User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jul 17

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:01] Saijanai Kuhn starts loud applause
[13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Dia Liberation was amazingly flawless
[13:02] Squirrel Wood: Hello Zero ^^
[13:02] Kooky Jetaime: Hello Zero
[13:03] Bridie Linden: Ok to sit in?
[13:03] Kooky Jetaime: Zha hello to you 2
[13:03] Zha Ewry: Hello, oh liberator of messages
[13:03] Zero Linden: Hello hello
[13:03] Zha Ewry: Have any messages actually flown obver the new tooling yet>
[13:03] Kooky Jetaime: Hello Bridie
[13:03] Squirrel Wood: the power of procedural textures ^^
[13:03] Bridie Linden: Hello Zero, Kooky, Squirrel
[13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: hey Bridie
[13:04] Squirrel Wood: So we meet again ^^
[13:04] Zero Linden: Oh - hey there Bridie - welcome, sitting in?
[13:04] Bridie Linden: yes, if you don't mind!
[13:04] Bridie Linden: :)
[13:04] Zero Linden: not at all
[13:04] Bridie Linden: I may get called away, but would love to 'listen'
[13:05] Wyn Galbraith: Sorry I'm late, got griefed at a class.
[13:05] Kooky Jetaime: Hello again Wyn
[13:05] Wyn Galbraith: Hello.
[13:05] Zero Linden: S'okay - it's a slow summer day...
[13:06] Zero Linden: I've found that all over the grid - I hold an event that two months ago would have had 20 people attend, and now I get like six
[13:06] Wyn Galbraith: Wasn't the abuse report option on the pie menu?
[13:06] Zero Linden: still is
[13:06] Zha Ewry nods. Lots of folks off on vacatoins, away from school, busy, RL stuff
[13:07] Kooky Jetaime: The office hours I've attended earlier were busy.
[13:07] Wyn Galbraith: Not for this griefer.
[13:07] Kooky Jetaime: its there
[13:08] Zero Linden: ah - if you are a land manager, and have rights to eject, looks like it got lost!
[13:08] Zero Linden: bother!
[13:08] Squirrel Wood: Oh well. german press (and probably others too) brought reports of the big companies "leaving" SL for greener pastures because 40k players online at peak times for them is "not enough"...
[13:08] Kooky Jetaime: Roflol..new LL policy, if its your problem, deal with it yourself?
[13:08] Wyn Galbraith: So it is suppose to be there and isn't now? It's not just because I'm on the first look voice?
[13:08] Kooky Jetaime: hehehe
[13:08] Zero Linden: might be ....
[13:09] Zero Linden: I'm on first look (why isn't it named "first hear"?)
[13:09] Zero Linden: too
[13:09] Kooky Jetaime: haha.. do you want me to tp home and look?
[13:09] Squirrel Wood: because you get to look at the communicate window first? ^^
[13:09] Zero Linden: no no - not now
[13:09] Zero Linden: squirrel - your mic. is open and somewhat noisy
[13:10] Squirrel Wood: humm.. I have push to talk set
[13:10] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: actually for a person I don't have a report abuse button
[13:10] Zero Linden: of course - I should just disable speech - since this isn't a voice based office hours
[13:10] Zero Linden: though - I think I'll schedule one in the future - just as an experiment
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: Robin was talking about that earlier as well.
[13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: I've never actually used voice for more than a few seconds. WOuld be interesting
[13:11] Zero Linden: okay - it is 10 after - let's start
[13:11] Zero Linden: So ---- Olé!
[13:11] Zero Linden: the Message System is Liberated
[13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: Bravo Encore Encore
[13:11] Rex Cronon: btw zero is the transcript from thursday available on wiki?
[13:11] Zha Ewry: Have any liberated bits moved yet?
[13:12] Zha Ewry: Or is it still all on the old message pipes?
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: whoops, I crashed jira.
[13:12] Zero Linden: Of course, judging from the internal e-mail I'm getting about it - it may take a month or so before we get in the swing of it and can really avoid most of the requireed viewer updates
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: something is different. The group IM bug almost went away completely
[13:12] Zero Linden: Rex - sorry, I'm behind on transcripts
[13:12] Zero Linden: will try to get them all done soon
[13:12] Zero Linden: and there was no Thursday - I was on vacation
[13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: so obviously it is available...
