AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27

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  • [9:34] Zha Ewry: Urp?
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: Wow. Wonky script lag
  • [9:35] Asterion Coen: saij with all those mondialisation business, im sure a day we will be abble to export to you some of our cold :)
  • [9:35] Asterion Coen: and we will buy back some warm ones
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: Morning all
  • [9:35] Imaze Rhiano: -20 cold... -30 freezing... -40 cold as in hell...
  • [9:35] Morgaine Dinova: No lag, must be ropey IBM hardware ;-)
  • [9:35] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
  • [9:36] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Dahlia
  • [9:36] Imaze Rhiano: hi Dahlia
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: Sanity preserving tip for everyone... The danger of saying "Yeah, we could do that"
  • [9:36] Zha Ewry: is that people will then make you do that
  • [9:36] Imaze Rhiano: how is idealist viewer?
  • [9:36] Asterion Coen: imaze im realy realy happy (with a big H) to havent born in finland or arround :)
  • [9:36] Dahlia Trimble: hoavent worked on it much lately
  • [9:36] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Rex
  • [9:36] Anamolie Poitier: hi all
  • [9:37] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [9:37] Asterion Coen: i would prefere hawaii temperature, more adequate about my body :)
  • [9:37] Imaze Rhiano: life is too easy there - makes people lazy
  • [9:38] Imaze Rhiano: what we have in agenda?
  • [9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: what Hawaii needs is a good old fashioned mini-iceage
  • [9:38] BlueWall Slade: they can have ours, it they want
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: Not a ton of stuff. I've been snagged for the past 10 days helping show people how to use SL to do reasl work
  • [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's been threaten^H^H^H^H^H^H^H promising an agenda
  • [9:39] Dahlia Trimble: SL™ does real work?
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [9:39] Morgaine Dinova: AD?
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: Well, we're going to do a part of a divisional kick off in SL
  • [9:40] Saijanai Kuhn: I've gotten paid RL money to show people how to use it
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: which means getting 12 sites and 20 some odd people properly set up to do high quality voice in SL
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: On the AD Front....
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: I have the thin aehterial cord stretched from end to end.. I can get logged on and handle a place avatar onto an OGP region
  • [9:41] Asterion Coen: zha oh, and how r the business in SL actualy ? :) mine r like ... falling down!
  • [9:41] Asterion Coen: hopefully i got some projects
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: and crash explicably on TP
  • [9:42] Zha Ewry: (as in I know why it crashes)
  • [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: that's interesting
  • [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: ah EXplicably not INex...
  • [9:42] Dahlia Trimble: viewer crashes?
  • [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: AD I'm guessing
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: Actually, at the moment, I'm making net's web requester code throw exceptions
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: Which has to do with what happens when you throw it an oddly enough mal-formed URL to use
  • [9:43] Imaze Rhiano: dot.NET?
  • [9:43] Zha Ewry: aye
  • [9:44] Imaze Rhiano: if you want - I can help you to debug it...
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: So.. I do have pretty much all the flows sorted out, and parsed and passed correctly in LLDL
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: I need to do a bunch of bookeeping code, so I can properly keep track fo the current state of people as they move about, and then look at simple persistence
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: I'm also having the usual gentle discussions with our peolpe who manage such things about how and when we will release code
  • [9:45] Asterion Coen:  :)
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: its coded as a standalong OpenSIm based service
  • [9:45] Imaze Rhiano: ooo... you are going to patent everything :P
  • [9:45] Saijanai Kuhn: the joys of OSS in a FOrtune 100 company
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: Zero mods to base code
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: There is not exactly anything to patent
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: But... I have to sort of prove that to the powers that be
  • [9:46] Imaze Rhiano: ya... sorry - you have already patented them :P
  • [9:46] Morgaine Dinova: That's never stopped anyone in the US :P
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: ponders
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: "A method and apparatus for transatlantic legal slagging based on the presumption that all things American are over litigated"
  • [9:47] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: Claim 1. The means of constructing a dismisive comlpaint about a facet of the American legal system
  • [9:48] Zha Ewry: Claim 2. The means of claim 1 where the complaint is about coffee
  • [9:48] Zha Ewry: Claim 2. The means of claim 1, where the complaint is about IPR
  • [9:48] Imaze Rhiano:  :P
  • [9:48] Zha Ewry: But.. i digress
  • [9:48] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: My aim is to get the code stable without persistence, and get it up on gridforge
  • [9:49] Asterion Coen: i didnt know zha has some humouristic skills =)
  • [9:49] Morgaine Dinova: She doesn't.
