Mesh/Archive/2011-05-16

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Agenda:

  1. I'm seeing alt-click (alt-zoom) weird behaviour in Mesh Development builds. In Mesh Dev group chat I got confirmed others see this as well. Is this known / already reported in JIRA / being worked on? (I couldn't verify this myself yet) --oobscure 04:14, 16 May 2011 (PDT)
  2. Can you give us an update on your recent progress and what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre]
  3. Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre]


Transcript for Monday May 16, 2011

[12:07] Rusalka Writer Aloha.
[12:07] Nyx Linden http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation,_Mesh_Import,_Scripting_User_Group
[12:08] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello Nyx
[12:08] davep (runitai.linden) yay, short agenda
[12:08] Nyx Linden greetings all, sorry I'm late, had another meeting run over
[12:08] Rusalka Writer Are there any jiras about odd camera movement?
[12:09] Moy (moy.loon) Like when it jitters up and down?
[12:09] Nyx Linden first topic: "I'm seeing alt-click (alt-zoom) weird behaviour in Mesh Development builds. In Mesh Dev group chat I got confirmed others see this as well. Is this known / already reported in JIRA / being worked on? (I couldn't verify this myself yet) --oobscure 04:14, 16 May 2011 (PDT) "
[12:09] davep (runitai.linden) define "weird"
[12:09] Rusalka Writer Panning across the distance, it will suddenly zoom in on something.
[12:10] Rusalka Writer Like it leaps across the sim to something that interests it.
[12:10] Reed (reed.steamroller) weird
[12:10] Reed (reed.steamroller) =
[12:10] Rusalka Writer Very.
[12:10] Reed (reed.steamroller) strange
[12:10] davep (runitai.linden) sounds like a broken raycast
[12:10] Rusalka Writer Disorienting.
[12:10] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) oh thats the raycast hitting a surface normal it doesnt like i thought
[12:10] davep (runitai.linden) going to need a repro
[12:10] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) yeah
[12:10] Rusalka Writer Yay, I found something that exists.
[12:11] Nyx Linden if there isn't a jira for that yet there should be :)
[12:11] Nyx Linden <hint hint>
[12:11] Rusalka Writer Noted.
[12:12] davep (runitai.linden) does it only happen for objects larger than 10m?
[12:12] Nyx Linden something we definitely should follow up on - thanks for letting us know!
[12:12] Rusalka Writer I've noticed it on large objects, but then I only just stumbled on it flying across the grid. Sim-scale cam.
[12:13] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) it also happens on really twisted prims
[12:13] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) its an old issue really
[12:13] davep (runitai.linden) ok, cool, thanks for the heads up on that
[12:13] Moy (moy.loon) If it's the one, where it thinks you're over an object, and you alt-cam on it, but the ray doesn't hit the prim you're expecting, it'll go until it hits something else
[12:14] Moy (moy.loon) And, it usually will either go as far as it can (the renderfarclip distance), or an object behind of it
[12:14] Rusalka Writer Sounds like it.
[12:14] robert Foxchase are mesh upload on main grid a long way off?
[12:14] Nyx Linden next topic: "Can you give us an update on your recent progress and what your current priorities are? [Vivienne Daguerre] "
[12:15] davep (runitai.linden) still working on the merge to viewer-development, unfortunately
[12:15] davep (runitai.linden) and working on mac issues WRT the merge
[12:15] Rusalka Writer Mac people give thanks.
[12:15] davep (runitai.linden) just out of curiosity, does anyone here have an ATI mac that can run shadows?
[12:16] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) I know someone who does, but I am not one of them :)
[12:16] Nyx Linden related to next topic "Is there anything in particular you need us to test? [Vivienne Daguerre] " :)
[12:16] Rusalka Writer I've never managed shadows.
[12:16] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) Of course, getting him to run a v2 viewer might be hard to do :D
[12:17] Nyx Linden (feel free to add topics in the background while we're discussing this btw - short agenda this week)
[12:18] Drongle McMahon Oh dear. Everyone's torsos keep inverting.
[12:18] davep (runitai.linden) ok, the next step for the merge will probably be to disable shadows for all ATI mac
[12:18] Second Life No room to sit here, try another spot.
