Content Creation/Scripting User Group/Transcripts/2011 06 27

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List of Speakers

Arcane Laval
Fancy Greeter
flexi campfire
Kyrah Abattoir
Latif Khalifa
Liisa Runo
Michelle Resistance
Simon Linden

Transcript

[09:24] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Kelly...things happened

[09:24] Kyrah Abattoir: before i forget does any of you has a copiable version of the Alife creatures?

[09:24] tehKellz (kelly.linden): so they did

[09:24] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Yes, it's safe

[09:25] Latif Khalifa: Liisa, yes

[09:25] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): We could jump to another meeting location like the viewer evolution group's sand castle?

[09:25] Kyrah Abattoir: fine by me

[09:25] Kyrah Abattoir: and it's cozy

[09:25] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Ill go if everyone else does

[09:26] Kyrah Abattoir: i really have 140 scripts?

[09:26] Kyrah Abattoir: oh it's the shoes, i will have to clean those up

[09:27] Michelle Resistance: Anyhow, I was hoping to ask about SCR-32

[09:27] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-32

[#SCR-32] Extend llGetLocalPos function to llGet*PrimitiveParams under PRIM_POS_LOCAL

[09:27] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Well, sorry about that. :-/ If it happens again, lets jump to Oskar's spot on aditi

[09:27] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): are we crashing again?

[09:27] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): ahh OK

[09:28] Fancy Greeter: Simon Linden has arrived!

[09:28] Kyrah Abattoir: where is that?

[09:28] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): Morris on Aditi

[09:28] Nal (nalates.urriah): Give out an LM now before we have an unexpected problem...

[09:28] Nal (nalates.urriah): close enough

[09:29] Kyrah Abattoir: i'm on aditi right now

[09:29] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): you better be on Agni too

[09:29] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Morris (210,250,35)

[09:29] tehKellz (kelly.linden): So, I don't have any more news. On to open discussion, starting with SCR-32 I guess

[09:29] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): but its on tge BETA grid

[09:30] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Yes! We *demand* PRIM_POS_LOCAL!

[09:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): DEMAND!

[09:30] Liisa Runo: please

[09:30] Nal (nalates.urriah): Can some one send me a chat log of the news? I was busy crashing... :(

[09:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): we know.

[09:30] Latif Khalifa: or else! :P

[09:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Nal: Mono 2 upgrade should probably hopefully get released to all of Agni tomorrow.

[09:30] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): News was short. LeTigre Mono2 Perf gets promoted

[09:30] Kyrah Abattoir: prim_pos_local would be fine

[09:31] Nal (nalates.urriah): TY Kelly

[09:31] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Yeah Kyrah.

[09:31] Michelle Resistance: It would massively simplify things.

[09:31] Kyrah Abattoir: BUT

[09:31] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): woo for news i missed

[09:31] Kyrah Abattoir: i rather see the tracer/vector function to be finally out

[09:31] Kyrah Abattoir: whatever it's name is

[09:31] Kyrah Abattoir: oh right

[09:31] Kyrah Abattoir: raycast

[09:31] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): llcastray

[09:31] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): llCastRay() is blocked behind meshes... Don't hold your breath...

[09:31] Michelle Resistance: llCastRay is nice, but PRIM_POS_LOCAL is also very important.

[09:31] Liisa Runo: llCastRay is ready, just need to wait for the unrelated mono to stop holding it back

[09:32] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah but we can do without one

[09:32] Kyrah Abattoir: the other, not so much

[09:32] Liisa Runo: mesh, not mono ^^

[09:32] tehKellz (kelly.linden): hah hah. Mono has not been holding back cast ray in any way shape or form.

[09:32] tehKellz (kelly.linden): oh, ok.

[09:32] tehKellz (kelly.linden): :)

[09:32] Arcane Laval: lol

[09:32] Kyrah Abattoir: raycasting is the only hope of serious FPS game construction in sl

[09:32] Kyrah Abattoir: even with the lag

[09:33] Fancy Greeter: Charlar Linden has arrived!

