Mesh/Archive/2011-06-27

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Agenda

  1. Figuring out a sane and conservative way to implement "set by UUID" for Meshes, builtin delay by link set for example, to prevent excessive mesh swapping/animating attempts, yet allow loading and unloading a mesh for legitimate uses.--Kyrah Abattoir 14:33, 21 June 2011 (PDT)
  2. Why is the root of a linkset not able to have physics shape type "None"? [Drongle McMahon]
  3. Will the new sculpty normalised triangle area limit be increased so that my ladders (and potentially other existing content) are not destroyed on release? (http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/World-record-broken/m-p/918175/highlight/true#M1544)[Drongle]
  4. "SL meshes are essentially static objects": does it mean they would perform poorly when used in vehicles ? How are mesh vehicles expected to behave in region crossings ? [Bunnie Mills]
  5. Is the license of the llm file of the Viewer LGPL? Or is it CC BY 3.0? Second Life avatar meshes:http://static.secondlife.com/downloads/avatar/avatar_mesh.zip returns 404. So I can't get avatara morph and joint data.[Yuzuru Jewell]
  6. Does the mesh uploader/SL interpret the Bind Poses Array differently based on the avatar joint name format and/or the Authoring Tool name. I ask this because I cannot see why names only should change the worn appearance see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-660. [Chodai Yoshikawa]
  7. Is it too late to propose an alternative to the prim equivilance system being implemented? Two people did so: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/A-draft-to-end-PEwt-discussions-The-resource-point-system/td-p/945759 http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/One-metric-is-not-enough/td-p/948895 (Tapple Gao)
  8. Why is the Server cost of the first mesh object 1.5 instead of 1 only ? (Why can't we make meshes with PE=1 ?) (gaia clary)
  9. How do we fix the link to the meeting location on the Office Hours page? (Nalates Urriah)



Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday June 27, 2011

[12:01] Tapple Gao most SH issius are viewable by lindens only
[12:02] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 'Ello 'ello
[12:02] Prep Linden hi folks!
[12:02] Ranya Palmer hi everybody
[12:02] Drongle McMahon You can set that in the Edit Advanced tab.
[12:02] Tapple Gao hello mr prep
[12:02] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) hello
[12:03] davep (runitai.linden) change blue
[12:03] Charlar Linden We'll start in just a sexc..
[12:03] Charlar Linden oops
[12:03] Charlar Linden sec.
[12:04] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) ah... sometimes typos can be epic :3
[12:04] Lazy (lazy.spectre)
[12:04] Dain Shan We dosent mentioned something about a freudian slip ... yet
[12:04] Charlar Linden Agenda: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:05] Charlar Linden Figuring out a sane and conservative way to implement "set by UUID" for Meshes, builtin delay by link set for example, to prevent excessive mesh swapping/animating attempts, yet allow loading and unloading a mesh for legitimate uses.--Kyrah Abattoir 14:33, 21 June 2011 (PDT)
[12:05] Kyrah Abattoir that's me
[12:05] Nyx Linden There are a number of technical reasons why we can't implement that aside from preventing the inefficient animaiton case
[12:06] Kyrah Abattoir Care to explain?
[12:06] Nyx Linden our server isn't able to swap the mesh shape on the fly without causing significant stability problems
[12:06] Latif Khalifa lol
[12:06] Nyx Linden we did some experimentation with this early on and ran into all manner of performance and stability issues
[12:06] Kyrah Abattoir That would set a precedent where meshes , while being the most advanced type of primitive would be the less flexible.
[12:08] Charlar Linden This also an advantage for protecting your work from theft. It doesn't solve it, but it does make things somewhat more secure.
[12:08] Latif Khalifa lol again
[12:08] Kyrah Abattoir not really Charlar, my proposal was only to "set" meshes, not grab their uuid from an existing one
[12:08] Kyrah Abattoir you would only risk to lose mesh uuid that you accept to.
