Doc Team/2010-11-03

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[13:00] Eliza Janus: Hello, Jeremy, nice to see you. Hello, Simon, nice to meet you.
[13:00] Eliza Janus has pinged you.
[13:00] Jeremy Linden: Hi everyone!
[13:00] Simon Kline: hi Eliza!! and you! :D
[13:00] Simon Kline: hi Jeremy! Long time no see :D
[13:00] Simon Kline has pinged you.
[13:01] Eliza Janus: Take a seat, Simon.
[13:01] Eliza Janus: Hello, KittyCat Diesel.
[13:01] Misscheevers Borkotron: Hello Jeremy, hello Simon
[13:01] Misscheevers Borkotron has pinged you.
[13:01] Eliza Janus: Nice to meet you.
[13:01] KittyCat Diesel: ◕‿◕
[13:01] KittyCat Diesel: hai nice to meet you too
[13:01] Jeremy Linden: Wow, lots of people this week.
[13:01] Simon Kline: I think doc office hours win the award for most comfy seats at an office hour
[13:01] Eliza Janus: Hello, Aargle Zymurgy. Welcome.
[13:01] Eliza Janus: Yes, I have noticed. That is unusual.
[13:01] Aargle Zymurgy: Argle bargle morble whoosh!
[13:01] Aargle Zymurgy: hey, Jeremy!
[13:01] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:02] Jeremy Linden: Hi Aargle.
[13:02] Aargle Zymurgy: any hot topics today?
[13:02] Eliza Janus: Hi, Arawn Spitteler. Nice to meet you.
[13:02] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Eliza
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: Maybe! I've been working on a project to condense the knowledge base into something more manageable. It'll still need a lot of work and revision, but here's where it's living: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Knowledge_Base_2
[13:03] Aargle Zymurgy: oh, something came up last night... this is probably more for Torley, though
[13:03] Jeremy Linden: What is it?
[13:04] Aargle Zymurgy: I was helping a noob and she was struggling with the basics of getting dressed.
[13:04] Eliza Janus: Hello, Echo Seigo, welcome.
[13:04] Aargle Zymurgy: I tried to find a good video on that, but the closest was something still aimed at the old client
[13:04] Aargle Zymurgy: and it was geared more toward attachments than clothing
[13:05] Jeremy Linden: Yeah, we're pretty behind on updating for Viewer 2. Hopefully I'll have some cycles to work on that soon, or maybe some helpful Residents will contribute to the wiki :-)
[13:05] Aargle Zymurgy: I've got a noob help area, but it they need ot know how to wear things.
[13:05] Eliza Janus: Hello, Calamity Hathaway. Nice to meet you.
[13:06] Calamity Hathaway: tx nice to meet you too
[13:06] Eliza Janus: Thank you.
[13:06] KittyCat Diesel: Mmm cupcakes
[13:06] Eliza Janus: Hello, Cummere Mayo. :-)
[13:06] Aargle Zymurgy: and speaking of wearing things, Cummere, I'm still trying to figure out that outfit of yours. :-)
[13:06] Jeremy Linden: I bashed together a quick guide on this subject at the beginning of the KB2 project. It's very brief, but I think it describes what you're trying to do: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/KB2/Editing_your_appearance
[13:07] Cummere Mayo: it looks better with the piece that refuses to rez today
[13:07] KittyCat Diesel: i think its called Kitty's Idea of HEaven outfit
[13:07] KittyCat Diesel: nom
[13:07] Aargle Zymurgy: http://www.geekstir.com/om-nom-nom
[13:07] Jeremy Linden: That is a lot of cupcakes.
[13:08] KittyCat Diesel: /me wants to pink one.... oh theres a few ... shame
[13:09] Aargle Zymurgy: of course, if I DO make my own video, I'll probably have links to my own sim.
[13:09] Jeremy Linden: /me is confused.
[13:09] Aargle Zymurgy: I have to admit I do a lot of self-promotion
[13:09] Jeremy Linden: Oh! For the wearing stuff thing.
[13:10] Aargle Zymurgy: LOL...
[13:10] Aargle Zymurgy: /me passes coffee to Jeremy
[13:10] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:10] Jeremy Linden: Well, there was cupcakes, and then a lolcat video...
[13:10] Cummere Mayo: okay
[13:10] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:10] Cummere Mayo: darn torley isnt shwoing up today?
[13:10] Cummere Mayo: i had a bone to pick with him
[13:10] Aargle Zymurgy: god... not bones again!
[13:11] Jeremy Linden: I can ask him... But I don't know if he wants his bones picked.