[09:33] Kyrah Abattoir: well actually lets disregard the lag...

[09:33] tehKellz (kelly.linden): oh. Charlie is back, stop talking about mesh.

[09:33] Charlie (charlar.linden): what!

[09:33] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Idk I'd say sims not freezing up every 10 seconds is important for combat as well

[09:33] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): I still don't really like the current format for the llCastRay() function =(

[09:33] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): hmm I wonder if the region crash was caused by a critical mass of Lindens?

[09:33] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): hehehe

[09:33] Kyrah Abattoir: frankly even if llcastray was gimped to the max, like returning a single collider, i would be happy

[09:33] Charlie (charlar.linden): are yo saying we're fat?

[09:34] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): No I've seen 8 lindends with no problem

[09:34] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Which is not a stab at anyone, it's appreciation for Mono2

[09:34] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Er. I suppose you could use llCastRay to create an FPS, but you'd have to be fine with instant bullets.

[09:34] Arcane Laval: Not you Charlar :P

[09:34] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): not fat, but dense ;-)

[09:34] Charlie (charlar.linden): ah, thanks

[09:34] Michelle Resistance: Instant bullets with no effects.

[09:34] Kyrah Abattoir: well alyx, a sim is 256 meters

[09:34] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Now you're casting dispersions on =thier intelligence?

[09:34] Michelle Resistance: Falcon was misguided to think you could replace prim bullets with it.

[09:35] Michelle Resistance: But, it's still something that would be very useful for other things.

[09:35] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): ^

[09:35] Kyrah Abattoir: the average 22LR bullet is at 320M/s

[09:35] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): BTW, since I don't come to these often, thanks to the LL team for llRegionSay(). We're loving it. :p

[09:35] Michelle Resistance: *llRegionSayTo

[09:35] Qie (qie.niangao): So... as desperate as we all are to get the stuff held hostage to Mesh, the SCR-32 thing: at least *that* isn't linked to Mesh, right?

[09:35] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Er, yeah. Typo. Bit tired. :p

[09:35] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): yeah theres no way to get a bullet moving at normal gun speeds in sl, so even if it was instant, i doubt any realism would be lost

[09:35] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Meaningful (military) bullets are in the 2K-3K FPS

[09:36] Kyrah Abattoir: well with the lag it goves you jsut the delay for bullet travel speed :)

[09:36] Kyrah Abattoir: give

[09:36] Michelle Resistance: There's still no way to tie effects to that, Kyrah.

[09:36] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I moved SCR-32 to acknowledged and on the script backlog.

[09:36] Kyrah Abattoir: effects?

[09:36] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Thats the best I can do right now though.

[09:36] Kyrah Abattoir: oh you mean visual tracers?

[09:36] Qie (qie.niangao): ah, okay.

[09:36] Michelle Resistance: { And impact effects. }

[09:37] Kyrah Abattoir: it's better than nothing tho, it's BETTER than the alternative, aka "spam the sim with physical boolets"

[09:37] Liisa Runo: and delivery of damage, push, and physics bump ^^

[09:37] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): yeah the lack of damage is sad, there should be more support for linden damage

[09:38] Liisa Runo: oh, and not to gforget the collision detection from ray ^^

[09:38] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): I'd still prefer that llCastRay() was more flexible with what it returns, and in what order (for sorting), and used an origin + normal + range rather than start point + end point format

[09:38] Michelle Resistance: { Physical bullets aren't as bad as you'd think. Most high-ROF guns in SL use link message spam to control their rezzing threads. }

[09:38] tehKellz (kelly.linden): When you can create a bullet that does 100% damage, it becomes a hard system to support

[09:38] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): For explosive munitions, you still need a prim there to rez the explosive. For non-explosive munitions, you need some method to show people where bullets are actually travelling, unless you're going to go with something like laserguns and use an absurdly thin and long megaprim, I would think.

