Community Tools User Group/10-Feb-2011

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This is the chat log from the Community Tools User Group meeting of 2/10/2011.

[13:02] Cummere Mayo: besides... come on nathan you know me... do you really want to get me riled BEFORE the meeting starts
[13:02] Lexie: We will get started in just a couple minutes
[13:02] Lexie: Hi to everyone!
[13:02] Cummere Mayo: WB lexie
[13:02] Amanda Linden: hey all!
[13:02] Ţסř๔ẹ: Hi Lexie
[13:02] draconis.neurocam: Salutations
[13:02] Fine Caliber: Hello
[13:02] Adamburp Adamczyk: haloaha
[13:02] Lexie: ty
[13:03] Lexie: Hi Amanda
[13:03] Cummere Mayo: amanda nice choice of group tags... kinda intresting since LL was compared to him in three blogs ive read so far today
[13:03] Fine Caliber: Thats... a bit drastic XD
[13:03] Adamburp AdamczykAdamburp Adamczyk points to his own title
[13:03] Cummere Mayo: hello raymond
[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk: daren't use
[13:04] Adamburp Adamczyk: ** UNDERPANTS! **
[13:04] Raymond Linden: Hi All
[13:04] Lexie: Hi Raymond
[13:04] Adamburp Adamczyk: hi raymond
[13:04] Cummere Mayo: so is there an agenda or is it open topic?
[13:04] Raymond Linden: Hi Amanda! Is there an Agenda for today?
[13:04] Amanda Linden: cummere--what tag are you referring to?
[13:04] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:04] Qie: unfortunately I can only be here for the first half of the hour, so... is there any way of finding out more about the forums replacement? Assuming it's not Jive?
[13:05] Cummere Mayo: down with mubarak
[13:05] Adamburp AdamczykAdamburp Adamczyk is shocked with amanada - that word is "trousers" in swahili
[13:05] Nathan Adored: And what is this about Jira dropping the ability for us to VOTE in a month? oO
[13:05] Amanda Linden: well, i'm virtually standing with the folks in Tahrir Square right now.
[13:05] Amanda Linden: ha adamburb
[13:05] Amanda Linden: p
[13:05] Cummere MayoCummere Mayo shrugs. I agree with the tag...
[13:06] Cummere Mayo: just find it ironic since LL was compared to him in three blogs today...
[13:06] Cummere Mayo: anyways is there an agenda I can post to?
[13:06] Adamburp AdamczykAdamburp Adamczyk hopes this won;t be a political discussion here
[13:06] Amanda Linden: nope
[13:07] Lexie: What was the question about the blogs?
[13:07] Lexie: or forums
[13:07] Nathan Adored: RL pollyticks or LL pollyticks? Oo
[13:07] Qie: I understand there's a new platform, to replace Jive?
[13:07] Qie: is there a way to learn more about it?
[13:07] Amanda Linden: we're jus t starting up this group, so no agenda, i don't think.
[13:07] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:07] Adamburp Adamczyk: ll polyblurbs is always fine
[13:07] Cummere Mayo: good... then can i start by asking why the new policy of taking all criticism against LL as flaming?
[13:08] Amanda Linden: cummere--just posted a response in the blog.
[13:08] Amanda Linden: think that should answer your question.
[13:08] Amanda Linden: And for those that are worried about expressing opinions on the Blogs/Forums, please do! We want to host a lively dialogue filled with meaty, thoughtful discussions. We welcome dissenting opinions! The guidelines are in place so that we can all maintain a constructive dialogue on the issues that we all most care about. You might notice that I have left in place nearly every comment on this blog--both positive and negative--and only removed one that devolved into name calling--clearly in violation of our Community Participation Guidelines. Regardless of how you feel about a particular issue, product feature, or policy, its important that we communicate with respect and courtesy.
[13:08] Adamburp Adamczyk: expressing opionions is one thing, people actualyl taking note is another
[13:08] Amanda Linden: hey ann--glad you're here.
[13:08] Suella EmberSuella Ember agrees - criticism is good. rudeness isn't :)
[13:08] Amanda Linden: exactly.
[13:08] Nathan Adored: Yeah, I saw something about that online, too. Someone posted to the blogorrum correcting blatantly incorrect info on some part of the SL technology, and THOSE posts got file13d
[13:08] Amanda Linden: hey suelle!
[13:08] Amanda Linden: a
[13:09] Amanda Linden: sorry, typing off today.
[13:09] Cummere Mayo: then would you kindly clarify the new guidelines to reflect that?
[13:09] Adamburp AdamczykAdamburp Adamczyk noticed with "new" tickets, no way to "express an opinion" with the bad levels of support
[13:09] Suella Ember: lol - hye Amanda :)
[13:09] Amanda Linden: do you guys want to stay in chat or do you want to use voice?
[13:09] Cummere Mayo: voice rules out deaf and mute
[13:09] Suella Ember: they do reflect that Cummere - nowhere does it say you'll get banned for criticism form what i can see!
[13:09] Nathan Adored: chat! chat! voice can't be transcripted!
[13:09] Adamburp AdamczykAdamburp Adamczyk likes text
[13:09] Cummere Mayo: also makes transcribing impposible
[13:09] Qie: Actually, I think the guidelines are fine... it *would* be nice if there were some clear process and criteria for circumstances that lead to in-world suspensions.
[13:09] Amanda Linden: kk, we'll stay in chat.
[13:10] Amanda Linden: we will not do inworld suspensions based on the behavior in the blogs/forums.
[13:10] Amanda Linden: also clarified that.
[13:10] Amanda Linden: posted to the comments.
