Doc Team/2007-11-09

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Jeremy Linden: Hey tehre, Phli!
Phli Foxchase: Hello :)
Jeremy Linden: Here for the office hours?
Phli Foxchase: yes but I don't speak a fluent english
Phli Foxchase: in advance sorry for the mistakes
Jeremy Linden: Ah. That's ok!
Jeremy Linden: I'll try not to be too confusing :-)
Phli Foxchase: thank you
Jon Linden: hi there
Phli Foxchase: Hello !
Jon Linden: nice avatar!
Phli Foxchase: thank's :)
Phli Foxchase: why dis you put the knowledge base in the support ?
Phli Foxchase: did*
  Jon Linden: that is a good question
Phli Foxchase: we have to enter the login before reading
march Korda: hi
Jeremy Linden: Hello, march!
Phli Foxchase: Hi march
Jon Linden: i was hired just after we made the decision to migrate to the current support portal architecture...
Jon Linden: ... but one of the advantages we thought would be extremely useful at the time was the ability to link KB answers to support ticket questions
Phli Foxchase: the login takes 30 sec to 1 min
Jon Linden: we've gotten (and generated) a lot of heat over the KB being behind a login, and we're working on getting that changed
Phli Foxchase: ok
Phli Foxchase: how many articles do you have ?
Jon Linden: let me check
Phli Foxchase: pages*
Jon Linden: it's actually hard to tell, because we put many articles in multiple folders, and the report i've got open doesn't seem to distinguish between the two
march Korda: it sounds There are few people who take charge of KB.:-(
Jon Linden: technically speaking, you're right in that there are only two of us!
Jeremy Linden: Only the two of us! :-)
march Korda: oh..
Jon Linden: SL is a pretty complicated product, as you probably know. ^_^
Phli Foxchase: do you plan to translate the KB in the future (I'm french) ?
Jon Linden: i /think/ we are, but i'm not 100% positive
Phli Foxchase: ok
Phli Foxchase: I'm a french mentor
Jon Linden: we do know there are a lot of French-speaking Residents!
Phli Foxchase: so I often have to translate for the french players
march Korda: great!
Jon Linden: we were approached some time ago by a Resident representing a group of people who said they were willing to take on translation of the KB into multiple languages
Phli Foxchase: ok
Jon Linden: i think the truly complicated nature of such a project eventually got the better of them, though, which is unfortunate
Phli Foxchase: I think there is to many websites like pjira/wiki/KB...
Phli Foxchase: it's hard to find the informations
Jeremy Linden: Each of those websites has a specialized purpose, though.
Jon Linden: we could probably work on making the distinction clearer
Jeremy Linden: It would not be appropriate to report bugs through the Knowledge Base, for instance :-)
Phli Foxchase: :)
Phli Foxchase: the resident don't where to go to find the solution
Jon Linden: PJIRA is mostly an issue-reporting system
Phli Foxchase: they think support is only for the AR
Jon Linden: even the Knowledge Base Suggestions ticket type sees some traffic from people trying to report abuse
Jeremy Linden: Hmm. I am currently working on a new consolidated Help menu that should help direct Residents to the correct support resources.
Jon Linden: it should be pretty excellent
Jon Linden: in my opinion, of course
Phli Foxchase: can we access to the KB from inworld ?
Jon Linden: currently, not yet
Phli Foxchase: :/
Jon Linden: the KB uses some sort of Javascript or other browser-specific thing that doesn't work inside our inworld browser
Jon Linden: but that's another thing we are working on
Phli Foxchase: many things :)
march Korda: I heard that there is a project of displaying a WEB page inside SL.
Phli Foxchase: html on prim ?
Jon Linden: i've heard about that, too, but i don't have much in the way of detail
march Korda: i dont know. it may be html.
Jeremy Linden: There are a couple projects that would allow web browsing in the SL viewer... unfortunately, the projects themselves don't fall into this Office Hour's range of topics.
Phli Foxchase: ok
march Korda: hmm. it's unofficial..
Phli Foxchase: have you writen about havok4 or the new search ?
Jon Linden: there'll be an updated FAQ for the new search when the release candidate comes out
Jeremy Linden: We'll have them covered, but we generally don't publish information to the Knowledge Base until we release the viewer to the Residents.
Jon Linden: exactly
Jeremy Linden: If I may ask... what might we do for you to improve your experience with the Knowledge Base or other online help?
march Korda: I wonder what different about HAVOC4 and old HAVOC(3?).