[09:38] Michelle Resistance: Much more useful would be the proposed ray_impact event.

[09:38] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): unfortunatly rturn-to-home is not a really useful end result

[09:38] Liisa Runo: ok, ok, im just joking, ray is good for many stuff, but will never replace all the bullets

[09:38] F L I P (flip.idlemind): You can use cast ray to determine if you hit someone, then rez a damage prim directly on them, rather than rezzing tons of physical bullets

[09:39] Kyrah Abattoir: yes but 90% of the basic hitscan weapons you expect in an average FPS (am not talking about milsims) is there with llcastray

[09:39] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): Then there is the issue of region boundrys

[09:39] Michelle Resistance: Very difficult to pull off flip.

[09:39] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): You can only rez within 10m, I don't think it'll be a big boon for standard SL damage, but it'll be good for scripted damage systems

[09:40] Kyrah Abattoir: you can move a prim across a sim with llSetPrimitiveParamsFast nearly instantly

[09:40] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): How do you tell the target it's been hit, when it;s across a region boundry?

[09:40] F L I P (flip.idlemind): You can only rez within 10m, but objects can subsequently move

[09:40] Kyrah Abattoir: my lift system when updated to it actually became too fast that i had to slow it down with sleeps

[09:40] Michelle Resistance: You can't pass sufficient target information fast enough, flip.

[09:40] Michelle Resistance: 32 bits only gets you a 256x256x1024 box with 1m resolution.

[09:40] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): But I don't like being forced to work with a start point and end point, as LSL is all about working with normals, and provides that data a lot more readily, meaning we're forced to work out an end-point ourselves which is unpleasant

[09:40] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): We can actually spam entire guided missiles without too much sim lag, honestly, due to some scripts we have. I'm not sure that it's the physics of the bullets, and the rezzing them, that's so much the problem.

[09:41] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): it would be nice if the rez limit was upped to 64 meters, or even 54 for the link distance when we can have larger prims, i see problems unless everyone just makes rezzers work at the center position

[09:41] Michelle Resistance: It's definitely not, Alyx. Remember Tyro's bulletspam?

[09:41] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Mhm.

[09:41] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): What was the BPS on that?

[09:41] Michelle Resistance: Ridiculous. 60?

[09:41] Michelle Resistance: It had almost no sim impact, even with lots of people using it at the same time.

[09:42] Kyrah Abattoir: everything has an impact

[09:42] Michelle Resistance: By using color changes to command the threads, instead of link message spam.

[09:42] Michelle Resistance: We've done pretty intensive comparisons.

[09:42] Kyrah Abattoir: oh clever

[09:42] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): was that before the introduction of temp rez queueing?

[09:42] Michelle Resistance: It's the link message spam most people use to implement their guns that's the problem.

[09:42] Michelle Resistance: It still works just fine.

[09:42] Kyrah Abattoir: so you pass through the changed event?

[09:42] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Yes.

[09:42] Michelle Resistance: Yep.

[09:43] Kyrah Abattoir: i like this i never thought about doing this

[09:43] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Neat trick.

[09:43] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): I don't think that bullets are actually the most important application for llCastRay.

[09:43] Michelle Resistance: And, that was a sort of naive implementation. I came up with a way to use the color vector to transmit a *lot* more information.

[09:43] Michelle Resistance: ^Alyx

[09:43] Liisa Runo: SVC-2402

[09:43] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2402

[#SVC-2402] New sensor flag: PHYSICAL

[09:43] Kyrah Abattoir: no they aren't but they are the most straightforward

[09:44] Michelle Resistance: Not really, given the practical limitations on giving visual feedback.

[09:44] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Well, it seems to me that the lag problem with bullets is mostly in the scripting side, as a result of not using things like changed().

[09:45] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): The side effects of not having tracers or things to rez explosions, seems to outweigh the benefits.

[09:45] Michelle Resistance: And (to a lesser extent now thanks to Kelly) mono bullets.

