17]	Rex Cronon:	oh, and it happened at rausch too
[13:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I've seen the behavior recently. Eventually things how uup in the trash though
[13:17]	Squirrel Wood:	could it be due to packet loss ?
[13:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	things show up
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	Otherwise - things should be the same in a sandbox region
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	well, there have been a bunch of changes to mitigate inventory loss
[13:18]	Rex Cronon:	those are things that i scripted and build myself, so i don't really care if they get deleted
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	and some of them do involve being more careful with the protocol, and if things don't look hunky-dory, returning the objects
[13:18]	Rex Cronon:	i just want to know way the go "poof" without any messages or warnings or errors
[13:18]	Rex Cronon:	why*
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	So it is possible, I believe, if you are in a high lag area, for stuff to start to rez and then fail - disappearing
[13:19]	Rex Cronon:	yes is true lag
[13:19]	Kooky Jetaime:	to poof a prim without warning/errors/no trash is llDie();
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	Well - when things start to fail, I think we get paranoid about sending more messages... but that is a bit of a hunch - it is more likely that the loss mitigation code is just 1st generation
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	Kooky - it should end up somewhere.
[13:19]	Rex Cronon:	when u say protocol, u mean http? none of those scripted objects used http
[13:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	llDie is a direct kill, it goes into the Ether
[13:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	by design as far as I know
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	no no - I mean the protocols we use between viewr / sim / dataserver / asset server for rezing an object
[13:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	though I read Rex wrong when I said that
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	realize that rezing an object is a rather complex dance:
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	viewer says: "put this inventory item here"
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	sim checks that you can put something there
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	sim gets details from inventory DB
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	sim checks all perms
[13:21]	Rex Cronon:	oh, i can see it, i gives me a message that is alive than it goes poof
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	sim has to go get asset from asset store
[13:21]	Rex Cronon:	it gives*
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	sim starts to instantiate the item in world
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	sim may have to remove from inveontory if no-copy
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	sim tells viewers
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	etc....
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	Rex - if the script starts executing, enough to say "i'm here" - then we are beyond the code I'm talking about
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	all of this happens before the scripts get scheduled
[13:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sounds like a self-destruct is built into it
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	so - if after talking to you it disappears
[13:23]	Squirrel Wood:	is it a temp object mayhaps?
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	there are two options
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	well, several
[13:23]	Rex Cronon:	my self-destruct tells me when it happens. so is not my script that kills it
[13:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	Drop it on noscript land and see if it poofs would be a good simple one
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	The "user error" scenarios: it did execute llDie(), or is temp-on-rez, or was set "sandbox" and moved to far, etc...
[13:24]	Rex Cronon:	is not a temp object
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	And the system ones: It is there, but the viewer lost the update... you're just not seeing it
[13:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	if its yours, drop it on the ground in noscript land then open the script and set it to not running
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	and unless it moves, you won't get an update
[13:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	take it and edit it whever and follow the code
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	OR - the system moved it somehow
[13:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	also if its copyable, you have a version you can rez on demand to see if it still poofers
[13:25]	Squirrel Wood:	when the object suddenly vanishes the coordinates 0,0,0 of the sim may be worth checking
[13:25]	Rex Cronon:	it is my own code. i went through it just to make sure.
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	First things I'd do is rez it, watch it go poof, teleport to another sim more than two sims away, wait 1 min. then TP back
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	then see if it is there - if so, then this is a viewer update bug - and could easily be UDP packet loss or mis-ordering
[13:27]	Rex Cronon:	cold somebody have found a way to mimic an object and make the sim delete it?
[13:27]	Rex Cronon:	could*
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	not likely - the permission checks are on the sim, so they'd have to figure out a way to get your session key, by packet sniffing your stream
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	so, someone on your local network, perhaps....
[13:28]	Squirrel Wood:	another common "reason" for objects going "poof"... you edit its z-position to be 25m and type 225 or 255 instead...... object goes out of select range and "vanishes"
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	but in general, no, we don't trust viewers or objects enough for there to be many opportunities for spoofing
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	You can't trust the viewer
[13:30]	Rex Cronon:	actually is defence weapon. when somebody starts rezzing hundreds of physical rotating prims(that are ment to crash the sim), i rezz my thing, and i pushes those physical thing out of the sim:)
[13:30]	Zha Ewry:	After all who knows where it' sbeen?