Phli Foxchase: translate in french ? :)
Phli Foxchase: the knowledge is hidden
Jeremy Linden: march, our current physics engine is Havok 1... Havok 4 will increase Region stability by a significant amount.
Jeremy Linden: For more info on that, you should probably attent Havok4 office hours... I'm not directly involved in that project :-)
Jon Linden: we are working on getting the KB out from behind the login
Jeremy Linden: er, attend*
march Korda: ok,thx.
Phli Foxchase: but I love the new search engine for the KB
Phli Foxchase: it's very usefull
Jeremy Linden: Hm. Yes... it's important to note that putting the Knowledge Base behind a login was not our decision- It's actually because a login is required for the rest of the Support system that the Knowledge Base is integrated into.
Phli Foxchase: ok
Jeremy Linden: Ah, yes! The new search in the KB was one of our reasons for changing- you can now search for three-letter tems, like "lag"!
Phli Foxchase: lag in SL , :)
Phli Foxchase: ?*
Jon Linden: heh
Phli Foxchase: don't know
Jeremy Linden: I've heard it happens sometimes :-)
Jon Linden: i have here a blog post that collects some information about Havok4
Jon Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/01/second-life-havok4-beta-preview-update-online-2007-11-01/
Phli Foxchase: sometimes when I read on the KB, I see a line on the page
Jon Linden: for future reading
Jon Linden: you see that too?
Phli Foxchase: yes
Phli Foxchase: it's weird
Jon Linden: i agree
Jon Linden: i think it has something to do with how my browser renders the page -- are you using Firefox?
Phli Foxchase: do you want a snapshot ?
Jeremy Linden: Oh, yes... that happens in Firefox. The Knowledge Base was originally designed to be compatible with IE6, but they have come a long way in making it work with Firefox.
Phli Foxchase: yes
Jon Linden: ah so
Phli Foxchase: ok
march Korda: its looks cool at IE6.
Jon Linden: most excellent
Jeremy Linden: One item that came up several times in the comments to our "Knowledge Base Articles of the Week" was the fact that we don't cover some extremely technical details. In your opinions, what level of detail would you prefer from the Knowledge Base, and how might you separate the introductory material from the gory details?
march Korda: I think KB should advertized as beginner-oriented.
Jon Linden: would you be comfortable with having more advanced information in a different section of the KB, or perhaps in the wiki?
Jon Linden: (my preference would be a different section of the KB)
Phli Foxchase: the wiki is very technical
Jon Linden: actually, that raises a new question, which is: Does the current organization of the KB make sense? is there a better way to organize the information?
Phli Foxchase: I think different sections is good
Jon Linden: i'm thinking of putting in a new section with sub-folders for different kinds of Residents
Jon Linden: builders, scripters, educators, etc.
march Korda: I LOVE wiki with technical section.
Phli Foxchase: we can separate resident from estate owners
Jon Linden: there could even be sub-folders for "beginners" and "advanced Residents"
Phli Foxchase: yes
Jon Linden: Phli, that is an excellent idea
march Korda: i think so.
Phli Foxchase: that's a good idea
Jeremy Linden: Would you like to see some of the more technical information from the wiki imported to the Knowledge Base, or do you think it is more effective on the public wiki, where knowledgeable Residents can edit it?
Jon Linden: something just occurred to me as a corollary, which is: how official do you perceive information on the SL wiki to be?
Phli Foxchase: The wiki is too technical and everybody can change the articles
march Korda: KB should not be editable.it's official web site.. i think.
Jon Linden: the thing that always makes me at least a little nervous about the wiki is what Phli describes, where really just about anybody can edit it, which means it's possible for wrong information to get in there
Jon Linden: and since it's on wiki.secondlife, i worry that people will think we Lindens are trying to spread lies!
Jeremy Linden: Personally, I like the "wisdom of the crowd" effect a wiki can have... you often get very good information. However, it's true that anyone can change the information... I also feel that you need to know what you're looking for if you are trying to find information in a wiki... there is no way to simply "surf" it.
Jon Linden: also true
Jon Linden: hello Kaylith
Jeremy Linden: Hello, Kaylith!
Phli Foxchase: The firts page on the Kb is a quite empty
Phli Foxchase: first*
march Korda: hi Kaylith
Jon Linden: we built the introductory page to the KB on the spare side on purpose
Kaylith Charron: hello phil hello march
Jeremy Linden: True, but the KB has a clearly visible directory structure. Do you find that useful?
