AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16

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  • [9:24] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: MystiTool Controller 1.0: /1 help - Free memory: 9161
  • [9:24] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
  • [9:24] Connected undefined:
  • [9:25] Teleport completed: from [1]
  • [9:25] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: James Benedek (1m), Teravus Ousley (1m), Hydra Shaftoe (2m), Valiant Westland (4m), lyndell Aleixandre (5m), Saijanai Kuhn (5m), TUX Hultcrantz (5m), Bjorlyn Loon (6m), Tess Linden (6m), FWord Utorid (8m)
  • [9:25] Connecting to: in-world Voice Chat...
  • [9:25] Connected undefined:
  • [9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Group_IM_in_OGP#Approaches
  • [9:25] Bartholomew Kleiber: Hi all
  • [9:25] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Amni Pinazzo (0m)
  • [9:25] Tess Linden: oh yeah EventQueueGet
  • [9:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Son had to cancel his appointment today, so I'm here anyway
  • [9:26] Amni Pinazzo: hello everyone
  • [9:26] Saijanai Kuhn: was just going to be a transcript bot today, but I'm here in teh flesh (so to speak)
  • [9:27] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Cane Janick (5m)
  • [9:27] Saijanai Kuhn: chat
  • [9:27] Valiant Westland: Even "botter" Saijanai
  • [9:27] Bjorlyn Loon: lol Valiant
  • [9:27] FWord Utorid: teravus, you sound like a TTS engine of evil
  • [9:27] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol
  • [9:28] FWord Utorid: this is too weird. forest gump and hal 666
  • [9:28] James Benedek: lol.
  • [9:28] Bjorlyn Loon: Hydra, you have an amazing voice.
  • [9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao is on vacation and he's a Dane anyway
  • [9:28] Bjorlyn Loon: ha
  • [9:28] Valiant Westland: Thats OK... I was told I sounded like "Shadow" the other day...
  • [9:28] Bartholomew Kleiber: A dane? nah
  • [9:28] Bjorlyn Loon: I expected Hydra to look like a good ol boy in rl
  • [9:28] Saijanai Kuhn: my sister was bitten by a m00se!
  • [9:28] Bjorlyn Loon: not at all
  • [9:28] Bjorlyn Loon: no you dont!
  • [9:29] FWord Utorid: i think it would be cool if there was a Gary Coleman avatar, and we all looked like Gary Coleman.
  • [9:29] Cane Janick: lol
  • [9:29] Bjorlyn Loon: since we havent started yet, I just got out of a meeting with NPR's science friday
  • [9:29] Valiant Westland: That would be "Different"
  • [9:29] Teravus Ousley: moose bytes are a sticky bit
  • [9:29] Valiant Westland: Moose STINK!
  • [9:29] FWord Utorid: \61 topless
  • [9:29] Bjorlyn Loon: they are going to be taking a look at what you all are doing, so dont be surprised to get an IM from them
  • [9:30] FWord Utorid: muaha you are all bare chested now
  • [9:30] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Arda Xi (6m)
  • [9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: should I invite them to group?
  • [9:30] FWord Utorid: \61 addnipples teravus ousley
  • [9:30] Multi Gadget: v2.0.3b by Timeless Prototype, '/44 info'
  • [9:30] Bjorlyn Loon: I gave them Saijanai, Zha, Zero, Adam and Zha as contacts
  • [9:30] Bjorlyn Loon: whoops at Zha twice
  • [9:30] Bjorlyn Loon: sure, Saijanai
  • [9:30] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Dream Land (6m)
  • [9:31] Bjorlyn Loon: Invite Ira Flatley too
  • [9:31] Tess Linden: im trying to get slides up and running
  • [9:32] Bjorlyn Loon: Fword, dont the pixels all run to your brain in that position?
  • [9:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Stirling Allen (6m)
  • [9:32] James Benedek: lol
  • [9:32] sl-ime ver1.2.1: [script:sl-ime fly_control]: Script run-time error
  • [9:32] sl-ime ver1.2.1: [script:sl-ime fly_control]: Bounds Check Error
  • [9:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: 01 Hifeng (6m)
  • [9:32] lyndell Aleixandre: lol
  • [9:32] lyndell Aleixandre: kaboom
  • [9:33] Bjorlyn Loon: hi 01, long time no see
  • [9:33] 01 Hifeng: hey :)
  • [9:33] FWord Utorid: thanks for coming to the first annual kitten sacrifice here at BMI
  • [9:33] Bjorlyn Loon: always wondered if there was an 02 Hifeng
  • [9:33] Bjorlyn Loon: no abusing kittens!
  • [9:33] 01 Hifeng: lol
  • [9:34] FWord Utorid: bjorlyn, it's not abuse to sacrifice them to the frog god
  • [9:34] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Zero Linden (6m), Ruud Lathrop (6m)
  • [9:34] FWord Utorid: it is an honor
  • [9:34] James Benedek: everyone spawning on my head D:
  • [9:34] FWord Utorid: sai, make sure you type in what everyone says for your log
  • [9:34] Bjorlyn Loon: I suppose it depends on your perspective
  • [9:34] FWord Utorid: james, that's nasty
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm... no Zha? probably taking a break
  • [9:34] Zero Linden: where? where?
  • [9:34] Bjorlyn Loon: lol hi Zero
  • [9:34] Valiant Westland: Hi Zero
  • [9:34] FWord Utorid: don't spawn on james head, this is a family show
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: its a zero
  • [9:34] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Rex Cronon (6m), Whump Linden (6m)
  • [9:34] Ruud Lathrop: oops
  • [9:35] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Bjorlyn Loon (13m)
  • [9:35] James Benedek: lol.. think this maybe the land tp spot
  • [9:35] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Dream Land (14m)
  • [9:35] Tess Linden: zero your slides dont work :(
  • [9:35] FWord Utorid: oh crap, it's the lindens. everyone hide!
  • [9:35] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [9:35] FWord Utorid: maybe if you stand still they won't notice you
  • [9:35] Bjorlyn Loon: hush, Lindens are mostly nice
  • [9:35] Saijanai Kuhn: who invited THEM?
  • [9:35] Hydra Shaftoe: just sells phones.
  • [9:35] James Benedek: what are lindens? :P
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: Wump, Tess, are you presenting today?
  • [9:36] FWord Utorid: james, lindens are a breed of monkey on the 404 page of secondlife.com that bang on things
  • [9:36] Tess Linden: yep
  • [9:36] Bjorlyn Loon: as are we all
  • [9:36] Tess Linden: I'm having trouble getting this slide show to work
  • [9:36] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Infinity Linden (6m), Dale Innis (8m)
  • [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: The hive mind is here in Totality!
