AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24

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  • [9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: hold on 30 seconds left...
  • [9:29] Zha Ewry: So, 5 minutes for people to actually show
  • [9:29] Zha Ewry: We have at least one agnda item:
  • [9:30] Asterion Coen: hmm i got an issue with a hud (about office hour meetings) impossible to detach it
  • [9:30] Zha Ewry: Which is my screed on the MMOX list
  • [9:30] Morgaine Dinova: Agenda item: Zha
  • [9:30] Asterion Coen: hehe we got 2 pokemon at the meeting :) morgaine and imaze :)
  • [9:31] Asterion Coen:  :))
  • [9:31] Tammy Nowotny: oh so cute
  • [9:31] Gareth Ellison: hey, i have cute bunnies
  • [9:31] Gareth Ellison: so.... zha - can we split up that "screed" into seperate items
  • [9:32] Gareth Ellison: just for those of us who have chronic multitasking and/or ADD.......
  • [9:32] Tammy Nowotny: I have a guide dog which I got yesterday
  • [9:32] Asterion Coen: hmm
  • [9:32] Tammy Nowotny: although he looks goffy when I am in a sitting position
  • [9:32] Asterion Coen: looks like im sitting on somebody
  • [9:32] Geo Meek: /dont look
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: It has, a nuber of seperate sectoins, so probably yes
  • [9:33] Asterion Coen: oh, geo, welcome on here :)
  • [9:33] Gareth Ellison: so, on with the splitting oh mighty zha
  • [9:33] Asterion Coen: didnt know u was awg member :)
  • [9:33] Tammy Nowotny: maybe you just shd give us a URL so we canpull up the web pge, Zha?
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: I'm going to, if possible, leave it as one slab of virtual paper for now
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: ah...
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: Umm
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: Hmm.
  • [9:33] Zha Ewry: Lets see how mmox archives look
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: takes a few minutes for stuff to show up sometimes but it should be there by now
  • [9:34] Zha Ewry: [1]
  • [9:34] Geo Meek: im sure its a mistake you not knowing
  • [9:34] Saijanai Kuhn: 626 messages... busy loittle group
  • [9:34] Gareth Ellison: damn....
  • [9:35] Morgaine Dinova: Not too bad if you remove the 400 from Prok
  • [9:35] Gareth Ellison: lol
  • [9:35] Geo Meek: i bit silly to have that many post
  • [9:35] Gareth Ellison: ok, so.... other collobrative environments zha?
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [9:35] Gareth Ellison: "Think about how these goals
  • and solutions could be applied to collaborative spaces such as Wikis, Micro blogging
  • streams and collaborative desktop and application environments. "
  • [9:35] Latha Serevi: Hey, before we dive fully into the MMOX kool-aid pool for today ... remember how LL was going to announce some decisions and stuff early in '09? Is everything interop subsumed by MMOX (I think not), or just overwhelmed by it for am onth?
  • [9:35] Zha Ewry: yeah, don't want to exclude telepathtically lnked chickens
  • [9:36] Gareth Ellison: yeah, i think we should stick to "virtual worldy" stuff myself
  • [9:36] Morgaine Dinova: That's not a bad question, Latha
  • [9:36] Gareth Ellison: rather than being one standard to standardise them all
  • [9:36] Morgaine Dinova: Is LL interop (OGP) dead, outside of MMOX?
  • [9:36] Saijanai Kuhn: looks atound for the telephone company guy from The PResident's Analyst
  • [9:37] Morgaine Dinova: Or is OGP being worked on still, outside of MMOX?
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: Ask a linden
  • [9:37] Latha Serevi: It makes sense that we would put our limited energies into MMOX until the IETF meting - I just wanted to get a little perspective before immersing aghain.
  • [9:37] Zha Ewry: And, so far, the answe would appear to be yes, its ongoing
  • [9:37] Gareth Ellison: what Latha said
  • [9:37] Gareth Ellison: although i think the end goal of OGP should really be under the IETF as an RFC
  • [9:37] Gareth Ellison: otherwise it's just a Second Life Access Guidelines For External Server Types
  • [9:37] Morgaine Dinova: A non-MMOX RFC, sure
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: OK, we clearly have a qurm
  • [9:38] Zha Ewry: So. I expect if we do this well, that the current OGP work ends up as a early deployment of a subset of what MMOX defines
  • [9:38] Gareth Ellison: emphasis on the "Second Life" bit of that, rather than the humorous anocrym
  • [9:38] Latha Serevi: Gareth, it'll be "IETF for the internet plumbing, plus maybe MPEG-V or Collada for the 3-d, plus..." right?
  • [9:38] Morgaine Dinova: hands Zha an 'o' and a 'u'
  • [9:38] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody
  • [9:38] Gareth Ellison: yeah, i was saying that OGP has some nice concepts that we can build on
  • [9:38] Geo Meek:  :-)
  • [9:39] Gareth Ellison: but it still basically assumes that "we all know what happens next" after you rez an avatar
  • [9:39] Gareth Ellison: the UDP magic
  • [9:39] Morgaine Dinova: Can I ask a question pls?
  • [9:39] Morgaine Dinova: About this meeting here
  • [9:39] Saijanai Kuhn: no
  • [9:39] Zha Ewry: One thing which Linden (an at times, many of us) need to do is stop thinking about this all as just Linden centric, but sure. Linden's saud, "The UDP gorp, never gets standardized"
  • [9:40] Zha Ewry: and.. go ahead Morgaine
  • [9:40] Morgaine Dinova: I am wondering if we are in "MMOX role" atm, or if we've got our SL/LL/OGP hats on
  • [9:40] Tammy Nowotny: one issue with interoperability is that there are different ways to model space in VWs... SL uses a 3-d world which is biunced by Z=0 and is otherwise infinite (unril you run out of integers at least): There.com uses, if I understood what they said at a recemt Metanomcis, a speherical world which is the size of the Earth. Google Earth is not a world per se but it is spherical and they are building Google Moon, Google Mars, etc.
  • [9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Because they conflict
  • [9:40] Gareth Ellison: Zha - yet the problem is that the UDP bit is essential
  • [9:40] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: essential to LL, not to MMOX
  • [9:40] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - OGP should essentially mutate into whatever the MMOX output is over time
  • [9:41] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - the UDP bits provide the objects that you see inworld
  • [9:41] Gareth Ellison: that's essential for any virtual world
  • [9:41] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: I know, but that's here, not in MMOX
  • [9:41] Gareth Ellison: the specific way it's implemented on SL is unique to SL of course
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: they do now, Gareth, the assertion from Linden is they won't in SL
  • [9:41] Morgaine Dinova: IT IS NOT
  • [9:41] FWord Utorid: I USE CAPS
  • [9:41] Zha Ewry: when it gets moved to http
  • [9:41] Morgaine Dinova: Jeez, what a daft ideqa, that UDP is essential to all worlds
  • [9:41] Gareth Ellison: i didn't mean UDP is essential
  • [9:42] Gareth Ellison: i meant object positions etc are essential
  • [9:42] Tammy Nowotny: that is just a concent I thought I shd bring up: the basic geometry may differ from world to world, and we shdn't limit the standard to a SL-like world
  • [9:42] Gareth Ellison: UDP is just part of the implementation
  • [9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: this is why I'm asking the question about hats. There appears to be a conflict here
  • [9:42] Saijanai Kuhn: well we covered that a bit by assuming non-cartesian worlds as being possible
  • [9:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zha's document is a MMOX document
  • [9:42] Tammy Nowotny: thanks Sai
  • [9:43] Morgaine Dinova: Therefore I'm assuming we have our non-SL hats on here
  • [9:43] Morgaine Dinova: Of course we could review it from an SL-protective perspective too,m but that';s a bit regressive
  • [9:43] FWord Utorid: what's the topic today anyway?
  • [9:43] Gareth Ellison: what i'm basically saying is, if you take OGP and define a nice basic "this is how you move objects" you have more of a generic VW standard
  • [9:43] Dedric Mauriac: can't you add a flag that says what type of coordinate system the object or world uses?
