AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-09-28

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  • [12:54] Squirrel Wood: Anyone know of a sim where I can wreak Terraformin' havok?
  • [12:54] Rex Cronon: what do u mean?
  • [12:54] JayR Cela: lol / squirrel
  • [12:55] Saijanai Kuhn: the hippo sandbox maybe?
  • [12:56] Squirrel Wood: the hippo sim has one parcel with no object entry set and I'd need the full sim terraformable
  • [12:56] Morgaine Dinova: Heh. Talking of which, I sure hope they stopped the BL sims havoc ... 22 sims full of house-sized physical bouncing cubes wasn't pleasant. We'll certainly need more enti-griefing power in SL2.
  • [12:56] Rex Cronon: do u want to test weapons, or to terraform?
  • [12:56] Squirrel Wood: I need to do some scripting on a tool that involves terraforming.
  • [12:57] Squirrel Wood: on an estate wide base.
  • [12:57] Tillie Ariantho: very nice one. :)
  • [12:57] Morgaine Dinova: Squirrel just wants to bury some nuts ... winter's coming ;-)
  • [12:57] Tillie Ariantho: haha
  • [12:57] Squirrel Wood: LOL ^^
  • [12:57] Wyn Galbraith: If I had a sim I'd let you Squirrel. Just to watch it work.
  • [12:58] Squirrel Wood: heh :)
  • [12:59] Tillie Ariantho: Squirrel!
  • [12:59] Tillie Ariantho: There is a terraforming sandbox from the lindens!
  • [12:59] Tillie Ariantho: called terraform me
  • [12:59] Wyn Galbraith: Whoop! That's right.
  • [12:59] Tillie Ariantho: you can open a ticket for that then you get permission. :)
  • [13:00] Wyn Galbraith: Oh wait, don't you have to be a member?
  • [13:00] Wyn Galbraith: Oh. Maybe not.
  • [13:00] Tillie Ariantho: oh hm.. you have to be concierge customer. But maybe the lindens let you in anyway....
  • [13:00] Tillie Ariantho: Whom did you show your tool yesterday, what was his name?
  • [13:00] Tillie Ariantho: the Linden?
  • [13:01] Tillie Ariantho: maybe he can help.
  • [13:02] Tillie Ariantho: At least I would try that. :)
  • [13:03] Squirrel Wood:  :)
  • [13:03] Squirrel Wood: I ain't a concierge level member
  • [13:03] Tillie Ariantho: "Terraforming sandbox for concierge customers" ...
  • [13:03] Tillie Ariantho: if you know someone who has a Linden island ... :)
  • [13:04] Tillie Ariantho: I have mine from ACS, so I cant help.
  • [13:04] Squirrel Wood: heh
  • [13:04] Tillie Ariantho: Name and description are "Terraforming sandbox for concierge customers" and "Please open a support ticket if you wish to have time on here", so it should work for all who have an island.
  • [13:16] Squirrel Wood: There is a sim named "Terraforming Sandbox" but it is group owned and one can't get in
  • [13:16] Zha Ewry: Where?
  • [13:16] Squirrel Wood: and no way to find out which group owns it...
  • [13:16] Zha Ewry: LOL
  • [13:17] Squirrel Wood: south of the sim "Virgo"
  • [13:19] Tillie Ariantho: Zha, any idea for the date/time of the meeting you want to do?
  • [13:20] Morgaine Dinova: A regular slot would be good.
  • [13:21] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, around the lots of office hours, at least the important ones. .)
  • [13:21] Tillie Ariantho: Maybe 1-3 days before we have the architecture meeting with the lindens, so we can make our own little agenda ans stuff.
  • [13:22] Tillie Ariantho: That way we can go to the official meeting well prepared.
  • [13:22] Wyn Galbraith: Good idea.
  • [13:22] Wyn Galbraith: I may be gone next week. Won't know until later tonight.
  • [13:22] Tillie Ariantho: Like get all things we have in mind, cut it down to the important ones ...