  • [9:49] Morgaine Dinova: (Actually it was hilarious :P)
  • [9:49] Asterion Coen: lol
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: I don't have a BS, I actually have a BA from a proper liberal arts school which believed in teaching things like writing and history and humor
  • [9:50] Morgaine Dinova: More importantly, BA students hold more parties
  • [9:50] Asterion Coen: sadly u converted all of them with some inintelligble maths equations :)
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: So.. while I'm sort of heads down coding and herding cats
  • [9:51] Imaze Rhiano: ooooooookaaaaaayyyy... so code is not yet ready for publish - what we are going to ask from Zero tonight?
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: we have an nice opprotinity to think about what we might add to the current OGP AD
  • [9:51] Goldie Katsu: hmmm seems I missed the important part coming in late.
  • [9:51] Morgaine Dinova: Zha ... we need that AD. Can't you release something that half works?
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: (and matching OpenSim code) to do things which aren't in plan yet
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: As soon as I propritate lawyers, and the people who pay me to do stuff Morgaine
  • [9:52] BlueWall Slade: half works? we already have SL
  • [9:52] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [9:52] Imaze Rhiano: sl... working 1/4 :P
  • [9:52] Asterion Coen: 1/4 in the good days
  • [9:52] Zha Ewry: Some defensive coding would do the world a world of good
  • [9:52] Morgaine Dinova: I tried to pattern-match "propritate", but nothing came to mind.
  • [9:52] Goldie Katsu: .25 * .5 = .125
  • [9:53] Goldie Katsu: hmmm that doesn't look like the right direction
  • [9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Ah ... "execute"?
  • [9:54] Imaze Rhiano: what should be done after AD is published?
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: Go down on bended knee and offer up small stacks of electronic paper before the gods of corporate open source particpation
  • [9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Ew
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: Which seriously, shouldn't take *too* long
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: So.. what I'm thinking is two fold
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: If we want to do addiotnal stuff in an AD
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: we need matching bits in the OGP module in OpenSIm (not hard)
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: but for a bunch of stuff, changes to the client as well
  • [9:56] Zha Ewry: One thing, which comes to mind, is blending the hypergrid code with an open AD
  • [9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: The rock bottom basics is trivial Morgaine, its getting past assuming no errors that starts to get hard
  • [9:57] Zha Ewry: actually, the AD side, is pretty simple, all the way through
  • [9:57] Dahlia Trimble: what happened to Tao's AD?
  • [9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao got sidetraciked with work
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: As far as I can tell, Zero, and Tess, did a pretty good job of keeping it clean
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: Saij?
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: Did the pygop stuff get un-ZCA'd?
  • [9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: well, its straightforward from what I can tell, but I'm new to web programming, so error handling is somewhat more complext for me
  • [9:58] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, just de-ZCA-ed the wx example code last night
  • [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: the only ZCA bit left is the testrunner framework
  • [9:59] Saijanai Kuhn: but you don't need to use that to code the client
  • [9:59] Zha Ewry: ZCA may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but actualyly getting it integrated into my development enviornemnt was spectactually not good
  • [10:00] Goldie Katsu: ZCA
  • [10:00] Goldie Katsu: ZCA's?
  • [10:00] Zha Ewry: Tao's python package and deployment scheme
  • [10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: Zope COmpenent Architecture. Python DB for swapping out libraries during runtime
  • [10:00] Goldie Katsu: ahh
  • [10:00] Saijanai Kuhn: a bit of overkill when you only have one library ATM
  • [10:00] Zha Ewry: I'm not a deep pythonista to begin with
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: and this stuff does insanely clever and obscure python stuff
  • [10:01] Saijanai Kuhn: 3.0 will likely do everythign we need from ZCA anyway
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: I'm much more of a fan of "utterly boring and easily understood by me"
  • [10:01] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [10:02] Rex Cronon: .