  • [9:43] Gareth Ellison: fword - Zha made a post to the mmox list
  • [9:43] Gareth Ellison: read the scrollback for an archive link
  • [9:44] Tammy Nowotny: agrees with Dedric
  • [9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth, seems to me that Olive and Croquet may not fit with your "generic VW standard" on such issues
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: I am assuming that going forward, 90% of the AWGroupy discussoin is going to be with MMOX hats on
  • [9:44] Gareth Ellison: well, croquet does have 3D objects, right?
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: I'm also assumign we're going to spend some time and energy on
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: "how do we do the SL/OpenSim specific work"
  • [9:44] Dedric Mauriac: I didn't get an MMOX hat. Can someone hand me one?
  • [9:44] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [9:44] Zha Ewry: But.. I see that, as very much a overlapping exercise
  • [9:44] Saijanai Kuhn: Tess suggested: ccordinate-system/float/float/float
  • [9:45] Morgaine Dinova: Tess is wrong, because she's implying that all VWs are going to have 3 dimensions of addressing
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: So.. what I posted, was an attept to capture some of the "What the heck are we rying to do here"
  • [9:45] Dedric Mauriac: is this per vector? if so, you have a lot of redundancy with defining the ccordinate system with each vector
  • [9:45] FWord Utorid: coordinate systems will be an issue if you have subdivisions like regions anyway, but that's not the point
  • [9:45] Zha Ewry: And, yes, Tess is in that case
  • [9:46] Gareth Ellison: err, define the co-ordinate system per vector?
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: weblins is shockingly 2d
  • [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: well, I think it was in terms of defining a destination to teleport too or somesuch, not per vector
  • [9:46] Elric Ember: SL/OpenSim gridnauts seem a natural milestone toward MMOX
  • [9:46] Gareth Ellison: surely it should be per object?
  • [9:46] Gareth Ellison: per object or per environment
  • [9:46] FWord Utorid: zha: computer screens are shockingly 2d
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: Per context, if you can do it
  • [9:46] Gareth Ellison: let's say "environment" or "scene" instead of "region" for discussion sake ;)
  • [9:46] Morgaine Dinova: Mostly, you've set the scene for defining the problem space, Zha
  • [9:46] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [9:47] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - your comment about 2D makes me think
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: and stareted to try and define what we might be talkig about by "interoperaing"
  • [9:47] Morgaine Dinova: Which is what a BoF should be, so that's good prep work
  • [9:47] Gareth Ellison: we have MIME types on objects to rescue us
  • [9:47] Dedric Mauriac: if an object is made of many vecords - are we defining the coordinate type for each vector? i'm concenred over redundancy in "ccordinate-system/float/float/float" why can't the object itself identify the coordinate system
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: and.. hopeflly reminded people firmly
  • [9:47] Gareth Ellison: yay for MIME types
  • [9:47] Gareth Ellison: if objects are assets and assets have MIME types......
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: that the goal is interoperaoing between mulitple implementations
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: with actual code and such
  • [9:47] Zha Ewry: Not blue sky and theory, we're actually constrained to show the spec embodied as code and working
  • [9:48] Gareth Ellison: i like the emphasis on actual code, it tastes nicer
  • [9:48] Gareth Ellison: pure theory tastes bad
  • [9:48] Morgaine Dinova: You rez faster when there's real code
  • [9:48] Dedric Mauriac: this hat looks funny
  • [9:48] Gareth Ellison: dedric - i actually renamed one of my oranges
  • [9:48] Zha Ewry: You also learn diff3rent things
  • [9:48] Saijanai Kuhn: *reproducable* code
  • [9:48] Gareth Ellison: now i've tricked you into wearing an orange
  • [9:48] Dedric Mauriac: orange you glad you tricked me?
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: Code is remarkably good at showing missed assumptions in specs
  • [9:49] Dedric Mauriac: i refuse to believe it is an orange. it explicitly states that it is an mmox hat
  • [9:49] Morgaine Dinova: purrs at Asterion for the milk :-)
  • [9:49] Gareth Ellison: ok, so.... i'm thinking that we can use MIME types on objects to define 2D/3D/bla, mesh/prims/whatever
  • [9:49] Asterion Coen: morgaine :)
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: That's one thing I'm trying to push on
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: Enumerating and marking
  • [9:49] Zha Ewry: witht hings like mime types, so we ca tell what things are
  • [9:50] Gareth Ellison: how about moving stuff around in nD space where n is 2 or 3?
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: (and that's precisely what the IETF is good at)
  • [9:50] Gareth Ellison: i think one point of contention will be "vendor specific types" or "neutral types"
  • [9:50] Saijanai Kuhn: would be interesting to see that mc escher build defined in its own coordinate space
  • [9:50] Gareth Ellison: it seems obvious that neutral types are good
  • [9:50] Dedric Mauriac: perhaps you could have a separate piece of data/mime type for specifying how to move objects
  • [9:50] Gareth Ellison: but i fear we'll end up with a type for SL prims
  • [9:50] Gareth Ellison: dedric - MIME types for streams?
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: A set, I hope, Gareth
  • [9:50] Zha Ewry: and there is nothing wrong with that
  • [9:50] Morgaine Dinova: Not one type, an extensible set
  • [9:51] Dedric Mauriac: not streams, animations
  • [9:51] Gareth Ellison: yeah, a set of types
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: I am perfectly happy if we have ways of having a MMOX server say to another service
  • [9:51] Rex Cronon: does anybody have an monitor that can display objects that have more than three dimensions:)
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: "Here comes a Linden Scuptly 1.2 graphical object"
  • [9:51] Gareth Ellison: rex - i'm saving up for one
  • [9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: only if you have 3 eyes
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: and "here comes a 3dMAX meshed object"
  • [9:51] Gareth Ellison: i like that approach
  • [9:51] Saijanai Kuhn: though 4 are preferred
  • [9:51] Dedric Mauriac: my monitor only displays the present
  • [9:51] Zha Ewry: and "Here is a linkset of Linden 2.X objects and 3dMax lmeshes"
  • [9:51] Tammy Nowotny: good idea Zha
  • [9:51] Gareth Ellison: i also like the approach of streaming events/movements etc with MIME types
  • [9:52] Morgaine Dinova: Prims are great ... even mesh-based worlds have prims, though they don't call them that ... they hand-craft mesh objects and re-use them. Prims are efficient, so good for the standard, even for mesh-based worlds. But of course, they should be OPTIONAL.
  • [9:52] Gareth Ellison: "here comes a stream of movements in (float,float,float) offsets from current pos"
  • [9:52] Saijanai Kuhn: I think this is where input from Croquet developers would be good
  • [9:52] Zha Ewry: I actually think, that one thing that's come up and been really postiive is that "streams" and in paritcular "Non immeersive strems" and how to share and sync them is important
  • [9:52] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - yeah, i think we agree that prims can be just one of many types
  • [9:53] Zha Ewry: Croquet, offers an interesting challange, that, they build up from t-objects which is a very non portable constryuct
  • [9:53] Yann Dufaux: accepted your inventory offer.
  • [9:53] Gareth Ellison: zha - streams, that's one i have running code for, and has 10 billion different other possible methods
  • [9:53] Morgaine Dinova: We all have monitors that can display things of more than 3 dimensions. After all, our monitors can't display 3 dimensions either --- it's a projection.
  • [9:53] Gareth Ellison: i think the question there is "what transport?" and "what serialisation?"
  • [9:53] Yann Dufaux: hello thx :)
  • [9:53] Zha Ewry: if you look at what I posted, one thing I point out
  • [9:54] Asterion Coen: yann :)
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: is that "Stream of state changes to a shared scene graph" is sort of the common building block
  • [9:54] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
  • [9:54] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha TObjects also have a concept of a universal time-synch to keep events ordered
  • [9:54] Gareth Ellison: i like the publish/subscribe model for streams
  • [9:54] Yann Dufaux: hello Asterion:))
  • [9:54] Gareth Ellison: mixed with "stream mixers"
  • [9:54] Gareth Ellison: like a chatroom
  • [9:54] Zha Ewry: That's painfully abstract, but it helps keep us in a stabl place
  • [9:54] Gareth Ellison: each person publishes their own stream
  • [9:54] Gareth Ellison: the chat server mixes them
  • [9:54] Gareth Ellison: if that makes sense
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: That's essenitally all sim does
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: on all levels
  • [9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: again, check out how teobjects keep synch with each other
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: clients send updates up
  • [9:55] Gareth Ellison: well, a sim also throws in it's own update stream too
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: the simmodels and merges them
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: and sends them down
  • [9:55] Gareth Ellison: actually, that's a nice clean model
  • [9:55] Gareth Ellison: sim takes as input user streams
  • [9:55] Gareth Ellison: it mixes user chat events into a chat stream
  • [9:55] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I don't think it's too abstract to make such a stream form the two endpoints of a [OGP/MMOP/etc
  • [9:55] Gareth Ellison: and spits out physics output in a movements stream
  • [9:55] Zha Ewry: right, and croquet, shares out the simulatoin, which is kind of messy on a web level
  • [9:55] Rex Cronon: they don't display objects in 3d. is a projection to a 2d space. although there are devices that do display 3d objects
  • [9:56] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: or even lower down, the endpoints of a continuous **SD stream.