[09:45] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): ^

[09:45] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): the problem i have with most bullets is they dont use the moving_end event, so they get stuck on no entry lines

[09:45] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Heh, I didn't even think of that. Thanks for mentioning that.

[09:46] Michelle Resistance: Anyhow, Kelly, what about SCR-32? Is it just low priority?

[09:46] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): We've been doing our weapons dev in areas with no ban lines.

[09:46] tehKellz (kelly.linden): k moved 2402 to SCR-127 will let it hit triage before adding it to the backlog

[09:46] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-127

[#SCR-127] New sensor flag: PHYSICAL

[09:46] Kyrah Abattoir: well the other bullet issue is just that most "realistic" guns have to fire insanely fast for sl

[09:46] Kyrah Abattoir: i mean bolt action? fine

[09:47] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Michelle essentially yea.

[09:47] Kyrah Abattoir: an mp5 throw 900 rounds out mer minute

[09:47] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Will see what I can do to bump it though.

[09:47] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny): 10 RPM is a reasonable rat of fire for SL

[09:47] Kyrah Abattoir: add to this the doube for guns who eject casings

[09:48] Michelle Resistance: Case ejecting should be done with particles. ¬_¬

[09:48] Liisa Runo: (exept particle casings)

[09:48] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): Kelly, what's happened to SCR-42?

[09:48] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Ever heard of coaleasced objects? You can rez a lot at once.

[09:48] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): if only we had better control of the z axis for particle bounce, then we could make even nicer particle bullets than we have currently

[09:48] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): coalesced*

[09:48] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): I can't get it to open in my browser

[09:49] tehKellz (kelly.linden): got moved to viewer side and then to the experience teams internal backlog.

[09:49] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): particle ejection casings*

[09:49] Kyrah Abattoir: i agree for the particle casings i do that

[09:49] Kyrah Abattoir: OH speaking of it, any chance we could someday get prim based particles?

[09:49] tehKellz (kelly.linden): prim based particles?

[09:49] Kyrah Abattoir: 3D particles basically that are not server tracked

[09:50] Kyrah Abattoir: this would lighten the load of many prim based effects when 99% of the time they don't need to be "real"

[09:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I dunno. I would guess pretty low probability for the near to medium future.

[09:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It isn't a project I'm aware we are tracking.

[09:50] Michelle Resistance: What's top priority on the script backlog right now

[09:50] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Do you have a jira for the feature idea?

[09:50] Michelle Resistance: *?

[09:51] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): theres so many bugs in the particle system currently, i remember someone trying to fix them in a viewer, but because it broke legacy content that didnt properly use flags it "broke" old content

[09:51] Kyrah Abattoir: i could make a suggestion on the jira, but my suggestions have a history of never getting exposure until 5 years later a linden stumble on it and say "cool!"

[09:51] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Michelle: Right now scripting in general is on hold while we work to resolve some large ongoing projects.

[09:51] tehKellz (kelly.linden): scripting development I mean.

[09:51] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Ah. I was wondering about that.

[09:52] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Kyrah, that is more exposure than the idea that just sits in your head or on some chatlogs will get.

[09:53] Kyrah Abattoir: allright

[09:53] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Someone else said it best I think, "An issue with a jira may not get addressed :(, but an issue without a jira will never get addessed."

[09:53] Liisa Runo: SVC-2931

[09:53] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2931

[#SVC-2931] llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now

[09:53] Kyrah Abattoir: i'm not quite sure how to put it tho

[09:54] tehKellz (kelly.linden): There is a lot of comment to follow on that jira Liisa

[09:54] Liisa Runo: yup, i have read them all

[09:55] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): This one is annoying... You can have sit target up to 300m... But you can't move the AV 1m from that or it would jump back to 54m

[09:55] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): And no, I'm not suggesting to limit sit target to 54m! :P

[09:55] Latif Khalifa: hehe

[09:55] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Are you sure Kaluura? Thats what I heard.....

[09:55] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): heh.

[09:55] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): lol.