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: So, the AD code I've done, is very basic C#, and simply builds on the basic OpenSim servcie framework
  • [10:02] Saijanai Kuhn: But Tao's a dedicated ZCA fan and when Enus took it out, he kinda wandered off
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: Well, mroe to the point, Sija, ZCA is his baby, is it not?
  • [10:03] Saijanai Kuhn: he uses it, but don't think he wrote the module
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: ah.
  • [10:04] Morgaine Dinova: Nothing stopping him continuing to use his ZCA version. Since ZCA is (supposedly) very powerful, he should be able to stay way ahead of the non-ZCA PyOGP.
  • [10:04] Dahlia Trimble: python seems so clanish sometimes
  • [10:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Its like NeXT but x-platform
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: So... I'm open to two inputs
  • [10:05] Morgaine Dinova: All language people are clannish. That's why I'm not having anything to do with one-language systems, and make everything language agnostic --- like the plugins I'm doing for Imprudence.
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: What extensions do we want to look at
  • [10:06] Morgaine Dinova: It Balkanizes the community, really bad
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: And I do think a hypergird/OGP mashup is interesting
  • [10:06] Asterion Coen: (next, like nextstep on nextcube/station)?)
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: and. are there things we want to do which would include client side changes..
  • [10:06] Saijanai Kuhn: Aterion yeah. FOr a REAL NeXTer, Cocoa isn't true NeXT
  • [10:07] Imaze Rhiano: what kind extension we are talking about?
  • [10:07] Dahlia Trimble: hypergrid is diva's baby so yo may want to get in touch with her
  • [10:07] Saijanai Kuhn: no DIsplay Postscript
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:07] Asterion Coen: saij hehe, i got a nextstation with it's original nextstep :) with all the floopy disks :)
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: Its on my list in my negative amounts of spare time
  • [10:07] Asterion Coen: ok, i never use it
  • [10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: if I manage to get the plugins working in Imprudence (many months work), then I'll be looking to adding OGP handling next, mostly factored out into plugins of course.
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: And, Morgaine, I totallya gree on the language independent bit
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: The whole point of doing REST and web servcies
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: is because it beocmes a lingua franca
  • [10:08] Morgaine Dinova: And I'll write it in Cobol or APL just to annoy modern language advocates ;-)
  • [10:08] BlueWall Slade: Morgaine, how hard would it be to put the financial transactions in CAPS?
  • [10:08] Asterion Coen: in cobol lol
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: Mind you more like a Linga Lindenica give that its based on LLDL
  • [10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: BlueWall, you should talk to Which about that
  • [10:09] Asterion Coen: (wanna see SL on an as400)
  • [10:09] Morgaine Dinova: We don't have a framework for L$ transactions in caps yet
  • [10:09] Imaze Rhiano: sigh... only language what you need to know is assembler - so let's end this dicussion - What kind extensions we are talking about?
  • [10:09] Dahlia Trimble: coding event queue messages gave me a sour reminder of cobol :/
  • [10:09] BlueWall Slade: I know
  • [10:09] BlueWall Slade: lol, Dashlia
  • [10:09] BlueWall Slade: s/s//
  • [10:10] Asterion Coen: imaze hopeflly there is no more asm68000 :)
  • [10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: better than ix86
  • [10:10] Morgaine Dinova: Well I've written Hello World in Cobol, so I'm an expert ;-)
  • [10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: took 3 semesters from a student of Admiral Hopper
  • [10:10] Asterion Coen: hehe "hello world" :)
  • [10:11] Goldie Katsu: I supported COBOL
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: I'd kind of like a LLDL deseralizer in ada, myself ;-)
  • [10:11] Asterion Coen: dunno why, all the books about language gegin with to display that sentence :)
  • [10:11] Asterion Coen: begin*
  • [10:11] Saijanai Kuhn: harkens back to the original c I think, or maybe B
  • [10:11] Imaze Rhiano: extensions?