  • [9:36] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: 01 Hifeng (10m)
  • [9:37] Dale Innis: kewl
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: drops two sitting places faces the space
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: Why don't you grab those two
  • [9:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Zha Ewry (4m)
  • [9:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Zha Ewry (6m)
  • [9:38] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Dale Innis (12m)
  • [9:38] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Whump Linden (7m), Dream Land (14m)
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: settles down on the grass to listen
  • [9:38] FWord Utorid: press play
  • [9:38] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Cane Janick (10m)
  • [9:38] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Infinity Linden (9m)
  • [9:38] Cane Janick: YEah I gave up on that Infinity
  • [9:38] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Dream Land (14m)
  • [9:38] Whump Linden: gah, I can't walk
  • [9:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: James Benedek (6m), Cane Janick (10m)
  • [9:39] Infinity Linden: it's okay.. i can crane my head around 360 degrees like in the exorcist
  • [9:39] Tess Linden: hey everyone, today's topic is on Solutions to Chat
  • [9:39] Dale Innis: hope you're waterproof
  • [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: not surprising you're a floating drone
  • [9:39] FWord Utorid: whump, you are supposed to say 'I can't feel my legs'
  • [9:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: Loki Clifton (6m), Dream Land (14m)
  • [9:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: LifeFactory Writer (6m), Bjorlyn Loon (13m), Ruud Lathrop (15m)
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: Wow. What's lagging the sim
  • [9:39] LifeFactory Writer: Hello!
  • [9:39] James Benedek: hi loki
  • [9:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.21-freebie: Detached.
  • [9:39] LifeFactory Writer: May I join you?
  • [9:39] Bjorlyn Loon: Life! Good to see you!
  • [9:40] Dale Innis: by all means!
  • [9:40] LifeFactory Writer: Likewise, Bjorlyn! Hello!
  • [9:40] James Benedek: peopel love spawning on my head XD
  • [9:40] LifeFactory Writer: Thank you, Dale.
  • [9:40] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [9:40] FWord Utorid: COMMENCE THE EVIL!
  • [9:40] Valiant Westland: Hey LFW!
  • [9:40] LifeFactory Writer: Still reazzing...
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: Half the sim is on "sim time, other"
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: huh
  • [9:40] LifeFactory Writer: Valiant....big smile :)
  • [9:40] Whump Linden: looks to see if "lag sim AO" is still attached.
  • [9:40] Tess Linden: There's been a long discussion on SLDev with regards to replacing group chat with XMPP
  • [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: has a rendering cost of... 1
  • [9:40] Dale Innis: all my fault :)
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [9:40] Teravus Ousley: It's an interesting chat.
  • [9:40] LifeFactory Writer: Ola, Hydra of the lewd and sexy tail!
  • [9:41] Tess Linden: SVC-419 is also a Jira that's been referenced on that topic
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: All well and good, tho, not deeply fiundamental
  • [9:41] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Group_IM_in_OGP
  • [9:41] Bjorlyn Loon: if hydra's tail was lewd and sexy, so was Davy Crockett's head.
  • [9:41] Tess Linden: right. The information is scattered because there is some confusion about what parts of the infrastructure we want to use XMPP for
  • [9:41] Valiant Westland: ROFL BL
  • [9:41] Tess Linden: or HTTP or any standard we want to use
  • [9:42] Dale Innis: Yeah ,I was really trying to pin down the requirements that OGP would have to meet for group IM.
  • [9:42] Tess Linden: Dale's wiki page specifically talks about Group IM
  • [9:42] FWord Utorid: jabber would be cool for interop. make it so.
  • [9:42] Dale Innis: But people went off on their own favorite platforms. :)
  • [9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: group IM is overloaded
  • [9:43] FWord Utorid: pushes the button that makes everyone start complaining at the same time, labeled 'semantics'
  • [9:43] Teravus Ousley: Well, the latest incarnation.. is the work on SLim has nothing to do with the future of OGP.. or that's what I read of it.
  • [9:43] Tess Linden: SLim addresses many of the use cases requested in SVC-419, but we're here to talk about OGP and how we will be embracing standards in an interoperable world
  • [9:43] Bjorlyn Loon: is there a url for that Tess? Dale's wiki page?
  • [9:43] Tess Linden: [2]
  • [9:43] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage
  • [9:43] Infinity Linden: says "ontology" to FWord
  • [9:43] Dale Innis: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Group_IM_in_OGP
  • [9:43] Dale Innis:  :)
  • [9:43] Dale Innis: ( "epistemology"! )
  • [9:43] Bjorlyn Loon: thanks
  • [9:44] Valiant Westland: Thank god for three monitors...
  • [9:44] FWord Utorid: counters Infinity's ontology with canon, and adds epesiotamy for flavor
  • [9:44] Tess Linden: Please take a look over at the slides here (courtesey of Zero)
  • [9:44] Dale Innis: there they are!
  • [9:44] Dale Innis: Slides!
  • [9:45] Teravus Ousley: haha, everything has a two way arrow :D
  • [9:45] Tess Linden: There are many paths of communication between the main components in the Open Grid
  • [9:45] FWord Utorid: hmm... why do the IMs have to go through the AD when they are person to person
  • [9:45] Tess Linden: the main components are:
  • [9:46] Infinity Linden: firewall traversal for one
  • [9:46] Tess Linden: 1. main virtual world (OGP compatible) viewer
  • [9:46] Infinity Linden: we don't implement a P2P overlay network
  • [9:46] Tess Linden: 2. Agent Domain
  • [9:46] Tess Linden: 3. Region Domain
  • [9:47] Tess Linden: using standard protocols would enable other IM Clients and IM servers to interoperate with Virtual Worlds Agent Domains
  • [9:47] Teravus Ousley: ++interop;
  • [9:47] Dale Innis: certainly agrees so far. :)
  • [9:47] Bartholomew Kleiber: yup
  • [9:48] Tess Linden: This slide represents communication channels standardized by OGP
  • [9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: works for simple text communication. I assume that invenotry is NOT part of this picure
  • [9:48] FWord Utorid: i still like the notion of handshaking over the AD to make pretty peer to peer connectivity
  • [9:48] Dale Innis: What's the "IM" box? Is that a standard IM server (IRC, say)?
  • [9:48] Tess Linden: Sai: Inventory *is* part of this picture
  • [9:49] Stirling Allen: agrees with Fword. Peer to peer hand shaking should be expressly supported.
  • [9:49] FWord Utorid: eep. inventory == controversy. abort! abort!