[13:11] Cummere Mayo: not those kind lol
[13:11] Aargle Zymurgy: I'm still squickish about the whole notion of eye-bones
[13:11] Aargle Zymurgy: I had to cope with those when doing animations before I came to SL
[13:11] Cummere Mayo: I jsut wnat to knwo why he had to go and and make a how to for greifers and fruad artists video
[13:11] Jeremy Linden: Which is this?
[13:11] Aargle Zymurgy: yeah... which vid is that?
[13:12] Cummere Mayo: the one on the dsiplay names wiki page that tells how to take someone else's user or display naem and make it your display name
[13:12] Aargle Zymurgy: /me pins on his official associate g-team member badge
[13:12] Aargle Zymurgy: oh! that one.
[13:13] Jeremy Linden: I hadn't seen that one yet...
[13:13] Jeremy Linden: /me watches
[13:14] Aargle Zymurgy: I'm not sure I want to blame Torley... more like blame M.... but he's gone. we can only burn him in effigy for that.
[13:14] Arawn Spitteler: M's come disguised as Cummere, and wants Torley to get the blame
[13:15] Aargle Zymurgy: /me chuckles
[13:15] Aargle Zymurgy: truly mystic as always, Arawn. :-)
[13:15] Jeremy Linden: Oh, I watched the wrong video...
[13:15] Simon Kline: lol
[13:15] Cummere Mayo: if you watch the second one and the first one
[13:15] Jeremy Linden: /me waits for "Copying another Residents display name to your clipboard"
[13:15] Arawn Spitteler: Where do we find the vid?
[13:15] KittyCat Diesel: om nom nom?
[13:15] KittyCat Diesel: ☆*¨¨*:• Giggle •:*¨¨*☆
[13:15] Cummere Mayo: sorry thrid one and first one
[13:16] Echo Seigo: display names aren't designed to be unique anyways
[13:16] Cummere Mayo: you can immediately copy complex names and then go to town greiging others
[13:16] Aargle Zymurgy: well, Lamorna and I are spearheading the backlash against the non-unique display names.
[13:16] Jeremy Linden: However, I should point out that it's the display name that's being copied, not the account (like all of ours right now) name.
[13:16] Echo Seigo: LL didn't invent copu-and-paste.
[13:16] Echo Seigo: err copy
[13:17] Cummere Mayo: no but no need to go out of the way to make impersonating easier
[13:17] Aargle Zymurgy: I need to find the picture I took of someone who cloned my avatar.
[13:17] Echo Seigo: it's not impersonationg if they cant change the account name
[13:17] Cummere Mayo: you can use that same method to copy the user name too jeremy
[13:17] Cummere Mayo has pinged you.
[13:17] Jeremy Linden: I'm pretty sure that's not why that feature is in there. Display names take unicode now, so display names can get really complicated. You might want to be able to write or say someone's name properly later :-)
[13:18] Aargle Zymurgy: complete with a glitch that crashed every client... including the linden who arrived in god-mode to try to fix the problem.
[13:18] Eliza Janus: Hello, Bronson.
[13:18] Cummere Mayo: echo it is impersonating if theycopy your look, your username into their display name and then go around pretending to be you
[13:18] Eliza Janus: Hello, Dotty.
[13:18] Cummere Mayo: several peopel have already reporteded seeing fake munchflowers and ivey's
[13:18] Aargle Zymurgy: hey, Bronson... you might move to the side
[13:19] Bronson Blackadder: sorry
[13:19] Aargle Zymurgy: np... just worried about the poor noob stuck hovering
[13:19] Eliza Janus: Hello, Dotty, nice to meet you.
[13:19] Aargle Zymurgy: hi dotty
[13:19] Echo Seigo: people need to understand to look at account names.
[13:19] Cummere Mayo: and not all nebies have the viewers set to show usernames
[13:19] Echo Seigo: Hopfully the kb talks about that.
[13:19] Aargle Zymurgy: well, Echo, that's the problem.
[13:20] Cummere Mayo: it shouldnt be an option. the veiwer should ALWAYS show the username
[13:20] Aargle Zymurgy: how do they know to do that when they can't figure out how to put on their clothes?
[13:20] Arawn Spitteler: Prioritization
[13:20] Aargle Zymurgy: worse yet, you walk up to a vendor to buy something......
[13:20] Aargle Zymurgy: you right click on it and choose "pay"
[13:21] Aargle Zymurgy: the box pops up and says "Do you wish to pay Vendor Owner $2500?" or whatever it says
[13:21] Aargle Zymurgy: but someone is wearing a giant invisicube and takes the money
[13:21] Aargle Zymurgy: that already happens some now WITHOUT display name confusion
[13:22] Jeremy Linden: We're working on it... There's a project underway now to overhaul the KB and SL Answers into something a lot more usable. There's a lot of good info in there now (including tips on avoiding the scenario Aargle just described), but it needs to be updated and reorganized.