[13:13] Zero Linden: Or rather, the kids were on vacation, I was working on as an usher!
[13:13] Rex Cronon: oh, am i lucky, or what? just when i couldn't make it, there was no office hours:)
[13:14] Rex Cronon: is everybody using speach?
[13:14] Zero Linden: nope
[13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: is there an agenda for today, or is it just a let's pat Zero on the Back Day?
[13:14] Wyn Galbraith: Not using it to talk, just listen.
[13:14] Zero Linden: no no - hell with back pats
[13:14] Zero Linden: (but thank you just the same)
[13:15] Zero Linden: no agenda - so, what's on folks' minds?
[13:15] Wyn Galbraith: Megaprims.
[13:15] Rex Cronon: i have a problem zero
[13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I was VERY impressed. It was completely smooth for me, and the IM bug just disappeared until peak hours and was very rare even thn
[13:15] Zero Linden: Thanks, Saj. Go fort it Rex
[13:16] Rex Cronon: when i rezz some of my things they are deleted right away, at least when i am at SWT(sandbox-weapons testing)
[13:16] Zero Linden: Hmmm..... as in deleted and returned, or just "poof"?
[13:16] Rex Cronon: pooof
[13:16] Zero Linden: well, there used to be sandbox specific code in the system (which, of course, private sandboxes couldn't use)
[13:17] Zero Linden: but I thought we took all of that out months ago
[13:17] Kooky Jetaime: Last I knew the sandboxes are 5 hour returns.
[13:17] Rex Cronon: oh, and it happened at rausch too
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: I've seen the behavior recently. Eventually things how uup in the trash though
[13:17] Squirrel Wood: could it be due to packet loss ?
[13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: things show up
[13:17] Zero Linden: Otherwise - things should be the same in a sandbox region
[13:18] Zero Linden: well, there have been a bunch of changes to mitigate inventory loss
[13:18] Rex Cronon: those are things that i scripted and build myself, so i don't really care if they get deleted
[13:18] Zero Linden: and some of them do involve being more careful with the protocol, and if things don't look hunky-dory, returning the objects
[13:18] Rex Cronon: i just want to know way the go "poof" without any messages or warnings or errors
[13:18] Rex Cronon: why*
[13:19] Zero Linden: So it is possible, I believe, if you are in a high lag area, for stuff to start to rez and then fail - disappearing
[13:19] Rex Cronon: yes is true lag
[13:19] Kooky Jetaime: to poof a prim without warning/errors/no trash is llDie();
[13:19] Zero Linden: Well - when things start to fail, I think we get paranoid about sending more messages... but that is a bit of a hunch - it is more likely that the loss mitigation code is just 1st generation
[13:19] Zero Linden: Kooky - it should end up somewhere.
[13:19] Rex Cronon: when u say protocol, u mean http? none of those scripted objects used http
[13:20] Kooky Jetaime: llDie is a direct kill, it goes into the Ether
[13:20] Kooky Jetaime: by design as far as I know
[13:20] Zero Linden: no no - I mean the protocols we use between viewr / sim / dataserver / asset server for rezing an object
[13:20] Kooky Jetaime: though I read Rex wrong when I said that
[13:20] Zero Linden: realize that rezing an object is a rather complex dance:
[13:20] Zero Linden: viewer says: "put this inventory item here"
[13:20] Zero Linden: sim checks that you can put something there
[13:20] Zero Linden: sim gets details from inventory DB
[13:21] Zero Linden: sim checks all perms
[13:21] Rex Cronon: oh, i can see it, i gives me a message that is alive than it goes poof
[13:21] Zero Linden: sim has to go get asset from asset store
[13:21] Rex Cronon: it gives*
[13:21] Zero Linden: sim starts to instantiate the item in world
[13:21] Zero Linden: sim may have to remove from inveontory if no-copy
[13:21] Zero Linden: sim tells viewers
[13:21] Zero Linden: etc....
[13:22] Zero Linden: Rex - if the script starts executing, enough to say "i'm here" - then we are beyond the code I'm talking about
[13:22] Zero Linden: all of this happens before the scripts get scheduled
[13:22] Kooky Jetaime: Sounds like a self-destruct is built into it
[13:23] Zero Linden: so - if after talking to you it disappears
[13:23] Squirrel Wood: is it a temp object mayhaps?