Jon Linden: too much information there would've made it less usable, or at least that was the thinking at the time
Phli Foxchase: Hello Kaylith
march Korda: The simpler one of an entrance is good.
Phli Foxchase: we don't know where to go
Jon Linden: Phli, do you mean to read articles or to submit a ticket?
Phli Foxchase: find how to begin in second Life for example
Phli Foxchase: I've just created my account
Jon Linden: ah, the pitfalls of design
Jon Linden: the first link at the top of the splash page is a link to the "how to get started in SL" article
Jon Linden: underneath that is the link to the support system FAQ
march Korda: I think that is necessary is just to hierarchize content.
Jeremy Linden: Admittedly, it does look a lot like everything else on the page... maybe we can look into changing the color.
Jon Linden: march: we do have a hierarchy of information (the folder tree on the left side of the page) -- unless i misunderstand your statement
Phli Foxchase: it's closed for me by default
Jon Linden: it's that way for everybody; something to do with the way they implemented it
Phli Foxchase: if I don't click I don't know they were here
march Korda: ah, my browser not shown left side bar. where is KB?...;-)
Jon Linden: i'm not sure if there's a way for us to change whether the directory tree is expanded by default, but that would definitely make it more visible
Jon Linden: my gut feeling on that is that we looked into it when we first moved over, but i could be wrong!
Phli Foxchase: Honestly, I never used the tree
Phli Foxchase: I always used the search
Jeremy Linden: That's logical... I imagine most people come to the Knowledge Base with a mission to find something specific.
Jon Linden: i tend to use the search too, unless I know exactly where the article I'm thinking of lives
Jon Linden: the directory tree is more for people who aren't seeking a specific answer, but are browsing
Jon Linden: i'm not sure how many of those there are, but it must be a nonzero number
Phli Foxchase: but Look at Wikipedia, they show the different section on the first page and without tree
Jeremy Linden: True, but you also can't browse Wikipedia from start to finish- you almost *must* search.
Phli Foxchase: yes :)
march Korda: exactry..
Phli Foxchase: I find the first page too empty, but that's my opinion
Jon Linden: i like giving people the option to browse
Jon Linden: it's a valid opinion!
Phli Foxchase: I wouldlike to see different section
Phli Foxchase: So I would know where to go
Phli Foxchase: without to open a tree on the left
Jeremy Linden: Part of the problem with that implementation is that we have to share the front page with the rest of Support- file a ticket, call phone support, etc.
Jon Linden: we could certainly think about trying to make the truly introductory elements more prominently visible, within reason
Jeremy Linden: If we could get our own dedicated Knowledege Base front page, we could included dedicated featured articles and other features :-)
Jeremy Linden: Include* (sorry)
Phli Foxchase: do you writte about the projects?
Phli Foxchase: write*
Jeremy Linden: Can you elaborate a little bit? Which projects?
Jon Linden: there are quite a few of those going on around here ^_^
Phli Foxchase: I love to go on the wiki to read what are the new project like Dazzle
march Korda: A support representative also looks at the same KB as a resident. A resident comes to refer to KB from next time. I wish so.
Jon Linden: my preference is always to wait to document new features represented by projects like Dazzle -- i need them to be finished, or in a near-finished state, in order to give the most accurate information
Phli Foxchase: the residents are curious
Jon Linden: sure!
Jeremy Linden: Ah! Usually, those projects that are still in progress are maintained by their respective teams. For instance, I believe Sidewinder has been updating the wiki with Havok4 information, since he's heavily involved in that project.
Jon Linden: i think it's pretty much up to the project team how much information they put out there
Phli Foxchase: sometimes you write about the debug menu
march Korda: "programmer hate to write document".. sigh.
Phli Foxchase: are the debug menu official ?
Phli Foxchase: is*
Jon Linden: you mean the Debug Settings window, opened from the Client menu?
Jon Linden: Client > Debug Settings
Phli Foxchase: iyes
Phli Foxchase: yes*
Jon Linden: it's "official" in the sense that whatever's in there should function
Jon Linden: there are so many options in there, it would be a herculean task to document them all
Jon Linden: we still don't have a comprehensive guide to the Client menu, for instance, which is something we're definitely aware of
Phli Foxchase: ok
Jeremy Linden: It's largely limited to "tips and tricks" articles, from a documentation standpoint. The debug menu is not something you ever need to interact with in order to lead a normal Second Life.
Jon Linden: also true
Jeremy Linden: Hello, Moku!