[13:22] Aargle Zymurgy: that sounds a bit better, Jeremy
[13:22] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:22] Aargle Zymurgy: but when L$ is involved, those display names really need to be gone completely
[13:22] Cummere Mayo: heres two easy fixes... make usernames ALWAYS show up. no option to hide them
[13:22] Jeremy Linden: Well, here's the existing article... It's not new, but maybe not advertised well enough: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Shopping_Safety
[13:23] Cummere Mayo: and make display names be unable to clone usernames
[13:23] Aargle Zymurgy: in my line of work, I've seen alread seen tens of millions of L$ in fraud. I tend to be a little over-sensitive
[13:23] Jeremy Linden: Cummere, I'm sorry but this isn't really the place for feature suggestions, unless those features are part of SL's online help resources.
[13:23] Cummere Mayo: they were both already requested and flat out said no
[13:24] Cummere Mayo: so im waiting for someone to sue LL as an accessory to fraud
[13:24] Jeremy Linden: /me certainly can't program those features on his own! :-/
[13:24] Cummere Mayo: fromt he twitter thread: BitterlysweetC
[13:25] Aargle Zymurgy: Jeremy, I was going to have my own info about the debit permissions items
[13:25] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:25] Cummere Mayo: similar things on the forum. documentation to tell how to prevent froaud and spot these people is lacking jeremy
[13:25] Cummere Mayo has pinged you.
[13:25] Jeremy Linden: Does Viewer 2 handle debit permissions poorly? I remember it was a big deal when we put a big warning into viewer 1.
[13:26] Aargle Zymurgy: especially since that's what 99% of my things are.... you might encourage people to check longevity of an avatar in-word and payment info for the seller.
[13:26] Echo Seigo: you know, i've always wonders why during the SL installation it doesnt provide some basic kb about the in-world exp
[13:26] Cummere Mayo: yes it still handles them poorly
[13:26] Jeremy Linden: Me too, Echo. I've suggested it more than once :-)
[13:26] Calamity Hathaway: RL calls bye bye
[13:27] Jeremy Linden: Thanks for coming, Calamity.
[13:27] Echo Seigo: would be a nice time to intorduce some basic features like wearing prims on your head.
[13:27] Calamity Hathaway: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*You're Welcome!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
[13:27] Calamity Hathaway: :)
[13:28] Jeremy Linden: Or moving, chatting, finding events, etc. Yep.
[13:28] Cummere Mayo: aargle does your system you made have an option to boot ANYONE running a display name ?
[13:28] Aargle Zymurgy: hm... not *anyone*... though, I think that could be possible.
[13:28] Aargle Zymurgy: I'll discuss it with Lamorna
[13:29] Aargle Zymurgy: oh, how about adding this to that page, Jeremy:
[13:29] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:29] Jeremy Linden: Adding what to which page?
[13:30] Jeremy Linden: Are we talking about shopping or display names?
[13:30] Aargle Zymurgy: "Be suspicious of giving debit permissions to items created by people with recently created avatars, or that lack payment information on file"
[13:30] Cummere Mayo: well tehcnically i guess it would be eject anyone whose display name doesnt match user name, since if you dont have a display name the display name resorts to your user one
[13:30] Aargle Zymurgy: no, sorry... I'm going back to your shoppers warning page
[13:30] Aargle Zymurgy: gotcha,Cummere... though, that could get weird when their login name is "Dudly4732947.Resident"
[13:30] Jeremy Linden: Hm. What's wrong with people who haven't got payment info on file?
[13:31] Aargle Zymurgy: /me smiles
[13:31] Aargle Zymurgy: that's easy, Jeremy....
[13:31] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:31] Aargle Zymurgy: number one refuge for con artists is a new avatar with no direct connection to RL information
[13:31] Cummere Mayo: a sizeable minority of them tend to be scammers or greifers
[13:31] Jeremy Linden: /me doesn't have payment info on file.