  • [13:23] Tillie Ariantho: I can be available every time next week, I have holidays.
  • [13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Well hopefully there will be in depth feedback through the wiki once Zero gets back, so physical meetings can be mainly fill-in and high-media data. Otherwise people who can't get to CA get a bit marginalized, not by intent but by the practicalities.
  • [13:25] Zha Ewry: Well, yes
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: Tho.. I am thining.. that. if Linden is clever. and I will prod them gently with this
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: they ought to hold several F2Fs in parallel with in world meetings.. and do the
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: F2Fs in several different geographies
  • [13:31] Morgaine Dinova: Or we could use RL technology. How about a networked whiteboard or webcam for starters ... :-) Personally though, I thought that was what SL was meant to replace!!!!
  • [13:32] Zha Ewry: Yeah.. Well.. we can see how some in world casuals do, with a very strong "Techies only" focus
  • [13:33] Tillie Ariantho: There is a nice 1L whiteboard that has movable pointers and stuff. :)
  • [13:33] Morgaine Dinova: Ie. you've got to take your own medicine, or practice what you preach or whatever the right metaphor is :-)
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: Eat your own dogfood, is the current Sillicon Valley phrase
  • [13:34] Tillie Ariantho: What about a chat to irc / web gateway? That way even people at work ,D could join a meeting.
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: Ahm. I am sitting at work at this very instant ;-)
  • [13:34] Tillie Ariantho: Yeah, but not all can do that. .P
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: But. I am, I grant, an anomoloy
  • [13:34] Tillie Ariantho: Are you? :)
  • [13:35] Zha Ewry: Oh, in so very many ways. Actually getting paid to do things like fly out to Linden Labs and spend a day of Big Blues time to work on this stuff
  • [13:35] Tillie Ariantho: I'd like that, too. :-Q
  • [13:37] Tillie Ariantho: But I have to complain about developers all day, who check in sourcecode that is pretty bad and brings in stuff that isnt covered by our build process.
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: I work from home, Or play from home. And the choice of work and play is my own, and I define them as I like. :-) But yes, IRC is a bit better than in-game IM. For starters I have it feeding into Festival, so can listen to you from the sofa.
  • [13:37] Zha Ewry: I should have a nice quiet SL meadow, with sits, and a few display boards set up and group accessible in the next day or so.. and we can schedule some casual chat sessions
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I love the idea of slacking in a meadow :-)
  • [13:37] Tillie Ariantho: Please no US afternoon time meetings, thats in the middle of the night for me.
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: I see no reasons for floors, and walls, and conference room tables in a virtual world
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: What TZ are you?
  • [13:38] Tillie Ariantho: If you want to sit in a japanese village with lots of trees, we can meet at my island some time, too. :)
  • [13:38] Tillie Ariantho: GMT+1
  • [13:38] Tillie Ariantho: right now it is 22.38 for me.
  • [13:39] Morgaine Dinova: I'm GMT as well, UK. But the sun doesn't set in SL ... there isn't a perfect time for everyone. I'll adapt, whatever.
  • [13:39] Wyn Galbraith: Ihate to admit that I've never used IRC. How do I go about doing so now
  • [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: Grab xchat on Linux, or mIRC on Windows ... dunno about Macs.
  • [13:40] Zha Ewry: mIRC is my pref for windows
  • [13:40] Wyn Galbraith: has Trillian, "It does IRC."
  • [13:40] Tillie Ariantho: I am using the opera chat client. .)
  • [13:41] Zha Ewry: But.. lets see if anyone needs an IRC or if we can stay in world
  • [13:41] Tree Kyomoon: holy cow I just realized Ive been online all this time
  • [13:41] Zha Ewry: Hey Tree!
  • [13:41] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, no, I meant IRC for those who cannot attend physically in SL ...
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: Then connect to a server like irc.freenode.net:6667
  • [13:41] Tillie Ariantho: Hello Tree, how is growing? .P
  • [13:41] Tree Kyomoon: hey there folks!