Moku Mayo: Hi... I was wondering if I could ask a question.
Jeremy Linden: Go ahead!
Moku Mayo: Hi :)
march Korda: hi Moku!
Jon Linden: sorry moku, didn't see you there (camera too close to carpet)
Moku Mayo: Waht's Linden lab's opinion/stance on 'rez boxes?'
Jon Linden: i ... don't know what those are
Phli Foxchase: temporary rez ?
Moku Mayo: Where you use temp prims, and keep rezzing them...
Moku Mayo: Yeah. :)
Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
Phli Foxchase: bingo !
Moku Mayo: It seems like a bit of a hack... Maybe abuse?
Jon Linden: honestly, i don't know
Jon Linden: it sounds like something to ask the Governance team
Jeremy Linden: Hm. That's a bit outside what we're covering here today. I don't think either of us is equipped to answer that particular policy question. It's something we can find out, and possibly add to the Knowledge Base, though.
Moku Mayo: Cool... How do I find those guys? :)
Jon Linden: the Gteam has office hours, i'm finding them for you now
Moku Mayo: Thanks! :0
Jeremy Linden: Jon for the win.
Jon Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/05/governance-team-office-hours/
Phli Foxchase: I'ld love to see one page with support/blog/KB/Wiki
Moku Mayo: Thank you very much!
Jon Linden: it sounds like they do it Mon-Fri at 10am PST
Phli Foxchase: and Jira*
Jon Linden: Phli, do you mean one page with links to each one, or one page that somehow integrates them all?
Phli Foxchase: yes
Jeremy Linden: Phli, the consolidated help menu will have links to those resources, all from one page.
Moku Mayo: I love this place, by the way. It's a great world. You guys do good work. :)
Jon Linden: thank you -- that's excellent to hear!
Moku Mayo: bye. :)
Jon Linden: take care!
Jeremy Linden waves.
Phli Foxchase: it's hard to switch between all the websites
Jon Linden: this is why i love tabbed browsing
Jeremy Linden: Hm. True, but the formatting of information is very different between the KB, wiki, and blog.
Jon Linden: i highly doubt there's a good way to integrate all of these sources into one comprehensive page; providing links to each one from a single central point will be nice
march Korda: It is because the purpose differ.
Jeremy Linden: Exactly, march :-)
Phli Foxchase: By the way, do you have a linden bear Jon, I already have Jeremy's bear :)
Jon Linden: i believe i do
Jon Linden: i made it during the time when i was wearing a green jello avatar
Phli Foxchase: transfert ?
Phli Foxchase: (the bear)
march Korda: comprehensive pages like WIKI is great.
Phli Foxchase: thank you :)
Jon Linden: no problem!
Jeremy Linden: march, would ever prefer -only- a wiki or -only- the KB?
march Korda: I discussed the editorial policy of WIKI there.
march Korda: both need.
march Korda: WIKI is technical.
Jeremy Linden: The KB can be technical as well. We have the power to make it so :-)
march Korda: WIKI include about viewer-architecture, how to write LSL, but not include about appearance, about money,
march Korda: and How to live in this world.
march Korda: it should be included KB.
march Korda: I think purpse is it...
Jeremy Linden: Ah, I see. I often see the wiki as a great place for detailed information about things we can't include in the KB, like how to start a business.
march Korda: yes
Jon Linden: since there are so many ways to do it, and we don't want to endorse just one
Jon Linden: folks, we are just about out of time
Jon Linden: are there any other questions you'd like to ask before we head out?
Jon Linden: i also want to thank you for coming
Phli Foxchase: thank you for the office hour :)
Phli Foxchase: it was a pleasure
march Korda: when is HOVOC-officehour?
Jeremy Linden: Indeed! This has been a very productive conversation. Thanks very much for coming!
march Korda: I enjoy this time. thankyou!
Jon Linden: thank you all!
Jeremy Linden: I'll check on the Havok office hours, one moment.
Jon Linden: nice
march Korda: cool
Jon Linden: it's possible Sidewinder may not have office hours; not every Linden does
march Korda: OK.
Phli Foxchase: thuersday I think
Jeremy Linden: Tuesdays at 4:30pm @ Brampton stage, and Thursdays at 8am
Jon Linden: ah! there you go
march Korda: great!
Jon Linden: everybody have a great weekend!
Jeremy Linden: You, too!
march Korda: u 2.
Phli Foxchase: bye bye
Jeremy Linden waves
march Korda: see you!