[13:10] Cummere Mayo: Suella, Ive seen LL strike down criticisms before of flaming...
[13:10] Qie: oh, that's an important change! thanks, Amanda (and sorry I hadn't caught up)
[13:10] Adamburp Adamczyk: full stop you won;t? or dependign on circumstances?
[13:10] Amanda Linden: WolfBaginski/Master/Han/Setekh/Arkady/Mike and others that had questions about bans - As the Community Participation Guidelines say, we moderate at our discretion. This policy only applies to the community platform (not inworld) and other communication channels outlined specifically in the policy. However, you will receive warnings before a ban from the Community Platform is in place. A community platform ban may be for a day, week, month, or longer--depending on how many offenses have been committed. I will share more details regarding our moderation procedure when the new platform is launched next month. Hope this answers your question.
[13:10] Amanda Linden: WolfBaginski/Master/Han/Setekh/Arkady/Mike and others that had questions about bans - As the Community Participation Guidelines say, we moderate at our discretion. This policy only applies to the community platform (not inworld) and other communication channels outlined specifically in the policy. However, you will receive warnings before a ban from the Community Platform is in place. A community platform ban may be for a day, week, month, or longer--depending on how many offenses have been committed. I will share more details regarding our moderation procedure when the new platform is launched next month. Hope this answers your question.
[13:10] Rand: howdy all...sorry i'm late!
[13:10] Adamburp Adamczyk: supposing we ar'd soembody for racist commnets?
[13:10] Suella Ember: But I hope you will removing posting privelages *if and where* necessary for repeated profanity / harassment etc etc
[13:11] Amanda Linden: yes, suelle.
[13:11] Amanda Linden: a
[13:11] Amanda Linden: jeez, suella
[13:11] Amanda Linden: sorry, i just want to put an e at the end of your name.
[13:11] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:11] Cummere Mayo: also im assuming the occasiona damn or hell will NOT lead to suspensions?
[13:11] Amanda Linden: racist comments will merit a warning/ban from the community plaform.
[13:11] Suella Ember: hehehe - its ok you can call me suelle :)
[13:12] Adamburp Adamczyk: thansk suelle, you can call me mavis
[13:12] Amanda Linden: cummere--we'll take it on a case by case basis.
[13:12] Suella Ember: HA!
[13:12] draconis.neurocam: was there going to be a fix for single named accounts regarding the wiki
[13:12] Amanda Linden: we will have moderators in the community platform 7 days a week and will work through the items that are flagged.
[13:12] Amanda Linden: ah, that's a Rand question.
[13:12] Adamburp Adamczyk: i'd liek to know why there are no options to raise a complaint ticket anymore
[13:12] Amanda Linden: Rand, can you address draconis' question?
[13:13] Rand: draconis: we are working on it, but i can't give you a date yet....
[13:13] draconis.neurocamdraconis.neurocam nods
[13:13] Amanda Linden: adamburp, do you mean an abuse report?
[13:13] Adamburp Adamczyk: no amanda
[13:13] Nathan Adored: What about allegations like this one? http://elfclanvr.grouply.com/message/1284
[13:14] Cummere Mayo: yes moderators we are not allowed to question and who operate at thier discrussion with secret guidelines we dont know :-/ sorry if im not a big fan of allowing unchecked moderation
[13:14] Lexie: service complaint?
[13:14] Adamburp Adamczyk: i mean if i want to complain to linden labs, there is NO option to raise a service complaint via the ticket system
[13:14] Adamburp Adamczyk: nor, i will add, one to say "hey well doen guys"
[13:14] Amanda Linden: regarding open space, the right place to discuss will be the land user group--still forming.
[13:15] Cummere Mayo: nathans link is a perfect example of why we SHOULD be allowed to question the mods and call them on it
[13:15] Amanda Linden: and it's great to have a discussion int he forums. not sure who was deleting the posts. but if became a flame war, then it will be removed.
[13:15] Cummere Mayo: especially if they continue to act how they have been
[13:15] Adamburp Adamczyk: yes lexie, a service complaint :(
[13:15] Cummere Mayo: oh they left ALL the flames amanda
[13:15] Cummere Mayo: and the personal infomation disclosed
[13:15] Amanda Linden: not sure about this one...need to investigate. thanks for flagging.
[13:16] Adamburp Adamczyk: we, your paying customers, seem to have no official way of raising them
[13:16] Cummere Mayo: they deleted ANYTHING that criticized LL
[13:16] Amanda Linden: gimme a day to invesetigate this one. wasn't aware.
[13:16] Adamburp Adamczyk: other than griping in the forums
[13:16] Amanda Linden: but very glad you brought to my attention.
[13:16] draconis.neurocam: Is there any attention being given to the highlighting of the new constants, and functions that have been added to the scripting language for wiki examples?
[13:16] Cummere Mayo: which is why the complete bit about questioning mods needs taken out of the new guidelines and instead a policy for reporting bad moderating put in place isntead
[13:16] Suella Ember: All i want to see from moderation is it being proactive rather than reactive. That would be my only current criticsm - it seems to react to post and pull them but not always take into account context and history. I just want us all to be able to have constructive dialogue (that can include criticsm and even heated debate) but an end to the nonsense of trolling and harassment etc
[13:16] Qie: it would be a huge boon to the credibility of discussion moderation if reasoning for deletion posts (all but spam) were made explicit. It might help with compliance, too, if folks understood how the rules are interpreted and enforced.
[13:17] Amanda Linden: +1 suella
[13:17] Amanda Linden: and i spelled it right this time.