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tree
  • [13:42] Tree Kyomoon: anyone try out my little wikifier?
  • [13:42] Zha Ewry: And ideally do a two way bridge, we need a chat bot
  • [13:42] Tillie Ariantho: Tree: we have no chatlog yet. .)
  • [13:42] Morgaine Dinova: That's a good point. Presumably people have made SL IM->IRC gatways.
  • [13:42] Tillie Ariantho: Can a chatbot inside SL get addressed from outside or must it PULL the data?
  • [13:45] Zha Ewry: You can do xml-rpc to it
  • [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: A related question is, did XML-RPC ever get extended to make outgoing connections, or still one-way only?
  • [13:45] Tillie Ariantho: I am a noob at that. .)
  • [13:47] Wyn Galbraith: is too. "Don't feel like the lone stranger.
  • [13:47] Tree Kyomoon: listening to Thom Dowd play 16th century flute music at princeton if anyone is interested :)
  • [13:48] Tree Kyomoon: [1]
  • [13:48] Morgaine Dinova: Oh excellent Tree, I've been hopping around live music events as I always do. Missed that one.
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: That's why I'm so into scalability for events :-) It's hurting right now.
  • [13:49] Tree Kyomoon: we're partying like its 1599!
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: Hehehe
  • [13:49] Zha Ewry: Chuckle.
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: Oh, Say, morgaine? For you big crowd use cases, you only care about having the sense of many peopel in one public square, not how we do it computationally, right?
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: eg. you don't care how many servers are needed to dance your 5000 ave conga line past Zero's Office hours
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Hardly. I'm an engineer, all this hand waving is only a means to an end. I don't propose anything unless I know how to implement it. :-)
  • [13:51] Tree Kyomoon: is really curious who Morgaine is in real life...
  • [13:51] Tillie Ariantho: Bill Gates. :P
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Random person. Like we all are :-)
  • [13:52] Zha Ewry: Well, sure.. but if I say, "Ok, we can do it, with the following approach, which turns out to be 300 servers. to suport 10,000 aves appearing to be in one stadium, your, ok?"
  • [13:52] Tree Kyomoon: /either extremely smart, or constantly packing an unabridged dictionary
  • [13:53] Tillie Ariantho: Switching to my self compiled Mac Client. :)
  • [13:53] Tree Kyomoon: Ooooo cool!
  • [13:53] Tree Kyomoon: (uber nerd cool anyway)
  • [13:53] Zha Ewry: Don't we all pack those dictionaries?
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: well, one can only do as much as the available resources, and more importantly the algorithms used, allow. And LL has *tons* of CPU totally idling in vacant regions.
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: Yep.
  • [13:54] Tillie Ariantho: back =)
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: They have the problem that they use the same resources to support a
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: sim with 1 user and 1 prim as 80 users and 14,999 prims
  • [13:54] Squirrel Wood: Ta!
  • [13:54] Morgaine Dinova: That's the trouble with static resource allocation. Which is why that approach can never scale, and so I'm always moving things towards dynamic approaches.
  • [13:55] Squirrel Wood: I am about to do a first test run of the terraformer on "Terraform Me"
  • [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: This music is lovely btw Tree
  • [13:55] Zha Ewry: yep. I want to define the grid, in terms of edges and visibility and simply say "look, it has to tesselate in 3d, but a uniform chunk size is silly"
  • [13:56] Zha Ewry: (and.. if defined right, it needn't even tesselate"
  • [13:56] Tillie Ariantho: Squirrel: found a sim? :)
  • [13:56] Tree Kyomoon: glad you like it :)
  • [13:56] Tree Kyomoon: I do too
  • [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Heh, with portals, I think you're looking at hyperdimensional manifolds. But yes, I agree.
  • [13:56] Tillie Ariantho: What is tesselation? ,)
  • [13:56] Tree Kyomoon: tesseract?
  • [13:57] Tree Kyomoon: hyperspacial cubes?
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: fill the surface, without gaps, roughtlu
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: squares nicely tesselate, so do hexagones
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: Circles don't.
