Beta Server Office Hours/Minutes/2014-07-31

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[15:01] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell): Hello, Simon.
[15:01] Simon Linden: Hello everyone
[15:02] Whirly Fizzle: Heya Simon
[15:02] GEE McAuley: Hi Simon
[15:02] Simon Linden: I've been scrambling to get our group chat test together, but I think I'm almost ready
[15:03] Margithe: ...why does Whirly and Alexa look the same...
[15:03] GEE McAuley: I Timed Builders Brewery lag about an hour ago. 5mins and 27 seconds
[15:03] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): They've cloned
[15:03] Simon Linden: ouch
[15:03] Simon Linden: how many are in that group?
[15:04] Margithe: isn't that like one of the biggest groups?
[15:04] GEE McAuley: Not sure but they have been around for many years
[15:04] Margithe: 24797
[15:04] Whirly Fizzle: I can't remember. At least 30k
[15:04] Whirly Fizzle: Probably more
[15:04] Margithe: thats how big the group is.
[15:04] Margithe: 24797
[15:04] GEE McAuley: That's huge
[15:05] Lucia Nightfire: back
[15:05] Simon Linden: Hmm, that's probably a couple of hundred online at once
[15:05] Margithe: it's huge because it's very useful.
[15:05] Lucia Nightfire: and tired as hell too, but still showed up, lol
[15:05] Margithe: The problem is though, the most useful groups ARE huge
[15:05] Simon Linden: There's a reason they get popular :)
[15:05] GEE McAuley: Hi Oz Need to rezz you out a recliner
[15:06] Oz Linden: I'm fine :-)
[15:06] Oz Linden is on his couch in RL
[15:07] Lucia Nightfire: MUST BE NICE
[15:07] Lucia Nightfire: heh
[15:07] GEE McAuley: with your feet up...
[15:07] Couple Dance Ball (Heart Shaped): Ready.
[15:07] Lucia Nightfire: I want a view of a lake too, no fair
[15:07] GEE McAuley: I can get the hose out and flood the front yard.
[15:08] Lucia Nightfire: dogs on teh lawn again?
[15:08] Lucia Nightfire: lol
[15:08] Simon Linden: I don't have any annoucements or news this week, so please ask questions or bring up any topics you have
[15:09] GEE McAuley: By the way BUG-6736 Is getting a following.
[15:09] Whirly Fizzle: Are there any regions on Aditi still running on a pre-AIS3 server version? Roller-test 1 got updated >.< I need to test something on pre-AIS3.
[15:10] Simon Linden: you will get some really funky update issues if the link size is larger
[15:10] Simon Linden: as soon as it gets close to your draw distance, things go bad
[15:10] Simon Linden: as in ... you stumble against something you can see
[15:10] Simon Linden: can't see, sorry
[15:10] GEE McAuley: At 64 m ?
[15:10] Simon Linden: yes
[15:11] Simon Linden: that's close to a low draw distance, right?
[15:11] Lucia Nightfire: I noticed a selection bug/gripe with multi selection and one prim being out of interest range on rez, lol
[15:11] Lucia Nightfire: you deselect everything by clicking on something else then if you pull your cam back you magically select stuff that was otu of your interest range
[15:11] Margithe: things already get funky with a 32-64 draw range anyways.
[15:12] Simon Linden: yeah, that's the kind of thing that can get confusing ... you won't see what you expect because the root might be farther away than your draw distance
[15:12] GEE McAuley: It should be withing the draw distance. I know that it works on the other simulators such as Inworlds and Opensim with the TPVers
[15:12] Margithe: oh, draw distance is counted to root? I didn't know...
[15:12] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, out of interest/draw range roots and long link distances cause stuff to drop rendering, heh
[15:13] Simon Linden: are you actually selecting those, Lucia, or is the viewer confused and drawing them selected?  If they really are selected, you could move them
[15:14] Lucia Nightfire: they become reselected once they go back into your interest range, its mainyl witha 64m draw and rezzing a coalesced object that covers 64m of height
[15:14] Simon Linden: That said, I understand the builder desire to make larger parts ... but those limits are there because it can conflict with the interest list logic about your updates
[15:15] GEE McAuley: Is there anyway of running a test on the Beta grid to see if there are any issues with setting the link to 64 instead of 54?