[12:08] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) Kyrah: they did. Initially, the mesh asset was a separate inventory item like a sculpt map that you could drop into a prim and have it take the shape
[12:09] Kyrah Abattoir i know i was there
[12:09] Gaia Clary i found that feature very usefull
[12:09] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) I'd heard it mentione din previous meetings that they had to disable it 'cause it caused sim crashes
[12:09] Kyrah Abattoir So , lets assume it was possible to solve this isntability issue
[12:10] davep (runitai.linden) "maybe someday" but certainly not now
[12:10] Nyx Linden sorry we can't enable this feature.
[12:10] Tapple Gao won't happen before release at least
[12:10] Kyrah Abattoir good, as long as it's someday and not "out of the question"
[12:10] Charlar Linden it's bad to assume things like that
[12:10] Nyx Linden we're focused on whats absolutely necessary to get the basic functionality out the door right now
[12:10] davep (runitai.linden) it's "probably never"
[12:10] davep (runitai.linden) almost certainly never, and definitely not now
[12:10] Latif Khalifa runtai, or until you get some adult supervision ;)
[12:11] Vivienne Daguerre can we keep things polite please?
[12:11] Kyrah Abattoir probably never is bad i can't even see from a programming standpoint what the blocking element can be... other than terrible programming...
[12:11] Vivienne Daguerre no need for personal attacks and insults
[12:11] Drongle McMahon Is there a public list of what's absolutely necessary?
[12:11] Kyrah Abattoir and if it's physics, then it could be allowed for mesh with no physical shape
[12:11] Nyx Linden right now? mainly stability
[12:12] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) like attachments, you mean?
[12:12] Nyx Linden so for the first topic, the answer is definitely not now, low chance of enabling it in the future.
[12:12] Drongle McMahon Consistent PEwts?
[12:12] Kyrah Abattoir but if unloading and loading meshes was an issue there wouldn't be much games out there...
[12:12] Kyrah Abattoir but thanks for the positive answer Nyx
[12:13] Charlar Linden OK, let's move on?
[12:13] Latif Khalifa or rezzing/drezzing objects in sl
[12:13] Charlar Linden Why is the root of a linkset not able to have physics shape type "None"? [Drongle McMahon]
[12:13] Nyx Linden we need to ensure that at least one prim in the linkset has a non-none physics type
[12:13] Nyx Linden so we enforce that the root prim must be non-none
[12:13] Tapple Gao why?
[12:14] Drongle McMahon Why at least one?
[12:14] Nyx Linden every object needs *some* physical representation
[12:14] Tapple Gao attachments don't
[12:14] Drongle McMahon Why?
[12:14] Nyx Linden I'll defer on the details to Falcon :)
[12:14] Nyx Linden but that's what I've been informed is the restriction we have to work with
[12:15] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) I really don't understand this, but why doesn't setting the thing to Phantom work?
[12:15] Drongle McMahon I don't mean to dispute it, just interested.
[12:15] davep (runitai.linden) when you set it to phantom, a physics proxy still exists
[12:15] Charlar Linden We'll get more details from Falcon and pass them on.
[12:15] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) I mean, what does that do that having it all be 'none' doesn't?
[12:15] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) okay
[12:16] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) ...so 'all-none' makes it invisiblr to the physics system completely
[12:16] Drongle McMahon Phantom infects the whole linkset.
[12:16] davep (runitai.linden) the sim relies on a physics proxy for things like streaming and parcel return -- this is something that should probably be documented on the wiki if it isn't already
[12:16] Drongle McMahon None doesn't.
[12:16] Tapple Gao is there a forum topic to direct falcon to and post there?
[12:16] Nyx Linden I don't believe so, please feel free to start one :)
[12:16] Charlar Linden next item?
[12:16] Drongle McMahon That would be nice ... to document it.
[12:17] Charlar Linden Will the new sculpty normalised triangle area limit be increased so that my ladders (and potentially other existing content) are not destroyed on release? [Drongle]
[12:17] Drongle McMahon Not on the official forum, as far as I know.
[12:17] davep (runitai.linden) drongle: looks like there will be one viewer version released that will break that ladder, but it should be fixed in the next version
[12:18] Drongle McMahon Who said that? Names vanished :-(
[12:18] Gaia Clary "sculpty normalised triangle area limit" ? Where can i read about that ?