  • [13:57] Tree Kyomoon: would love to have a hypercube shaped sim
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: (and in 3d, cubes do, spheres font)
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: *dont)
  • [13:58] Morgaine Dinova: Subdividing in a given number of dimensions without altering the number. In graphics it usually means splitting an area into triangles.
  • [13:58] Zha Ewry: If you define the edge connections nicely you can build anything you want
  • [13:59] Tree Kyomoon: would fullerenes fit that description?
  • [13:59] Zha Ewry: An edge connection realy ought to be a "Tell me what I see, looking into your piece of virtual world from this relative poisition"
  • [13:59] Zha Ewry: And.. some services to ease handoff across the boundary, so it is walking, not TP like
  • [13:59] Zha Ewry: (eg. my current client (url) is approaching your border at location Z
  • [14:00] Tillie Ariantho: in princeton too, listening. =)
  • [14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: yes, sort of, as the surface of a football is tesselated into hexagons + pentagons. But in graphics it's usually done all the way into triangles.
  • [14:00] Tree Kyomoon: Zha do you think it will ever be possible for us In SL to have soccer ball shaped sims all connected at all those sides?
  • [14:00] Wyn Galbraith: oos.
  • [14:00] Tree Kyomoon: in all 3 dimensions?
  • [14:00] Zha Ewry: Well, if I have any say in the next gen archecture, sure
  • [14:01] Tree Kyomoon: ok I vote for Zha's say!
  • [14:01] Wyn Galbraith: Second Space, the final frontier...
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: Sure... we need only define the edge conenctions right
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: No, in a given number of dimensions, fixed. Eg. the surface of a football (2D) is subdivided into smaller pieces (also 2D).
  • [14:02] Zha Ewry: The way we get coherent adjacent spaces.. is the viewport service. so we can handle seein in
  • [14:02] Zha Ewry: and then, a service for hand-off (my agent is approaching, get ready for handoff) and a way to say
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: The volume of the football isn't tessalted. But if you had a D hypercube, you could tesselate it in 3D. Although it would hurt my brain to think about that :-)
  • [14:02] Zha Ewry: my edge X, is next to your edge Y.
  • [14:02] Tree Kyomoon: /would be good if your first name was "pete", your middle name, "zha" I think.
  • [14:03] Morgaine Dinova: s/D/4D/
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: Groan
  • [14:04] Tree Kyomoon: apologies, didnt mean to type that
  • [14:04] Tree Kyomoon: it was my evil twin
  • [14:08] Zha Ewry: chuckle
  • [14:08] Zha Ewry: Bad roots, no doubt
  • [14:08] Tillie Ariantho:  :p
  • [14:09] Tree Kyomoon: what does zha come from/mean anyway?
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: Totally synthetic
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: short from my mid 1990s RP ave
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: in mud space
  • [14:09] Tillie Ariantho: Ouch, yes. :p
  • [14:10] Tree Kyomoon: I was in compuserve in those days...spending 1500 bucks a month on chat rooms
  • [14:10] Tillie Ariantho: MUDs where evil, too...
  • [14:10] Tree Kyomoon: for one month
  • [14:11] Tillie Ariantho: With gods changing room connections while you were wandering around, drawing a map. .P
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: So, the full name was Zharanja, but everyone called me Zha
  • [14:11] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, lazy people...
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: So.. for SL. I saved you all the typing
  • [14:12] Tree Kyomoon: Zharanja, is that from a fiction book?
  • [14:12] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [14:12] Zha Ewry: newp
  • [14:12] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
  • [14:12] Tillie Ariantho: I wonder why SL has no nick-completion at <tab>
  • [14:12] Wyn Galbraith: Wyn is short for Elwyndas, my log standing RP name.
  • [14:13] Tree Kyomoon: Zharanja, Night Elf, Druid, 29, Aug 13, 07.
  • [14:13] Wyn Galbraith: *long not log
  • [14:13] Morgaine Dinova: Morgaine is from an SF book, The Chronicles of Morgaine, by C.J. Cherryh. Not the similar name from Arthurian legend.