  • [10:11] Morgaine Dinova: Ada's a fine language. I used to use it as a PDL when teaching SoftEng, did the job, not obscure.
  • [10:11] Dahlia Trimble: k&r language book clones
  • [10:12] Asterion Coen: i dunno what the use, today, about asm, as no one coders, sorry developpers, doesnt seem to want to optimize anything :)
  • [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: good compiler can beat a mediocre assembly language coder anyway
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: So...
  • [10:12] Asterion Coen: saij right
  • [10:13] Saijanai Kuhn: being mediocre in several languages
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: I'm looking for specific proposals which might be of interest, ideally with enough detail that we can takl about them
  • [10:13] Dahlia Trimble: last time i did any assembly language was some MMX hacks embedded in c
  • [10:13] Asterion Coen: especialy since pentium cpu
  • [10:13] Morgaine Dinova: So is the AD implemented as a REST service?
  • [10:13] Goldie Katsu: yay K&R
  • [10:13] Dahlia Trimble: about 10 years ago
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: The AD is a set of REST services
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: Well, REST services and Caps
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: I'm still lookign for a way to say "REST services and CAPs" which doesn't make me al ittle green around the gils
  • [10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: Slightly out of date, but givevs basic diagrams of what OGP does right now
  • [10:14] Saijanai Kuhn: [1]
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: But basically, you expose a set of \agent\(Cap gorp)\resourceX
  • [10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Try CAP-enabled REST services ... still pukey?
  • [10:14] Asterion Coen: what about basic "print" command to print it not in green ? :)
  • [10:15] Asterion Coen: <- hides
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: Well, part of the issue, Morgaine, is that Caps, are on the edge of bending REST out of normal shape
  • [10:16] Morgaine Dinova: Because the URI is no longer stateless at the server end?
  • [10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: must go A f k for a bit. Recording stil on
  • [10:16] Asterion Coen: have fun saij
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:16] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Sai
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: That bit of encoded state (tho shallow, in some sense)
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: kind of mkes it hard to say "caps are RESTful"
  • [10:17] Imaze Rhiano: so... to Hypergrid - AD would remove need of separate foreign and local agents?
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: I think it woudl formalize it more cleanly
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: (hyper grid and AD)
  • [10:18] Morgaine Dinova: No, can have any number of ADs, so it formalizes the concept of "foreign" as meaning simply "another". Symmetric, not SL-centric
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: What we really want, is for the Avatar to carry alongpointers back to one or more ADs
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: Or rather
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: one or more Iventory and asset servers
  • [10:18] Asterion Coen: emergency TP, i brb
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: and not make it unusual to use them
  • [10:19] Imaze Rhiano: hypergrid is definately way to go ...
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: No reason the teleports can't include some of those refs
  • [10:19] Morgaine Dinova: The avatar? Surely the agent. The avatar is provided by whichever world you';re in.
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: Well
  • [10:20] Imaze Rhiano: I would start looking immediately how to get ad server working with hypergrid
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: really, the "Regoin held avatar proxy"
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: I tend to think the Agent(s) live in agent domains
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: and project a presence onto regions
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: Which tends to feel like a avatar_proxy
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: or a agent_proxy
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: depending on one's perspective
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: its the bit of state in the sim which connects me back to the Agent and to the client
  • [10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: what does our model say (if anything) about a given agent having an active presence in more than one world simulataneously, where those worlds are actually interopping too?
  • [10:21] Morgaine Dinova: (an aside)
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: I would argue, it should not need to say *too* much with one exceptino
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: and that exception is a notion of "presence"
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: right now, presence is "Morgaine is on ThorneBridgeTown at 150,120,24:"
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: if you allow a multiplly active exietsnce
  • [10:23] Asterion Coen: hi again !
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: it becoems "Morgain is at (TBT x,y,z; Sim67 x1,y1,z1, weblin-page [2] sues chips firm for hot fish and chips#Ouch!)