[09:56] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I think that jira should be closed, SLPP follows prim link rules even for agents.

[09:57] Liisa Runo: yea, and thta broke content, agents yused to have exeption in the rules

[09:57] tehKellz (kelly.linden): :-/

[09:57] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And now it has been that way for almost 3 years.

[09:57] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): ...And ppl still complain.

[09:58] Michelle Resistance: The long distance sit targets are extremely useful.

[09:58] Liisa Runo: for example, that was superior way to make local teleports, Now that LL is improving the general performance and reducing lag, this would make teleporters take much less resources from the sim

[09:58] Liisa Runo: than the methods we currently use

[09:58] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Michelle's right on that count.

[09:58] tehKellz (kelly.linden): How so Liisa?

[09:58] tehKellz (kelly.linden): This doesn't effect long distance sit targets.

[09:59] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Actually ...

[09:59] Liisa Runo: with this, we only need to move the agent, not the whole prim, and no need to re-rez prims that get lost in the process of teleporting through parcel with restrictions

[09:59] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Hm, nevermind.

[09:59] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Liisa: But the normal sit-target hack doesn't work for you?

[10:00] Liisa Runo: no, it dont work, 300m is not enough, and i cant set it AFTER i have sat on the prim

[10:00] Liisa Runo: many teleports have multible destinations

[10:00] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): Sounds more like you need llTeleportAgent

[10:01] Qie (qie.niangao): indeed

[10:01] Michelle Resistance: If 300m isn't enough, you can just have the thing they sit on posjump to the target, unsit the agent, and posjump back.

[10:01] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): long range sit teleport is really just a "hack" used in teleport agent's absence

[10:01] Liisa Runo: sure, there are workarounds, but the old method was superior, more simple scripts, less juice taken from the sim

[10:01] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Please, don't open that Pandora box!

[10:01] Latif Khalifa: we should have llTeleportAgent() that follows the permission system of animations and be done with it ;)

[10:01] Michelle Resistance: Actually, Kelly, what about the posjump technique? Are you aware of it?

[10:01] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): ^

[10:01] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Yes Michelle

[10:01] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah altho for estate managers the perm check shouldn't be needed

[10:01] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov) shouts: Speaking of useful abuses of LSL calls, any idea on when posJump will be "fixed"?

[10:01] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): oops.

[10:02] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): Never!

[10:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): 'fixed'?

[10:02] Simon Linden: Latif - if that was just within a region, would you still be happy with it?

[10:02] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): I want to know how safe it is to use.

[10:02] tehKellz (kelly.linden): We've already 'fixed' it and un-'fixed' it at least once.

[10:02] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): It was broken once and very quickly repaired.

[10:02] Michelle Resistance: It's so much superior to WarpPos. Can we leave it unfixed?

[10:02] Latif Khalifa: Simon, that would be a good start!

[10:02] Michelle Resistance: Or, if it does get "fixed" can we have a replacement at the same time?

[10:03] Simon Linden: thanks, that's good to know ... staying within a region is a much simpler case

[10:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Meeting time is officially over. I'll stick around for a little longer though because of the earlier disruptions

[10:03] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Aw, no comment on posJump?

[10:03] Kyrah Abattoir: AH i'm gonna bring this one up again... It's still out of the question to give permission check bypass for estate manager owned scripts?

[10:03] tehKellz (kelly.linden): What was the question on posjump?

[10:03] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): Simon, if you do that can you call it llTeleportAgentLocal() ;-)

[10:04] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Is at risk of being 'fixed' anytime soon? That is, is it safe for me to use?

[10:04] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): (Relatively, anyway)

[10:04] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Kyrah - we would need a more robust trusted-content system in place I think.

[10:04] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): No! Enough with llFunctionWithANameThatDoesNotFitOnALine() !!!

[10:04] tehKellz (kelly.linden): alyx: I think it is pretty safe.

[10:04] tehKellz (kelly.linden): If it is less than 80 chars it will fit on a line!