  • [14:13] Tree Kyomoon: (from google)
  • [14:13] Tillie Ariantho: Tillie is short for... Tillie. .D
  • [14:13] Wyn Galbraith: Elwyndas means Elf Friend, came from a book but I can't remember which one.
  • [14:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hehehe
  • [14:13] Tillie Ariantho: I have a Tillie in all online games I played.
  • [14:14] Tree Kyomoon: Tree is from, well, trees
  • [14:14] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [14:14] Tillie Ariantho: That is Anarchy Online, StarWars Galaxies, EverQuest, WOW, and some more I already forgot,
  • [14:14] Tree Kyomoon: I believe trees appear in some SF books.
  • [14:14] Morgaine Dinova: Trees are good. I like to have O(1) arrays available too though ... :-(
  • [14:14] Wyn Galbraith: Ah the frogs are back! I'm going outside in RL
  • [14:15] Tillie Ariantho: frogs?
  • [14:15] Wyn Galbraith: Yep, in my pond.
  • [14:15] Tillie Ariantho: Knock, knock, frogs knocking on my door.... .)
  • [14:17] Tree Kyomoon: has a frog pond in the yard too, nothing like thier songs to lull me to sleep
  • [14:17] Wyn Galbraith: It wasn't suppose to be a frog pond, they just moved in last year. Then left and now are back, just heard them.
  • [14:18] Morgaine Dinova: I think I have lions in the garden/meadow. Missionaries that enter one side don't come out the other, so it's a viable theory.
  • [14:18] Tillie Ariantho: I have some horses like 100m away. =) Hear their hrrring every now and then . :)
  • [14:21] Zha Ewry: I have Buildings
  • [14:21] Zha Ewry: Lots of buidings
  • [14:21] Tree Kyomoon: the only buildings I can see I own
  • [14:23] Tillie Ariantho: Me too.
  • [14:23] Tillie Ariantho: All I see is the wall of my house. .P
  • [14:23] Tree Kyomoon: lol
  • [14:23] Tree Kyomoon: no windows?
  • [14:23] Zha Ewry: Well, in my office, I get trees and hawks, but at home... It's
  • [14:23] Zha Ewry: Bits of Manhatan all the way down
  • [14:24] Tree Kyomoon: you are right in new york?
  • [14:24] Tree Kyomoon: cool!
  • [14:24] Tillie Ariantho: Windows closed, its pitch dark outside anyway.
  • [14:24] Tillie Ariantho: 23.24 here
  • [14:24] Zha Ewry: Yeah, We're an urrban family 2 kids, and NYC public schools.
  • [14:25] Morgaine Dinova: Well, I'm in the UK, so it'll be pitch dark now until March .... or pitch grey anyway.
  • [14:25] Zha Ewry: And.. damp at best, Morgaine...
  • [14:25] Tree Kyomoon: we'll have to do dinner next time we come visit, we did the MET last time and have to do the natural history museum next time
  • [14:25] Morgaine Dinova: Pich damp, haha
  • [14:25] Wyn Galbraith: thinks it's going to rain.
  • [14:25] Zha Ewry: Remind me to not suggest the next in world at brighton
  • [14:26] Zha Ewry: Save that for.. april. or so, when it gets nice
  • [14:26] Morgaine Dinova: Incredibly, we have an Olympics scheduled here in some years ... I can just see it, synchronized dancing in the rain ...
  • [14:26] Tree Kyomoon: its damp but still light out here in Nova Scotia
  • [14:27] Zha Ewry: So.. who wants to put up c-http endpoints in October?
  • [14:27] Tree Kyomoon: trees are beginning to turn red and gold
  • [14:28] Zha Ewry: And, Wyn.. do you want to come up with test case code to try and break them?
  • [14:28] Tree Kyomoon: still doesnt really understand c-HTTP
  • [14:28] Zha Ewry: Heh.