  • [9:49] Tess Linden: IM box is a not fully OGP compliant agent domain that has protocols that interoperate with AD's
  • [9:49] Hydra Shaftoe: So uh...say a really big corporation wanted to set up here, some sims on the main grid, some on a private internal firewalled grid, but wanted to use the same instant messenger to communicate with employee groups between both systems. possible?
  • [9:49] Zero Linden: er - the IM box is some external, IM system ---
  • [9:50] Zero Linden: not doing OGP
  • [9:50] Tess Linden: what Zero said
  • [9:50] FWord Utorid: if you want the gray IM void to have meaning, you need the THX sound, along with a voiceover from James Earl Jones, for emphasis.
  • [9:50] Bartholomew Kleiber: is a group domain wide or global in the presented scanario?
  • [9:50] Bjorlyn Loon: what Hydra just said, I know of a corporation actually doing that, wants a firewalled grid for their R&D with full control and security
  • [9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: I meant invenotry was not part of the IM box
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: How wide you want chat/im groups to go, is really important
  • [9:51] Hydra Shaftoe: kinda knows of one too :)
  • [9:51] Dale Innis: Put that requirement down on the Wiki page! If it's not already there.
  • [9:51] Bartholomew Kleiber: if you have global groups you need some central rep (again)
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: and. the place where inventory could sneak in, is that...
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: you can pass items across them
  • [9:51] FWord Utorid: ok, so groups have inventory transfer capability, and notices, and votes, among other things, not part of XMPP
  • [9:51] Dale Innis: suggests each group has a "home" domain.
  • [9:51] FWord Utorid: what about group voice chat? would that go over the same scheme to XMPP clients
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: ie, people drop files in chat all the time
  • [9:51] Dale Innis: central authorities --
  • [9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: A had this quaint little suggestion...
  • [9:52] Infinity Linden: the firewalled use case should be doable if you put your corporate IM server bhind the firewall and give your employees a way to get to to (vpn, etc.)
  • [9:52] Teravus Ousley: Improved Instant Message's Binary bucket?
  • [9:52] Zha Ewry: (just need a way to pull the handle (URL) of the items, but strill)
  • [9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Group_IM_in_OGP#Approaches
  • [9:52] Hydra Shaftoe: hm
  • [9:52] FWord Utorid: ok. everyone stop talking and read sai's page from yesterday
  • [9:52] Bartholomew Kleiber: there is an XEP to handle assets via XMPP
  • [9:53] Tess Linden: in this model, the agent domain would handle your chat messages (whether group or not)
  • [9:53] Stirling Allen: WHat about reframing this as "agent to agent communication" and think of what the D does in terms of supplying caps. The present IM system would then just be another URL that is sent to participants.
  • [9:53] Hydra Shaftoe: I'm not too keen on the technical mumbo jumbo. just curious if that's doable.
  • [9:53] FWord Utorid: ooh, this would allow people to possibly talk from Lively to SL!
  • [9:53] Tammy Nowotny: what was the uRL for Sai's page from yesterday?
  • [9:54] Bjorlyn Loon: its the one sai just gave, Tammy
  • [9:54] Tess Linden: one suggestion made was for using XMPP to communicate chat as the standard protocol for virtual worlds chat
  • [9:54] Tammy Nowotny: LOL. Thanks. even though I am aredhead I often have blonde moments.
  • [9:54] Tess Linden: this would mean that we would require XMPP as a dependency to OGP
  • [9:55] Bartholomew Kleiber: not if these are two different apps like in this chart
  • [9:55] Teravus Ousley: wouldn't XMPP serve as a serialization of data as well?
  • [9:55] Tess Linden: so along with requiring REST/HTTP event poll as the underlying transport, we would also require XMPP as well
  • [9:55] Stirling Allen: I am sure we could find a more verbose, baroque and ornate dependecy if we try.
  • [9:55] Infinity Linden: @Teravus... there are some parsign issues with generic XML over XMPP
  • [9:55] FWord Utorid: we should find a new protocol next year, so we can have more meetings.
  • [9:56] Tess Linden: Teravus: that's another question, if that is what we want, do we want to rely on XMPP for all communication to the viewer?
  • [9:56] Infinity Linden: it seems to work well for cases where you know what XML is coming over the pipe... less well if you're not sure
  • [9:56] LifeFactory Writer: hands lozenger to someone who needs it...
  • [9:56] Enus Linden: open mic zero
  • [9:56] FWord Utorid: zero didn't inhale
  • [9:56] Zha Ewry: and you kind of want the later cae
  • [9:56] Teravus Ousley: Well, we use application/xml+llsd ... application/XMPP?
  • [9:57] Zero Linden: no - Zero has had.... ONLY ONE CUP OF COFFEE!!!!!!
  • [9:57] Tess Linden: It's also been suggested that we use XMPP so that we can achieve the ability to connect external IM clients to Agent Domains
  • [9:57] Zero Linden: runs screaming toward the kitchen
  • [9:57] Zha Ewry: Knowing what is going to be sent.. not so useful, in a aweb world
  • [9:57] Goldie Katsu: Goldie Katsu hands Zero a glass of water
  • [9:57] LifeFactory Writer: hand coffee-flavored, caffinated lozenger to Zero
  • [9:57] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [9:57] Bjorlyn Loon: wonders if you need systems which create internal security, and then a broader open chat system without that security, or is the former the responsibility of the OG sim owner?
  • [9:57] Tess Linden: this use case does not *require* XMPP to be part of the OGP spec
  • [9:57] Zha Ewry: Whichi s a real plus
  • [9:58] Bartholomew Kleiber: yes
  • [9:58] Dale Innis: Depends what you mean by "internal", Bjorlyn :)
  • [9:58] Teravus Ousley: generally thinks if we can reduce dependencies, we should..
  • [9:58] Bjorlyn Loon: the folks that want 5 islands in SL, two in OG for security reasons, want the OG chat very secure within the corporation, Dale
  • [9:59] Tess Linden: This is a subtle difference in use case for XMPP, but needs to be pointed out
  • [9:59] Dale Innis: Bjorlyn: oh definitely
  • [9:59] Tess Linden: XMPP between client and server is much more widely adopted and implemented than XMPP between servers
  • [9:59] Stirling Allen: Many people have ot have logged communications by requirement. For example, people invovled in the sale of securities.
  • [9:59] Bjorlyn Loon: apologizes for interruption.
  • [10:00] Dale Innis: Interruptions r us :)
  • [10:00] Infinity Linden: are there still people selling securities?
  • [10:00] Tammy Nowotny: and others don't want thier conversations logged, perhaps even for similar legal reasons.