  • [9:56] Gareth Ellison: is there existing work on generic streaming stuff that could be useful?
  • [9:57] Saijanai Kuhn: there's always quicktime/mpeg-4
  • [9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth: apparently not. Lisa seemed to thing there wasn;t anything that didn't have an HTTP element to it.
  • [9:57] Milele Demozay: Oh hi, I'm Lisa by the way.
  • [9:57] Zha Ewry: For the nonce, I am seperating out "non merged streamed content" from "Merged streamed content with scenegraph elements in it" in my head
  • [9:57] Gareth Ellison: heh, what does SIP use?
  • [9:57] Gareth Ellison: in most scenarios
  • [9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Lilele!
  • [9:57] Gareth Ellison: RTP!
  • [9:57] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Milele!
  • [9:57] Tammy Nowotny: hello Milele
  • [9:58] Gareth Ellison: that's the bitch - RTP
  • [9:58] Zha Ewry: Welcome to the zoo
  • [9:58] Morgaine Dinova: Lisa, did I quote you right?
  • [9:58] Gareth Ellison: apologies for the profanity........
  • [9:58] Milele Demozay: Not sure-- I'm missing a bit of context.
  • [9:58] Milele Demozay: There's lots of streaming protocols at the IETF, RTP as Gareth said
  • [9:58] Morgaine Dinova: We're talking about object update streaming
  • [9:58] Gareth Ellison: yeah, RTP doesn't really do pubsub
  • [9:59] Gareth Ellison: it's used for 1:1 calls
  • [9:59] Milele Demozay: SIP coordinates pubsub with its control protocol (text) then starts streaming (binary)
  • [9:59] Gareth Ellison: does SIP support pubsub?
  • [9:59] Milele Demozay: Yes
  • [9:59] Asterion Coen: ( i like milele profile, that's what i call an epured profile) :)
  • [9:59] Gareth Ellison: we have a winner?
  • [9:59] Milele Demozay: RFC3265
  • [10:00] Gareth Ellison: Milele - give a direct link?
  • [10:00] Morgaine Dinova: SIP dovetails with SCTP too, doesn't it?
  • [10:00] Zha Ewry: To an extent Morgaine
  • [10:00] Morgaine Dinova: ANd SCTP does everything we need for an object update stream.
  • [10:00] Milele Demozay: I believe so on SCTP
  • [10:01] Gareth Ellison: SCTP is raw transport surely, not pubsub semantics
  • [10:01] SharedRealm Engineer: SCTP doesn't work with all routers/firewalls.
  • [10:01] Zha Ewry: They all tend to assume the streams are more binary and sort of real time than what most VWs do
  • [10:01] Milele Demozay: [2]
  • [10:01] Gareth Ellison: unless you say "i'm publishing at this IP address here"
  • [10:01] Gareth Ellison: which is a bit nasty
  • [10:01] Gareth Ellison: zha - you ran a sniffer on most VWs?
  • [10:01] Morgaine Dinova: Yes, SCTP is raw transport, but it has all the semantics that TCP lack which are often used as an excuse for using UDP.
  • [10:01] Gareth Ellison: with the exception of IMVU, they all seem binary
  • [10:01] Gareth Ellison: IMVU btw, has a libimvu sitting on my harddisk coded in python
  • [10:02] Gareth Ellison: it's a text protocol
  • [10:02] SharedRealm Engineer: SCTP over UDP would work.
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: Binary streams of "objectish" updates
  • [10:02] Morgaine Dinova: ROFL
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: as opposed to Binary streams of codec fodder
  • [10:02] Milele Demozay: There's also DTLS for secure datagram traffic but it's pretty low-level and the higher-level transports ought to be examined first.
  • [10:02] Zha Ewry: (mind you, if the IMVU suff doesn't move as binary bits, I'm sort of umm. Disblieveing"
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: )
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: So, its all about encoding and serlizatoin
  • [10:03] Gareth Ellison: zha - they download assets from a PHP forum (!)
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: But.. a bunch of the SIP related stuff sort of asumes that the
  • [10:03] Gareth Ellison: and do movements using a text protocol
  • [10:03] Gareth Ellison: saying "my avatar is standing at standard point #325"
  • [10:03] Zha Ewry: the end points are streams of bits, not objects
  • [10:03] Gareth Ellison: *sit 253
  • [10:03] Gareth Ellison: is "i'm sitting on point 253 in this room"
  • [10:03] Gareth Ellison: and it's all dumped using HTTP polling
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:04] Gareth Ellison: makes unofficial clients trivial to knock up
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: which means it'sISO-859 or whatever, and then 8 bits of binary under that
  • [10:04] Milele Demozay: We'll be discussing alternatives to HTTP polling at the upcoming IETF too :)
  • [10:04] Milele Demozay: APPAREA meeting and a HTML5-outputs Bar BOF
  • [10:04] Zha Ewry: That's one of several reasons we're thinkg this is a good fit
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: I would love to see the VW style issues with HTTP poll, etc. discussed in parallel
  • [10:05] Gareth Ellison: i can remember someone mentioning a new HTTP verb designed solely for streaming
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: So... to try to keep to some vague semblance of agenda...
  • [10:05] Milele Demozay: I designed one of those -- HTTP NOTIFY -- 10 yrs ago. I'm much smarter now :)
  • [10:05] Gareth Ellison: heh
  • [10:05] Zha Ewry: I'm explicitly looking for feedback on the "scope screed"
  • [10:05] Gareth Ellison: this one has an RFC behind it
  • [10:06] Morgaine Dinova: The SIP if used would be something like the control stream in FTP though, with the actual data being handled over SCTP. ie SIP only does inittiation/teardown
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: and.. I'm also lookingfor us to re-ground our discussoin a bit in "What code will we actually embody this in in the next two years"
  • [10:06] Gareth Ellison: zha - i'll have to post a more detailed response on the list
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: Thanks Gareth, I look forward to it
  • [10:06] Gareth Ellison: but my general thoughts are that we need the MIME types for objects, and we need streams
  • [10:06] Zha Ewry: I'm not expecting real time feedback here, more.. pushign people to do exactly that
  • [10:06] Gareth Ellison: what code - something in python or C
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: and ask any questoins that woudl hepl witht hat
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: Well, more to the point
  • [10:07] Morgaine Dinova: Can we all agree that certain "contribution" on MMOX were out of scope?
  • [10:07] Gareth Ellison: some library and a suite of test apps
  • [10:07] Gareth Ellison: morgaine - yeah
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: "OpenSim and Linden's beta grid"
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: "Fortteraa will put out an endpoint doing X"
  • [10:07] Zha Ewry: and things like that
  • [10:07] Gareth Ellison: oy! litesim had OGP support in grid mode before opensim ;)
  • [10:08] Gareth Ellison: and full avatar migration \_/
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: And. Out of scope?