  • [10:24] Rex Cronon: wb
  • [10:24] Morgaine Dinova: Cool. So you're saying that the model doesn't try to impose any specific policy about presence where it's not necessary. Ie. only where it would cause a clash, such as multiple X@loc.
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: it seems to me, to be a very bad idea to impose singletons except by policy
  • [10:24] Asterion Coen: thx
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: Its fine with me if an AD has a policy which says
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: "I only allow my agents to rez in one place"
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: Why bake that into the protocol?
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: Mind you, I am not a huge fan of people being in multple places at once, but I'm not goign to stop them
  • [10:25] Dahlia Trimble: has rl planned today... bye all :)
  • [10:25] Imaze Rhiano: bye
  • [10:26] Rex Cronon: bye dahlia
  • [10:26] Asterion Coen: bye dahl :=)
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: waves By Dah...
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: and notices Dahlia has vanished
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: sigh
  • [10:26] Imaze Rhiano: teleporting is too quick when it works..,.
  • [10:27] Asterion Coen: (when it works fine)
  • [10:27] Morgaine Dinova: We can't be in multiple places simultaneously in RL, but that's one of the advantages of VWs, we can. So a bar would be bad.
  • [10:27] Asterion Coen: i use to confirm 2 time a TP, once b4 i accept it, the secojnd one after i tp
  • [10:28] Asterion Coen: what do u mean by "in multiple place simultaneously" ?
  • [10:28] Asterion Coen: i mean, on SL
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: Well, on Sl, you can only do it with alts
  • [10:29] Asterion Coen: yes, that's what i figured out :)
  • [10:29] Asterion Coen: so my ask
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: But there is no good reason, not to be able to rez too copies of your ave at the same time, in terms of many things
  • [10:29] Asterion Coen: i dont see the interrest to be on several places at the same time
  • [10:29] Asterion Coen: (excepted maybe for meetings)
  • [10:29] Imaze Rhiano: someday we don't have AD servers anymore - AD information is stored to user's computer
  • [10:30] Morgaine Dinova: Alts are different to multiple presences, they have separate history, where all events in the life of a multi-presence av are multiplexed into the single history.
  • [10:30] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, Imaze
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: That model only works if your local machine is able to web serve, in geenral, imaze
  • [10:31] Morgaine Dinova: Nah Zha, don't need incoming TCP connections to be authoritative
  • [10:31] Morgaine Dinova: That's just an artifact of common practice.
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: No, but you need a way for other people to discover your prescne
  • [10:31] Imaze Rhiano: that is why we have RD?
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: Region Domain?
  • [10:32] Imaze Rhiano: ya
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: That doesn't tell you which region you are in
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: or more importantly
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: doesn't tell other people
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: A lot of stuff can migrate off towars user machines
  • [10:32] Morgaine Dinova: Just do something equivalent to an ARP publish.
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: then the holder of the published record
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: effectively becomes the defintive source
  • [10:33] Imaze Rhiano: facebook of the future
  • [10:33] Morgaine Dinova: You tell the AD that it's to pretend that it holds the authority, but to pass down requests to you.
  • [10:33] Morgaine Dinova: Becomes your proxy
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: shrugs
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: whether its holding it
  • [10:33] Morgaine Dinova: The current model is too provider-centric.
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: or proxying it
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: it looks the same to the other services
  • [10:34] Morgaine Dinova: yeah
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: The details of where it gets the data is it's own buiness
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: not external
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: it can ask you
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: store it in my sock drawer
  • [10:34] Imaze Rhiano: anyway... I think that we should start looking how to integrate AD to hypergrid next...
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: or keep it on a Z/OS box in DB/2
  • [10:34] Morgaine Dinova: We'll have to get that functionality into ADs.
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: From the other components in the world, the AD is charazterized by the interfaces it exposes, not how it services them
  • [10:35] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: goes hard core on the "I don't ever care to look inside boxes" view
  • [10:35] Morgaine Dinova: It'll take some fighting to get LL to accept not holding the authoritative record though.
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: On the protocol level?
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: if we do it right, they won't know
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: the hard bit
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: will be will they accept another AD
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: as a trusted partner input
  • [10:36] Morgaine Dinova: If they don't then they've been trying to sell us a bridge all this time.