??? [13:17] Lexie:

[13:17] Suella Ember: :)
[13:17] Nathan Adored: And I suppose semi-related to that is the fact LL decided to remove the ability to VOTE on Jiras.... and look only at Watch on Jiras....... the troble being you can';t tell if someone is Watching a JIRA because they hope the issue mentioned does NOT get implemented or they're Watching the Jira because they DO want the issue mentioned to get implemented.
[13:17] Amanda Linden: qie--the speciifcs are in the community participation guidelines.
[13:17] Cummere Mayo: Amanda, if you want communtiy to work with moderators, please dont set them out to be our enemy from the start by saying "you cant question them"
[13:17] Lexie: good point Qie
[13:18] Nathan Adored: Basically anything that LL feels might.... inconvenience them.... gets circular-filed.
[13:18] Qie: Amanda, it's the difference between statute and case law
[13:18] Amanda Linden: cummere--as i posted, we welcome dissenting opinions.
[13:18] Amanda Linden: just needs to be done respectfully.
[13:18] Cummere Mayo: thats not waht im saying
[13:18] Amanda Linden: tell me more
[13:18] Nathan Adored: ...so they can burry their heads and the sand and hope the issue goes away
[13:18] Ann Otoole: My response to Yoz in respect to votes vs watchers: watchers is as easily falsely influenced as votes.

??? ??? That said, to me, a defect reporting system should not be mixed with a feature request system. A feature request system needs voting. Defects should be triaged and evaluated based on the quality of the documentation and repro steps and then the severity and priorities guide the decision process. Neither votes nor watchers should influence whether or not a severe defect is corrected. And history has demonstrated amply that a severe defect requires no votes or watchers at all for LL to correct it. ??? ??? So I recommend you guys construct a better feature request system. Then there is a different category called customer concerns. Currently there is no persistent communications medium available for concerns.

[13:19] Amanda Linden: you're in a room with several lindens--tell us more...
[13:19] Cummere Mayo: the way you have the rules written, if a moderator rmoves a post that says "the sky is blue" and we post asking why, we can get banned for breaking the standards
[13:19] Adamburp Adamczyk: amanda, you state you (ll) welcome dissenting opinions, but we seem unable to raise our concerns via the ticket system
[13:19] Amanda Linden: ok guys, how about we structure our conversation a bit more.
[13:19] Amanda Linden: let's create an agenda together....
[13:19] Amanda Linden: here's what i'm thinking:
[13:19] Amanda Linden: - moderation/policy
[13:19] Amanda Linden: - Jira
[13:19] Amanda Linden: what else?
[13:19] Cummere Mayo: facebook
[13:20] Amanda Linden: k, facebook
[13:20] Ann Otoole: this new sekret forum platform?
[13:20] Suella Ember: new forums? (if you can say much about them yet?)
[13:20] Cummere Mayo: facebook users hate us being there, and allot of sl users hate facebook
[13:20] Amanda Linden: ha. we can't talk about that too much yet, ann
[13:20] Suella Ember: lol
[13:20] Lexie: soon
[13:20] Fine Caliber: plurk ^_^
[13:20] Ann Otoole: :P
[13:20] Amanda Linden: plurk. good add.
[13:20] Fine Caliber: and web profiles
[13:20] Amanda Linden: web profiles is something that we can't address in this meeting.
[13:20] Fine Caliber: okay.
[13:20] Amanda Linden: suggest you go to the viewer 2 user group.
[13:20] Cummere Mayo: thats social team
[13:20] Amanda Linden: yeah
[13:20] Fine Caliber: yuh will do.
[13:20] draconis.neurocam: i had a question about the wiki in regards to lsl.
[13:20] Cummere Mayo: who wont have a meeting till next month
[13:21] Cummere Mayo: if then
[13:21] Qie: (platform: oh well. Evidently Cerise knows and is investigating. She's usually pretty thorough at these things.)
[13:21] Nathan Adored: Yeah, what the bleep is up with this "Link your in-world activities to Facebook" notion? Facebook and SL are so far appart in they're views on what kinds of accounts should even exist in their respective worlds that trying to connect the two together makes no sense. Twitter, on the toher hand, or plurk, from in-world might make a lot more sense tho
[13:21] Rand: ok draconis i can try to answer your wiki Q
[13:21] Cummere Mayo: nathan thats social team
[13:21] Amanda Linden: AGENDA:

??? - Moderation/Policy ??? - JIRA ??? - Facebook ??? - Plurk

[13:22] Amanda Linden: Sound good?
[13:22] Suella Ember: yep
[13:22] Cummere Mayo: yes
[13:22] Amanda Linden: great.
[13:22] Nathan Adored: kk, I'll go with that agenda.
[13:22] Amanda Linden: so, fire away re: moderation and policy stuff....
[13:22] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:22] Amanda Linden: crickets.
[13:22] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:22] Lexie: haha
[13:23] Cummere Mayo: stating that we cant post questinong why a moderator removed soemthing that seems to not be in contracidtion of the rules or leaves stuff thats blatently violating tos is problematic at best
[13:23] Torben Bailey: with the new forums, will the be subforums in other languages again? And will you still not moderate them?
[13:23] Torben Bailey: *there
[13:23] Cummere Mayo: will scare off new users and old...
[13:23] Amanda Linden: cummere--we moderate at our discretion.
[13:23] Amanda Linden: but you're welcoem to ping me for review.
[13:23] Cummere Mayo: thats the point...
[13:23] Suella Ember: See - personally, I don't think it's a big deal. If everyone just behaces respectfully I honestly think its a non issue. To me the "questioning a mod" stuff is just a standard disclaimer. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Its just to stop all the "Why was i moderated! I demand to know!" stuff
[13:23] Adamburp Adamczyk: policy: support tickets
[13:23] Amanda Linden: so that's your escalation point.