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: Yes please
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: I've explicitly listed 2
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: and I'm solicting more
  • [10:08] Gareth Ellison: well, i'd like to publically apologise for my badly thought out permissions proposal
  • [10:08] Zha Ewry: I'd argue that the other implicit one is "Keep ocean boiling to a minium"
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: Its easy to get all excited about some of the really big picture stuff
  • [10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth the permissions thing is called "the third rail" by LIndens, so not to worry
  • [10:09] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: since we have to implement this, I don't think there's a danger there :-)
  • [10:09] Gareth Ellison: i was thinking in the context of "i want to move stuff around without pestering copyright holders, and it's not going to enforce anything", but it turned into an ugly DRM thing
  • [10:09] Gareth Ellison: and i hate DRM
  • [10:09] Tammy Nowotny: anything about socialism is off topic, I shoudl think
  • [10:09] Gareth Ellison: Tammy - yeah, you only need to tell that one to prok
  • [10:09] Zha Ewry: but.. painfully easy to forget that in fact, we're likely to have to make it work with runnign code
  • [10:09] Morgaine Dinova: And capitalism is off topic too, please
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: I'd suggest that Catherine has done a good job with prok, as has Dan Olivares
  • [10:10] Tammy Nowotny: especially since capitalism died about 5 months ago :-)
  • [10:10] Zha Ewry: just point out the bad rhetoric an dmove on
  • [10:10] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [10:10] Gareth Ellison: nice and clean :)
  • [10:10] Asterion Coen: morgain what about scientist stuffs ? :)
  • [10:11] Gareth Ellison: can i also note the slight "us and them" divide that's cropping up at times on the MMOX list between SL and none-SL worlds?
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: When there is real technical content, we should happily address that, and if a real use case shows us
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: *up
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: the same
  • [10:11] Gareth Ellison: there's times when people say something is too SL-biased
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:11] Morgaine Dinova: scratches head
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: One thing to keep in mind is "SL is likely to be one interoperating endpoint"
  • [10:11] Gareth Ellison: and other times when people point out that it's not SL-biased but being falsely accused
  • [10:11] Zha Ewry: and Linden isn't going to be too interested in stuff they can't use
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: (nor is the OpenSim community, for that matter, I expect)
  • [10:12] Gareth Ellison: another thing - do we have an infinity online? cos she mentioned about sony et al would be important ones to contribute
  • [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: she's in a meeting
  • [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: brt she says
  • [10:12] Gareth Ellison: ok
  • [10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: conflict of interest in a char --- how is that resolved?
  • [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: excape code the char?
  • [10:12] Zha Ewry: If.. we see a chair acting badly
  • [10:12] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
  • [10:12] Morgaine Dinova: chair*
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: you appeal ot the iESG and the Areaa Diretcors
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: Since we're pre-bof
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: Umm
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: We don't exactly even have chairs
  • [10:13] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: NOOOOOOOOO ---- long before nasty action.
  • [10:13] Morgaine Dinova: We want harmony
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: Before that, we say "hey Infinity, mellow out"
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: or "Hey, Zha, chill"
  • [10:13] Gareth Ellison: surely declaring the conflict of interest should be enough provided it's obviously not impairing impartial judgement?
  • [10:13] Zha Ewry: or "Zha if you don't put on my orange hat, I will be grumpy"
  • [10:14] Gareth Ellison: lol
  • [10:14] Milele Demozay: We frequently have chairs who are employed by companies who have an interest in the technology
  • [10:14] Infinity Linden: hey folks... sorry for being late... meetings
  • [10:14] Morgaine Dinova: I think it's important that either Infinity is SEEN to be agnostic, or that when she presents her Linden case then she says that she is doing so.
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: the IETF assumes that the chair cts as an individual,
  • [10:14] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity --- just in time
  • [10:14] Milele Demozay: It's a bit of a bias in the IETF, to be honest, because big companies can afford the time spent by employees.
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: and.. the challange (having been there, done that, gotten the tee shirt)
  • [10:14] Infinity Linden: yes. i am a linden
  • [10:14] Zha Ewry: is to be clear which hat you are wearing
  • [10:14] Tammy Nowotny: hello Infinity
  • [10:14] Infinity Linden: this is why i am not the mailing list chair
  • [10:14] Asterion Coen: infinity that time u r realy realy realy late from the breakfast time
  • [10:14] Milele Demozay: But the great thing is that engineers are usually above narrow corporate interest.
  • [10:15] Infinity Linden: nor am i the proposed working group chair
  • [10:15] Zha Ewry: So.. from time to time I will say things explicitly "IBM would prefer X" to make my hat clear
  • [10:15] Morgaine Dinova: That's excellent
  • [10:15] Milele Demozay: You have to remember that an engineer's point of view is deeply influenced by what they know well, but the way to deal with that is not to yell "BIAS" but to educate them on alternative POVs.
  • [10:15] Morgaine Dinova: nods at Lisa
  • [10:16] Gareth Ellison: my god, you don't want to know how much me and a bunch of others were heavily SL-influenced with a totally different project
  • [10:16] Infinity Linden: also keep in mind that there are reasons we did things the way we did... i've been "in the middle of it all" so i have an intuitive understanding of the technology decisions we've made
  • [10:16] Zha Ewry: Right
  • [10:16] Infinity Linden: some good. some bad. and i'm hoping we can avoid the bad ones
  • [10:16] Morgaine Dinova: But they are specifif to your technology, Infi
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: One thing I did in my screed, was avoid all the Linden and (forthat matter other world) centric words I could
  • [10:17] Gareth Ellison: there's parts of SL that are very obvious "just get it working" hacks
  • [10:17] Infinity Linden: our half implemented TFTP like texture transport for instance... bad
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: wears Gareth's orange
  • [10:17] Gareth Ellison: yay!
  • [10:17] Zha Ewry: See, complaint techie
  • [10:18] Gareth Ellison: infinity - should have been HTTP from the start
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: There is a funny balancing act coming up
  • [10:18] Gareth Ellison: why wasn't it?
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: Which is that people like Linden (and possibly OpenSim implementors) are constrained by exiesting code
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: It would be really good, if we can get superset solutions
  • [10:18] Zha Ewry: not ones which say "rip up huge amounts of code"
  • [10:18] Infinity Linden: @gareth... i agree... but back then i was just a beta tester and many of the peeps who were implementing the code came from a games background who said ... "oh my $DIETY! i must use UDP"
  • [10:19] Gareth Ellison: how very odd those devs are
  • [10:19] Zha Ewry: and then promptly re-did the TCP layer badly
  • [10:19] Infinity Linden: and i should also point out that there are some very selfish reaons for using UDP in an environment where TCP is driving traffic to the network rate
  • [10:19] Tammy Nowotny: such as...?
  • [10:20] Gareth Ellison: i can see possibly overhead, but such overhead can't be THAT expensive
  • [10:20] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: we're not defining an architecture though, but only a protocol and interface --- so really existing worlds aren't constrained by their existing code too much --- they don't NEED to handle everything, but just go for limited exchange initially.
  • [10:20] Infinity Linden: (that is... we can generally use UDP to cause the comparatively less-flexible windows TCP stack to begin traffic back off earlier
  • [10:20] Zha Ewry: yes, and no, Morgaine
  • [10:20] Infinity Linden: thus having our traffic go to the head of the queue
  • [10:20] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:20] Infinity Linden: this is "wrong" on so many levels
  • [10:20] Gareth Ellison: yeah
  • [10:21] Gareth Ellison: it smells like horribly premature optimisation
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: if we do stuff that makes it really hard to migrate from the current code bases, we're likely to see people just throw up thier hands in disgyt
  • [10:21] Zha Ewry: Exactly, Gareth
  • [10:21] Infinity Linden: especially as we start moving more of our stuff to be XML/LLSD over HTTPS
  • [10:21] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: why "migrate"?
  • [10:21] Morgaine Dinova: It's additional
  • [10:21] Gareth Ellison: you migrate to new server software that supports the new standards
  • [10:22] Morgaine Dinova: Only at the interop interface
  • [10:22] Infinity Linden: that's the plan
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: Which leads to the "What is the interop interface discussion"
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: which is a good one
  • [10:22] Gareth Ellison: is the interop interface a proxy?
  • [10:22] Gareth Ellison: cos that's one i like
  • [10:22] Gareth Ellison: me likey lot
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: hopefully its a set of web services
  • [10:22] Zha Ewry: which proxy be default
  • [10:22] Infinity Linden: but i should probably point out.. we're interested in a highly constrained version of "interop"
  • [10:23] Gareth Ellison: that's the approach i used to drag my avatar out of SL with group chat intact
  • [10:23] Morgaine Dinova: Well, it's not about sims --- those are implementation details. We define interop endpoints, and how an architecture maps those is its business.