[15:15] Lucia Nightfire: it may just be an edge case with me, though
[15:15] Margithe: I wonder if the effects wouldn't be minimal if the range was raised to 96.
[15:15] Simon Linden: and that does make it a lot more complicated to make a large build, or package an object like that and rez it
[15:16] GEE McAuley: Packaging the prims would be much easier without the limit>
[15:16] Lucia Nightfire: I was removing scripts, then was moving my cam up and becan selecting something else than what I had selected before I moved the came
[15:16] Lucia Nightfire: *cam
[15:16] Lucia Nightfire: you can have teh same thing happen if you select something while it moves out of your interest range, esp vertically
[15:17] Simon Linden: That makes sense
[15:17] Lucia Nightfire: edge case probably, heh
[15:18] Lucia Nightfire: the answer is don't use a dd lower than the size or what you're working on
[15:18] Lucia Nightfire: on rez
[15:18] Lucia Nightfire: while in edit mode
[15:19] Simon Linden: I think that applies to situations other than editing ... it really gets messy with the updates and so it's just likely to confuse people
[15:20] Simon Linden: on a different note, if you want to help out later with the group chat test, please join groups "Group Chat Chat" and "Group Chat Test"
[15:20] Simon Linden: and this is a known bug, but as a new member you have to open the chat session manually to join it
[15:20] Lucia Nightfire: let me get my block of text c/p'd
[15:20] Whirly Fizzle: Group Chat Chat & Group Chat Test
[15:21] Simon Linden: Thanks again, Whirly
[15:21] Whirly Fizzle: You guys need that feature :P
[15:21] Simon Linden: send Oz the patch, he'll merge in anything :P
[15:21] Whirly Fizzle: hahaha. The dev who added it needs to do that though
[15:22] Simon Linden: I know
[15:22] Margithe: umm... i can't join the groups... or does it just update slow...
[15:22] GEE McAuley: slow
[15:23] Margithe: ok, because it doesn't show up in the list of groups i belong to
[15:23] Simon Linden: I've been tracking that one down ... it's really an odd one where opening the group is very slow or times out
[15:23] Simon Linden: and then can be immediate the next time you try
[15:23] GEE McAuley: Hasn't registered here yet
[15:23] Margithe: hmmm...
[15:24] Margithe: still nothing.
[15:24] Melvin Starbrook: it doesnt update for me either.. but maybe later :)
[15:24] Simon Linden: from what I can tell the chat server isn't getiting the messages ... so somewhere between the viewer, simulator and chat server it gets lost
[15:24] Margithe: what does? The group join?
[15:24] Simon Linden: The newest code is not about the chat messaging ... that should be the same as before
[15:25] Margithe: well, i joined both groups, twice. And i'm still not in them.
[15:26] Lucia Nightfire: third times the charm
[15:26] Melvin Starbrook: think the grouplist on the beta grid is very outdated.. im still in groups which dont excists for years here too
[15:26] Margithe: [15:26] Lucia Nightfire: third times the charm
[15:26] Second Life: You have been added to the group.
[15:26] Margithe: still nada...
[15:27] Lucia Nightfire: what viewer?
[15:27] Margithe: firestorm.
[15:28] Duckie Dickins: I was already a member...had no problem opening them.
[15:28] Melvin Starbrook: singularity here
[15:30] Margithe: alright.
[15:30] Margithe: now i'm in the groups. Must have been a hiccup.
[15:31] Simon Linden: so that worked with the re-log ... joining and opening seems to be problematic sometimes
[15:32] Duckie Dickins: Hi Baker
[15:33] Melvin Starbrook: hihi in one now :))
[15:36] Simon Linden: I've explained this before but the majority of the load on our chat servers isn't actually the chat messages - it's updates about who is in the list or not
[15:37] Margithe: So people entering and exiting are the ones causing the chatlag?