[13:31] Cummere Mayo: especially now that LL no longer requires a rl name on avatar creation
[13:31] Aargle Zymurgy: no, but you've also got a Linden last name
[13:32] KittyCat Diesel: well ... i hate to be a pain... but yes, my alt has none but only cos paypal screwed up and got both my accounts frozen cos it didnt like multiple accounts registered
[13:32] KittyCat Diesel: some people have valid reason
[13:32] Cummere Mayo: i did say sizeable minority kittycat
[13:32] Arawn Spitteler: /me hadn't a bank account, when first in world
[13:33] Aargle Zymurgy: well, note that I didn't say "don't give permissions" just that I suggest being suspicious
[13:33] Cummere Mayo: most users without payment info are nice people
[13:33] Cummere Mayo: its the few that ruin it for anyone
[13:34] Aargle Zymurgy: oh, Cummere, I have no doubt about that at all.
[13:34] Cummere Mayo: it sjsut like MOST gteam members do their job right and will properly investigate complaints, but a few will ban without all the facts ruining the reputation for the rest..
[13:34] Aargle Zymurgy: however, when you're going to commit your entire L$ account to an object, you need to be cautious
[13:34] Cummere Mayo: both groups have a majority of good people, but the few bad ones require you to suspect both groups
[13:35] Aargle Zymurgy: and those people without payment are NOT typically creating such objects.
[13:35] Aargle Zymurgy: in my case, when I started selling for real, I bought land and got payment info on file.
[13:35] Cummere Mayo: /me waits for the hidden gteam member to ban her ass now
[13:35] Aargle Zymurgy: I didn't wanted to make sure I was a stable resident, not someone fly-by-night and there to do scamming
[13:37] Aargle Zymurgy: wow, I put that badly
[13:37] Aargle Zymurgy: ran 2 sentences together in my head
[13:37] Cummere Mayo: i still managed to get the jist of what you tried to day
[13:37] Arawn Spitteler: Wrecked two trains of thought?
[13:37] Aargle Zymurgy: I wanted to seem stable, yadda, yadda
[13:37] Aargle Zymurgy: sorry... I'm feeling a bit dizzy today
[13:40] Arawn Spitteler: If it's possible to impersonate, where the payment confirm window is concerned, that's quite a griefer op
[13:41] Cummere Mayo: i dunno if they fixed it back to where it only displays the username there
[13:41] Cummere Mayo: for a while it did have display name only there...
[13:43] Aargle Zymurgy: oh, what shows on your transaction history list? ... especially if the name can change on occasion?
[13:45] Jeremy Linden: Sadly, my knowledge of display names is incomplete. I haven't had a lot of time to play with it yet.
[13:46] Cummere Mayo: i think it shows username but im not certain
[13:46] Cummere Mayo: either way transaction hsitory does NOT use the new format
[13:46] Arawn Spitteler: /me'll have to try the latest Viewer 2, a little later
[13:46] Jeremy Linden: That would make the most sense, since user name is your unique account identifier.
[13:46] Cummere Mayo: wellit should use the new fomat that would make it easier
[13:46] Cummere Mayo: the fn.ln format
[13:47] Jeremy Linden: Until new folks start signing up without a distinct first and last name :-)
[13:47] Cummere Mayo: it would still work. last name will always be resident
[13:48] Cummere Mayo: so many people i know that were coming to sl will not now because of the new names
[13:48] Jeremy Linden: I'm a little surprised by that. They won't come to SL because they can choose any name they want?
[13:48] Cummere Mayo: they wont come becuase of the passord name effect
[13:49] Cummere Mayo: when everyones last name by default becomes resident
[13:49] Cummere Mayo: everyones names start looking like a fricken password
[13:49] Cummere Mayo: which drives people away
[13:49] Cummere Mayo: if you wanted to truely give flexability
[13:50] Cummere Mayo: just unexpire retired last names or better yet make the last name completely choosable at username creation
[13:50] Cummere Mayo: like an increasing number of online games and services are doing
[13:50] Arawn Spitteler: /me never considered Spitteler to be entirely flattering
[13:51] Cummere Mayo: do you really think someone wants to be adam1235faereasde69.resident?
[13:51] Cummere Mayo: even if thats only the user name and not the avatar display name really it does drive people away
[13:53] Aargle Zymurgy: ElectMeAsYourP.resident
[13:53] Jeremy Linden: That's one of the reasons we're offering display names... Your user name only serves to identify your unique account, but your display name is what you show the world. You don't have to be adam123faereasde69.resident inworld; you could change your username to Adam Resident.
[13:54] Cummere Mayo: yes but in world your username still has some sidgnificant things
[13:54] Aargle Zymurgy: well, Jeremy, I think I can speak for a lot of people in that we DO like that.... what we DON'T like is the free-for-all it can be and the level of fraud possible.
[13:54] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[13:54] Aargle Zymurgy: on IRC, for example, you can log in as you feel, but you can also register that name...