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: since anything epressed as a webservices endpoint is easy to proxy
  • [10:23] Gareth Ellison: and to TP into arbitary osgrid.org regions via OGP before OGP was deployed there
  • [10:23] Gareth Ellison: \_/
  • [10:23] Infinity Linden: LL has no interest in making a general purpose client that allows users to connect to SL and WoW and qwaq and OLIVE based systems
  • [10:23] Zha Ewry: Whichi isn't interop, so much as unification
  • [10:23] Gareth Ellison: zha - i meant a proxy of the "converting protocols" type
  • [10:23] Infinity Linden: gareth... please... shall we not talk about the way you abused the ToS?
  • [10:23] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, the endpoints are service endpoints. Not sims in the spec, although of course if a company chooses to expose internal servers that's its business.
  • [10:24] Gareth Ellison: sorry
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: Welll.. up to a point, sure
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: At some point, endpoints bind onto real services, and there are some mapping which matter
  • [10:24] Infinity Linden: part of the reason we want to have a protocol is so you can do what you want to do without getting our lawyers upste
  • [10:24] Infinity Linden: upset
  • [10:24] Zha Ewry: Infinity, given lawyers, you probably mean "less upset"
  • [10:25] Gareth Ellison: infinity - yeah, i'm saying the same approach could be used in a fully lawyer-compliant manner
  • [10:25] Gareth Ellison: i.e given an existing incompatible codebase, a proxy is the easiest way to do new protocols
  • [10:25] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: the client is open source though, so clients in your space will be interfacing to a pile of VWs simultaneously.
  • [10:25] Gareth Ellison: since it doesn't require any changes to the existing code
  • [10:25] Zha Ewry: Which is fine, morgaine, as long as nobody is required to build a omniversalclient to do stuff, unless they want to
  • [10:25] Asterion Coen: infinity lawyers r always upset :)
  • [10:26] Asterion Coen: that's why they got a salary :)
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: I think Infinity's point, is that Linden doesn't plano n buiding the omni-doird
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: *omnidroid
  • [10:26] Infinity Linden: @Morgaine. great. knock yourself out
  • [10:26] Tammy Nowotny: not all lawyrers get a salary... some have their own practices
  • [10:26] Infinity Linden: and i'm glad you're using our code to do it
  • [10:26] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:26] Zha Ewry: (Which given how that worked out in the increidbles is probably a good thing)
  • [10:26] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: not cool
  • [10:26] Rex Cronon: imagine that. being paid to be groumpY:)
  • [10:27] Infinity Linden: Linden Lab is not interested in supporting a client that connects to each of these VWs simultaneously
  • [10:27] Infinity Linden: we won't get in the way
  • [10:27] Infinity Linden: but it's not our objective
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: One thing, which would scare the dickens out of me, is requireing that
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: We may get there
  • [10:27] Zha Ewry: But, people should be able to build much smaller clients and have it all work
  • [10:27] Gareth Ellison: basically, each single world needs an extra listener for the new protocol we define
  • [10:28] blotto Epsilon: Infinity, re "highly constrained version of interop" -- can you say what kind of interop LL does want to have?
  • [10:28] Zha Ewry: see my comments about "growing out interoperable puddles"
  • [10:28] Gareth Ellison: that extra listener can be in the same servers (existing servers), or can be with the proxy method
  • [10:29] Infinity Linden: we like interop, defined by the community, that allows us to implement a protocol that is usable by client software other than our own
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: I expect someone will build a "swiss army client"
  • [10:29] Rex Cronon: if is a very light client, u could possible have multiple instances of it connected at same time to different VW
  • [10:29] Infinity Linden: and that client software SHOULD be able to connect to other worlds
  • [10:29] Zha Ewry: I don't think were requiring it
  • [10:29] Asterion Coen: zha with the chocolates :)
  • [10:29] Infinity Linden: (i.e. you can use a completely different client to connect to SL or OSGrid or LCO or whatever)
  • [10:29] blotto Epsilon: nods
  • [10:29] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: Infinity, I'd love to see some of those words captured in the scope screed
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: as one of the "interop goals"
  • [10:30] Infinity Linden: with the understanding that there might be other worlds that decide "i'm not using your ugly prims! i'm using meshes"
  • [10:30] Infinity Linden: and it would be TOTALLY AWESOME if the bits of the protocol that are not dependent on Prims vs. Meshes be exactly the same
  • [10:30] Zha Ewry: at which point, 90% of the world is blank wood textured default sized boxes if you use the prim only client, So be it.
  • [10:31] Infinity Linden: so you might not get the same client program
  • [10:31] Asterion Coen: what could be fun, is that an avatar from wow (or else) can meet a SL avatar on a third party virtual world :)
  • [10:31] Infinity Linden: but you could use a lot of the same libraries
  • [10:31] Infinity Linden: or
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: Seperation of concerns should make that trivial in theory
  • [10:31] Infinity Linden: if you designed a client that was a touch more sane than ours
  • [10:31] Infinity Linden: it could use plugins
  • [10:31] Zha Ewry: The place where it doesn't work, is when the granulaity gets wonky
  • [10:31] Tammy Nowotny: soeme of the old mainland sims are 90% plwyood boxes already. LOL.
  • [10:31] Morgaine Dinova: If LL's position is that they will only support a "highly constrained version of interop", then it is even more important that we hear when LL personnel are speaking on behalf of LL or acting as even-handed co-chairs.
  • [10:31] Gareth Ellison: infinity - the prims vs meshses are seperate MIME types :)
  • [10:32] Infinity Linden: Zero and I are in the process of pelting our engineers with rotten vegetables from the "separation of concerns" farm
  • [10:32] Infinity Linden: @Gareth... exactly
  • [10:32] Rex Cronon: next we know people will pay their WOW subscription with lindens:)
  • [10:32] Zha Ewry: +1 Infinity, Gareth
  • [10:33] Infinity Linden: there should be NO reason that the prims vs. meshes debate touches on say... teh auth protocol
  • [10:33] Morgaine Dinova: Well WoW magic might help with IM lag, good point
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: WHat I don't have a good model in my head for, is when you have two worlds have very differenr granularity building blocks yet
  • [10:33] Infinity Linden: likewise... the auth model (JHurliman likes an array of grids untrusted to each other, we like an arry of grids trusted )
  • [10:33] Gareth Ellison: prims vs meshes, is "MIME type A vs MIME type B"
  • [10:33] Infinity Linden: also has no impact on... say... what voice or IM technology you use
  • [10:33] Zha Ewry: mechanism vs. policy there
  • [10:34] Gareth Ellison: think..... some browsers don't render SVG images
  • [10:34] Infinity Linden: personally... i'm interested in getting my salary in lindens instead of US pesos
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: We put in the afforidancs in the protocol to allow the security stuff to be donw properly
  • [10:34] Gareth Ellison: LOL, that'd be great
  • [10:34] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: simple answer, no objects cross the divide. We can't force interop, we can only provide the mechanisms for it.
  • [10:34] Zha Ewry: and thn people use hem or don't.
  • [10:34] Asterion Coen: *Lol
  • [10:34] Gareth Ellison: if LL could pay it's staff in L$
  • [10:34] FWord Utorid: votes for the dollar over the linden, sorry
  • [10:34] Tammy Nowotny: the Linden buck was actually a good investment last year
  • [10:34] Infinity Linden: @gareth... yup. that's a good point. i think most browsers now support SVG
  • [10:34] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:34] Infinity Linden: getting to that point was painful
  • [10:34] Tammy Nowotny: although not many places in RL use it
  • [10:35] Gareth Ellison: infinity - but, lynx for example doesn't support SVG
  • [10:35] Infinity Linden: and *grumble*grumble* safari with it's non standard SVG support
  • [10:35] FWord Utorid: you can't live on a virtual sandwich
  • [10:35] Gareth Ellison: and those browsers that didn't support it were still usable
  • [10:35] Asterion Coen: linden $ is still interrestion about the buy/sell of monetaries
  • [10:35] Infinity Linden: @gareth... yes it does
  • [10:35] Asterion Coen: even with no avatars :)
  • [10:35] Infinity Linden: you can call out to a helper program that will render svg
  • [10:35] Gareth Ellison: wow
  • [10:35] Gareth Ellison: except, that's not inline
  • [10:35] Infinity Linden: (though i think you're rigth for embedded svg... i was thinking of when you downloaded full svg documents)
  • [10:35] Gareth Ellison: but still, interesting idea
  • [10:35] Zha Ewry: Wlell, for things like the linden dollar, Iw ould hope that's just a nece extensible spot in the prorocol
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: that says "Economic marker here"
  • [10:36] Infinity Linden: but it's a good point
  • [10:36] Infinity Linden: well... lynx was designed clearly to avoid graphics
  • [10:36] Infinity Linden: we've talked about "low capability viewers"
  • [10:36] Zha Ewry: So that a price is "<Price, Linden Dollar, $500> or <price, WOW Gold Bit 1G 2s, 3c>
  • [10:36] Tammy Nowotny: Lynx.. the old non-graphical web browser?