[15:37] Melvin Starbrook: during our shows we use irc in stead of group msg's.. in some emerald builds irc was build in the viewer which worked great
[15:37] Simon Linden: The current code here is delaying sending those updates ... so the member list is a bit slow.  It's configurable so I have it turned up higher than it would be when released
[15:38] Simon Linden: yes Margithe ... and its interesting to calculate the effect.    Imagine a popular group with, say 120 people online
[15:39] Simon Linden: let's guess the average online time is an hour ... and that number varies widely, as there are a LOT of people that are connected for only a minute or two, maybe just checking IMs, see who's online, or trying to fix something
[15:40] Margithe: Hmmm.. i have a suggestion then. An opt-in and opt-out from ALL group chats on login.
[15:40] Simon Linden: but with 120 people ... that's very roughly an update every 30 seconds, sent to the whole group
[15:40] Simon Linden: yes, we're considering some feature and functional changes like that in the future
[15:41] Margithe: I mean, there is no reason to get hammered with group chats when you come online to check the messages before they get capped.
[15:41] Simon Linden: but the first step is taming the large groups with hundreds ... and I've seen some with over 600 at once
[15:41] Whirly Fizzle: Does official not have the option to disable all group chats? I forget.....
[15:41] Oz Linden: as a solution, that has the downside that it would require a large percentage of users to change what is now the default behavior... not something that's very easy to make happen
[15:41] Duckie Dickins: I generally log in and open all of the group chats I want to get messages from....have always done that since them popping open on their own was never reliable
[15:41] Margithe: it could be like a form of Busy mode, you turn group chat on when you got time for it,
[15:42] Whirly Fizzle: I usually have "Diable all group chats" enabled & I just open the ones I want, which by passes that setting till you relog.
[15:43] Simon Linden: Some groups behave a lot differently than others too ... like the large shopping ones that are annoucements only.   I dont' see a lot of reason for you to know who's online and in that, unless you're a moderator, perhaps
[15:43] Margithe: i would like that to be a button by DD range or similar ;)
[15:43] Simon Linden: That's a lot different than a large social one
[15:44] Margithe: Lots of groups are there for all other group functions (like land sharing) and not for the chat
[15:44] Oz Linden muses that we don't have a dd control...
[15:44] Simon Linden: So one last time ... please close and re-open the Group Chat Chat and Group Chat Test groups a few times, say "hi" (short is good) and I'm going to watch the logs and member lis
[15:44] Simon Linden: list
[15:44] GEE McAuley: gth2000
[15:44] Oz Linden has to go feed dogs...
[15:44] Oz Linden: bye all
[15:44] Simon Linden: Bye Oz
[15:45] Lucia Nightfire: I want dogs to feeed, no fair
[15:45] Margithe: i would like some dog, too. Spicy chinese.
[15:47] Simon Linden: ok thanks ... I think that's enough for now
[15:47] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): hi
[15:48] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm anyone else on FS notice they were getting group chat in console after closing the chat - I mean for chat you didn't see at all in the group chat window.?
[15:48] Jenna Felton: hello all
[15:48] Simon Linden: That should give me some logs to look at - did anyone have a lot of trouble re-opening chat windows?
[15:48] Jenna Felton: ah
[15:49] Melvin Starbrook: nope
[15:49] Simon Linden: that's odd, Whirly - so the text went to the wrong panel?
[15:49] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell): no, it is smooth.
[15:49] Whirly Fizzle: Im not sure....
[15:49] Margithe: after closing the chat window?
[15:49] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): nope open just fine
[15:49] Margithe: oooh wait
[15:49] Margithe: it doesn't update that you are quite gone yet
[15:50] Margithe: and then you get chat anyways?
[15:50] Margithe: and since the window for it is closed, you get it somewhere else?