  • [14:28] Tillie Ariantho: endpoints, you mean example services?
  • [14:28] Zha Ewry: Its a very simple construct
  • [14:28] Tillie Ariantho: deponds on how complicated that will be.
  • [14:28] Tillie Ariantho: depends
  • [14:28] Zha Ewry: We can start with an echo service ;-)
  • [14:29] Tillie Ariantho: Whats required to do?
  • [14:29] Zha Ewry: c-http, basically, says "when you call me," I'll keep track of your request in a hardened store.. and either fulfill it, or fail it.
  • [14:29] Zha Ewry: Putting the REST idemporency into the http request
  • [14:29] Tree Kyomoon: right but it can keep lots and lots of them and they dont necessarily know about each other right?
  • [14:30] Zha Ewry: so.. if you re-reuqest it. I can say "newp, did that already"
  • [14:30] Tillie Ariantho: So the service has to save somewhere that it did a request?
  • [14:31] Zha Ewry: The transport stack. This lets us keep it seperate form each service
  • [14:31] Tree Kyomoon: yes thats where I get confused as well, seems like a pretty big potential quagmire
  • [14:31] Zha Ewry: well, REST forces some of this on you
  • [14:31] Zha Ewry: There are three models for doing REST.
  • [14:31] Tree Kyomoon: so where does the transport stack live?
  • [14:31] Zha Ewry: One is you get a new URL from each reuqest.
  • [14:32] Zha Ewry: (and as thr service, you bounce as invalid any subsequent reuqests to a URL which has been used
  • [14:32] Morgaine Dinova: That's not idempotent is it, if it gives a different result the second time? It should respond with OK both times, indistinguishably, as if it was received only once.
  • [14:32] Zha Ewry: Well, you can define it several ways.
  • [14:32] Zha Ewry: It should repsond OK, and reurn the same state, in fact
  • [14:32] Zha Ewry: That's what c-hhtp calls for)
  • [14:32] Zha Ewry: Yes
  • [14:33] Zha Ewry: and.. you can do some of it with cookies, and it's REALLY ugly
  • [14:33] Zha Ewry: and. this is.. using stored requests to track it.. and header bits like cookies
  • [14:34] Zha Ewry: So.. the stack acts as the gaurdien of idempotency, hopefully
  • [14:34] Zha Ewry: (If I read the wiki correctly, and haen't blended what they are syaing, with what I nkow from REST)
  • [14:35] Zha Ewry: My sense, is that if this, plus capabitlies plus some form of subscription turn out to be the buiding blocks we want to build them out early and validate them
  • [14:35] Tree Kyomoon: is c-HTTP actually working or is it just a proposed technology at the moment?
  • [14:35] Zha Ewry: Its based of some work wihich was done in 2005-2006.. and there is a java implementation of it
  • [14:36] Tree Kyomoon: publicly available?
  • [14:36] Zha Ewry: There are people coding up Linden's impl of it as we speak (Well, IBM and Lindens) Hmm. I think so. Let me google.
  • [14:37] Tillie Ariantho: I have to setup java on my server then...
  • [14:37] Tillie Ariantho: It's not preinstalled.
  • [14:37] Morgaine Dinova: No harm having those building blocks anyway. As long as having only hammers doesn't make us look at all things as nails. :-) This project isn't necessarily going to use web technology only. Although we hope most of it is.
  • [14:37] Tree Kyomoon: lol good analogy Morgaine
  • [14:38] Zha Ewry: Hints here.
  • [14:38] Zha Ewry: [2]
  • [14:39] Zha Ewry: Well, one of my key desierata, is "use W3C level web tech, wheneever possible"
  • [14:39] Tree Kyomoon: so is IBM going to buy SL one of these days?
  • [14:39] Zha Ewry: I'm a techie. Not a business type.
  • [14:39] Zha Ewry: They don't ask me
  • [14:39] Morgaine Dinova: Well fortunately web techology has been optimized to hell, and works pretty well, so we like it. But it's just one tool in the toolbox.