  • [10:00] Teravus Ousley: Agreed. With the Simulator's current model.. XMPP over BOSH may be the way to go.. that would mean that each Agent domain would do a poll of the IM server.
  • [10:00] Tess Linden: but in order to achieve interoperability between an external IM system and the agent domain, we would need a standard that's also for server to server
  • [10:00] Dale Innis: Stirling: does that impose any protocol requirements, or just impelmentation requirements?
  • [10:00] Zha Ewry: Both, I think, Dale
  • [10:00] Dale Innis: Jabber servers don't speak XMPP to each other?
  • [10:00] Bartholomew Kleiber: a proxy
  • [10:01] Hydra Shaftoe: Yeah what Bjorlyn said. I'm not too able to read all these acronyms, but a plain english answer would be appreciated. I want to know if a big corporation entering SL were to deploy an open grid solution for secure internal use, but also 3 public SL sims, would employeees on both grids be able to communicate with eachother and use the group IM tools?
  • [10:01] Tess Linden: Dale: I believe there is a proprietary component to what Jabber uses
  • [10:01] FWord Utorid: hydra, anything is possible if you spend a lot of money.
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: If you want secured, from public spaces, you're going to need to encripty, or keep the sim off the path, ot bnoth
  • [10:01] Hydra Shaftoe: I think someone answered me, but it looked like a string of greek letters
  • [10:01] Dale Innis: Hydra: that's exactly the kind of thing we're discussing.
  • [10:01] Tess Linden: Jingle maybe?
  • [10:02] Dale Innis: This is all still very much in progress. :)
  • [10:02] Hydra Shaftoe: yeah I just cant understand the technical jargon yet.
  • [10:02] Stirling Allen: It often imposes specific system requirements, in that empolyers often dictate which system is to be used. This argues for communications being a function where the domain, region or agent domain, allows negotiation of, but does not impose any particular requirement on. Example, allowing two agents to communicate over a VPN trading desk system which has its own internal means of establishing connections.
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: (plain text, which isn't point to point, but wants to be secure, needs at least tls, and proably real encyprtion
  • [10:02] FWord Utorid: if you spend 1.4 million dollars you can have what you want, and a bill for another 1.4 million dollars in support. Unless you hire Tess, she will probably hand type it all for you if you ask nicely.
  • [10:03] Dale Innis: I just meant that questions like "will X be able to do Y?" are ones we can't answer yet, because we don't know! :) But if they want/need to, it's good to write down as a requirement.
  • [10:03] Hydra Shaftoe: hehe
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: nods at Stirling
  • [10:03] Hydra Shaftoe: Ok that makes sense now
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: At some point, you're not going to want to do more than say 'Joan is here, talk to her" and hand off and endpoint
  • [10:03] Bartholomew Kleiber: right, VPN is one solution to deal with security over whatever protocol we use
  • [10:03] Tess Linden: hydra: the lines between IM & SL AD & XYZ AD are the pieces that need to be in place for communication between virtual worlds
  • [10:03] Tammy Nowotny: this might app,y to scripted objects which shout to each other
  • [10:03] Bartholomew Kleiber: comes with an overhead though
  • [10:03] FWord Utorid: ok. so the theory is use XMPP but the issue is that XMPP is not a 'networkable transport' from server to server?
  • [10:04] FWord Utorid: and whoa my viewer just went to plaid
  • [10:04] Hydra Shaftoe: Stylish
  • [10:04] Tess Linden: We need to identify the specific problems that we're trying to solve and then look at whether what XMPP is optimized for meets our needs, and determine how much they divert from the simplest possible solution
  • [10:05] Dale Innis: Tess++
  • [10:05] Zero Linden: I propose that the security issue is, probably orthogonal to XMPP -- XMPP offers about same level of security -- or less (!) -- as the direct translation of SLs current IM system into the OGP caps framework
  • [10:05] Tammy Nowotny: oh no, is that bug back, FWord... the one with the trippy 1970s textures appearing where tbey don't belong?
  • [10:05] Tess Linden: XMPP uses TLS & SASL
  • [10:05] FWord Utorid: tammy, i patched that one, but now everyone has extremely large plaid genitals
  • [10:05] Zero Linden: Both do client<->server TLS and not much beyond that
  • [10:06] Tammy Nowotny: luckily this is an M-rated sim :-)
  • [10:06] Dale Innis: Oh, while we're all here: Given that Rob or whoever was complaining about all the sldev talk, where should AWG / OGP / interop talk go?
  • [10:06] Dale Innis: Is gridnauts the right place?
  • [10:06] Bartholomew Kleiber: it says it uses a special port for server to server communication, 5269.
  • [10:06] FWord Utorid: ok, so there's a need to encapsulate all of the functionality that needs to be transferred over the diagram, and then to decide what sort of ascii to use for it
  • [10:06] Tess Linden: here are some other places that XMPP could be employed
  • [10:07] Whump Linden: Dale: we're working on a new list for that, will announce later this week.
  • [10:07] Dale Innis: ah good thanks
  • [10:07] Tess Linden: XMPP could be used for a variety of services that interoperate between agent domains
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: Could, but why would we go beyond http/https, unless we have to
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: XMPP is far less basic to the web model than XMPP
  • [10:08] Dale Innis: would love to write down a good list of services that we need before deciding what protocol to use to provide them. :)
  • [10:08] Tess Linden: +1 Zha
  • [10:09] Bartholomew Kleiber: you can do one and not omit the other
  • [10:09] Bartholomew Kleiber: dale: +1
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: I'm deeply unhappy at the thought of need ing to do XMPP on my cell phone to get at a service
  • [10:09] Hydra Shaftoe: sends email. Thanks for the answer folks :)
  • [10:09] Tess Linden: It's been argued that XMPP is a dynamic, push model which also implements presence
  • [10:09] Bartholomew Kleiber: no that would be SIP then
  • [10:09] Tess Linden: whereas HTTP/HTTPs is a static pull model
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: But, presence, is a tiny faction of what we move traffic for
  • [10:10] FWord Utorid: ok. let's have a list. 1. local spacial chat 2. group IM 3. private IM 3. spatial voice chat 4. group voice chat 5. group notices 6. group invites 7. group ejections 8. group votes 9. add yours <--- how many of these could be handled by an XMPP based mutation which allows server to server communication and handshaking?
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: Every bit we move on a non http pipe is
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: a) goign to be harder to get through someone's network
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: b) going to mean added likely hood someone else will move it on HTTP
  • [10:10] Tess Linden: Bartholomew: SIP is for session initiation and management
  • [10:10] Tammy Nowotny: email to the outside world is possibl number 9
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: and make it much, much harder to refactor the system for deploument on different models
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: for chat, fine
  • [10:11] Tess Linden: Barth: typically used in conjunction with RTP for large binary unstructured unreliable streaming
  • [10:11] FWord Utorid: afaik those are all of the major kinds of transports going on that could maneuver to this new paradigm.