  • [10:36] Infinity Linden: or "domain specific clients"
  • [10:36] Gareth Ellison: you also have IE which screwed up PNG transparency for a long time
  • [10:36] Gareth Ellison: but the point is that "it still works"
  • [10:37] Gareth Ellison: you don't need to support every possible kind of image to make a web browser
  • [10:37] Zha Ewry: with proper mime types and all in the right places
  • [10:37] Infinity Linden: i have an apple dashboard widget that lets me god shout in various regions and do various grid monkey things. it was annoying to develop
  • [10:37] Infinity Linden: very annoying
  • [10:37] Gareth Ellison: brb all
  • [10:37] Morgaine Dinova: Our systems will evolve, I don;t think we should be dismayed that there will be the equivalent to the web's "broken images" in the early stages.
  • [10:37] Infinity Linden: it would be very nice if we coul dhave a system that allowed the client to register what things it's interested in
  • [10:37] Tammy Nowotny: but you do need to support the formats peoole actualy use... especially since you can't count on them to add the appropraute metadata
  • [10:38] Infinity Linden: so the "lynx viewer" would maybe display some gross geometry stats
  • [10:38] Infinity Linden: and text chat
  • [10:38] ruthie Loopen: hey
  • [10:38] Asterion Coen: zah when a monetary is going up, an other will go down. the l$ use to be about stable , so u can buy some usd, resell in GPB, or euro, depending of the better rates without some risky operations :)
  • [10:38] Zha Ewry: just pointing out that, we want to be able to do any encomic activity in a currency agnostic way
  • [10:38] Infinity Linden: (which.. btw.. is why we do our auth the way we do... after auth, you request which capabilitues you want to use)
  • [10:39] Gareth Ellison: lynx for SL is TestClient
  • [10:39] Morgaine Dinova: Pretty each to handle currency extensibly, just a tuple with a tag
  • [10:39] Morgaine Dinova: easy*
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: eactly morgaine
  • [10:39] Zha Ewry: slaps the X key
  • [10:39] Gareth Ellison: hey, let's code all clients in lisp and make the network protocol a stream of s-expressions
  • [10:39] Gareth Ellison:  ;)
  • [10:39] Infinity Linden: but yeah... gareth... i thnk what you were getting at is it's annoying when different programs support things differently
  • [10:40] Morgaine Dinova: Gareth++
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: Heh. The one implicit buiding block, I think, is webish XMlish gorp
  • [10:40] Tammy Nowotny: is a "God Shout" what happens when you geta Blue dialog box saying "Region Will Restart in 7 seconds" or whatever?
  • [10:40] Gareth Ellison: infinity - what i was getting at is "HTTP doesn't depend on SVG"
  • [10:40] Wyn Galbraith: OMG what did I accept!
  • [10:40] Infinity Linden: and part of what we're trying to avoid through proper appliation of standards is the situation we had with HTML
  • [10:40] Zha Ewry: /hey Wyn
  • [10:40] Gareth Ellison: that HTML works even if you don't support CSS or SVG?
  • [10:40] Gareth Ellison:  :)
  • [10:40] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: inevitable though, that's what interop will be about, until the days there's just one cohesive metavers, is is probably never
  • [10:40] Wyn Galbraith: Hey guys Sai tricked me
  • [10:40] Elric Ember: Fail gracefully for granularity mismatches by substituting a default rendering in the scene graph or apply a transform to the input (ala xslt mapping, etc) providing a rendering that makes sense in the receiver's context.
  • [10:41] Morgaine Dinova: waves to Wyn
  • [10:41] Asterion Coen: hey wyn
  • [10:41] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [10:41] Zha Ewry: Content negotiation is good stuff elric
  • [10:41] Infinity Linden: where most browsers are forgiving about what kind of HTML they support, but they're forgiving in different ways
  • [10:41] Wyn Galbraith: is back beware
  • [10:41] Zha Ewry: and, yeah, sooner or later, you end up with a default blank "missing link" image
  • [10:41] Morgaine Dinova: No biggie
  • [10:41] Tammy Nowotny: which is why I have 7 different web browsers on my Mac, Infinity :-)
  • [10:41] Rex Cronon: lol. did he offer u cookies:)
  • [10:42] Infinity Linden: @Elric... yeah... that's a great objective... but i would be happy if we could agree on a bit length for integers in LLSD
  • [10:42] Gareth Ellison: mmmm content negotiation
  • [10:42] Asterion Coen: tammy LOL
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: Can I ask us to try something utterly nastu in the next 20 minutes?
  • [10:42] Zha Ewry: *Nasty
  • [10:42] Gareth Ellison: GET [3] with accept-type: of x-vendor-sl-prims
  • [10:42] Yann Dufaux: loll, tammy i use only firefox and ie7 :)
  • [10:42] Asterion Coen: what i like in HTML is that is supposed to be a standard :)
  • [10:42] Gareth Ellison: that could work nicely
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: "Given all this, how do we tie this to specific specs like OGP, LLSD, ad X.509?"
  • [10:43] Morgaine Dinova: In any case, in the early years we're going to have tons of "broken objects" --- every time that someone TPs somewhere wearing an item from an SL creator that doesn't want interop.
  • [10:43] Wyn Galbraith: Chrome doesn't like it
  • [10:43] Wyn Galbraith: Nm
  • [10:43] Wyn Galbraith: doh
  • [10:43] Asterion Coen: (IE7 sucks)
  • [10:43] Yann Dufaux: hello, infinity
  • [10:43] Zha Ewry: Becausse, the IETF is going to ask that questoin, of us, effectively
  • [10:43] Wyn Galbraith: agree IE sucks still got to test on it
  • [10:43] Yann Dufaux: yeah, i wait for ie8 :)
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: "What specs are you going to generate"
  • [10:44] Morgaine Dinova: Until the protectionists see the errod of their ways or go out of business, broken objects will be a part of life after TP.
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: "When"
  • [10:44] Yann Dufaux: but its just an RC now
  • [10:44] Asterion Coen: (IE8 will be worst)
  • [10:44] Zha Ewry: "What interop will happen"
  • [10:44] Yann Dufaux: well, i keep firefox and i wait for firefox 4 :)
  • [10:44] Infinity Linden: morgaine... can you add context to that incendiary comment?
  • [10:44] Infinity Linden: (honestly... it can be taken a lot of ways...)
  • [10:45] Milele Demozay: Yes Zha, and old-time IETFers are going to have a pretty hard time looking at the specs already published and see how that's necessary for MMOX
  • [10:45] Zha Ewry: I take it as happily out of scope. We'll define mechanisms which permit people to deploy various IPR regiemes and step back and watch evolution happen
  • [10:45] Milele Demozay: BTW, IETF meeting etiquette/rules are that attendees of the physical meetings read all the docs listedin the agenda beforehand.
  • [10:45] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: it's not incendiary, just factual. I assume you're going to respect creators wishes, so after TP, people wearing things without interop perms will not have them.
  • [10:45] Infinity Linden: @Milele.. you mean LLSD?
  • [10:46] Milele Demozay: Yes
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: Read and actually attempt to understand in fact
  • [10:46] Infinity Linden: kk morgain... took it the wrong way
  • [10:46] Gareth Ellison: zha - what do you think on the content negotiation thing for whole scenes?
  • [10:46] Infinity Linden: my bad
  • [10:46] Morgaine Dinova: kk
  • [10:46] Infinity Linden: well.. we're NOT going to use ASN.1
  • [10:46] Gareth Ellison: like, to be nuts some kind of "SL-UDP-packets-streamed-over-http" MIME type
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: got told by an old IETF hand "Its not enough to pass your eyeballs over it"
  • [10:46] Zha Ewry: "You actually are supposed to try and make sense of it"
  • [10:46] Infinity Linden: and XDR doesn't have the types we need
  • [10:47] Infinity Linden: and both have semantics that are show-stoppers for us
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: I think, Infinity, we need some use cases and some objective statements which say that
  • [10:47] Milele Demozay: The cutoff for submitting new -00 drafts is March 2, in case anybody wants to add to the list of what we might expect IETF oldtimers to read to prepare themselves.