[15:50] Whirly Fizzle: Yes. After closing the chat window, I was seeing group chat going to console. maybe its just because I was opening and closing the window quickly.
[15:50] Simon Linden: If someone leaves, it should take 10 seconds or so to update in your viewer
[15:50] Lucia Nightfire: do you have that setting checked too in prefs?
[15:50] Whirly Fizzle: Yep
[15:50] Lucia Nightfire: I don't
[15:50] Simon Linden: watch "Group Chat Test" member list now ... I'll leave it soon
[15:50] Lucia Nightfire: didn't get that bug\
[15:51] Simon Linden: like now...
[15:51] Simon Linden: I'm out
[15:51] Whirly Fizzle: Still showing
[15:51] Whirly Fizzle: Gone
[15:51] Simon Linden: right - that's the delay
[15:52] Lucia Nightfire: when can we get that list sorted by name, lol
[15:52] Jenna Felton: I beleive my group chats opened at this sim after i teleported here, although i logged into aditi quater minute earlier at other sim
[15:52] Margithe: i never saw you in, i opened the chat between You leaving and whirly still seeing you
[15:52] Lucia Nightfire: chatter list I mean
[15:52] Simon Linden: the viewer, at least the LL one, has it's own code that won't update that list if you seem to be using it (clicking on someone).  I think that's so you can read it and it doesn't update and shift around
[15:53] Simon Linden: The plan is for this to be applied on a sliding scale to large groups ... they're the ones with the most people coming and going as well as the most getting the updates
[15:55] Simon Linden: In any case, the code is still a bit rough but I hope to clean things up in a few weeks.  I'll be traveling and taking some vacation so it won't be right away
[15:55] Whirly Fizzle: Does displaying the mini profile icons in the chatters list cause extra strain?
[15:56] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Sometimes it's good to let the code lie fallow in your brain for a while.
[15:56] Simon Linden: Your viewer has to go fetch all those icons, Whirly - so yes, that adds up on a big group
[15:56] Jenna Felton: but not for long
[15:57] Jenna Felton: after a few weeks i forget what i have programmed and i have to learn my own code
[15:57] Simon Linden: Yeah, we'll see what i remember when I get back
[15:57] Margithe: then it's not commented enough ;)
[15:58] Jenna Felton: thats is Margithe
[15:58] Jenna Felton: :)
[15:58] Simon Linden: I think that's it for me ... thank you all for coming this week and helping with the test
[15:58] Margithe: 30% code, 70% ramblings about the code XD
[15:59] Whirly Fizzle: Can I just ask before the meeting ends, are there any reguions on Aditi running on a pre-AIS3 server version? Roller-test 1 was supposed to be left on pre-AIS3 but its been updated.
[15:59] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell): Thank you, Simon.
[15:59] Margithe: Thanks for the meeting!
[15:59] Nal (nalates.urriah): Thanks Lindens
[15:59] Simon Linden: If you need one, Whily, I can disable it on a region
[15:59] Whirly Fizzle: Yes please!
[15:59] Simon Linden: Whirly*
[15:59] Duckie Dickins: code is not complete if there's not at least one paragraph about running out of caffenated beverages
[15:59] Whirly Fizzle: Wanted to check some behaviour changes because I think its new since AIS3
[15:59] Jenna Felton: Thank you Simon and a good holiday too :)
[16:00] Melvin Starbrook: have fun :)
[16:00] Simon Linden: ok ... give me a minute and I'll see if I can adjust Roller-test1
[16:00] Lucia Nightfire: that anything to do with what I was goign on about the other day, Whirls?
[16:00] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks
[16:00] Whirly Fizzle: Yep Lucia
[16:00] Lucia Nightfire: ah
[16:00] Inara Breen: Have a good vacation, Simon
[16:00] Duckie Dickins: I wonder if any of the linden commits say "I ran out of coffee...no more code from this point..."
[16:00] Whirly Fizzle: Plus 2 BUG issues that came in about the same sort of problem too
[16:00] Lucia Nightfire: glad I could help, he
[16:01] Baker Linden: thanks for coming everyone! HAve a fantastic weekend!