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: for everythign else, the cost of not being a bog standard web service is maively high
  • [10:11] Tammy Nowotny: currency transfers is another #9
  • [10:11] Bartholomew Kleiber: then RTP was what I was refering, to - my apologies.
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: gestures at the large pile of failed http competitors
  • [10:11] Tammy Nowotny: is glad she doesn't have a sound gesture of the Beatle's Revolution #9 with the man saying "Number 9, Number 9."
  • [10:11] Rex Cronon: i don't think is possible to have voice chat for thousands of users concurently
  • [10:11] FWord Utorid: i don't know that currency transfer or email needs to be handled over an XMPP shield modulator
  • [10:12] Bartholomew Kleiber: you cant do text chat with thousands either - and you dont need to.
  • [10:12] FWord Utorid: rex, everything is possible if you hire the keebler elves.
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: /we do it all the time, in SL, Bart, with annoucnements
  • [10:12] Bartholomew Kleiber: thats one to many
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: "Event X, happenign at time Y" is very common use case,
  • [10:13] Dale Innis: Is the agenda item to make a list of all the things that we might use XMPP for?
  • [10:13] Rex Cronon: techinically yes it might be posssible, but u won't understand one word if everybody speacks at teh same time
  • [10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: blarg hope someone else has been here from start
  • [10:13] Bartholomew Kleiber: I was refering to Rex - he thinks many to one right now.
  • [10:13] Dale Innis: points at Zha :)
  • [10:14] Rex Cronon: i am thinking many to many
  • [10:14] Bartholomew Kleiber: even worse.
  • [10:14] FWord Utorid: ok. but... i tried to taxonimize the available options and find out what could and couldn't be covered by the TESSXMPP extensions
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: Well, the common use pattern, in lots of anoucnements, is infreuqent one to all
  • [10:14] Bartholomew Kleiber: but youll never have 1000 people writing at one time with 1000 listening.
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: but a diferent one, in each case
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: No, you don't
  • [10:14] Bartholomew Kleiber: its even hard to follow here :-).
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: You have 1000 people, any one of whom may say something in the next 10 minuttes, and 1,000 listening
  • [10:15] Dale Innis: Only because we never stick to a single subject :)
  • [10:15] Bartholomew Kleiber: LOL
  • [10:15] Bartholomew Kleiber: true
  • [10:15] FWord Utorid: ok, what version of the protocol will allow us to monitor a million monkeys at a million typewriters simultaneously
  • [10:15] Bartholomew Kleiber: zps it.
  • [10:15] Zero Linden: but... back to XMPP....
  • [10:15] Dale Innis: Zha's right, 1000+ listening and 1000+ potentially speaking.
  • [10:15] lyndell Aleixandre: i think my mouse wheel would be on fire from friction long before i can follow 1000 people in chat
  • [10:15] lyndell Aleixandre: and my index finger riddled with skid marks
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: if they all talk at once, sure, but, it's the 1 message from each every 10 minutes case which is killer
  • [10:16] FWord Utorid: lyndell, that's what robots are for.
  • [10:16] Zero Linden: Let's also be clear --- there is nothing special in the protocol of XMPP, or IRC, or SL's IM system, that enables these uses cases better than the others
  • [10:16] Zero Linden: they are all simply publish-subscribe systems
  • [10:16] FWord Utorid: robots will allow you to use your finger for more important things than the scroll wheel.
  • [10:16] Tess Linden: a popular requeste feature is the ability to mute group chat:
  • [10:16] Tammy Nowotny: I am reminded of that program they hasd on MTV way back in the l;ast centiury where they broadvcast a sample of chat room traffic in a window below videos, for some reason.... millions to millions text chat... not something we need here, though.
  • [10:16] Tess Linden: [3]
  • [10:16] Bartholomew Kleiber: except that its a protocaol specifically designed for these use casses.
  • [10:16] Bartholomew Kleiber: cases*
  • [10:16] Teravus Ousley: Well, we also have presence to be concerned about as far as resource usage.
  • [10:17] Teravus Ousley: but we'll save that :D
  • [10:17] Zero Linden: and, the ability for ejabberd, or ircd, or Jabber.com's offering to handle huge loads of messages shaped in whatever shape you particular use case needs, resides in their implementation in server code... NOT in the protocol
  • [10:17] Tess Linden: yeah -- we're going on a tangent
  • [10:17] Goldie Katsu: sighs at her poor panicking computer
  • [10:17] Dale Innis: a tangent? Us???
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: lets Zero focus us
  • [10:17] FWord Utorid: tess, i am just trying to arrive at a clear understanding, and to pass the savings on to you... you are proposing maneuvering a variety of these services to a special xmpp variant that has routing capacity, among them, the 1-9 list i pooped above
  • [10:18] Tess Linden: FWord: I dont think your list was a tangent
  • [10:18] Zero Linden: Actually - Barth - - I think to be clear, neither XMPP nor IRC nor SIP/SIMPLE has anything in the protocol that actually handles uses cases with the number 1000 in them at all
  • [10:18] Zero Linden: really -
  • [10:18] Tess Linden: but we should think about which use cases that list affect (which slide)
  • [10:18] Zero Linden: XMPP does not, infact have support for effective distribution of large subscribed groups
  • [10:19] Tess Linden: Zero's saying that the main affect is not server to server but rather client to server
  • [10:19] FWord Utorid: tess, ok. i presented the list as an opportunity to condense communication on which services might or might not be able to go over this particular new wire
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: Also, that 90% of the scaling is inside the servers
  • [10:19] Zero Linden: (some servers might implement such support, in proprietary extentions or methods, but they are not part of XMPP)
  • [10:19] Bartholomew Kleiber: true - Iwanted to point out that at some numbers the use case doesnt make sense
  • [10:20] Bartholomew Kleiber: lets say this sim could hold a 1000 people all attending the meeting - do we have to provide a protocaol that does this 1000 to 1000 conversation?
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: I don't think they don't make sense. Most are piulledf from actual usuage. They cause p[ain in interestign ways, but theya ren't exactly devoid of real life usage info
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: Well, just like in RL, if 1,000 people al yell
  • [10:20] Bartholomew Kleiber: has a protocol writing weakness :-/
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: you can't hear anything
  • [10:20] Bartholomew Kleiber: right
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: but...