[13:23] Zero Linden: there are two options
[13:23] Zero Linden: well, several
[13:23] Rex Cronon: my self-destruct tells me when it happens. so is not my script that kills it
[13:23] Kooky Jetaime: Drop it on noscript land and see if it poofs would be a good simple one
[13:23] Zero Linden: The "user error" scenarios: it did execute llDie(), or is temp-on-rez, or was set "sandbox" and moved to far, etc...
[13:24] Rex Cronon: is not a temp object
[13:24] Zero Linden: And the system ones: It is there, but the viewer lost the update... you're just not seeing it
[13:24] Kooky Jetaime: if its yours, drop it on the ground in noscript land then open the script and set it to not running
[13:24] Zero Linden: and unless it moves, you won't get an update
[13:24] Kooky Jetaime: take it and edit it whever and follow the code
[13:24] Zero Linden: OR - the system moved it somehow
[13:24] Kooky Jetaime: also if its copyable, you have a version you can rez on demand to see if it still poofers
[13:25] Squirrel Wood: when the object suddenly vanishes the coordinates 0,0,0 of the sim may be worth checking
[13:25] Rex Cronon: it is my own code. i went through it just to make sure.
[13:25] Zero Linden: First things I'd do is rez it, watch it go poof, teleport to another sim more than two sims away, wait 1 min. then TP back
[13:26] Zero Linden: then see if it is there - if so, then this is a viewer update bug - and could easily be UDP packet loss or mis-ordering
[13:27] Rex Cronon: cold somebody have found a way to mimic an object and make the sim delete it?
[13:27] Rex Cronon: could*
[13:28] Zero Linden: not likely - the permission checks are on the sim, so they'd have to figure out a way to get your session key, by packet sniffing your stream
[13:28] Zero Linden: so, someone on your local network, perhaps....
[13:28] Squirrel Wood: another common "reason" for objects going "poof"... you edit its z-position to be 25m and type 225 or 255 instead...... object goes out of select range and "vanishes"
[13:29] Zero Linden: but in general, no, we don't trust viewers or objects enough for there to be many opportunities for spoofing
[13:30] Zha Ewry: You can't trust the viewer
[13:30] Rex Cronon: actually is defence weapon. when somebody starts rezzing hundreds of physical rotating prims(that are ment to crash the sim), i rezz my thing, and i pushes those physical thing out of the sim:)
[13:30] Zha Ewry: After all who knows where it' sbeen?
[13:31] Kooky Jetaime: That seems to be adding owod to the fire Rex
[13:31] Kooky Jetaime: wood
[13:31] Zero Linden: uh oh - now there's physics involved? Yikes - all bets are off... :-)
[13:32] Rex Cronon: my thing is not physical, just looks for moving things, and gives them a "hard" shove:)
[13:32] Zha Ewry: Is it that bad? When you add physics? I mean, the objects may be in motion, but
[13:32] Zero Linden imagnies that owood is sort of like el-wire
[13:32] Zha Ewry: But aren't they in sim, in the same way as non moving objects?
[13:32] Kooky Jetaime: ... physical objects getting given a shove still doesn't help matters, it just adds to the collisions
[13:32] Kooky Jetaime: and if your in nopush land
[13:32] Zero Linden: Zha - it just means that there is more opportunity for the position of the object to get messed with, and that there
[13:33] Zero Linden: are more object updates, and hence packet loss and re-ordering
[13:33] Rex Cronon: has anybody here seen what happens to a sim if there are hundreds/thousands of physical objects faling/colliding/rotating?
[13:33] Zero Linden: especially if there are 100s of new objects - some of those object updates aren't going to get through
[13:33] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[13:33] Kooky Jetaime: I killed my home with 50 physical boxes
[13:33] Squirrel Wood: your best bet with griefers is still to report them so they can be taken care of accordingly ^^
[13:33] Kooky Jetaime: random shoving sin't gonna do a thing
[13:33] Zero Linden: Rex - as grid monkey I've seen my share!