[13:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	That seems to be adding owod to the fire Rex
[13:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	wood
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	uh oh - now there's physics involved? Yikes - all bets are off... :-)
[13:32]	Rex Cronon:	my thing is not physical, just looks for moving things, and gives them a "hard" shove:)
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	Is it that bad? When you add physics? I mean, the objects may be in motion, but
[13:32]	Zero Linden imagnies that owood is sort of like el-wire
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	But aren't they in sim, in the same way as non moving objects?
[13:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	... physical objects getting given a shove still doesn't help matters, it just adds to the collisions
[13:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	and if your in nopush land
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	Zha - it just means that there is more opportunity for the position of the object to get messed with, and that there
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	are more object updates, and hence packet loss and re-ordering
[13:33]	Rex Cronon:	has anybody here seen what happens to a sim if there are hundreds/thousands of physical objects faling/colliding/rotating?
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	especially if there are 100s of new objects - some of those object updates aren't going to get through
[13:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[13:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	I killed my home with 50 physical boxes
[13:33]	Squirrel Wood:	your best bet with griefers is still to report them so they can be taken care of accordingly ^^
[13:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	random shoving sin't gonna do a thing
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	Rex - as grid monkey I've seen my share!
[13:34]	Rex Cronon:	actually it works, if an objecs is sent outside the sim it goes poof:)
[13:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	it will add more lag as the server is handling added physics interactions of getting shoved / movement / gravity
[13:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hrm... only if its an solo island
[13:34]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	since physical objects can go across boundrys I thought
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	The extra chances to lose stuff makes sense
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	Tho.. Not rex
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	Rex's object, if it isn't moving
[13:35]	Rex Cronon:	my thing is not physical
[13:35]	Zha Ewry:	But.. If the sim is in pain (which it presumabbly is) then.. it all gets messier
[13:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	yours isn't but what your shoving is
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	well - unless it is phantom, it is still in the physics engine
[13:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	and considering physicals can go 4096 up
[13:35]	peach Dagger:	rex did i see you at the sand box
[13:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	You're in a sandbox where griefing/anti griefing objects are normal
[13:35]	Rex Cronon:	each phsical thing that gets deleted reduces load
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	and if it is scripted to push, then even if it is phantom (is that possible) it is injecting energy into the physics simulation, which always, er, stirs things up
[13:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	but you can't delete them by shoving them offworld as easilly as you think
[13:36]	Squirrel Wood:	most "griefers" alts can be removed from a sim on entering if the sim has a central hub where everybody is forced to arrive. just needs a tiny little script for the removal ^^
[13:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	if I shot a bullet from my gun right now, it'll keep sailing until it hits something, even across sim lines
[13:36]	Rex Cronon:	swt is surround by water, so anything that gets out, is deleted
[13:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	I've gotten "Can't enter" messages from neighboring sims
[13:37]	Squirrel Wood:	proper bullets set the die_on_sim_edge setting so they auto-die when leaving the sim
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	So - since we're on the subject of technical ways of handling griefers - tell me what your throughs are
[13:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok, so they arn't proper :)
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	Sqwuirrel - I don't understand the central- telehub idea
[13:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	and whats die_on_sim_edge?
[13:37]	Terney McMillan:	The probem with this place is that people don't speak
[13:37]	Terney McMillan:	Ive just been to the help island
[13:38]	Rex Cronon:	has a list of keys, user sent home if a know key
[13:38]	Terney McMillan:	Theres 20 people there doing nothing
[13:38]	Squirrel Wood:	When everyone arrives in one spot you can do an age check and send anyone younger or older than a given number of days home
[13:38]	Wyn Galbraith:	Heya Tree.
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Terney - welcome to my office hours, please sit and join us
[13:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	ah - you mean at a privatly run sandbox
[13:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Terry there are plenty of places where people know how to speak. Try the second life library great conversations
[13:38]	Squirrel Wood:	And since most griefer alts are less than three or so days old it works quite well
[13:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	hello folks...zero good to see you made it back from vacation safe!