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: at the same time
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: I can put 1,000 people in an auditoriam
  • [10:21] Tammy Nowotny: unless they are saying the same thing
  • [10:21] FWord Utorid: the one question of genuine interest to me is if the voice services can be / will be over this new service, given that the current implementation is proprietary
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: and they can all talk, in various ways
  • [10:21] Rex Cronon: that is what i am talking about. information overload
  • [10:21] Dale Innis: Not sure what you're saying there, Zero: surely there are IRC groups that have 1000 or more members in the channel at once?
  • [10:21] Bartholomew Kleiber: yes, but they are not writignn at the same time
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: Not with a persistent subscription model, tho dale
  • [10:21] FWord Utorid: yick, irc would be so icky for this scheme
  • [10:21] Stirling Allen: But not everything that goes over chat presently is meant for human consumption. For example, a great deal is meant to send messages to scripted objects.
  • [10:21] Bartholomew Kleiber: and if they would, the server would lag
  • [10:22] Bartholomew Kleiber: PLUS the conversation would go haywire
  • [10:22] Bartholomew Kleiber: thats why professional chat sytsems have built in brakes
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: The social scaling, is clearly problematic
  • [10:22] Stirling Allen: Therefore we can't assume that 1000 peers would not happen, simpley because humans could not follow it.
  • [10:22] Zero Linden: Dale - I'm saying that there is nothing in the IRC protocol that is especially supportive of that use case - so that by adopting that protocol we'll gain scaling for free
  • [10:22] FWord Utorid: whoa, are you saying you also intend to ship the non-'audible' communication over the same protocol?
  • [10:23] Dale Innis: Zero: ah! We *will* gain scaling for free if we use IRC?
  • [10:23] Zero Linden: FWord - I know of no voice signaling over XMPP
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: I'
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: I am not saying that"
  • [10:23] lyndell Aleixandre: what about an event queue for chat messages .. isnt that how the current implementation works?
  • [10:23] Bartholomew Kleiber: Stirling: no, but we dont have to make things more complicated just for a use case that doesnt make sense
  • [10:23] Stirling Allen: In theory one could use the FIC in RFC 5122
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: And. its worth pointing out that voice chat, requires a pretty messy, stream merging step
  • [10:23] Bartholomew Kleiber: lyndell: right , it will boil down to that
  • [10:23] Dale Innis: Bart: 1000 listeners and 1000 potential speakers is a very common and sensible usecase.
  • [10:24] FWord Utorid: zero, ok. i just wanted to make sure it was understood what services would be handled by a new fangled doodad server
  • [10:24] Bartholomew Kleiber: yes, thats why I wrote at the same time, Dale.
  • [10:24] Tess Linden: this is a good paper on how SIP+RTP and XMPP are used for voice and text chat: [4]
  • [10:24] Stirling Allen: [5] section 2.6
  • [10:24] Dale Innis: nods.
  • [10:24] Tammy Nowotny: and ideally in voice chat you need a way to filter out background noise,m breathing, snoring etc.
  • [10:24] lyndell Aleixandre: they used to haqve this kind of issue way back in the age of modems where the modem would flood the serial line .. so they implimented a "buffer"
  • [10:24] Bartholomew Kleiber: Tess: wow.
  • [10:24] FWord Utorid: FIFO is win.
  • [10:24] FWord Utorid: Tess, thanks.
  • [10:25] FWord Utorid: you have Tess-tosterone
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: adds to her stack of weekly reading
  • [10:25] lyndell Aleixandre: O_o
  • [10:25] FWord Utorid: ok, fine, lyndell, she has Tess-trogen.
  • [10:25] Dale Innis: would still suggest that we figure out what the services ARE first, then decide which should flow through the same channels, and what those channels ought to be. :)
  • [10:25] Tess Linden: that is a Jabber White paper, so probably biased
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: cuckles at Tess. "What, people do that?"
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: "For shame"
  • [10:26] Tammy Nowotny: LOL @ Zha's underwater conference table.
  • [10:26] FWord Utorid: I so hate when people are biased. They should be forced to only have one ass.
  • [10:26] Latha Serevi: Hey, gang, a mention of a related topic, mostly NOT for today -- my own focus is on how to manage group membership, and trust, rather than chat mechanisms. I hope we might be able to separate those issues cleanly, group-list-management versus communicating-given-a-list. My contention is that there are a couple of distinct kinds of gorups -- land management groups need high security, and have an impact on what can be done by whom; informal chat across grids needs high interoperability that would be positively harmed by having such high security.
  • [10:26] Latha Serevi: The other day I had mentioned that a secure-groups-management facility would be a potentially useful abstraction on top of which we could implement all of our OGP trust checks; but folks didn't seem to think I was nearly as brilliant as I thought I was. I wrote up a wiki page on it -- [6]
  • [10:26] Bartholomew Kleiber: Dale the 1000/1000 scenario is ok, but we could allow limit to the number of transactions.
  • [10:26] Bartholomew Kleiber: Like err now.
  • [10:27] Bartholomew Kleiber: scrolls back
  • [10:27] Dale Innis: Latha: I commented on your page. :)
  • [10:27] FWord Utorid: I want to be able to talk to everyone at the same time, whether they like it or not. Can we have that as a feature?
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: We haven't found a way to stop you yet, Fword ;-)
  • [10:27] Teravus Ousley: heh, if you have 1000 people talking to 1000 people.. you're going to be scrolling back a lot more often
  • [10:27] Dale Innis: Bart: an implementation can certainly impose a limit, but the underlying protocol should scale to any case that seems at all reasonable. imho.
  • [10:27] Rex Cronon: and everybody has the right to mute anybody:)
  • [10:28] FWord Utorid: Intergalactic anti-mute, ftw.
  • [10:28] Whump Linden: / still not seeing that 1000 to 1000 use case, thinking the 1 to 1000 use case is more likely
  • [10:28] Stirling Allen: "God shout."
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: Its not 1000 to 1000 al the time
  • [10:28] Tammy Nowotny: I went to a RL event in a space aboiut the size of 1 sim where Barack Obama spoke to 10,000 people... and a few hundred people were at unrelated events at a convention center across the street... that's the type of capacity we need in VWs someday.
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: but. 1000 to 1000 over several tens of minutes
  • [10:28] Bartholomew Kleiber: Dale: yes. But if you exchange a KISS solution with a 'better' one for a use case that you actually wont have?
  • [10:28] lyndell Aleixandre: agrees with whump
  • [10:28] Saijanai Kuhn: science friday group chat?