  • [14:39] Tillie Ariantho:  :p
  • [14:39] Zha Ewry: Yep
  • [14:40] Zha Ewry: But.. in general... what you're going to hear me say, until you get tired of it.. is "Well, can we do this with web appraoch X, and if not, why not, and how can we extend it, and bring it back to the web community"
  • [14:40] Tree Kyomoon: is HTTPR essentially the same as c-HTTP?
  • [14:41] Zha Ewry: I think, that the approahc is simialr, but lighter
  • [14:41] Tree Kyomoon: yes, me too zha
  • [14:41] Tree Kyomoon: to me SL has to meet the web where its at now
  • [14:41] Tree Kyomoon: the line between SL and the 2d web should be really blurry
  • [14:41] Zha Ewry: A nice convergence, over time, is my goal
  • [14:42] Tree Kyomoon: yes Im totally in favor of that too
  • [14:42] Morgaine Dinova: That's a good approach, to reuse web tech, and web knowhow. Not only effiencient in our time, but usually fast too. And well supported by bespoke hardware like load balancers.
  • [14:43] Zha Ewry: Yes
  • [14:43] Zha Ewry: I wish, that LInden tossed in a few more of those
  • [14:43] Zha Ewry: I suspect if they had looked at thier utitlites as frontended by load spayers..
  • [14:43] Tree Kyomoon: thats why I think making lsl ECMA would make it so much more instantly adoptable
  • [14:43] Zha Ewry: they wuold scale a lot better
  • [14:44] Tillie Ariantho: ECMA?
  • [14:44] Tree Kyomoon: ECMA compliant yes
  • [14:44] Zha Ewry: Eh.. LSL.. will joing milltions of other oddball langauges on the scrapheap, when they finally allow a real language for scripting
  • [14:44] Tree Kyomoon: like C# and actionscript
  • [14:44] Tree Kyomoon: yes
  • [14:44] Zha Ewry: LSL has, I think 1 cool thing, which is the state handling
  • [14:44] Tree Kyomoon: as long as whatever they adopt is totally integrated in the viewer
  • [14:45] Tree Kyomoon: so we still have the immersive development experience
  • [14:45] Zha Ewry: The rest is far to reminiscent of bad things from RSTS/E and the cmodore PET
  • [14:45] Zha Ewry: shows age
  • [14:46] Tillie Ariantho: For me the LSL states just look like a GOTO into another block of code. .P
  • [14:46] Tree Kyomoon: my first compy was a "sharp pocket computer" with a heat set printer with little ball point pen styluses
  • [14:46] Tree Kyomoon: and a 128x16 lcd display
  • [14:46] Zha Ewry: Heh. They are.. but with a bunch of handlers registered on the fly.
  • [14:47] Morgaine Dinova: Well, LSL is one of only an extremely few widely used languages that implement a state machine directly. So "normal" languages don't really compete, unless you give them an FSM overcoat.
  • [14:47] Zha Ewry: Which is kind of cool
  • [14:48] Tree Kyomoon: Good point Morgaine
  • [14:48] Zha Ewry: Yeah, the state machine is nice, tho.. i want an OO approach to it
  • [14:48] Zha Ewry: Want to say, this handler is shared across these states
  • [14:48] Morgaine Dinova: I assume that if Mono is ever exposed, it won't look quite like a normal C# program, structurally.
  • [14:49] Zha Ewry: Mono is pure runtime
  • [14:49] Zha Ewry: So.. the question is what happens if you compile a C# program to the mono runtime and hook it to the SL environemnt. How do you get events?
  • [14:50] Morgaine Dinova: OO is only useful within event handlers. The state machine is flat, at any given level. Although you can nest them of course, but nested FSMs aren't OO.
  • [14:52] Zha Ewry: The trick, I think.. and OO isn't quite the right word, is to tease out things so I can have one
  • [14:53] Morgaine Dinova: Usual callback approach I guess. But I doubt there would be a top level visible to scripters. The event dispatcher would be hidden. Just guessing though.