[13:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	Dark City / Toxia / Others do the age check thing
[13:38]	Terney McMillan:	Ive just signed up today you see.
[13:38]	Rex Cronon:	hi tree
[13:39]	Tree Kyomoon:	hey rex and wyn :)
[13:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	see squirrel, people wanna let you ahve the ring all to yerself :)
[13:39]	Rex Cronon:	terney try NCI, a nice place fore new people
[13:39]	Wyn Galbraith smiles.
[13:39]	Tree Kyomoon:	zha good to see you
[13:39]	Zha Ewry:	Hello tree
[13:39]	Terney McMillan:	Ok, no worries Ill leave
[13:39]	Rex Cronon:	no
[13:39]	Wyn Galbraith:	You dont have to leave.
[13:40]	Rex Cronon:	i didn't meant to tell u to go
[13:40]	Wyn Galbraith:	All are welcome...
[13:40]	Terney McMillan:	Ah right
[13:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	it does get a bit techy, just be warned, but your welcome :)
[13:40]	Terney McMillan:	Im quite the geek myself haha
[13:40]	Terney McMillan:	Minus the scipting knowledge
[13:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	So, squirrel, die on sim edge, what ya talking about?
[13:40]	Terney McMillan:	r*
[13:40]	Wyn Galbraith:	Then you're in the geeky place to be.
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	These are my office hours - as you may or may not know, anyone with the last name Linden works for the company Linden Lab that runs SL
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	I'm here to meet with residetns and discuss technical design of SL
[13:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	You can set objects to die at the edge of the sim.
[13:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	where/how? not finding anything on the wiki
[13:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	So they don't go wandering from sim to sim.
[13:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Aero, at some point before you leave, I'd like to ask a quick (maybe) question about an API design
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	reference to STATUS_DIE_AT_EDGE: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetStatus
[13:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	*Zero
[13:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	ah, thanks
[13:41]	Terney McMillan:	Oh, I was wondering btw, not sure if its the right time to ask, is SL been written for dual core yet if at all?
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Saij, so noted
[13:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	I run it dual core..
[13:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	it runs just fine for me.. now if we can get it running dual monitor...zero :)
[13:42]	Terney McMillan:	Yes, but unless its written for dual core, it jusr uses one core
[13:42]	Terney McMillan:	= Half speed
[13:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	It seems to run ballanced, but slow, on my dual G5 Mac
[13:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	Terney, I run 35% on my system
[13:42]	Rex Cronon:	u can get the code terney and chage it:)
[13:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	its not even using one core to its max :)
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Teney - there is an experimental option - turn on debug menus, then Client menu > Rendering > Run Multiple Threads
[13:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	I can surf, watch a dvd and SL at the saem time :)
[13:43]	Terney McMillan:	Alright, no worries. I just got a newish comp and its lagging quite a bit sometimes
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	that moves the texture decode to a second thread and hence core
[13:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	lag can be one of three things, processor lag, video lag, sim lag, or communication lag
[13:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	make that 4
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	since texture decode is a MAJOR CPU drain, that is help
[13:43]	Terney McMillan:	Its the time it takes to update things
[13:43]	Terney McMillan:	Yeah
[13:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	Still could be 1 of the four
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Dual monitor? I can stretch my window across two monotiros, can't you?
[13:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	will have to investigate
[13:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Nope.. SL only works on my primary
[13:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	There's a thread about setting your video card VRAM to 1/2 itsw max due to how SL handles textures
[13:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	if I drag it to the second monitor, the scren don't update
[13:44]	Tree Kyomoon:	zero did you get my posting on yoru blog about cookies?
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	Kooky - alas, second monitors and OpenGL aren't well supported across all video drivers -
[13:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	at least I'm not on ati :)
[13:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	and at least I can still use my other window.. I put a game on yesterday, I lose use of my second monitor when its on
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	I'm sorry Tree, no - I don't see it on the Wiki discussion page
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	posting on my blog?
[13:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	hmm I think it was on a wiki, it was the link you gave me just before you left
[13:46]	Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[13:46]	Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Cleanliness is next to impossible.