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: and probably some explanatoin about why XML with DTD and SCHEMA isn't sufficient
  • [10:47] Milele Demozay: In the long run there's no difference in the way we treat people who come from VW experience and people who come from IETF protocol design experience, but at the BOF there will be a deep gulf
  • [10:47] Zha Ewry: Since people will ask that
  • [10:47] Infinity Linden: i think i need to add some motivation for LLSD in the front of it
  • [10:48] Infinity Linden: or at least reference an external link
  • [10:48] Milele Demozay: That would be great
  • [10:48] Infinity Linden: in the references
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: I'd do both, Infinity
  • [10:48] Milele Demozay: you can always cut out justifying information in a later version
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: People read documents
  • [10:48] Infinity Linden: 'cause honestly... there's a reason we didn't jsut use XML
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: people don't just follow links
  • [10:48] Infinity Linden: or JSON
  • [10:48] Infinity Linden: or ASN.1 or XDR
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: There ae, but people don't have the context
  • [10:48] Infinity Linden: some of it came out in the discussions with JW
  • [10:48] Zha Ewry: Sure, capture some of that
  • [10:49] Infinity Linden: he was like... why not just define the protocol and be done with it? XML-RPC is something people use
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: And I see more of it lurking in the discussoin with Catherine
  • [10:49] Infinity Linden: which.. is a perfectly valid question
  • [10:49] Infinity Linden: is Catherine here?
  • [10:49] Rex Cronon: considering that in sl is possible to copy textures, 3d objects, is very unlikely that anything from WOW will get here any time soon
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: I don't think so
  • [10:49] Infinity Linden: i would be happy to chat with her if she wants to go for a new XML serialization
  • [10:49] Morgaine Dinova: Lisa: how do updates to drafts beyond -00 get put up? We currently have the problem that we've make 4 iterations of the original charter draft, yet the IETF wiki still only shows the original, so all our work on updates us currently not visible.
  • [10:49] Zha Ewry: Well, you can capture all of those in Wow too
  • [10:49] Infinity Linden: these things aren't RFCs at the moment
  • [10:50] Rex Cronon: here u can also sell them
  • [10:50] Infinity Linden: so we have time to get additional drafts and munge them as peeps see fit
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: That's a good questoin.. What is the process for managing drafts in progress?
  • [10:50] Milele Demozay: The IETF wiki was for the purpose of approving the BOF
  • [10:50] Milele Demozay: now that the BOF is approved it's historic
  • [10:50] Milele Demozay: I can mark it as such
  • [10:50] Infinity Linden: @morgaine.. there's an ID draft submission tool
  • [10:50] Gareth Ellison: not much of a wiki when nobody can edit it
  • [10:50] FWord Utorid: the thing about all of this that is happy tricky and people forget while we go for standards and stuff.... the guy who wants to sell his stuff benefitted from the fact that the protocol was closed for a while
  • [10:50] Zha Ewry: Now, now, Gareth, they all end up lik that anyway
  • [10:50] FWord Utorid: when it becomes common knowledge how it all works and so on there's no commodity
  • [10:51] FWord Utorid: and Infinity's L$ checks bounce :P
  • [10:51] Zha Ewry: lurves wikis,but they are such bogs of bit rot
  • [10:51] Infinity Linden: i believe that if you made a new draft, you would be a new author so it would be something like draft-<your actual last name>-vwsd-00.txt
  • [10:51] Infinity Linden: or some such
  • [10:51] Milele Demozay: Yeah we're not very good at using wikis in IETF, sorry
  • [10:51] Zha Ewry: How do we mark "rough consensus drafts" ?
  • [10:52] Milele Demozay: Drafts that a WG has accepted are draft-ietf-<wgname>-subject
  • [10:52] Tammy Nowotny: although some people will alwasy opt to buy instead of make... making takes time and knowledge, and some p[eople have limited amounts of those things
  • [10:52] Infinity Linden: @FWord. people don't benefit from protocols being closed
  • [10:52] Zha Ewry: I'd like to be able to say "This is one we'd like to propose as one that has a otugh consensus"
  • [10:52] Milele Demozay: But that doesn't mean that the WG has come to consensus yet on the content
  • [10:52] Zha Ewry: and eventually "This is one"
  • [10:52] Infinity Linden: they cease to benefit when scarcity controls are removed
  • [10:52] Infinity Linden: and
  • [10:52] Gareth Ellison: +1 infinity
  • [10:52] Latha Serevi: Could it be that we would benefit from creating a semi-official MMOX scratchpad wiki?
  • [10:52] Infinity Linden: i don't think we're interested in eliminating the lynch-pin of our ecosystem's economy
  • [10:52] Milele Demozay: An RFC is how we eventually mark a doc as having consensus :)
  • [10:52] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:52] Zha Ewry: How does a WG in pre-bof days "accept a draft?"
  • [10:52] Infinity Linden: it's orthogonal to protocol
  • [10:52] Milele Demozay: Zha: it can't
  • [10:53] Zha Ewry: chuckles
  • [10:53] Zha Ewry: Gah
  • [10:53] Infinity Linden: well.. that makes sense in a way
  • [10:53] Zha Ewry: It does
  • [10:53] Milele Demozay: It would be premature to accept docs before having an agreed charter and having me assign chairs :)
  • [10:53] Milele Demozay: But you can mark them for reading by getting them on the bof agenda,
  • [10:53] Zha Ewry: It makes it bit hard to bash the charter
  • [10:53] Infinity Linden: and is also part of the reason why there are no real milestones in the draft charter before 2009
  • [10:53] Infinity Linden: er
  • [10:53] Infinity Linden: oct 2009
  • [10:53] Milele Demozay: and there's a convention to use "draft-<myname>-mmox-<subject>" to make the intended WG home clear.
  • [10:53] Infinity Linden: (i think gareth asked that on the list)
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: kay
  • [10:54] FWord Utorid: @Infinity, of course people benefit from protocols being closed, or nobody would have shit bricks about things like copybot
  • [10:54] Milele Demozay: Zha: you can put links to individual drafts in the charter, does that help?
  • [10:54] Morgaine Dinova: Lisa: currently we've been using a pass-the-baton approach, so people have been improving each other's previous versions. Should we ask a co-chair, or the AD, or what, to post a new version to the wiki? Should co-chairs we asking "Is this OK folks for a new revision?" Or what? How does it work?
  • [10:54] Infinity Linden: but... we have a closed protocol at the moment and we also have copybot
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: A little
  • [10:54] Infinity Linden: um
  • [10:54] Infinity Linden: actually
  • [10:54] Infinity Linden: no
  • [10:54] Milele Demozay: The mailing list is where experienced IETFers will go to find the latest charter proposal
  • [10:54] Zha Ewry: I'll find the four drafts out there in the acchive an highlight them to people
  • [10:54] Tammy Nowotny: closing the protocol often kakes it HARDER to find the holes in it
  • [10:54] Infinity Linden: we have not been doing the pass the baton
  • [10:55] Tammy Nowotny: *makes it HARDER
  • [10:55] Milele Demozay: It's OK to have it somewhere else as long as it's periodically copied to the list
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: you don't get to redefine the draft charter becuase you don't want OGP published
  • [10:55] FWord Utorid: don't sweat it, I am just here for target practice.
  • [10:55] Tammy Nowotny: open source protocols are usually more secure, in fact
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: it's something that must be a discussion in the community as a whole
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: if we move LLSD to being an informational RFC
  • [10:55] FWord Utorid: just umm... don't go into space without a helmet
  • [10:55] Infinity Linden: then the OGP RFCs that follow cannot be standards
  • [10:55] Latha Serevi: I also find the volume of discussion a bit overwhelming. So, although the MMOX mailing list should probably be the "on the record" gold standard, I wish some kind soul would maintain a "executive summary" stream or blog, and that we had a set of scratch pad wiki pages (perhaps Groupies/MMOX, or is that too SL?)