[16:01] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks Lindens
[16:02] Melvin Starbrook: hihi thank you :)))
[16:02] Jenna Felton: Thanks and have a good weekend. Lindens and All :)
[16:02] Caleb Linden: ciao!
[16:02] Inara Breen: Ciao, all
[16:05] Whirly Fizzle: Hmm when Duckie left the region I saw him leave the chatters list immediately btw, there was no delay
[16:06] Simon Linden: I think these groups are now small enough so there's no dealy
[16:06] Simon Linden: delay
[16:06] [aR] Drinkwater Fountain Venice Beach v0.1: Hello, Avatar!
[16:06] Whirly Fizzle: ahhh
[16:06] Simon Linden: try roller-test1 now ... AIS3 should be off
[16:06] Whirly Fizzle: Thank you :)
[16:07] Simon Linden: How long do you need it like that?  I'd like to revert it when you're done
[16:07] Whirly Fizzle: Oh hmmm 20 mins max?
[16:07] Whirly Fizzle: Ill go check now
[16:08] Simon Linden: ok, I can leave it like that for a bit - just send me an IM on the main grid when you're done
[16:08] Simon Linden: or here if I'm still one
[16:08] Simon Linden: on
[16:08] Simon Linden: wow, today is typo day
[16:09] Jenna Felton: mine is everyday a typo day
[16:09] GEE McAuley: Well the chat test looks good here. If I placed anything like my last few Shakespeare lines from Hamlet they would have taken forever or get dumped
[16:09] Jenna Felton: and i stil receive messages in the groups :)
[16:11] GEE McAuley: I think a big test would be the Builders Brewery Group with over 24k members.
[16:12] Jenna Felton: Simon, can you know how small is an average pardell in SL grid?
[16:12] Zenith Subchair final p whispers: Hi GEE McAuley! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[16:12] Simon Linden: yes - and that would be on the main grid, so we'd find out pretty quickly if it helped or not
[16:13] GEE McAuley: when will this be rolled out?
[16:13] Simon Linden: I don't understand your question, Jenna - pardell?
[16:14] Jenna Felton: i am interested in how large is one size of an average parcel
[16:14] Jenna Felton: 16m or 8m or so
[16:14] Jenna Felton: or the most parcels are 64m long, this number
[16:15] Simon Linden: GEE - I'm not sure.  Given vacation schedules and the testing needed, it won't be until near the end of August at best
[16:15] Jenna Felton: not sure if you just have to look at some windows to know .)
[16:15] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell): See you!
[16:15] Simon Linden: I don't know the average size, sorry
[16:15] Jenna Felton: ok, no problem
[16:16] GEE McAuley: Simon, How hard would it be to run a test within the beta grid on the linking issue to see if it would disrupt anything?
[16:17] GEE McAuley: If it is possible
[16:18] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, lets crank it up to 512m link cap
[16:18] Lucia Nightfire: can't hurt having a region that allows that on adidit
[16:18] kyleetehkitty: That would be fun
[16:19] Lucia Nightfire: and also 512 link cap, heh
[16:19] GEE McAuley: lol at least 96m
[16:19] Simon Linden: then you guys would all have inventories full of impossible-to-link objects :)
[16:19] GEE McAuley: 64m may work though.
[16:19] Lucia Nightfire: heres a 512 link linkset btw
[16:19] Jenna Felton: can you link more than 256 prims?
[16:19] Zenith Subchair final p whispers: Hi Melvin Starbrook! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[16:20] Lucia Nightfire: you can't do it traditionally, no
[16:20] Jenna Felton: ah ok
[16:20] GEE McAuley: Well I think the 256 is fine it is the limitation of linking distance that is a bit short compaired to a 64m prim
[16:21] Simon Linden: I'll add that to our feature requests but I'm not optimistic about it ... we know it causes some issues already
[16:21] Simon Linden: Im' heading off - thanks again