[13:46]	Tree Kyomoon:	i put up a use case
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Saij. - what was your question?
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/Discussion
[13:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	Guess the squirrel got her cookies
[13:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, ,thanks Zero. I've been contemplating the issue with SCulpties animations being cached on the client. ..
[13:47]	Tree Kyomoon:	any hope of higher rez sculpties?
[13:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	All the options that have been discussed so far have been for single prims
[13:47]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	Saij - as in the sculptie animation hack with making it be the media texture?
[13:47]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL @ Squirrel's cookies
[13:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I came up with a little hack that might work for multiple prims
[13:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	Oooooooohhhhhhhhh
[13:47]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes my post is right there, llHTTPRequest
[13:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I stuck a preliminary API at the bottom of Qarl's jira about media streaming
[13:48]	Zero Linden:	ah - I was looking for the keyword cookies in the title
[13:48]	Tree Kyomoon:	oh sorry about that :)
[13:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1336
[13:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	it has nothing to do with QT and sculpties directly, it was just a coneventient place to put a brainstormed API and refer people
[13:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	my question is: can it work?
[13:49]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thanks Squirrel
[13:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the idea is to collate all the sculpt maps for a single prim and store it server side and get a reference handle back. Repeat for all prims. Then supply those references in a single call and get a collated reference
[13:49]	Zero Linden:	Saijanai - I doubt it - expecting anything in LSL ot be able to keep up with frame updates is hopeful
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'm afraid that I haven't made myself at all clear
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	secondly - we don't have ANY media support on the sims
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	there is no Quicktime code on the sim
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	even less clear and getting colder :-(
[13:50]	Terney McMillan:	Why use Quicktime?
[13:50]	Terney McMillan:	Jw
[13:50]	Tree Kyomoon:	right so you couldnt possibly render the qt info to a surface
[13:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	quicktime works :)
[13:50]	Tree Kyomoon:	because the client doesnt know what it is
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	Teney- that is what we use for handling streaming media
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	as I said, this was a convenient place to stick the code it has NOTHING TO DO WITH QT
[13:50]	Zero Linden:	because who wants to reinvent that wheel!
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sorry
[13:51]	Terney McMillan:	Alright
[13:51]	Kooky Jetaime raises his hand
[13:51]	Terney McMillan:	Sorry about that
[13:51]	Tree Kyomoon:	so higher rez sculpties?
[13:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	I reinvent wheels all the tiem
[13:51]	Tree Kyomoon:	nudge nudge
[13:51]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the idea is that Qarl wants to cache the textures for sculpt maps o n the client side as do all sculpty makers that want animation
[13:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	too bad tgas can't be multiframed, like gifs......
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	Saijanai - what would a sculptie animation be other than an animation stream of some form?
[13:51]	Tree Kyomoon:	pngs can be multiframes
[13:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	my idea was just to allow caching to be a two stage process: cache one sculpty's animation textures then combine it with another's
[13:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	Why couldn't you play a sculpti anim similar to playing a regular animation
[13:52]	Tree Kyomoon:	thats what most folks do
[13:52]	Squirrel Wood:	Mayhaps animated sculpties could use textures in the same way as the normal texture animation where you basically break the texture into several tiles ?
[13:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	a texture animation where each frame is a 64x64 square of pixels on a larger texture
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	Kooky - i believe that is what happens now
[13:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok,
[13:52]	Zero Linden:	Saijanai - AH that kind of animation - all in one frame
[13:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'll shut up, don't know what I'm talking about..don't play with sculpties :)
[13:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the point isn't how the server sends the info to hte client, but how the client can specify multiple prims for animation
[13:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or rather how a script can
[13:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	right now, there's no way to start multiple animations with one call
[13:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	right so you could rez and map sculpties via script?
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	but in that case, what you are really asking is to do sculptie map animation the same we we do other texture animations -
[13:53]	Zero Linden:	of course, that is ALL done viewer side
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yes, but allow multiple prims to use the same map, but in a different way
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	intead of m frames, you have m frames of n sculpties
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	each row of tiles is a frame. Each column of the tiles is for a different culpty
[13:54]	Zero Linden:	Yes - I see - it is possible, though I wonder how general the technique is ...