[13:23] Nathan Adored: And yes, there DOES need to be a certain amount of transparency on the moderating of posts. If a post getsremoved that shouldn't have been, there should be negative consequences to the moderator that did it
[13:24] Amanda Linden: agreed nathan.
[13:24] Qie: I just want to reiterate that closing threads with explanation is a good teaching opportunity. It's also transparent, and reduces the sense that there's just no rhyme nor reason behind moderation actions.
[13:24] Cummere Mayo: then instead of sayign you cant question mods, put an escalation policy in place
[13:24] Cummere Mayo: as well as a list of the guidelines that mods have
[13:24] Amanda Linden: we will moderate very carefully and judiciously
[13:24] Cummere Mayo: and a discipline system for mods
[13:24] Nathan Adored: ther also must be ways to make sure someone can't "game the system" by having a buncha friends and alts click on the AR button on a post to get it removed when there's nothing wrong with the post.
[13:24] Cummere Mayo: amanda if i had a dollar for every time ive heard a linden say that....
[13:25] Amanda Linden: believe me, the moderation team has very specific instructions and is aware that that can happen.
[13:25] Cummere Mayo: please post those to the public
[13:25] Adamburp Adamczyk: are the mods lindens or scouts?
[13:25] Amanda Linden: the moderators will be an extension of oru team--LIndens
[13:25] Ann Otoole: aside from commerce and general discussion has any of the actual SL related forums been subject to a need for heavy moderation?Or is it just that the main issue is the GD forum and the way people behave there?
[13:26] Suella Ember: I'd guess its aminly those 2 ann!
[13:26] Suella Ember: mainly!
[13:26] Amanda Linden: we haven't done a good job of moderation to this point. the system is diffucult. you'll see more of that when we launch the new platform.
[13:26] Suella Ember: if for no other reason than they are the most used
[13:26] Qie: which is where 98% of the posting happens, so... not too surprising.
[13:26] Amanda Linden: and, i would love your collective help getting to the right levels of moderation.
[13:26] Amanda Linden: that's what this user gruop is for, in part.
[13:27] Amanda Linden: raymond/lexie, feel free to chime in.
[13:27] Cummere Mayo: amanda i would be willing to help but in exchange I ask that the moderators guidelines be posted so we know what mods are allowed to do and not allowed
[13:27] Suella Ember: As i say - i personally think the right livekl is simply to be proactive. Heated debate ok - criticism - ok , the moment it gets rude, insulting, harassing not ok
[13:27] Suella Ember: simple as that for me
[13:27] Nathan Adored: I've seen way too many posts by ppl outside the LL blogorum saying they don't post on the bloggorum because bad things happen to them there for no reason.
[13:27] Amanda Linden: the policy is based on the mod guidelines--basically the same.
[13:27] Amanda Linden: that's exactly where i see the line, suella
[13:28] Cummere MayoCummere Mayo feels like shes baning her head into the wall
[13:28] Fine Caliber: and they'll continue having discussions outside of LL >_< so still, nonissue.
[13:28] Cummere Mayo: *banging
[13:28] Suella Ember: and ive seen many say they dont post to the sl forums because they fear harssment etc, so its a 2 way strret
[13:28] Amanda Linden: don't hurt your self cummere
[13:28] Ann Otoole: don't call Lindens nasty names and you probably won't get kicked out. Like Og the caveman discovered sticking hand in fire burn!
[13:28] Amanda Linden: ok, we have 30 mins left....last questiosn before we move to jira?
[13:28] Cummere Mayo: even if they are similar amanda sometimes taking 5 seconds to put that somewhere can make a huge differance
[13:29] Adamburp Adamczyk: amanda a suggestion? how about rodvik himself attends some of the meetings? coudl you enquire to thatr?
[13:29] Suella Ember: dont call ANYONE nasty names ann - not just Lindens :)
[13:29] Amanda Linden: will look into it
[13:29] Amanda Linden: adamburp, great idea.
[13:29] Cummere Mayo: k jira?
[13:29] Amanda Linden: yep, let's hit jira next.
[13:29] Fine CaliberFine Caliber nods
[13:29] Qie: (eep... have to run to RL... do hope transcripts will be posted. have fun all!)
[13:29] Lexie: I think once you see the moderation and how the fourms are flowing, you will like it. If you see issues, bring them to this meeting again after the new system has settled in
[13:29] Amanda Linden: welcome daniel!
[13:30] Lexie: forums*
[13:30] Daniel Voyager: hiya :)
[13:30] Amanda Linden: +1 lexie
[13:30] Suella Ember: hi Daniel :)
[13:30] Lexie: Hi Daniel
[13:30] Cummere Mayo: one of the worst moderated of all systems. people routinely leak personal information and even flat out libelous claims there
[13:30] Ann Otoole: well the GD forum is a social place. And it became apparent to me that I am not part of that social circle so my participation has dropped to nil.
[13:30] Cummere Mayo: AND removing the votes is nothing more then a thin masked way to get people to stop using it
[13:31] Amanda Linden: actually, that's not true cummere. we don't see it that way at all.
[13:31] Nathan Adored: Yeah, there is that.
[13:31] Fine Caliber: Well as long as stuff gets assigned, i don't have a problem with it. I thought it did help bring attention to jiras.