[13:34] Rex Cronon: actually it works, if an objecs is sent outside the sim it goes poof:)
[13:34] Kooky Jetaime: it will add more lag as the server is handling added physics interactions of getting shoved / movement / gravity
[13:34] Kooky Jetaime: Hrm... only if its an solo island
[13:34] Zha Ewry nods
[13:34] Kooky Jetaime: since physical objects can go across boundrys I thought
[13:34] Zha Ewry: The extra chances to lose stuff makes sense
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Tho.. Not rex
[13:34] Zha Ewry: Rex's object, if it isn't moving
[13:35] Rex Cronon: my thing is not physical
[13:35] Zha Ewry: But.. If the sim is in pain (which it presumabbly is) then.. it all gets messier
[13:35] Kooky Jetaime: yours isn't but what your shoving is
[13:35] Zero Linden: well - unless it is phantom, it is still in the physics engine
[13:35] Kooky Jetaime: and considering physicals can go 4096 up
[13:35] peach Dagger: rex did i see you at the sand box
[13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: You're in a sandbox where griefing/anti griefing objects are normal
[13:35] Rex Cronon: each phsical thing that gets deleted reduces load
[13:36] Zero Linden: and if it is scripted to push, then even if it is phantom (is that possible) it is injecting energy into the physics simulation, which always, er, stirs things up
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: but you can't delete them by shoving them offworld as easilly as you think
[13:36] Squirrel Wood: most "griefers" alts can be removed from a sim on entering if the sim has a central hub where everybody is forced to arrive. just needs a tiny little script for the removal ^^
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: if I shot a bullet from my gun right now, it'll keep sailing until it hits something, even across sim lines
[13:36] Rex Cronon: swt is surround by water, so anything that gets out, is deleted
[13:37] Kooky Jetaime: I've gotten "Can't enter" messages from neighboring sims
[13:37] Squirrel Wood: proper bullets set the die_on_sim_edge setting so they auto-die when leaving the sim
[13:37] Zero Linden: So - since we're on the subject of technical ways of handling griefers - tell me what your throughs are
[13:37] Kooky Jetaime: ok, so they arn't proper :)
[13:37] Zero Linden: Sqwuirrel - I don't understand the central- telehub idea
[13:37] Kooky Jetaime: and whats die_on_sim_edge?
[13:37] Terney McMillan: The probem with this place is that people don't speak
[13:37] Terney McMillan: Ive just been to the help island
[13:38] Rex Cronon: has a list of keys, user sent home if a know key
[13:38] Terney McMillan: Theres 20 people there doing nothing
[13:38] Squirrel Wood: When everyone arrives in one spot you can do an age check and send anyone younger or older than a given number of days home
[13:38] Wyn Galbraith: Heya Tree.
[13:38] Zero Linden: Terney - welcome to my office hours, please sit and join us
[13:38] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[13:38] Zero Linden: ah - you mean at a privatly run sandbox
[13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Terry there are plenty of places where people know how to speak. Try the second life library great conversations
[13:38] Squirrel Wood: And since most griefer alts are less than three or so days old it works quite well
[13:38] Tree Kyomoon: hello folks...zero good to see you made it back from vacation safe!
[13:38] Kooky Jetaime: Dark City / Toxia / Others do the age check thing
[13:38] Terney McMillan: Ive just signed up today you see.
[13:38] Rex Cronon: hi tree
[13:39] Tree Kyomoon: hey rex and wyn :)
[13:39] Kooky Jetaime: see squirrel, people wanna let you ahve the ring all to yerself :)
[13:39] Rex Cronon: terney try NCI, a nice place fore new people
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith smiles.
[13:39] Tree Kyomoon: zha good to see you
[13:39] Zha Ewry: Hello tree
[13:39] Terney McMillan: Ok, no worries Ill leave
[13:39] Rex Cronon: no
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith: You dont have to leave.
[13:40] Rex Cronon: i didn't meant to tell u to go
[13:40] Wyn Galbraith: All are welcome...
[13:40] Terney McMillan: Ah right
[13:40] Kooky Jetaime: it does get a bit techy, just be warned, but your welcome :)
[13:40] Terney McMillan: Im quite the geek myself haha
[13:40] Terney McMillan: Minus the scipting knowledge
[13:40] Kooky Jetaime: So, squirrel, die on sim edge, what ya talking about?