  • [10:56] Infinity Linden: (as they depend on LLSD as a normative reference)
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: they have to be informatoinal as well
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: becuasee you can't have an normative depdn on an informational
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: Which really does make sense
  • [10:56] Morgaine Dinova: Lisa: yes, the revisions are in the mailing list. The trouble is, some people are continually posting links to the original, thus totally ignoring the process that lead to the revisions.
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: Well, they aren't revisions
  • [10:56] Zha Ewry: they are one or more persons's take
  • [10:56] Infinity Linden: so simply saying "i want LLSD to be informational and i edited the draft charter" does not make that charter authorative"
  • [10:57] Zha Ewry: which is why beinfg "pre bof" is a bit hard
  • [10:57] Infinity Linden: yup
  • [10:57] Infinity Linden: but
  • [10:57] Infinity Linden: all things considered
  • [10:57] Infinity Linden: it's good to get this stuff out in theopen
  • [10:57] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: they are IETF Contributions --- that's what I'm asking, how does one create revisions?
  • [10:57] Zha Ewry: They don't superceed tho
  • [10:57] Infinity Linden: good question morgaine...
  • [10:58] Zha Ewry: what we effectively have is 3 or 4 seperate wordings being proposed
  • [10:58] Milele Demozay: Ultimately the people chairing the BOF get to decide what version to present at that meeting
  • [10:58] Infinity Linden: Miele... certainly morgaine doesn't have to submit a new draft charter for a new group, right?
  • [10:58] Milele Demozay: I asked Infinity and Barry Leiba (very experienced IETF colleague) to chair the BOF
  • [10:58] Infinity Linden: ugh. i think this debate is going to go on for a while
  • [10:58] Infinity Linden: and i have to step away from being a linden
  • [10:59] Zha Ewry: (I'm going to get to be the pesky person who's not biased) to throw tomatos in SF
  • [10:59] Milele Demozay: Doesn't have to? No, but can -- it's considered polite to suggest new wording, compared to just complaining
  • [10:59] Morgaine Dinova: The way I *expected* it to work, is that one or other co-chair would see a consensus being formed, and then post up a new draft. But it hasn't happened.
  • [10:59] Infinity Linden: so my objective is to get morgaine's input so she doesn't say "she's being partisian"
  • [10:59] Infinity Linden: so
  • [10:59] Infinity Linden: i apologize for any past statements that sounded like i was being so much of a partisan
  • [10:59] Zha Ewry: What's problematic, is when we have very non disjoint proposals
  • [10:59] Zha Ewry: ie. "Lets just push LLSD into informatoin"
  • [11:00] Infinity Linden: i don't think i did a good job of explaining why we think it's important for LLSD to be a standards track document
  • [11:00] Zha Ewry: vs "Lets do LLSD as a draft RFC" for eample
  • [11:00] Gareth Ellison: i'm going to have to leave early here
  • [11:00] Gareth Ellison: bye all
  • [11:00] Infinity Linden: and for that i apologize, morgaine
  • [11:00] Infinity Linden: cheers gareth
  • [11:00] Zha Ewry: it's 2:00 that is our normal "ground to death" time
  • [11:00] Rex Cronon: tc
  • [11:00] Elric Ember: tc
  • [11:00] Tammy Nowotny: cyas Gareth
  • [11:00] Tammy Nowotny: Thanks Zha for having us over
  • [11:00] Zha Ewry: 90 minutes is about enough to drain most of us to death
  • [11:00] Infinity Linden: and it's always 5:30 somewhere
  • [11:01] Goldie Katsu: lol
  • [11:01] Goldie Katsu: we have micro timezones?
  • [11:01] Zha Ewry: Lisa.Mielele, thanks for coming by, incredibly useful
  • [11:01] Latha Serevi: Comments on Zha's screed go to the mailing list? (I dread having to wade thru the responses, but...)
  • [11:01] Zha Ewry: Please, or to me, if you want
  • [11:01] Goldie Katsu: Yes Milele, it was helpful.
  • [11:01] Zha Ewry: I'll consolidate and re-send shortly
  • [11:02] Zha Ewry: And..Infinity, yeah, I think we need somre basic "We want X becuase Y" stuff in the discussion
  • [11:02] Infinity Linden: +1 Milele
  • [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: No apologies needed Infi. :-) I just want to see everybody's work getting incorporated (including mine). I don't want the BoF to start with a charter that *unanimously* on the list (including Infinity), everyone acknowledges is heavily biased towards the LL/IBM view.
  • [11:02] Milele Demozay: FYI I updated [4]
  • [11:02] Zha Ewry: I defy you to find anything concrete enough in the screed to acuse of being biased ;-)
  • [11:02] Tammy Nowotny: some places are half an hour off from the neighboring time zones, Goldie... e.g., Newfoundland and the 2 central states in Australia.
  • [11:03] Milele Demozay: The Charter revisions will go on well after this first BOF, I am quite certain
  • [11:03] Tammy Nowotny: I didn;'t think you were too parysan Infinity
  • [11:03] Infinity Linden: right. but i think when we proposed it, we really were thinking... "hey... here's protocol (OGP) that's being used in a couple of places.. sure would be nice to have it standardized."
  • [11:03] Milele Demozay: of course the more progress we can make before, the better
  • [11:03] Zha Ewry: And.. seriously, what I want is to get a broad superset of people's needs, which includes what Linden and various players are going to do
  • [11:03] Infinity Linden: we weren't really thinking the discussion would turn to "how do i use my SL credential to log into WoW"
  • [11:04] Zha Ewry: No, but you probably have to be asking 'How to I do presence between Wow, SL, Olive and QWAQ?"
  • [11:04] Tammy Nowotny: I see two typos in the names on the page..
  • [11:04] Milele Demozay: I've always wanted cross-VW presence! -- personal note
  • [11:04] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
  • [11:04] Elric Ember: tc
  • [11:04] Rex Cronon: have fun:)
  • [11:05] Goldie Katsu: Thanks and bye all
  • [11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: it's not a rebuke. Infinity merely explained how the draft charter came about, very natural --- a pump primer. :-)
  • [11:05] Zha Ewry: I'm not feelingf rebuked
  • [11:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, cool :-)
  • [11:05] Zha Ewry: I have been on the web since befofre it was a web. I have rhino hide for skin
  • [11:05] Infinity Linden: i'll rebuke you later
  • [11:05] Yann Dufaux: its very interesting infinity :))
  • [11:05] Goldie Katsu: Is that better than being rebaked?
  • [11:05] Infinity Linden: so.. go do something fun that i can rebuke you for!
  • [11:06] Tammy Nowotny: OK, Infinity, I will do that
  • [11:06] Asterion Coen:  :)
  • [11:06] Infinity Linden: hola Mlele
  • [11:06] Infinity Linden: thanks for coming out
  • [11:06] Yann Dufaux: ty for you nice meet to you groups :)
  • [11:06] Yann Dufaux: its my first time and i like:)
  • [11:07] Asterion Coen: next time i will rezz a milk bottle for you too yann :)
  • [11:07] Yann Dufaux: LOL
  • [11:07] Yann Dufaux: rez me an bear with bottle of milk :P
  • [11:08] Milele Demozay: I should go now -- my companies quarterly report is ongoing
  • [11:08] Asterion Coen: nah, the beer is when you will come for the 100th time
  • [11:08] Infinity Linden: kk
  • [11:08] Milele Demozay: nice to meet everybody
  • [11:08] Infinity Linden: have a good one
  • [11:08] Wyn Galbraith: /needs to make coffee and idels
  • [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: Bye Milele :-)
  • [11:08] Yann Dufaux: have a nice day infinity :)
  • [11:08] Asterion Coen: have fun milele
  • [11:08] Wyn Galbraith: idles too
  • [11:08] Morgaine Dinova: See you Infinity :-)
  • [11:08] Tammy Nowotny: have fun crunching the umbers... and remember every company's numbers are bad this quarter
  • [11:08] Yann Dufaux: hmmmmm, coffee and jira this is the best:)
  • [11:09] Asterion Coen: have fun infinity
  • [11:09] Asterion Coen: and have fun wyn
  • [11:09] Saijanai Kuhn: so if/when we reach a stopping point, lemme know and I'll cut the transcript off
  • [11:10] Zha Ewry: Now is good