[10:04] Simon Linden: well, it might be possible to design it to work only locally first, but leave it possible to expand to inter-region later

[10:05] Kyrah Abattoir: kelly, what do you mean about trusted content ?

[10:05] Latif Khalifa: unless you do it in commode 64 emulator in which case it's 40 chars :P

[10:05] Simon Linden: ... these are just ideas at this point, so no promises...

[10:05] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): A few ppl would kiss your feet if a local version appears...

[10:05] Simon Linden looks at his boots and wonders...

[10:05] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): some people would kiss more than his feet ;-)

[10:05] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): hehehe

[10:06] Nal (nalates.urriah): is there a feature rquest JIRA for tpagent...()?

[10:06] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): The permissions coverage on the llTeleportAgent() issue is already pretty well covered

[10:06] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): There are tons of them!

[10:06] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): I think the best system is already document on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlTeleportAgent as well

[10:07] Nal (nalates.urriah): I'll look them up... I use the functions on OSGrid. Makeslife easier. (TY Haravikk)

[10:07] Liisa Runo: SVC-1733

[10:07] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1733

[#SVC-1733] llTeleportAgent(key user, string message) - Alternative With Logic Flowchart & Dialog popup

[10:07] Latif Khalifa: It's simple to define llTeleportAgentLocal(agentt, position) (following permissions of animation, ie. if agent is sitting on that object, no explicit popup for permission, otherwise yes)

[10:07] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Hrm, for that wiki page feature: Drop the 0.1 sleep, and auto permission when on land owned by the scripted object's owner is not acceptable.

[10:08] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): Why not? There's not much point having the function if that can't be allowed =/

[10:08] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): SCR-16 is also teleport agent request

[10:08] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-16

[#SCR-16] New Feature Request - llTeleportAgent

[10:08] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): I think I can understand why.

[10:08] tehKellz (kelly.linden): It is, in my opinion, far too abusable.

[10:09] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): llTeleportAgentHome can already do that

[10:09] Kyrah Abattoir: what about if it's owned by estate manager?

[10:09] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): But that's different.

[10:09] Latif Khalifa: Kelly. I think following the rules as for animation would work fine

[10:09] Liisa Runo: ah, that is better jira, no wonder the one i found didnt have more votes ^^

[10:09] tehKellz (kelly.linden): And as a consequence sends the target to the safe place of their choosing, not the scripters.

[10:09] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): You can't harass an avatar much by teleporting them home.

[10:09] Simon Linden: Sending home is a one-shot event, the other could put you in a repeating TP to really abuse someone

[10:09] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): ^

[10:09] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): Sensible throttle and the ability to block will easily cover abuse cases

[10:10] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): And are needed anyway really, in case of auto-granted attachments

[10:10] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I disagree that it is sufficient. Especially if combined with other griefing efforts.

[10:10] Michelle Resistance: Giving it rules like animation would actually be really sensible. Auto-permission if an attachment or something you're sitting on, otherwise it asks.

[10:10] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Well, let's imagine for a moment that it's not local.

[10:10] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): how would you throttle the agent being teleported, they could end up in a loop with each sim not knowing about previous teleports?

[10:10] Michelle Resistance: { Chatlag. }

[10:10] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I agree on the auto-permissions for attachments and sat upon objects

[10:10] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): Not allowing it for land would nerf it so much that there would be little really improvement from current solutions

[10:11] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): I can set up a relay to constantly tp someone between my multiple (hypothetical) sims or parcels the minute they set foot on there, constantly, and start up again the minute they relog there.

[10:11] Latif Khalifa: Haravikk, people are used to "sit" to teleport. And you can send object default click action

[10:11] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): Which throttling and blocking would allow someone to escape quite happily, or TPing themselves home

[10:11] F L I P (flip.idlemind): Auto permissions grant on sit and attach, otherwise explicitly request permissions...it wouldn't be that different from a regular TP offer

[10:11] Latif Khalifa: following animation rules both prevents the abuse and it doesn't hamper ease-of-use

[10:11] tehKellz (kelly.linden): In that regard I think we need to design a better permission scheme for 'trusted' content so that you could accept 1 dialog of permissions to enable the content in a region more direct control over your experience.