[13:40] Terney McMillan: r*
[13:40] Wyn Galbraith: Then you're in the geeky place to be.
[13:40] Zero Linden: These are my office hours - as you may or may not know, anyone with the last name Linden works for the company Linden Lab that runs SL
[13:41] Zero Linden: I'm here to meet with residetns and discuss technical design of SL
[13:41] Wyn Galbraith: You can set objects to die at the edge of the sim.
[13:41] Kooky Jetaime: where/how? not finding anything on the wiki
[13:41] Wyn Galbraith: So they don't go wandering from sim to sim.
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Aero, at some point before you leave, I'd like to ask a quick (maybe) question about an API design
[13:41] Zero Linden: reference to STATUS_DIE_AT_EDGE: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetStatus
[13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: *Zero
[13:41] Kooky Jetaime: ah, thanks
[13:41] Terney McMillan: Oh, I was wondering btw, not sure if its the right time to ask, is SL been written for dual core yet if at all?
[13:42] Zero Linden: Saij, so noted
[13:42] Kooky Jetaime: I run it dual core..
[13:42] Kooky Jetaime: it runs just fine for me.. now if we can get it running dual monitor...zero :)
[13:42] Terney McMillan: Yes, but unless its written for dual core, it jusr uses one core
[13:42] Terney McMillan: = Half speed
[13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: It seems to run ballanced, but slow, on my dual G5 Mac
[13:42] Kooky Jetaime: Terney, I run 35% on my system
[13:42] Rex Cronon: u can get the code terney and chage it:)
[13:43] Kooky Jetaime: its not even using one core to its max :)
[13:43] Zero Linden: Teney - there is an experimental option - turn on debug menus, then Client menu > Rendering > Run Multiple Threads
[13:43] Kooky Jetaime: I can surf, watch a dvd and SL at the saem time :)
[13:43] Terney McMillan: Alright, no worries. I just got a newish comp and its lagging quite a bit sometimes
[13:43] Zero Linden: that moves the texture decode to a second thread and hence core
[13:43] Kooky Jetaime: lag can be one of three things, processor lag, video lag, sim lag, or communication lag
[13:43] Kooky Jetaime: make that 4
[13:43] Zero Linden: since texture decode is a MAJOR CPU drain, that is help
[13:43] Terney McMillan: Its the time it takes to update things
[13:43] Terney McMillan: Yeah
[13:43] Kooky Jetaime: Still could be 1 of the four
[13:43] Zero Linden: Dual monitor? I can stretch my window across two monotiros, can't you?
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: will have to investigate
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: Nope.. SL only works on my primary
[13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: There's a thread about setting your video card VRAM to 1/2 itsw max due to how SL handles textures
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: if I drag it to the second monitor, the scren don't update
[13:44] Tree Kyomoon: zero did you get my posting on yoru blog about cookies?
[13:44] Zero Linden: Kooky - alas, second monitors and OpenGL aren't well supported across all video drivers -
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: at least I'm not on ati :)
[13:45] Kooky Jetaime: and at least I can still use my other window.. I put a game on yesterday, I lose use of my second monitor when its on
[13:45] Zero Linden: I'm sorry Tree, no - I don't see it on the Wiki discussion page
[13:45] Zero Linden: posting on my blog?
[13:45] Tree Kyomoon: hmm I think it was on a wiki, it was the link you gave me just before you left
[13:46] Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Here's some wisdom for you:
[13:46] Squirrel's Fortune Cookie: Cleanliness is next to impossible.
[13:46] Tree Kyomoon: i put up a use case
[13:46] Zero Linden: Saij. - what was your question?
[13:46] Zero Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/Discussion
[13:46] Kooky Jetaime: Guess the squirrel got her cookies
[13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, ,thanks Zero. I've been contemplating the issue with SCulpties animations being cached on the client. ..
[13:47] Tree Kyomoon: any hope of higher rez sculpties?
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: All the options that have been discussed so far have been for single prims
[13:47] Squirrel Wood: ^^
[13:47] Zero Linden: Saij - as in the sculptie animation hack with making it be the media texture?