[12:18] Drongle McMahon On Aditi?
[12:18] Tapple Gao runtai/davep
[12:19] Eleanora Newell oh, glad to know i am not the only one who can't see any names
[12:19] Drongle McMahon Gaia .. the limit is active here if you want to test.
[12:19] davep (runitai.linden) on agni, unfortunately
[12:19] Gaia Clary i want to know what it IS... i have no idea ...
[12:19] Drongle McMahon Arrggh.
[12:19] arton Rotaru LOL
[12:19] Drongle McMahon I mentioned it in the forums.
[12:19] Nyx Linden some sculpts have a massive amount of surface area which creates bad performance and stability problems
[12:19] arton Rotaru why can't it be fixed before release
[12:20] davep (runitai.linden) actually, it's probably only going to be broken in a beta version
[12:20] Nyx Linden we have a fix for it, and are tweaking it so that it doesn't break content, but that takes some time to get the tweaks just right
[12:20] davep (runitai.linden) (unless it's broken in 2.7.2)
[12:20] arton Rotaru OK,
[12:20] Eleanora Newell how do we determine good and bad sculpts?
[12:20] arton Rotaru yyeah, whats the number?
[12:21] davep (runitai.linden) bad sculpts will only ever show as a sphere and a warning will emit to the log
[12:21] Tapple Gao put the forum url on the agenda drongle, and perhaps runtai can comment on it later
[12:21] Eleanora Newell but no way to know how to prevent this before going through time and trouble to make them to find out they're "broken" in sl?
[12:22] Drongle McMahon I'm trying to find it....
[12:22] Nyx Linden very very few sculpts are actually problematic.
[12:22] davep (runitai.linden) once we get the number right, it should be impossible to accidentally make something that's broken
[12:23] arton Rotaru how is this check working, by uploading an image
[12:23] Charlar Linden ok, lets keep going...
[12:23] Charlar Linden 4. "SL meshes are essentially static objects": does it mean they would perform poorly when used in vehicles ? How are mesh vehicles expected to behave in region crossings ? [Bunnie Mills]
[12:24] arton Rotaru good question
[12:24] Nyx Linden where are you getting that quite from btw? I don't recognize the context around it?
[12:24] Nyx Linden *quote
[12:24] Bloodsong Termagant isnt that related to the uuid swapping thing?
[12:24] Bloodsong Termagant (well, sounds like, to me)
[12:24] Bunnie Mills it was about manipulation of meshes
[12:24] Nyx Linden trying to figure out what is meant by "static" in this context
[12:24] arton Rotaru a car for example
[12:24] Bunnie Mills yes, inworld manipulations
[12:24] arton Rotaru crossing a border
[12:25] Nyx Linden mesh vehicles should perform just fine, if not better than prim vehicles
[12:25] Bunnie Mills yet the word static rang a bell, hence the question
[12:25] Nyx Linden that's a completely separate issue than modifying a mesh after import
[12:26] Bunnie Mills ok... yet you introduce the mesh into a new sim, much like invoking its UUID by script ?
[12:26] davep (runitai.linden) it's a completely different code path than swapping a UUID
[12:26] Drongle McMahon sculpty filter thing : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/World-record-broken/m-p/918175/highlight/true#M1544
[12:26] Bunnie Mills by crossing
[12:26] davep (runitai.linden) setting an ID by script doesn't invoke the rez pipeline
[12:26] Ravelli Ormstein thank you for the link
[12:26] Bunnie Mills ok thank you
[12:27] Charlar Linden next
[12:27] Charlar Linden 5. Is the license of the llm file of the Viewer LGPL? Or is it CC BY 3.0? Second Life avatar meshes:http://static.secondlife.com/downloads/avatar/avatar_mesh.zip returns 404. So I can't get avatara morph and joint data.[Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:27] Nyx Linden where is that link coming from?
[12:28] Bunnie Mills i had the same 404
[12:28] Nyx Linden I'll look into what the license should be and circle back, but in case I need to update the link, where did you find it?