[10:12] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Well, forced teleport is more of an RLV thing.

[10:12] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): But remember, with RLV, you have to give permission for that sort of thing first before someone can force-teleport you.

[10:13] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): In terms of disciplinary actions, a forced teleport is much less preferable to teleporthome.

[10:13] Simon Linden: +1 on Kelly's idea. We really should have an option to say "I'm in this region and OK with the system" and that allows animation, local TPs, etc. that can be part of that game or world

[10:13] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): The terms of service already cover overly aggressive land security

[10:13] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): So, if you want that as part of your sim's game experience, they're probably already wearing an attachment.

[10:14] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): to abuse llTeleportAgent a griefer would need to own land, and the user would have to ignore a myriad of options for escaping a forced teleport

[10:14] Kyrah Abattoir: attachments are clunky

[10:14] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): But I also agree with Simon and Kelly that a more flexible trusted content system would be better.

[10:14] Kyrah Abattoir: it require communicationa nd communication can be spoofed

[10:14] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): It would also be insanely complicated, and likely never ever see the light of day, resulting in further delays to a feature request that is already more than half a decade old…

[10:15] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): llregionsayto helped a lot with that kyrah though

[10:15] Latif Khalifa: well trusted system is years off llTeleportAgentLocal with security semantics of the animation can be done in a day :P

[10:15] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): Haravikk, what myriad of options? the way you described it the only option is do not enter land you don't know for certain does not have forced teleport

[10:15] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Haravikk, what do you need forced land local teleport for? I'm curious about what your planned use case is.

[10:16] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): Blocking object owners to prevent teleport, and throttling, which are both requirements for the feature

[10:16] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): You can then also teleport anywhere of your choosing easily enough as well

[10:17] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): And the fact that a griefer would need to own land already severely restricts the potential abuse

[10:17] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Haravikk, it alters the power balance and expectations between land owners and users.

[10:17] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): by throttling, do you mean on the script? that wouldn't prevent repeated use on different parcels? Or do you mean on a per owner basis grid wide, that doesn't seem too feasible to me

[10:17] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): As a land owner I can teleport you off my land, if I happen to abuse that then you can abuse report me already

[10:17] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): All this stuff is already in place

[10:17] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): its a shame that the strength rules with llpushobject were changed along with the parcel/region setting, you used to be able to do some neat things with avatar movement, that would simulate teleports with it

[10:18] Kyrah Abattoir: ther eis a power baance between land owner and non land owners?

[10:18] Michelle Resistance: The strength rules were changed?

[10:18] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): no, as a land owner you have the absolute right to return me home, no question. that cannot be abused except if an idiot continues to enter your land

[10:18] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): It says, that if you're the land owner, you have the right to just tp your visitors anywhere you want. You are effectively making them do something without their consent. That is different from most current security options.

[10:18] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): when havok 4 came out

[10:18] Kyrah Abattoir: i can freeze you indefinitely too...

[10:18] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): actually before that

[10:18] Kyrah Abattoir: i'd say force teleporting is a lesser evil...

[10:18] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): way before that, i was a long time ago

[10:18] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Er, no.

[10:19] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): it*

[10:19] Kyrah Abattoir: but if they enter a private sim they already gave their consent.

[10:19] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Freezing does not make the user do something against their will.

[10:19] Kyrah Abattoir: and they always get the option to tp home

[10:19] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): It just prevents them from interacting with the land owner's land.

[10:19] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam): i still think its funny you can use vehicles while frozen

[10:19] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): If you didn't want to go home, then being made to teleport there is no different to being made to teleport anywhere else

[10:19] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): I disagree with "if they enter a private sim they already gave their consent".

[10:19] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): No, it is different.