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: which, again, is mostlly policy, not protocol
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: Well, I look at it this way
  • [10:37] Zha Ewry: My interest it getting a good suite of protocols
  • [10:37] Zha Ewry: which allows people to make good, or bad policy choices
  • [10:37] Zha Ewry: I'll work with people who make good ones
  • [10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Good approach.
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: One of the basic design points I'm coming to, is to make very sure the protocols *never* do policy when they don't have to
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: Let them carry the informatoin to allow choices to be made
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: and let the endpoints apply policy
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: Which, btw, I think echos the web pretty well
  • [10:38] Asterion Coen: normal :)
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: In general, http is pretty seperate from the access controls which a web server implements
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: That's a very good thing
  • [10:40] Asterion Coen: the very bad one is that an admin have to add an armada of differents modules to do rules, and other sorts
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: That is, tho, outside of the http spec
  • [10:40] Asterion Coen: that's how with 1 server (needed to work) you got a wall room full of materials
  • [10:41] Asterion Coen: whole*
  • [10:41] Imaze Rhiano: oooookay... so ... hypergrid next?
  • [10:41] Zha Ewry: Ah, or one big Z box, runing a huge pile of virtulized linux partitions
  • [10:41] Asterion Coen: a very big one then hehe
  • [10:42] Asterion Coen: (witch i hope is not bugged neither) :)
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: Well, I need t hunt Diva down and have a chat
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: and then, we should see if we can have her show here, or meet on an OpenSim, to discuss some of this
  • [10:43] Asterion Coen: (are opensim stable enough?) :)
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: The other thing which the AD I'm doing it going to get is e pairwise X509 support
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: and.. yes, they are
  • [10:43] Morgaine Dinova: They're stable enough for chatting sure
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: For basic stuff, OpenSims can be pretty stable
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: Actually, for under about 20 concurrent
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: and not too mch building
  • [10:44] Asterion Coen: like we come to assist the meeting with our best suits and by some misteries become nude as a worm right in the meeting !
  • [10:44] Asterion Coen: (especialy when that's your turn to talk)
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: chuckles osftly
  • [10:44] Imaze Rhiano: sounds fun
  • [10:44] Morgaine Dinova: Hey, that's not a bad strategy for ensuring that the speaker hold the attention ;-)
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: As long as Saij isn't speaking
  • [10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Aw
  • [10:45] Morgaine Dinova: www
  • [10:45] Goldie Katsu: I thought you were supposed to imagine everyone else nude.
  • [10:45] Asterion Coen: lol
  • [10:45] Asterion Coen: sometime better isnot
  • [10:45] Morgaine Dinova: You mean your client actually shows people with their clothes on? How retro
  • [10:46] Asterion Coen: LOL
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: well, I tend to wear system texctures
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: so ctrl-alt-shift-9 doesn't mske me totally nakies
  • [10:46] Asterion Coen:  :)
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: /Does wonders to my framerate, tho
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: I have seen at least one spin of the client, which takes off layers on aves
  • [10:47] Asterion Coen: as long as it's not linden bear system textures, that's ok :)
  • [10:48] Asterion Coen: never tried the ctrl+alt+shift+9
  • [10:48] Imaze Rhiano: what we want to ask from Zero tonight?
  • [10:48] Goldie Katsu: ah the bear necessities
  • [10:48] Asterion Coen: depending of the result, i wuill see if i wont wear a kilt
  • [10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Well if TheBlack Box is present, no doubt we'll corner Zero into talking about hierarchical object support in OGP, just to be sure he doesn't sideline it.
  • [10:49] Asterion Coen: hehe
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: I have to say its ctrl-alt-shift 4 which tlls you how much ve's kill framerte
  • [10:49] Imaze Rhiano: " hierarchical object support"?
  • [10:50] Morgaine Dinova: Don't exist currently, Imaze
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: Link sets done right?
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: (which is how I tend to think of nexted object)
  • [10:50] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, like a linkset at each level of a node tree
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: *nested
  • [10:51] Asterion Coen: even fingers ?