[13:31] Amanda Linden: but would love to hear more about why you think that
[13:31] Adamburp Adamczyk: the general impression now, is that ll are going off on a tangent, ignoring waht the REsidents actually need/want to see
[13:31] Cummere Mayo: amanda first do a search of my name in there, so you know im not blowing smoke when i say im active there
[13:31] Ann Otoole: now that it is on topic I will repeat: watchers is as easily falsely influenced as votes.

??? ??? That said, to me, a defect reporting system should not be mixed with a feature request system. A feature request system needs voting. Defects should be triaged and evaluated based on the quality of the documentation and repro steps and then the severity and priorities guide the decision process. Neither votes nor watchers should influence whether or not a severe defect is corrected. And history has demonstrated amply that a severe defect requires no votes or watchers at all for LL to correct it. ??? ??? So I recommend you guys construct a better feature request system. Then there is a different category called customer concerns. Currently there is no persistent communications medium available for concerns.

[13:31] Amanda Linden: i believe you. :)
[13:32] Fine Caliber: I felt that voting zoomed it higher up on the to-do list.
[13:32] Suella Ember: As long as comments to JIRA are read i don't care about the votes - identifying the content and resolution to a JIRA issue is the important thing
[13:32] Amanda Linden: the person who manages jira is not here today, but keep sharing your thoughts and i will make sure she gets the info.
[13:32] Suella Ember: In a sense - ALL jiras should have the same priority at first but the content of the JIRA should then help to identify which can/should be addressed first - thats how i see it
[13:32] Cummere Mayo: then instead of going by watching which will be confusing for us jira volunteers, (cuase we have to watch things to see if people answer nmi and such) just ask the jira software makers to add a vote agasint option... which is why many of the lindens ive talked to say voting isnt a good system
[13:33] Adamburp AdamczykAdamburp Adamczyk mumbles "redzone" - policy on that?
[13:33] Cummere Mayo: we also NEED a policy section
[13:33] Ann Otoole: and if you want your defect triaged then attend the triage meeting and get it on the table. That happens to be how it used to work anyway.
[13:33] Cummere Mayo: because theres litterally no place a resident can discuss policy
[13:33] Cummere Mayo: ann there is no triage
[13:33] Amanda Linden: are you talking land policy?
[13:34] Amanda Linden: or jira policy?
[13:34] Nathan Adored: Trouble is, the meetings may be only during hours when the one or ones who desperately need the change or bugfix implemented can't be there.
[13:34] Cummere Mayo: any kind of policy
[13:34] Lexie: Comments will be read on jiras. Its not all about "watchers".
[13:34] Cummere Mayo: land, jira, governance
[13:34] Nathan Adored: Say, if it's while the person is at work, or in the middle of the night, or something.
[13:34] Suella Ember: yeah but seriously (and not wanting to get into a huge debate) what other company has a system to let you discuss their company policies?! Not many! Thats kinda more for user groups anyway i would have though
[13:34] Suella Ember: policy is not a bug for jira
[13:34] Cummere Mayo: suella actually most companies do
[13:35] Amanda Linden: ok, jira is shifting into policy stuff.
[13:35] Adamburp Adamczyk: amanda - do the G-team still exist or is that the tpv scouts?
[13:35] Amanda Linden: can we focus on jira for now?
[13:35] Amanda Linden: gteam?
[13:35] Adamburp Adamczyk: Governance Team
[13:35] Amanda Linden: ah, right.
[13:35] Cummere Mayo: thats what im saying amanda, jira (or soemwhere) needs a policy project but eh
[13:35] Adamburp Adamczyk: aka former teeple, joppa et al
[13:36] Fine Caliber: I actually still have a hard time with the search, finding the right keywords, running across multiple duplciates, etc etc.
[13:36] Amanda Linden: i'll take that back re: policy.
[13:36] Adamburp Adamczyk: do tehy still exist, or do the scouts do that job now?
[13:36] Amanda Linden: will come back with answer on that next UG.
[13:36] Amanda Linden: i'm not sure--any other lindens knwo the answer?
[13:36] Cummere Mayo: also jira helper status shouldnt be based at all on gteam record but rather by how and what a user does in jira
[13:37] draconis.neurocam: The people who are listed as leaders of different subcatagories of the jira, who are no longer working for LL, will those names change to reflect the current person in charge of the project?
[13:37] Cummere Mayo: i cant mvoe things and yet im one of the people snowstorm relies on to pretriage stuff
[13:37] Raymond Linden: Hey All - Great discussion! I will be able to participate more in future sessions, but need to dash today. . .
[13:37] Lexie: draconis, yes
[13:37] draconis.neurocamdraconis.neurocam nods
[13:37] Amanda Linden: yes draconis--will definitely take that back to the jira team.
[13:37] Adamburp Adamczyk: ray, you got a bear fella?
[13:37] Torben Bailey: bye Raymond
[13:37] Adamburp Adamczyk: too late :)
[13:37] Lexie: he goes quick!

??? [13:38] Lexie:

[13:38] Torben Bailey: yah, being able to move issues would be helpful prety often
[13:38] Lexie: I will follow up on the GTeam question
[13:38] Adamburp Adamczyk: lexie will you replt here or via im to me on that?
[13:38] Cummere Mayo: and im not the only one hampered by the anchient rules still preventing us from getting kicked up to jira helper status
[13:38] Lexie: They do not exist as "the Gteam" but I will get you a better explanation
[13:38] Adamburp Adamczyk: reply*
[13:39] Amanda Linden: great discussion on jira. we'll try it and see how it goes. very open to suggestions on how to make the tool more powerful, particularly for filing bugs, then let's discuss.
[13:39] Lexie: I will reply here Adamburp. Next week
[13:40] Adamburp Adamczyk: fair enough - i will be watching for the clarification
[13:40] Cummere Mayo: k next topic then?