  • [10:28] Dale Innis: I'd like to encourage everyone to look at Sai's proposal for a first step, and comment. It would give us somehting to start coding and POCing to anway. :)
  • [10:28] Tess Linden: Latha's use case is more general than the messaging use case we had, it would also rely on server to server communication across domains
  • [10:28] Whump Linden: / so a subset of 1000 to 1000
  • [10:29] Whump Linden: / got it
  • [10:29] Dale Innis: Bart: depends just how unlikely "you actually won't have" is.
  • [10:29] Dale Innis: the world often surprises us :)
  • [10:29] Stirling Allen: I have a simple one. 1000 objects in a combat game, they communicate over chat, as they do presently. Instead with this system they would be members of a group, and communicate as a group message, thus reducing the amount of filtering doen by the general chat system. Presently use of negtaive channels s used for "chatting members are objects."
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: The problem with thinkig it isn't 1000x1000, is you can't ever guess which 10 will tak
  • [10:29] Stirling Allen: But 1000 peers is easily possible in that use case.
  • [10:30] Rex Cronon: even if u have 100 people talking at the same time is still hard to follow:(
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: sure, but even if you have an orderly flow of conversatoin, you still have 1,000 people, any of which may speak at any moment
  • [10:30] Stirling Allen: But we aren't taling about people, instead we are talking about agents. Agents are not people necesarily. Agents are potentially processes.
  • [10:30] Bartholomew Kleiber: you just throttle at some number to keep the load down.
  • [10:30] Tess Linden: does it help with scaling at all if a subset of the group is "listen-only"?
  • [10:30] Zero Linden: nope
  • [10:31] Bartholomew Kleiber: you can even make it configurable if you want.
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: You never know who wants to be listen only, and it costs you to change
  • [10:31] Tammy Nowotny: in my RL case, there were probably more than 1000 conversations goingon before and after the speech
  • [10:31] FWord Utorid: rex, the issue isn't whether or not the human mind can process the data, that's irrelevant. the issue is whether or not we can cram so much data over the network to make human's heads explode. if they can't filter it themselves, they *deserve* to melt.
  • [10:31] Bartholomew Kleiber: LOL
  • [10:31] Tammy Nowotny: good point FWord
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: looks for her cranial cooling fin
  • [10:31] Rex Cronon: voice takes bandwidth
  • [10:32] lyndell Aleixandre: ill put that im my hud
  • [10:32] Zero Linden: So -
  • [10:32] FWord Utorid: rex, formants actually don't take much in the way of bandwidth, if they are properly processed
  • [10:32] Zero Linden: typically, this kind of use case optimiztion is left for the servers to implement
  • [10:32] FWord Utorid: if you wanted an ultra-low bandwidth solution to transmitting audible vocal data with or without inflection, you could leverage formant synthesis.
  • [10:32] Rex Cronon: there is a limit of how much u can compress data
  • [10:32] Dale Innis: m/44 r
  • [10:33] FWord Utorid: rex, there is no limit to how much you can compress data.
  • [10:33] Bartholomew Kleiber: again, I only vote to keep it simple within reasonable numbers in the first run and to with standards (whatever that is) were apropriate.
  • [10:33] Bartholomew Kleiber: go*
  • [10:33] Dale Innis: ( unles you want to be able to expand it again )
  • [10:33] Zero Linden: mumbles something about the Sampling Theorum
  • [10:33] Rex Cronon: maybe if u use quantum computers:)
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: softly points at Zero's numbers from the very first AWG meeting. Scary numbers
  • [10:33] Tammy Nowotny: LOL.
  • [10:34] FWord Utorid: mumbles something about the fact that all of you are only one micron tall
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: One of the annoying challanmges we've set ourselves
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: is to scale out to insanely broad use
  • [10:34] Dale Innis: Yeah, for OGP we should keep in mind that "scary numbers" is one of our assumptions
  • [10:34] Bjorlyn Loon: zha, are those numbers on the wiki record?
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: We don't need to implement them all at once
  • [10:34] Bjorlyn Loon: for first awg meeting?
  • [10:34] Goldie Katsu: long term viability relies on building for big.
  • [10:34] Bartholomew Kleiber: scary numbers have to be handled apropriately not by brute force
  • [10:35] Saijanai Kuhn: Did y ou guys discuss the possibility of AD-specific vs RD-specific vs metaverse-wide groups?
  • [10:35] Dale Innis: exactly
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: At the protocol level, it's always easy
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: Its at the servers thsat you can't brute force it
  • [10:35] Dale Innis: Didn't get to anything that interesting, Sai :)
  • [10:35] Bartholomew Kleiber: mybe we can make configurable throttles in the servers.
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: [7]
  • [10:36] Dale Innis: has to rush off. Will read the rest in the transcript. Looking forward to a new list to talk on!
  • [10:36] FWord Utorid: zha, is that a re-run?
  • [10:36] Bjorlyn Loon: thanks Zha
  • [10:36] Bartholomew Kleiber: conference islands have more metal and higher numbers
  • [10:36] Bartholomew Kleiber: AX-9999 :-)
  • [10:36] Rex Cronon: bye dale
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: is which a re-run
  • [10:36] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
  • [10:36] Tammy Nowotny: cyas dale
  • [10:36] lyndell Aleixandre: like it or not .. whichever way you look at it .. throttles are going to be involved
  • [10:37] Stirling Allen: Not the protocol's problem.
  • [10:37] lyndell Aleixandre: nope
  • [10:37] Bartholomew Kleiber: throttles are not bad per se.
  • [10:37] Stirling Allen: TAPIH.
  • [10:37] FWord Utorid: we should use prospero's teleportation scheme to enhance bandwidth
  • [10:37] Bartholomew Kleiber: we have to make sure that the reasonably use cases are implementes carefully.
  • [10:37] lyndell Aleixandre: theyre nessesary in conjunction with a buffer so to speak
  • [10:38] Bartholomew Kleiber: and drop the extreme cases in the first run.
  • [10:38] lyndell Aleixandre: as for bandwidth ... well
  • [10:38] Zero Linden: needs to run..... looks forward to the almost certain recap (and perhaps some stakes in the ground) at his office hours later today
  • [10:38] Rex Cronon: bye zero
  • [10:38] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: nods at Zero
  • [10:38] FWord Utorid: lyndell, you don't need a throttle, you just need more buffers.
  • [10:38] Teravus Ousley: Take care
  • [10:38] FWord Utorid: later zero, drink more coffee
  • [10:38] Dream Land: bye zero.. :)
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: Bart, I'd turn it around
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: You need to make sure you have the protocl right for the scary number first
  • [10:38] lyndell Aleixandre: theres only so many messages you can process FW
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: and then implement if so that you can build a server which hndles less
  • [10:38] Tammy Nowotny: needs more coffee herself
  • [10:38] FWord Utorid: lyndell, i can process all of the messages.