[12:18] davep (runitai.linden) right now, enabling shadows on ATI mac causes a complete system freeze on every system we've tested
[12:18] Second Life No room to sit here, try another spot.
[12:18] Rusalka Writer Beauty.
[12:18] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) even mac pros?
[12:18] davep (runitai.linden) so the plan is to disable them until such time as we can make them work
[12:19] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) okay
[12:19] Nyx Linden need moar topics :)
[12:19] robert Foxchase when weariing a mesh av you'd still be able to wear prims as well at the same time right?
[12:19] davep (runitai.linden) watch STORM-1210 for status updates on the merge
[12:19] Jira Helper https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1210
[12:19] Jira Helper [#STORM-1210] Shining team sidebranch merge into trunk for mesh technology, SSE2, deferred rendering
[12:19] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) I saw in the agenda last week that the format is going to change, is there any ETA on that yet?
[12:20] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) well, archive of the chat last week
[12:20] davep (runitai.linden) the viewer work is done, and the simulator verifier is working, but we're blocked on a new upload path for testing
[12:20] davep (runitai.linden) so we've been testing the new format by manually running test objects through the verifier
[12:21] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) okay
[12:22] Ariel Erlanger wait, new format. are COLLADA files going away to be replaced with something else?
[12:22] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) No (In)
[12:22] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) its the internal format that is changing
[12:22] Nyx Linden internal format change, not input format change :)
[12:22] Ariel Erlanger ah gotcha
[12:22] Ariel Erlanger ^^
[12:22] Ariel Erlanger withdrawn!
[12:22] davep (runitai.linden) right, so the change will invalidate all currently rezzed meshes, you'll need to upload again
[12:22] Rusalka Writer Here's the camera bug, btw: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-580
[12:23] Nyx Linden whoo thanks!
[12:23] davep (runitai.linden) er, not currently rezzed, all uploaded meshes (is not rezzed Currently, all uploaded Meshes)
[12:23] Rusalka Writer Don't want to forget.
[12:23] davep (runitai.linden) so, even stuff in your inventory
[12:23] Rusalka Writer Oooh, inventory death.
[12:23] Rusalka Writer I had a pony in there, you know.
[12:23] robert Foxchase you would be able to wear not just a mesh but a sculpt or prim right?
[12:24] Rusalka Writer Yes, you can wear mesh with prims and sculpts.
[12:24] Drongle McMahon So we can all get nice new clean inventories.
[12:24] robert Foxchase at the same time
[12:24] Nyx Linden Robert - you should be able to wear meshes and prims at the same time
[12:24] robert Foxchase ok thanks
[12:24] Patnad RezzMe (patnad.babii) what about the charges and stuff as this been worked on?
[12:24] Imaze Rhiano sooo... that is why I am cloud?
[12:24] robert Foxchase someone asked me so I thought I'd ask
[12:24] Rusalka Writer You're not to me.
[12:24] Nyx Linden upload fees aren't finalized yet - we'll let you know when they are
[12:24] Rusalka Writer Turn on hardware skinning in your preference.
[12:25] Rusalka Writer Is that what it's called?
[12:25] Imaze Rhiano hardware skinning is on
[12:25] Rusalka Writer Hmmm... (Hmmm ...)
[12:25] Nyx Linden anyone have more topics, or should we wrap this up early?
[12:25] Vivienne Daguerre I noticed something when making some non-rigged shoes... the mirror in the build window no longer works. I had to mirror the shoe in ZBrush and upload the mirrored mesh a second time for the other shoe.
[12:26] Nyx Linden http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation,_Mesh_Import,_Scripting_User_Group
[12:26] Vivienne Daguerre I don't know if you are aware of that
[12:26] Imaze Rhiano when we get your bear, nyx?
[12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) They took out mirror on mesh a while back.
[12:26] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) yeah that is just for sculpts
[12:26] Vivienne Daguerre /me smiles...
[12:26] Vivienne Daguerre ah, ok... and the slow girl catches up
[12:27] Reed (reed.steamroller) are we being penalized for using predefined LoD as opposed to the auto-generated LoD provided by the viewer?
[12:27] Rusalka Writer I never use it on sculpties because so many people are on Viewer 1.