[13:47] Wyn Galbraith: LOL @ Squirrel's cookies
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: I came up with a little hack that might work for multiple prims
[13:47] Kooky Jetaime: Oooooooohhhhhhhhh
[13:47] Tree Kyomoon: yes my post is right there, llHTTPRequest
[13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: I stuck a preliminary API at the bottom of Qarl's jira about media streaming
[13:48] Zero Linden: ah - I was looking for the keyword cookies in the title
[13:48] Tree Kyomoon: oh sorry about that :)
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1336
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: it has nothing to do with QT and sculpties directly, it was just a coneventient place to put a brainstormed API and refer people
[13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: my question is: can it work?
[13:49] Kooky Jetaime: Thanks Squirrel
[13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: the idea is to collate all the sculpt maps for a single prim and store it server side and get a reference handle back. Repeat for all prims. Then supply those references in a single call and get a collated reference
[13:49] Zero Linden: Saijanai - I doubt it - expecting anything in LSL ot be able to keep up with frame updates is hopeful
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm afraid that I haven't made myself at all clear
[13:50] Zero Linden: secondly - we don't have ANY media support on the sims
[13:50] Zero Linden: there is no Quicktime code on the sim
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: even less clear and getting colder :-(
[13:50] Terney McMillan: Why use Quicktime?
[13:50] Terney McMillan: Jw
[13:50] Tree Kyomoon: right so you couldnt possibly render the qt info to a surface
[13:50] Kooky Jetaime: quicktime works :)
[13:50] Tree Kyomoon: because the client doesnt know what it is
[13:50] Zero Linden: Teney- that is what we use for handling streaming media
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: as I said, this was a convenient place to stick the code it has NOTHING TO DO WITH QT
[13:50] Zero Linden: because who wants to reinvent that wheel!
[13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: sorry
[13:51] Terney McMillan: Alright
[13:51] Kooky Jetaime raises his hand
[13:51] Terney McMillan: Sorry about that
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: so higher rez sculpties?
[13:51] Kooky Jetaime: I reinvent wheels all the tiem
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: nudge nudge
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: the idea is that Qarl wants to cache the textures for sculpt maps o n the client side as do all sculpty makers that want animation
[13:51] Kooky Jetaime: too bad tgas can't be multiframed, like gifs......
[13:51] Zero Linden: Saijanai - what would a sculptie animation be other than an animation stream of some form?
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: pngs can be multiframes
[13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: my idea was just to allow caching to be a two stage process: cache one sculpty's animation textures then combine it with another's
[13:52] Kooky Jetaime: Why couldn't you play a sculpti anim similar to playing a regular animation
[13:52] Tree Kyomoon: thats what most folks do
[13:52] Squirrel Wood: Mayhaps animated sculpties could use textures in the same way as the normal texture animation where you basically break the texture into several tiles ?
[13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: a texture animation where each frame is a 64x64 square of pixels on a larger texture
[13:52] Zero Linden: Kooky - i believe that is what happens now
[13:52] Kooky Jetaime: ok,
[13:52] Zero Linden: Saijanai - AH that kind of animation - all in one frame
[13:52] Kooky Jetaime: I'll shut up, don't know what I'm talking about..don't play with sculpties :)
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: the point isn't how the server sends the info to hte client, but how the client can specify multiple prims for animation
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: or rather how a script can
[13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: right now, there's no way to start multiple animations with one call
[13:53] Tree Kyomoon: right so you could rez and map sculpties via script?
[13:53] Zero Linden: but in that case, what you are really asking is to do sculptie map animation the same we we do other texture animations -
[13:53] Zero Linden: of course, that is ALL done viewer side
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: yes, but allow multiple prims to use the same map, but in a different way
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: intead of m frames, you have m frames of n sculpties
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: each row of tiles is a frame. Each column of the tiles is for a different culpty
[13:54] Zero Linden: Yes - I see - it is possible, though I wonder how general the technique is ...
[13:54] Zha Ewry thinks not too general
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: quite general. The best sculpty animations are already using multiple sculpties
[13:55] Tree Kyomoon: sounds pretty specialized
[13:55] Zero Linden: and if there wouldn't be a more general structure for manaing animation sets - of regular textures too...