[10:20] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): Haravikk, I don't agree. your home is YOPUR choice of environment, not someone elses

[10:20] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): If I can literally teleport you anywhere that I want, that destination is a place of my choosing, not your choosing.

[10:20] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): That's what's so great about teleport agent home.

[10:21] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): It's irrelevant, I mean seriously how many land owners do you expect will start teleporting people as they please? Land requires monetary investment at the risk of it being taken away if you abuse the priledges it allows. The system for preventing abuse therefore already exists

[10:21] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): any how, wat passed end of meeting.

[10:21] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): gotta go

[10:21] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): way past too

[10:21] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Many people believe the system for preventing abuse to already be inadequate.

[10:21] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Additionally, it violates user expectations and autonooomy.

[10:22] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): not just inadequate, far too laxly enforced

[10:22] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): autonomy*

[10:22] Kyrah Abattoir: well many peoples consider way too much to be encroaching on their rights

[10:22] tehKellz (kelly.linden): I kinda liked it with 3 os.

[10:22] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): heh.

[10:22] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): It's a disempowering thing.

[10:22] Ima Mechanique (nielarcher): bye all

[10:22] Kyrah Abattoir: personally always felt that as a lang owner you don't get much power really, why do you think griefers usually have a field day in sl

[10:22] Kyrah Abattoir: land owner

[10:22] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Bye Ima

[10:23] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): I can't sit around arguing this forever; it's all covered on the JIRA, but the simple fact is that implementing llTeleportAgent() without the ability for land owner auto-grant will make implementing the whole thing completely pointless. The potential for griefing is minimal to the point of non-existance, there are already far more abusable features

[10:23] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Well, Kyrah, for land owner anti-griefing purposes, teleporting home is going to be better at solving griefing.

[10:23] Haravikk (haravikk.mistral): Apparently not under your assumption that ever land owner is a griefer in the making =/

[10:24] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): I'm not making that assumption. :p

[10:24] tehKellz (kelly.linden): All right, 5 more minutes of this extended meeting. Are there any other pressing topics?

[10:24] Kyrah Abattoir: what i mean is that land owners should have script facilities that allow them to take actions anytime a prim enter the land or anytime something is rezzed

[10:24] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): But forced teleports to destinations of the land owner's choosing still aren't acceptable.

[10:25] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Ah, Kyrah, that's different.

[10:25] Kyrah Abattoir: a land owner by large is jsut a guy who has the right to change the setting sof the parcel

[10:25] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): I've always want a prim-returning buldozer. :3

[10:25] Kyrah Abattoir: that's all he gets otherwise he is as powerless as the next noob

[10:25] Michelle Resistance: How long do you think it's going to be before Mono 2 is fully deployed, Kelly?

[10:25] Liisa Runo: (this been discussed already, but now when we have some new faces, ill advertise my fav JIRA, need more votes SCR-19 )

[10:25] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-19

[#SCR-19] Script function to return objects

[10:25] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Almost at 100 votes!

[10:26] Kyrah Abattoir: you got my vote but it's only interesting if we can detect such prim in the first place

[10:26] Liisa Runo: still need more, we still dont have it

[10:26] Michelle Resistance: Did they give up on removing voting from the JIRA? :o

[10:26] Michelle Resistance: 'Cuz that was a really bad idea.

[10:26] Alyx Tairov (agent.tairov): Oh! I won't just vote for it. I'll Watch it.

[10:27] Simon Linden: It's time for me to go ... thanks everyone for the good discussion

[10:27] Nal (nalates.urriah): Thx for extending the meeting Kelly. Bye all

[10:29] Kaluura (kaluura.boa): I thought I crashed...

[10:29] Liisa Runo: oldie but goodie: SVC-422 (not script related)

[10:29] flexi campfire: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-422

[#SVC-422] A solution to scams, money theft - etc. New parcels Flag "Block Transactions"

[10:30] tehKellz (kelly.linden): Take care everyone. Thanks for coming.

[10:30] Qie (qie.niangao): thanks Kelly