[12:27] Nyx Linden hand-tuned LOD is generally better than auto-generated :)
[12:27] Nyx Linden most important factor is how much each level is simplified compared to the previous
[12:28] Reed (reed.steamroller) because, I've setup models with correct LoD instead of using the LoD generator thingy, and almost as a rule my stuff is more prim costly that way
[12:28] Reed (reed.steamroller) which sort of sucks
[12:28] Nyx Linden how much are you simplifying each level?
[12:28] Drongle McMahon I bet they look better though, Reed.
[12:28] Reed (reed.steamroller) ok now i'm confused
[12:31] Reed (reed.steamroller) lol
[12:32] Reed (reed.steamroller) i guess me talking crashed teh sim
[12:32] Reed (reed.steamroller) anyway, explain this to me
[12:32] Rusalka Writer Not just me, then?
[12:33] Reed (reed.steamroller) even though every LoD is > 1/2 the verts/tris of the previous level, i still need to do simplification
[12:33] Drongle McMahon The default is 1/4
[12:33] Reed (reed.steamroller) 1/4
[12:34] Reed (reed.steamroller) holy crap
[12:34] Nyx Linden hey guys, sorry about that
[12:34] robert Foxchase happens
[12:34] And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith) well that was... fun
[12:34] Rusalka Writer Who kicked the surge suppressor?
[12:34] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) well I was going to ask about two sided rendering of meshes (when you only really have one side) for things like tree leaves
[12:34] robert Foxchase :)
[12:35] Rusalka Writer I've done sandwiched one-side meshes.
[12:35] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) then I was disconnected :)
[12:35] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) that doubles your vertex count
[12:35] Rusalka Writer Since it sounds like we won't see two-sided any time soon.
[12:35] Rusalka Writer Right.
[12:36] Rusalka Writer I'd vote for two-sided, of course.
[12:36] Rusalka Writer But I think it
[12:36] Rusalka Writer it's been shot down.
[12:36] Rusalka Writer Echo....
[12:36] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) wasnt sure if someone suggested it before, its a feature in just about every other engine I use
[12:36] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I thought they said they'd look at it when materials come.
[12:37] Rusalka Writer I'd love it. Hunting down reversed normals is a pain.
[12:37] Ariel Erlanger i'm not sure if opengl supports two sided meshes natively for single tringles (as opposed to the whole scene)
[12:37] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) its not for reversed normals
[12:37] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) its for things like a tree shader
[12:37] Drongle McMahon I thought the problem was anticipation of people using two sides when they didn't need them.
[12:37] Rusalka Writer No, but it would help there, too.
[12:37] Falcon Linden By the way, here's some physics news:
[12:37] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) I prefer to get my normals right :)
[12:37] Falcon Linden Make sure your physics meshes have consistent counter-clockwise winding
[12:38] Drongle McMahon Ah Physics new :-)
[12:38] Falcon Linden (for best performance)
[12:38] Drongle McMahon What does that mean?
[12:38] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) counter-clockwise winding?
[12:38] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) thanks Falcon
[12:38] Moy (moy.loon) Are they one-sided tris now?
[12:38] Falcon Linden no, they'll collide from both sides, but we need to know the winding to generate correct normals at the edges
[12:38] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Does that refer to the order pf the indices?
[12:39] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *of
[12:39] Moy (moy.loon) Ah
[12:39] Falcon Linden yes, Asha
[12:39] Moy (moy.loon) So, that means the "random normals" thing is fixed? ;)
[12:39] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ah ok
[12:39] Falcon Linden Moy: should be improved, depending on what you're referring to
[12:39] Moy (moy.loon) What about on normal prims? for raycasting against?
[12:39] Falcon Linden no change to normal prims
[12:39] Nyx Linden sounds like there are two different conversations going on here, and they're colliding with each other :)
[12:40] Drongle McMahon I still don't know what counter-clockwise winding is :-(
[12:40] Falcon Linden To clarify, we don't support double sided triangles for render, but all physics triangles are double sided
[12:40] Ariel Erlanger actually i sort of wonder, as long as we're adding agenda items, do meshes display in opengl just by rendering each triangle seperately? or is there an optimization step to try to make strips out of them?