[13:40] Amanda Linden: thanks lexie.
[13:40] Lexie: sure
[13:40] Amanda Linden: facebook is next on the agenda.
[13:40] Amanda Linden: wow--did that get a big response in the blog post.
[13:40] Adamburp Adamczyk: and re rodvik to give us some answers
[13:40] Suella EmberSuella Ember braces for the onslaught! lol
[13:40] Amanda Linden: ha! me too.
[13:40] Lexie: lol
[13:40] Amanda Linden: ok, let me open up by saying this...
[13:40] Fine Caliber: Mm. I always felt SL WAS a social network.
[13:40] Fine Caliber: To have another network for a network is :3
[13:40] Amanda Linden: that facebook and twitter programs are extensions of SL, not a replacement.
[13:41] Amanda Linden: but they are places where our residents live also, and potential new residents, and we would be remiss if we weren't there.
[13:41] Nathan Adored: To me SL is a big 3D chatroom with scenery..... that sometimes has games and RPs in it.... but never really though tof it as a social network.
[13:41] Ann Otoole: i don'tknow anyone in SL that wants SL married to zuckerberg's NSA electronic vacuum cleanr operation that runs without any congressional control or oversight.
[13:41] Cummere Mayo: facebook users that arent sl users dont want us there, facebook as a company states in TOS that facebook named accounts are a direct violation
[13:41] Torben Bailey: gotta run, have a great day everybody
[13:41] Lexie: Bye Torben!
[13:41] Amanda Linden: by torben.
[13:41] Cummere Mayo: theres litterally more fans of groups AGAINST LL then there are fans of the SL page
[13:42] Lexie: Its optional. Its a choice.
[13:42] Daniel Voyager: Has Linden Lab throught of including Plurk? There is a massive Plurk SL userbase... :)
[13:42] Suella Ember: My take on FB - don't like ti won't use it. But its no biggie as long as its not used as the *sole* source of comms etc, which it generally isnt. Just think LL need to be careful of working and say things like "*IF* you want to use Facebook for xyz you can but you don't HAVE to. You can do it here on the blogs, forums, etc etc too!"
[13:42] Amanda Linden: the choice to use these is completely optional.
[13:42] Amanda Linden: and it's not the sole source of news/information/cool happenings.
[13:42] Fine Caliber: My SL outside of SL is split between youtube, flickr, snapzilla (kindof), and Plurk. I already have a profile on SL.
[13:42] Ann Otoole: why is it called a choice when LL places their priority on supporting facebook instead of SL?
[13:42] Cummere Mayo: the point is isntead of focusing where youre not wanted...
[13:42] Nathan Adored: yup. people who created a facebook account with their SL name.... wound up with the acccount closed down because Facebook considered that a fictional character or some such thing, which violaed their TOS
[13:42] Cummere Mayo: you should focus on us.
[13:42] Adamburp Adamczyk: sl are giving priority to aspects that residents don't actually want/need
[13:43] Adamburp Adamczyk: focus on the residents, your Customer base
[13:43] Amanda Linden: how would you suggest that we approach facebook/twitter, etc.?
[13:43] Lexie: We are focused on you. Honestly. FB is not the priority. Thats why we have these user groups. You are the priority and we are here with you.
[13:43] Cummere Mayo: simple... Dont
[13:43] Adamburp Adamczyk: bin them
[13:43] Nathan Adored: plurk and twitter might make more sense, tho
[13:43] Adamburp Adamczyk: tell them to catch the next bus to getouttahere
[13:44] Amanda Linden: lol
[13:44] Daniel Voyager: Amanda, do you have any plans for Plurk?
[13:44] Lexie: hahaha
[13:44] Ann Otoole: you openly say fb is the best place to find SL activities. Why isn't the SL event system the best place?
[13:44] Adamburp Adamczyk: give us straigth answers
[13:44] Fine Caliber: Optional widgets within an SL user's profile. Nothing more. Include widgets or buttons for plurk, Snapzilla, youtube.
[13:44] Adamburp Adamczyk: give us FAR better support
[13:44] Adamburp Adamczyk: give us waht SL was
[13:44] Amanda Linden: we've bandiied the idea around re: plurk. will probably look at it when we hire a new social media marketing manager.
[13:44] Lexie: Ann, that was clarified in the blog comments.
[13:44] Daniel Voyager: ok, thanks
[13:45] Cummere Mayo: Facebook as a company responded to a blogger lately tht they are cosnidering a petition filed to ban official mentions of SL on the system there
[13:45] Amanda Linden: so i'm curious.
[13:45] Amanda Linden: how many people here have facebook and/or twitter accounts?
[13:45] Cummere Mayo: why focus where you arent wanted
[13:45] Ann Otoole: perhaps the blog post needs to be edited to reflect the clarification since people read that and not the comments.
[13:45] Amanda Linden: slap me some yes/no's
[13:45] Adamburp Adamczyk: forget "social media marketing manager"
[13:45] Lexie: point taken Ann!
[13:45] Suella Ember: I have twiitter (and love it) but not facebook (don't like fb)
[13:45] Cummere Mayo: I have a facebook account... thanks to LL it got linked to my sl account
[13:45] Adamburp Adamczyk: hire direct lindens to provide Customer support
[13:45] Cummere Mayo: AGAINST my wishes
[13:45] draconis.neurocam: i never saw the point of facebook, twitter is a means of communication and makes sense
[13:46] Amanda Linden: more folks who have facebook/twitter accounts?
[13:46] Ann Otoole: twitter is not persistent. it is only a right now this minute medium. and they are trying to sell themselves to facebook so twitter has a limited shelf life now.