  • [10:39] lyndell Aleixandre: unless you want an entire core dedicated to processing and parsing the chat protocol
  • [10:39] FWord Utorid: no, just a router
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: well, in 10 years, how many cores will I have?
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: I'll happily dedicate one to that...
  • [10:39] Bartholomew Kleiber: Zha, good point. But there will be always a higher number.
  • [10:39] Tess Linden: I'm off to get some more coffee too
  • [10:39] Bartholomew Kleiber: Like 640 Kbyte.
  • [10:39] Saijanai Kuhn: with room temp swuperconducters? cores are irrelevant. How many QBits...
  • [10:39] Stirling Allen: One programmer's extreme case is another programmer's action item.
  • [10:39] FWord Utorid: the more processors you get, the more people will talk
  • [10:39] Tess Linden: see ya next time!
  • [10:40] Tammy Nowotny: see you Tess
  • [10:40] Rex Cronon: bye tess
  • [10:40] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye
  • [10:40] Whump Linden: / thanks Tess!
  • [10:40] Tammy Nowotny: does LL give their employess good cocffee?
  • [10:40] lyndell Aleixandre: for lthat scary number .. i think the bigger issue is bandwidth .. what do you think?
  • [10:40] Stirling Allen: cya
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: So, as a stake in the ground...
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: The prorocl. needs to handle insanely large
  • [10:40] FWord Utorid: i think you can compress all of human communication into a very small amount of data
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: I'm happy if we allow a server to limit it's numbers
  • [10:40] Bjorlyn Loon: thank you, very informative!
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: Indeed
  • [10:40] Rex Cronon: prove it fword
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: Thayt becomes a good requirement, ways to manage that
  • [10:40] Valiant Westland: Facinating discussion.... Have a good day everyone...
  • [10:41] Zha Ewry: Linden's coffee, is pretty good
  • [10:41] FWord Utorid: rex, it's pretty simple, if you spend time thinking about how a universal translator would work
  • [10:41] Rex Cronon: bye valiant
  • [10:41] Zha Ewry: Zero brews a mean pot ;-)
  • [10:41] FWord Utorid: essentially, people are really only communicating checksums of previously incarnated communication
  • [10:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Bjorlyn has a real-world usecase for science friday group IM
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: That backchannel gets NOISY
  • [10:42] Whump Linden: How many participants?
  • [10:42] Saijanai Kuhn: eh, she's thinking in terms of the *listener* base, not just the SL base
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: we also had a full 80 a Kelly Executive yesterday, with no problems on the sim
  • [10:42] FWord Utorid: there are only a small number of fundamentally unique messages that people express in traditional forms of mass hysteria.
  • [10:42] Bjorlyn Loon: 1.25 million listeners
  • [10:42] Bjorlyn Loon: another couple hundred thousand in podcast downloads
  • [10:43] Tammy Nowotny: when I tell people about Second Life, they often say. "like on Science Friday!" Bjorlyn. (more ofetn than they mention "The Office," actually... but maybe that's because I hang out with NPR listeners.)
  • [10:43] FWord Utorid: most of the things people say are about proving how big their weiner is.
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: OK.
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: So..Comments on the wiki pages
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: Anyone have agenda items for next week?
  • [10:44] Bartholomew Kleiber: maybe Lathas page?
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: (and if you decidce you do, later on this week, IM or e-mail 'em to me, my gmail is on my proifile)
  • [10:44] lyndell Aleixandre: sure .. why dont we talk about how currency is going to be implimented lol
  • [10:44] Tammy Nowotny: okeis Zha!
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: Ahm
  • [10:44] FWord Utorid: no. you guys are supposed to do all of the work, I just get the paycheck.
  • [10:44] Teravus Ousley: lyndell: that might be a topic for which linden's office hours
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: Lyndell, you should take a peek at the transcipts of which's office hours
  • [10:44] Tammy Nowotny: very importnat Lyndell
  • [10:45] Whump Linden: / kk, see you all around
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: Which has been looking at the requirements for that
  • [10:45] FWord Utorid: lyndell, they didn't even decide today what they were going to do
  • [10:45] Tammy Nowotny: though thata huge issue
  • [10:45] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
  • [10:45] Rex Cronon: afk
  • [10:45] lyndell Aleixandre: sorry been away for a while havnt followed
  • [10:45] lyndell Aleixandre: BzzZZzzz!... Bzzz!
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: Inch at a time, a big chunk of this is socilaizing the basic points, and gettign evbryone on the same page
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: Building shared head space
  • [10:45] FWord Utorid: well, we need a protocol that is capable of putting everyone on the same page.
  • [10:46] Cane Janick: lol
  • [10:46] Saijanai Kuhn: well, we have such a protocol. It just doesn't scale
  • [10:46] Tammy Nowotny: especially since some opensim hosts will want their curerncy to be fungible with other currencies... some will want it just to be spacebucks
  • [10:46] FWord Utorid: lol
  • [10:46] FWord Utorid: everyone can be on the same page, just not at once
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: [8]
  • [10:46] Bartholomew Kleiber: we will need some currency exchange anyhow at some point. (my secret business model)
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:47] FWord Utorid: no, it has to be like the mirror in the phantom zone where Zod was imprisoned by Jor-El
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: I'm not at all convinced that VW micorpatment is uniquely different tho
  • [10:47] lyndell Aleixandre: theres currency exchanges now
  • [10:47] Saijanai Kuhn: you're thinkng OpenCroquet Fw0rd
  • [10:47] FWord Utorid: sai, no, i was thinking of Superman II and III
  • [10:47] lyndell Aleixandre: croquet .. thats something i like :D
  • [10:47] FWord Utorid: well, not superman III, that sucked.
  • [10:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol
  • [10:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: ok, folks, gotta go. . I must cause confusion somewhere else now.
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: Okies.
  • [10:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye all
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: I'm going to call this a wrap
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: see many of you at Zero's office hours
  • [10:48] Tammy Nowotny: TYVM Zha
  • [10:48] Bjorlyn Loon: bye all and thanks!
  • [10:48] FWord Utorid: I am going to call it kinky
  • [10:48] Tammy Nowotny: when are those... although I can look that info up?
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: debates geting Fword a gag and Cuffs
  • [10:48] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone have a complete transcript? Icarshed halfway through
  • [10:48] Goldie Katsu: thanks
  • [10:48] FWord Utorid: zha, get me a sandwich instead
  • [10:49] Bartholomew Kleiber: Sai: I send it to you.
  • [10:49] Saijanai Kuhn: great thanks