  • [10:51] Morgaine Dinova: Basically a link set with additional links, one parent and N child links.
  • [10:52] Asterion Coen: independant fingers can be fine when u r in front of some anoying folks !
  • [10:53] Imaze Rhiano: triest to find OGP for linkset first...
  • [10:53] Morgaine Dinova: And most importantly of all, the parent and child links can't be closed off, ie. no perm setting to disallow hierarchical linking.
  • [10:54] Morgaine Dinova: Which is the biggest disaster of SL today, we can't build upon components built by others.
  • [10:54] Asterion Coen: morgain too bad.. how about doom addicted ?
  • [10:54] Morgaine Dinova: Didn't get that.
  • [10:54] Asterion Coen: the doom game
  • [10:55] Asterion Coen: the one where body can fly in all directions, and unlinked of crouse
  • [10:55] Morgaine Dinova: I know the game ... don't get the point :-)
  • [10:55] Asterion Coen: course
  • [10:55] Asterion Coen: uh oh, maybe i didnt get your sentence then :)
  • [10:55] Asterion Coen: (disallow hierarchical linking)
  • [10:55] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, don't think it's related.
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: OK.
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: I need to wander off to RL and chase down my malforumed URL
  • [10:56] Morgaine Dinova: kk, cya Zha, have fun
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: I'm serously looking for conctet proposals
  • [10:56] Asterion Coen: have a nice safari then zha :)
  • [10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Proposals for what?
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: On the SL wikis, or other places)
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: for specific things we should think about in AD extenrions
  • [10:57] Morgaine Dinova: Aha
  • [10:57] Asterion Coen: a brain ?
  • [10:57] Asterion Coen:  :)
  • [10:57] Morgaine Dinova: Which is the top of your wiki tree for your AD?
  • [10:57] Zha Ewry: Any place sane in the AWGroupies space?
  • [10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Suggest you provide the framework for it :-)
  • [10:58] Asterion Coen: the hair r the top of the av, morgain :) (at least for lot of them)
  • [10:58] Zha Ewry: I'll dig a bit
  • [10:58] Imaze Rhiano: Zero's meeting is starting in one hour?
  • [10:58] Asterion Coen: will be hard to link them all
  • [10:58] Zha Ewry: 2
  • [10:58] Zha Ewry: Zero's meeting is 1: SL
  • [10:58] Zha Ewry: So, two hours hence
  • [10:59] Imaze Rhiano: okay... I am going to have hour break then...
  • [10:59] Zha Ewry: which means I actually get a chance to get work done on Tuesdays
  • [10:59] Asterion Coen:  :)
  • [10:59] Imaze Rhiano: what we did achieve in this meeting?
  • [10:59] Imaze Rhiano: we dicussed a lot about languages... weather...
  • [11:00] Asterion Coen: avatar links
  • [11:00] Morgaine Dinova: No Ast, that's not what we were discussing :-)
  • [11:00] Morgaine Dinova: I'll explain after Zha leaves :-)
  • [11:00] Asterion Coen: hairless folks ?
  • [11:00] Imaze Rhiano: naked avatars
  • [11:00] Asterion Coen: (also)
  • [11:01] Imaze Rhiano: and Zha needs to be contact with hypergrid creator
  • [11:01] Imaze Rhiano: did you hear that Zha?
  • [11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: let us know if you create a basic top of your AD tree with a couple of headings, and we can start to knock ideas around.
  • [11:01] Imaze Rhiano: and get those ebil lawguys to allow you to publish your code...
  • [11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yeah, that's an action point for Zha, hehe
  • [11:02] Imaze Rhiano: or someone knows hypergrid creator? who was she?
  • [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Wow, she's got 3 action points! Poor Zha :P
  • [11:02] Asterion Coen: brevet and other copyright stuffs, i forgot that evolution in computer sciences :)
  • [11:02] Zha Ewry: I will try to have a wiki spot by Zero's OH hours
  • [11:03] Asterion Coen: now u need a server that hunt you code about copyrighted stuffs (whatever u copied it or not)