[13:46] Amanda Linden: yes/no
[13:46] draconis.neurocam: i have a twitter, no facebook
[13:46] Adamburp Adamczyk: instead of 25 minute waits trying to explain to a tpv operator who has no inkling of what they'er doing
[13:46] Adamburp Adamczyk: they're*
[13:46] Suella Ember: Twitter (for me) is much better at getting the news you want by following people you are interested in
[13:46] Amanda Linden: how many folks follow us on twitter @secondlife?
[13:46] Cummere Mayo: not me
[13:47] Suella Ember: I find twitter more about getting links to news sources etc rather than socialising as such
[13:47] Ann Otoole: yea but posting an event when you have no followers is pointless
[13:47] Fine Caliber: i don't have either for my SL account.
[13:47] Cummere Mayo: i deleted my twitter when they sold the archives to the libary of congress
[13:47] Amanda Linden: interesting....
[13:47] Nathan Adored: Yeah, I have several other SL resedents I follow on Twitter
[13:47] Amanda Linden: thanks for sharing.
[13:47] Suella Ember: i follow at @secondlie although i think he's "jumped the shark" a wee bit :)
[13:47] Daniel Voyager: I do.
[13:47] Amanda Linden: jumped hte shark?
[13:47] Chad Haalan: Fonz
[13:47] Nathan Adored: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_the_shark
[13:48] Fine Caliber: honestly, i remember being on plurk first, then everyone plurking 'oh here's my twitter' and then everyone plurking 'oh here's my facebook'. both buzzes died down shortly afterwards.
[13:48] Suella Ember: lol - ummm - google it! hehe Bascially i mean he was really funny for a while but got a bit predictible
[13:48] Lexie: haha yes the Fonz
[13:48] Amanda Linden: good feedback.
[13:48] Nathan Adored: "Jumping the shark is an idiom used to denote when a particular production effort has surpassed its relevance and reached a point of decline in quality that it is incapable of recovering from. It refers specifically to the point in a television program's history where the plot spins off into absurd storylines, unlikely characterizations, and adding or replacing characters. These changes were often the result of efforts to revive interest in a show whose audience had begun to decline.[1][2][3]"
[13:48] Amanda Linden: a little too dry, huh?
[13:48] Ann Otoole: i made a plurk account. stared at the dead screen. never went back. no way to figure it out.
[13:48] Amanda Linden: ha--so did i, years ago
[13:49] Cummere Mayo: look SL is kinda a joke in social networks outside of sl... except on blogspot and plurk
[13:49] Cummere Mayo: and even there theres as many bashers as fans
[13:49] Nathan Adored: I have SL friends on Plurk, and I routinly post to their plurk threads.... but have rarely posted my own plurk threads.
[13:49] Suella Ember: anyway - this will get everyones blood boiling - i read today Twitter might be in early talks with Facebook and Google for a possible sale to them! lol
[13:49] Fine Caliber: Plurk made their own section for SLers
[13:49] Amanda Linden: have you been hassled as an SL resident by other folks in social networks?
[13:49] Cummere Mayo: inside and outside your userbase LL has a reputation of being unable to meet customer needs
[13:49] Nathan Adored: And most of the time I got there because that users has got Plurk set to twitter their plurk threads.
[13:49] Fine Caliber: their latest feature, the promoted plurks, they have a section specifically for us ^_^ not sure if it's to keep others out or to keep us in.
[13:49] Adamburp Adamczyk: i agree with cummere
[13:50] Nathan Adored: *go
[13:50] Cummere Mayo: work on that, and you wont need to market
[13:50] Cummere Mayo: cuase your users will do it for you
[13:50] Amanda Linden: on plurk?
[13:50] Fine Caliber: Plurk also added "Second life" as a country of origin in the dropdown.
[13:50] Fine Caliber: on plurk, yes.
[13:50] Cummere Mayo: plurk lists SL a... what fine said
[13:50] Amanda Linden: ok, think you guys just raised it way up my priority list!
[13:50] Daniel Voyager: nods
[13:50] Lexie: +1
[13:50] Amanda Linden: wow--will check it out more thoroughly and come back next week with thoughts...
[13:51] Ann Otoole: i want to find stuff todo. the destination guide is vetted in ways that ensures critics of LL will never be listed. And the events system is spammed incessently because LL will not deal with the spammers properly.So people stopped using it a lot. Along with other technical issues like altitude, etc.
[13:51] Fine Caliber: They're also better for back and forth dialogue. It functions as a UBB, I think.
[13:51] Cummere Mayo: but still instead of wasting time on facebook or plurg or wahtever... just work on delivering what your customers want and like you know learning your own product
[13:51] Fine Caliber: Oh... it is what customers want, so.
[13:51] Adamburp Adamczyk: here here
[13:51] Amanda Linden: yes--the user groups are focused on exactly that.
[13:51] Cummere Mayo: how many lindens here know how many clicks minimum it takes to create a new item of clothing?
[13:52] Fine Caliber: They obviously want more networking in their network.
[13:52] Suella Ember: different customers want different things ;)
[13:52] Amanda Linden: really getting that feedback to feed into our dev cycle.
[13:52] Cummere Mayo: how many here have ever tried to use viewer 2 without a mouse?
[13:52] Fine Caliber: Mostly to make up for the initial lack of a) groups and b) functioning group chat.
[13:52] Fine Caliber: c) profile depth.
[13:52] Chad Haalan: not me
[13:52] Amanda Linden: not me.