[13:55] Terney McMillan: Is this about improving the graphics of the avatars etc? Because I think its like more of a priority to make the game run smoothly first
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: I saw a horse drawing a haywagon the other day. Each leg was its own animation
[13:55] Kooky Jetaime: No
[13:55] Zero Linden: of course... at this point we're getting dangerously close to SMIL or some such
[13:55] Kooky Jetaime: this is regarding one specific type of prim
[13:55] Terney McMillan: Alright
[13:56] Zero Linden thinkgs game? what game?
[13:56] Zero Linden smiles
[13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: its a relatively simple API. only a few calls: createanimationcache(sculpty, [map_list}, blah);
[13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: with a animatinHandle = at the front
[13:56] Zero Linden: Saijanai- there are no simple APIs! Changes to LSL are forever and we need to think very carefully about each and everyone
[13:56] Tree Kyomoon: so....higher rez sculpties?
[13:56] Kooky Jetaime: Maybe we need some simple apis :)
[13:57] Zero Linden: animation handles, or any kind of handle, introduces a resource concept that then has to be managed
[13:57] Zero Linden: and LSL isn't so good at that
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: then after you've gotten several handles for several sculpties, animationcache = (createanimationhandle( [handle1, handle2,...]);.
[13:57] Zero Linden: when do they get cleaned up?
[13:57] Zero Linden: multiple references?
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: llstartANimation(animationcache);
[13:57] Zero Linden: etc?
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: good question.
[13:57] Rex Cronon: than either lsl has to change, or mono has to take over
[13:57] Zha Ewry: Hard question
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: state changes erase references to listen handles
[13:57] Zha Ewry: Dangling reds are messy
[13:58] Zha Ewry: *refs
[13:58] Zero Linden: Remember that a sim can have thousands of scripts, so we try to avoid things with unbounded memory use
[13:58] Zha Ewry: And ref counting is costly
[13:58] Kooky Jetaime isn't holding his breath on any updates.
[13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: that might not make sense for sculpties, but the other side of the question is: are multiprim animations simply not allowed except viea the current kludge?
[13:58] Zero Linden contemplates dangling reds.....
[13:58] Tree Kyomoon: hey...we just had some major updates! messaging??
[13:58] Kooky Jetaime: Updates such as: Havoc 4, Mono
[13:58] Rex Cronon: what kludge?
[13:58] Zha Ewry: And mono may help slightly on rersource use.. but not that much, as data space, is already half of script space
[13:59] Zero Linden: Saijanai- yes - right now there hasn't been much time to think about the kind of coordination and resource managment that such a facitlity would require
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: start one sculpty. Start the next start the next, change the map, change the map, change the map...
[13:59] Terney McMillan: This convos confusing me ;) So I htink its time I take my leave. Anywhere good for a new person to go?
[13:59] Zero Linden: mind you - people would love such things not just for textures and sculptie maps, but also things like prim parameter changes
[13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: second life library is a great place
[13:59] Tree Kyomoon: sculpties are stopgap anyway right?
[13:59] Bridie Linden: I've gotta run - thanks all, Zero for letting me sit in.
[13:59] Zero Linden: whitness the lotus
[13:59] Terney McMillan: Alright thanks
[13:59] Zero Linden: all those opening and closing of leaves
[13:59] Kooky Jetaime: bye bye birdie
[13:59] Kooky Jetaime: bridie
[13:59] Tree Kyomoon: I mean, we will enventually have access to real nurbs and stuff right?
[14:00] Zero Linden: is done thtough very complex scripting that would really be more like an animation
[14:00] Wyn Galbraith: Go everywhere :)
[14:00] Kooky Jetaime: Tree - who knows maybe in 5 years?
[14:00] Rex Cronon: bye bridie
[14:00] Kooky Jetaime: or 10
[14:00] Zero Linden: Well all -
[14:00] Tree Kyomoon: no way, I say a year
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: I guess it was not at all asimple question...
[14:00] Zero Linden: alas, it is 2pm and I have another meeting .... so I must big a quick adieu
[14:00] Wyn Galbraith: bye bye Bridie, Bridie bye bye
[14:00] Zero Linden: laters all!
[14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: take care Zero
[14:00] Zero Linden: I'll be here thursday this week
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