  • [14:53] Zha Ewry: event listener and related code active in a bunch of states. Riight now, if I use states too deeply, I end up with tons of stuff to get the same entry point called again and again
  • [14:53] Zha Ewry: Yeah, I think you'd have a C# shell, sort of (wince() like tclsh.. which handles the even loop
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: And the scripter codes callbacks in clustser per state, or some such
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: But.. in the near term, you do know that mono only gets the same address space as the LSL engine?
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: So tiny scripts
  • [14:55] Zha Ewry: (In Linden land, anyway, we can design the spec right to do much more)
  • [14:55] Tree Kyomoon: seems a bit overhead intensive
  • [14:56] Zha Ewry: Which does, Tree?
  • [14:56] Tree Kyomoon: having a mono c# shell
  • [14:56] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, heard that. But the reason for it was sound, given the current architecture. Of course my response is that that's a natural disaster stemming from static allocation of resources, lol.
  • [14:57] Tree Kyomoon: seems like it would just be easier to extend libsl and add objects/arrays to LSL
  • [14:57] Zha Ewry: well.. Yes, and no.
  • [14:57] Tree Kyomoon: and add more hooks to the client
  • [14:57] Zha Ewry: The client, just gets the syntax and such. It doesn't do the heavy lifting on the LSL code
  • [14:58] Tree Kyomoon: really? that seems backwards
  • [14:58] Zha Ewry: And. yes, the script limitatoins deal with questions like. What on earth do we do with 10,000 scripted objects?
  • [14:58] Tree Kyomoon: at least for some things
  • [14:58] Zha Ewry: Well, scripts all run, and compile server side.
  • [14:59] Tree Kyomoon: would be good if that could just be an attribute of a script
  • [14:59] Zha Ewry: Well. mostly.
  • [14:59] Tree Kyomoon: compile serverside/or client side
  • [14:59] Zha Ewry: There's some odd stuff
  • [14:59] Tree Kyomoon: particularly for HUD scripts
  • [15:00] Tree Kyomoon: but Im no technical wiz in this area, just gut feeling here
  • [15:02] Zha Ewry: I try not to look in the client.. because its fsarking GPL.. but.. I think that the heavy lifting is still done server side.
  • [15:02] Morgaine Dinova: Only client-side scales with population, so yeah, the server shouldn't do more than a bare minimum.
  • [15:03] Morgaine Dinova: LOL, Zha sure gets wound up by licenses :-)
  • [15:03] Zha Ewry: Well.. The servers are going to grow proportional to population, but yes, you'd like to keep the fraction small
  • [15:03] Tree Kyomoon: thats what IM thinking, like you could throw big calculations and data stuff out to the client to solve, and by client I mean users computer, not the SL client necessarily
  • [15:03] Zha Ewry: personally couldn't casre less, but /me as an employee of the big blue monolith needs to pay atttention to licenses
  • [15:04] Tree Kyomoon: but all that could be done now, all you would need to do is create an SL client that had its own interpreter/language
  • [15:04] Tree Kyomoon: does IBM provide the servers to SL?
  • [15:04] Zha Ewry: Nah
  • [15:04] Tillie Ariantho: Anyone read the sldev post by sabin linden? about SL login via website?
  • [15:04] Zha Ewry: Or if we do, only in the sense we'll sell blades and pizza box servers to anyone
  • [15:05] Tillie Ariantho: Makes it harder to use many different clients on the same computer. :-/
  • [15:05] Tree Kyomoon: Does that have something to do with OpenID?
  • [15:05] Zha Ewry: I think it has to do with getting out of the phising spots but ick
  • [15:05] Tillie Ariantho: You call a webpage, it sets a key and redirects you via secondlife:// ...
  • [15:06] Tree Kyomoon: so zha what did you mean then by " big blue monolith needs to pay atttention to licenses"
  • [15:06] Tillie Ariantho: So if you are using the stable client, the first look and the nicholaz edition, you have to wrap them now all into a batch to reset the webhandler ...