[13:52] Adamburp AdamczykAdamburp Adamczyk won't use v2 full stop
[13:52] Cummere Mayo: thats my point amanda
[13:52] Fine Caliber: that is why SL exists on facebook, twitter, plurk, flickr, youtube.
[13:52] Lexie: not me but I might try it now that you mentioned it
[13:52] Amanda Linden: Fine, we recently raised group chat to 42 and we're delivering a new group chat system by end of march.
[13:52] Fine CaliberFine Caliber salutes, "And I'm making full use of that feature."
[13:53] Amanda Linden: me too.
[13:53] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:53] Cummere Mayo: you ARE making progress but its useless to market yourselves when you have almsot zero street cred
[13:53] Fine Caliber: But the group chat still feels like it's on its last leg.
[13:53] Amanda Linden: teams are building the new one as we type!

??? [13:53] Lexie:

[13:54] Amanda Linden: last question.
[13:54] Amanda Linden: any suggesetions for user groups that aren't listed yet?
[13:54] Nathan Adored: Well, it's good to know the timetable for when the new chat system is to be rolled out. I look forward to it
[13:54] Cummere Mayo: policy, content creation, accessibility
[13:54] Amanda Linden: i've gotten several great suggestions of new user groups that we should forumate.
[13:54] Lexie: We are working hard to meet your needs AND your wants. This feedback matters and is appreciated.
[13:54] Cummere Mayo: privacy
[13:54] Adamburp Adamczyk: new chat great
[13:54] Cummere Mayo: the same four ive been stressing over and over
[13:54] Fine Caliber: I'm very excited for it. Like I said, SL should be a functioning social network. Where the community is going, these OTHER social networks hosting these different types of media, THAT is where LL should be looking if they're wondering where their user base and user communication is going.
[13:54] Adamburp Adamczyk: new customer support? rubbish
[13:54] Suella Ember: The Random "I love Cheese" User Group? .... What?! It was just a suggestion! :)
[13:55] Amanda Linden: suella wins.
[13:55] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:55] Suella Ember: ha!
[13:55] Nathan Adored: As apposed to a "Who Moved My Cheeze" usergroup?
[13:55] Lexie: hehe
[13:55] Suella Ember: lol
[13:55] Amanda Linden: LOL
[13:55] Chad Haalan: love cheese
[13:55] Cummere Mayo: seriously... policy, privacy, accessability, content creation
[13:55] Amanda Linden: great. i've gotten several of those suggestions arleady.
[13:55] Amanda Linden: already
[13:55] Cummere Mayo: those are user groups that are desperately needed
[13:55] Amanda Linden: will add 'em to the list.
[13:55] Cummere Mayo: oh and amanda
[13:55] Amanda Linden: yep
[13:56] Amanda Linden: an amanda user group? :)
[13:56] Cummere Mayo: you might wnat to follow http://lindenw.blogspot.com
[13:56] Amanda Linden: kk. will check it out
[13:56] Fine Caliber: Daniel Voyager just plurked something >:3
[13:56] Amanda Linden: ha
[13:56] Amanda Linden: well guys, we're almost at the end of our time.
[13:56] Fine Caliber: http://www.plurk.com/p/amcf0g here's your feedback.
[13:56] Amanda Linden: what items would you like on the agenda for next week?
[13:57] Cummere Mayo: that and the other blog i am also on staff for will poitn otu your successes and your failures
[13:57] Cummere Mayo: newxt week ild like to see a rep from social team here
[13:57] Amanda Linden: cummere--glad to hear it.
[13:57] Cummere Mayo: please
[13:57] Fine Caliber: Cummere: Who are you?
[13:58] Amanda Linden: kk, who's gonna grab the chat log and post? Rand?
[13:58] Cummere Mayo: a person that has put allot of heart and soul and time into SL Fine...
[13:58] Cummere Mayo: :P
[13:58] Rand: yes
[13:58] Suella Ember: as have we all :)
[13:58] Lexie: good response
[13:58] Amanda Linden: :)
[13:58] Amanda Linden: great--thanks all for a very productive session.
[13:58] Fine Caliber: In similar company then
[13:58] Amanda Linden: will come back next week with plurk ideas/thoughts to run by you guys.
[13:58] Rand: i will post to wiki and link from https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group
[13:59] Daniel Voyager: grins
[13:59] Lexie: Great talking with all of you. See you next week!
[13:59] Amanda Linden: and we'll post a draft agenda and feel free to add topoics that you want to cover.
[13:59] Ann Otoole: thanks for listening to our desperate pleas :)
[13:59] Amanda Linden: of course! that's what we're here for--to listen!
[13:59] Ţסř๔ẹ: thanks to you
[13:59] Suella Ember: thanks lexie \ amanda \ Rand
[13:59] Amanda Linden: and keep watching the blog--i'll be posting more comments this afternoon.
[13:59] Rand: Thanks for coming everybody..
[13:59] Fine Caliber: Good start. Thank you all.
[13:59] Lexie: Bye for now
[13:59] Amanda Linden: bye all.
[13:59] Chad Haalan: bye
[13:59] Suella EmberSuella Ember scuttles off to get her cheese on toast! :D
[13:59] Rand: adios!
[14:00] Amanda Linden: by suella. one day, we'll have to talk cheese.
[14:00] Nathan Adored: so where is the transcript of this posted?
[14:00] Amanda Linden: it willb e posted here:
[14:00] Amanda Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Community_Tools_User_Group
[14:00] Amanda Linden: Rand will have it up soon.
[14:00] Suella Ember: haha - see, I'll take you up on that amanda and you'll so regret it! I can talk about cheese for Days!
[14:00] Cummere Mayo: thank you
[14:00] Amanda Linden: ha!