[13:55] Cummere Mayo: and plus i think as id fraud becomes more and more rampent and people start pulling accounts from LL until they make display names be unable to copy residents usernames the ability to select display names will be hampered
[13:55] Aargle Zymurgy: and as long as you use it regularly, your registered name is just yours and yours to keep
[13:55] Arawn Spitteler: Someone could take the name of Kitto Flora, and start selling non-fnctional locomotives.
[13:55] Aargle Zymurgy: agreed, Arawn... and I OWN Kitto's trains.
[13:56] Cummere Mayo: a smarter way would have just been to set up a system of (enter first name) (enter last name) -> your name is availible/unavailible
[13:56] Jeremy Linden: If display names become unique names too, I think they will be missing the point. It is perfectly possible for two people in the world to have the same name and not be fraudsters. Take this guy for instance: http://twitter.com/jeremylinden
[13:56] Jeremy Linden has pinged you.
[13:56] Jeremy Linden: That's not me, and my twitter feed has caused him trouble, but we coexist.
[13:56] Cummere Mayo: and what possible reason would there be for another cummere mayo?
[13:56] Aargle Zymurgy: yes, but nobody is giving him L$. :-)
[13:56] Arawn Spitteler: Try looking up Aaron Freeman, on Facebook, where I'm one of many in Connecticut
[13:57] Aargle Zymurgy: agreed, Cummere... and what possible reason could there be for naming yourself Aargle Zymurgy after this point other than for purposes of fraud
[13:57] Jeremy Linden: Yeah. Cummere Mayo might be a rather unique name in the world, but my real name, for instance, was taken in SL in 2005
[13:57] Cummere Mayo: and how many people really WANT to use their rl names?
[13:58] Aargle Zymurgy: if anything, the best bet would be to let residents specify any first and last name they like.
[13:58] Cummere Mayo: thats one fo the basics of any net safety course... NEVER use your rl name as your username or charactor name
[13:58] Jeremy Linden: Educators, students, businessfolk, and other groups with ties to real life would probably find the ability to use their real names useful.
[13:58] Cummere Mayo: msot students resist using their rl names
[13:58] Cummere Mayo: msot eductators not only resist it but fight it
[13:58] Aargle Zymurgy: exactly.. even given a choice I wouldn't use my real name here.
[13:59] Aargle Zymurgy: and I'm also an educator.
[13:59] Jeremy Linden: This isn't really my discussion to have. As I've said before, all I can do is report how it works :-)
[13:59] Aargle Zymurgy: though, no, I suppose I don't speak for educators everywhere.
[14:00] Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
[14:00] Cummere Mayo: maybe jermey but why is it that no one from LL would talk to any but a few when implementing display names
[14:00] Aargle Zymurgy: OH is oven in a minute anyways. Jeremy, please give some thought to my comments about avatar age and payment info in conjunction with debit perms
[14:00] Aargle Zymurgy has pinged you.
[14:00] Cummere Mayo: hell i was for them but not implimented this stupidly
[14:01] Jeremy Linden: Again, I don't know, Cummere. I don't have a lot of insight into how a lot of these decisions are made.
[14:01] Arawn Spitteler: Age can be gotten around, by stocking and saving
[14:01] Aargle Zymurgy: true, Arawn.
[14:01] Cummere Mayo: and i do hope that SOMEONE at LL understands that when fruad happens as a result of this system, LL is liable
[14:01] Cummere Mayo: and i need to go someone is skulking around my house
[14:01] Aargle Zymurgy: I'm not saying that my suggestion is absolute fraud prevention, but certainly a good thing to check
[14:01] Aargle Zymurgy: that's me, Cummere
[14:01] Aargle Zymurgy: j/k
[14:02] Arawn Spitteler: /me wants to visit Cummere's house and skulk
[14:02] Jeremy Linden: Take care, Cummere. I think our time's up anyhow.
[14:03] Cummere Mayo: it was a fed ex person lol
[14:03] Cummere Mayo: tc jeremy
[14:03] Cummere Mayo has pinged you.
[14:03] Aargle Zymurgy: ooh... love it when they show up.
[14:03] Jeremy Linden: Thanks for bringing your concerns. I'll be logging the transcript in the usual place.
[14:03] Aargle Zymurgy: them and UPS
[14:03] Cummere Mayo: so do i my new toy is here
[14:03] Aargle Zymurgy: they are doing a corporate merger....
[14:03] Aargle Zymurgy: going to become Fed UP
[14:03] Arawn Spitteler: Cummere has a handsome Divorcee?
[14:03] Cummere Mayo: i wish
[14:03] Aargle Zymurgy: /me laughs
[14:03] Cummere Mayo: but i have soemthing a bit better

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