[12:41] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) that's going to mean I still use sculpts for tree leaves :)
[12:41] Moy (moy.loon) VBOs of verts, normals, and indicies (VBO of green, normals, and Indicies)
[12:41] davep (runitai.linden) Ariel: we don't use triangle strips as they're not general purpose
[12:41] Nyx Linden or just create a second triangle with a flipped normal Hypatia :)
[12:41] davep (runitai.linden) we DO however optimize triangle index arrays for cache coherency
[12:41] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) cheaper to use sculpts
[12:42] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) I can use one or two sculpts and do all the leaves :)
[12:42] Ariel Erlanger davep: ok thank you!
[12:43] Moy (moy.loon) Sculpts don't look as good though Hypatia, Because you have poor normals, poor UVs, and poor precision
[12:43] Nyx Linden and poor LOD on sculpts
[12:43] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) yeah, but people dont care, they want low prim
[12:43] Rusalka Writer And take time to rez.
[12:43] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Some people care.
[12:43] Falcon Linden Apparently we'll ensure correct winding in the viewer without user intervention as long as winding is consistent (which you'll know if you can see the physics mesh properly in the preview)
[12:43] davep (runitai.linden) actually did two implementations -- triangle strips and cache optimized lists
[12:43] davep (runitai.linden) cache optimized lists was faster
[12:43] Rusalka Writer Some day our prim counts will come...
[12:43] Moy (moy.loon) You can make better looking things, with low poly mesh, and decent texture work, than you can with loads of sculpties
[12:44] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) its not low poly if you have to duplicate all the faces :)
[12:44] Rusalka Writer Go to a busy sim and wait for the sculpties to rez. Bring a sandwich.
[12:44] Nyx Linden any other topics we need to cover or should we wrap up early?
[12:44] davep (runitai.linden) hypatia: some day we'll add a check box for "double sided"
[12:44] Falcon Linden You should be able to make leaves with 4 single-sided tris
[12:44] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) That depends how many faces you have in total.
[12:44] davep (runitai.linden) but not today
[12:44] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) thanks dave :)
[12:44] Rusalka Writer Prim counts? ARC?
[12:44] Falcon Linden Or two, really...depending on shape/size...
[12:44] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) someday is better than no :)
[12:45] Nyx Linden Still working on ARC Rusaika, needs some more time to brew :)
[12:45] Rusalka Writer Groovy.
[12:45] Rusalka Writer Ponies?
[12:45] Rusalka Writer When do our inventories get wiped?
[12:45] Drongle McMahon Falcon, can you make a wiki page telling us how to make consistent counter-clockwise winding?
[12:45] Nyx Linden inventories don't get wiped, the meshes just will fail to rez
[12:45] Rusalka Writer Ah.
[12:45] davep (runitai.linden) and we'll let you know when we know
[12:46] Rusalka Writer Cool.
[12:46] Moy (moy.loon) I would assume most collada exporters will do it fine, aslong as all of your normals are facing the right way
[12:47] Falcon Linden Exactly, Moy. Just make sure the normals are facing the right way
[12:47] Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto) I havent had normal problems at all with mesh, guess its my application
[12:47] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) That's easy enough.
[12:48] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) I uploaded some to test with the Opensim release, looked good there too :)
[12:49] Rusalka Writer Any other issues?
[12:49] Nyx Linden ok guys, we have another meeting to get to
[12:49] Drongle McMahon Ah yues. I had some upload failures with plane physics pieces with inconsistent normals.
[12:50] Œ•œÄŒ±œÑŒØŒ± ŒöŒ±ŒªŒªŒπœÉœÑœé (hypatia.callisto) thanks for the info :)
[12:50] Nyx Linden thanks everyone for coming out!
[12:50] Vivienne Daguerre bye all
[12:50] Vir Linden bye
[12:50] davep (runitai.linden) thanks guys
[12:50] Falcon Linden Cheers'
[12:50] robert Foxchase thanks
[12:50] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Adios Lindens
[12:50] Skygirl Kline byes
[12:50] Rusalka Writer Mahalo for the meeting.
[12:50] Rusalka Writer Aloha!
[12:50] Ariel Erlanger thanks again! see you next week.
[12:50] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) thank you Lindens.
[12:50] And all i got was this lousy DN (tankmaster.finesmith) tc everyone
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