[13:54]	Zha Ewry thinks not too general
[13:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	quite general. The best sculpty animations are already using multiple sculpties
[13:55]	Tree Kyomoon:	sounds pretty specialized
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	and if there wouldn't be a more general structure for manaing animation sets - of regular textures too...
[13:55]	Terney McMillan:	Is this about improving the graphics of the avatars etc? Because I think its like more of a priority to make the game run smoothly first
[13:55]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I saw a horse drawing a haywagon the other day. Each leg was its own animation
[13:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	No
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	of course... at this point we're getting dangerously close to SMIL or some such
[13:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	this is regarding one specific type of prim
[13:55]	Terney McMillan:	Alright
[13:56]	Zero Linden thinkgs game? what game?
[13:56]	Zero Linden smiles
[13:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its a relatively simple API. only a few calls: createanimationcache(sculpty, [map_list}, blah);
[13:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	with a animatinHandle = at the front
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	Saijanai- there are no simple APIs! Changes to LSL are forever and we need to think very carefully about each and everyone
[13:56]	Tree Kyomoon:	so....higher rez sculpties?
[13:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Maybe we need some simple apis :)
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	animation handles, or any kind of handle, introduces a resource concept that then has to be managed
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	and LSL isn't so good at that
[13:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	then after you've gotten several handles for several sculpties, animationcache = (createanimationhandle( [handle1, handle2,...]);.
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	when do they get cleaned up?
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	multiple references?
[13:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	llstartANimation(animationcache);
[13:57]	Zero Linden:	etc?
[13:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	good question.
[13:57]	Rex Cronon:	than either lsl has to change, or mono has to take over
[13:57]	Zha Ewry:	Hard question
[13:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	state changes erase references to listen handles
[13:57]	Zha Ewry:	Dangling reds are messy
[13:58]	Zha Ewry:	*refs
[13:58]	Zero Linden:	Remember that a sim can have thousands of scripts, so we try to avoid things with unbounded memory use
[13:58]	Zha Ewry:	And ref counting is costly
[13:58]	Kooky Jetaime isn't holding his breath on any updates.
[13:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that might not make sense for sculpties, but the other side of the question is: are multiprim animations simply not allowed except viea the current kludge?
[13:58]	Zero Linden contemplates dangling reds.....
[13:58]	Tree Kyomoon:	hey...we just had some major updates! messaging??
[13:58]	Kooky Jetaime:	Updates such as: Havoc 4, Mono
[13:58]	Rex Cronon:	what kludge?
[13:58]	Zha Ewry:	And mono may help slightly on rersource use.. but not that much, as data space, is already half of script space
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	Saijanai- yes - right now there hasn't been much time to think about the kind of coordination and resource managment that such a facitlity would require
[13:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	start one sculpty. Start the next start the next, change the map, change the map, change the map...
[13:59]	Terney McMillan:	This convos confusing me ;) So I htink its time I take my leave. Anywhere good for a new person to go?
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	mind you - people would love such things not just for textures and sculptie maps, but also things like prim parameter changes
[13:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	second life library is a great place
[13:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	sculpties are stopgap anyway right?
[13:59]	Bridie Linden:	I've gotta run - thanks all, Zero for letting me sit in.
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	whitness the lotus
[13:59]	Terney McMillan:	Alright thanks
[13:59]	Zero Linden:	all those opening and closing of leaves
[13:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	bye bye birdie
[13:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	bridie
[13:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	I mean, we will enventually have access to real nurbs and stuff right?
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	is done thtough very complex scripting that would really be more like an animation
[14:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	Go everywhere :)
[14:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	Tree - who knows maybe in 5 years?
[14:00]	Rex Cronon:	bye bridie
[14:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	or 10
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	Well all -
[14:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	no way, I say a year
[14:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I guess it was not at all asimple question...
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	alas, it is 2pm and I have another meeting .... so I must big a quick adieu
[14:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	bye bye Bridie, Bridie bye bye
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	laters all!
[14:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	take care Zero
[14:00]	Zero Linden:	I'll be here thursday this week