[12:28] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Please wait. I found it form wiki.
[12:28] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) from https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Clothing_Tutorials
[12:29] Dain Shan By the way .. just as a sidenote .. the avatar link on the animation site is broken too
[12:29] Eleanora Newell drongle, do you have a jira for that breaking issue?
[12:29] Nyx Linden ok, I'll look into why the link is broken and what the license for that download should be. Thanks for bringing it to my attention :)
[12:30] Drongle McMahon No. I didn't do a jira. Just sent a broken sculptmap to Runitai/Davep.
[12:30] davep (runitai.linden) kk, I'll make a jira
[12:30] Drongle McMahon Should I do a jira?
[12:30] Drongle McMahon OK
[12:30] Charlar Linden onward
[12:31] Charlar Linden 6. Does the mesh uploader/SL interpret the Bind Poses Array differently based on the avatar joint name format and/or the Authoring Tool name. I ask this because I cannot see why names only should change the worn appearance see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-660. [Chodai Yoshikawa]
[12:31] Prep Linden The mesh importer does not interpret the joint array differently based upon either the naming or the authoring tool.
[12:31] Prep Linden The mesh importer does not interpret the joint array differently based upon the authoring tool. We do use the joint names
[12:32] davep (runitai.linden) SH-1926 created
[12:32] davep (runitai.linden) https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-1926
[12:32] Gaia Clary Permission Violation
[12:32] davep (runitai.linden) yay!
[12:32] Ravelli Ormstein same here
[12:33] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) it's SH... nobody but Lindens can see it
[12:33] Drongle McMahon Shhhh!
[12:33] davep (runitai.linden) try again
[12:33] Ravelli Ormstein works
[12:33] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) that's one thing that kinda bugs me... the build changes list SH issues for fixes, but we never know what they are if they were CTS items originlly
[12:34] arton Rotaru true
[12:34] Charlar Linden OK - next.
[12:34] Charlar Linden 7. Is it too late to propose an alternative to the prim equivilance system being implemented? Two people did so: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/A-draft-to-end-PEwt-discussions-The-resource-point-system/td-p/945759 http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/One-metric-is-not-enough/td-p/948895 (Tapple Gao)
[12:34] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) that's a minor thing that could be done to give us users a much better idea of what was fixed or worked on
[12:34] Nyx Linden yes, its too late :(
[12:34] Penny Patton My main concerns as far as that one goes are 1) making sure efficiently polygon-wise builds remain more efficient as far as prim costs go. Otherwise people will wind up using horribly inefficient sculpts to do what could be done more efficiently with mesh. Also 2) Not tying script limits to prim counts. Which is kinda like enforcing speed limits based on car emissions. Yes, you need limits for both, but letting a car speed 99mph through a school zone because it has lower emissions and forcing a high emission car to putter across the highway at 20mph makes no sense.
[12:35] Charlar Linden fast typist
[12:35] Charlar Linden :-)
[12:35] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) much agreed
[12:35] Lazy (lazy.spectre) +1
[12:35] Penny Patton /me spent 10 years at a typing job. c___c Also had half of that typed up already. c______c
[12:35] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) right now, the costs/weights hamstring mesh FAR too badly
[12:36] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Totally agree with Penny on that...especially concerning scripts
[12:36] Bloodsong Termagant um... i thought scripts saw meshes as 1 prim in the linkset.
[12:36] Latif Khalifa yeah, prim cost with script and scale as factors for mesh only makes no sense
[12:36] Bloodsong Termagant or you talking scripts IN meshes make the meshes cost more prims?
[12:36] Drongle McMahon Good analogy Penny.
[12:36] Tapple Gao the issue, bloodsong, is that adding a script to some meshes doubles the prim count
[12:36] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) that too
[12:36] Latif Khalifa Bloodsong, scripted mesh costs more "prims" than unscripted ones
[12:37] Bloodsong Termagant that's just silly.
[12:37] Nyx Linden whether a prim is dynamic or not affects its server processing time
[12:37] Tapple Gao most things are here bloodsong
[12:37] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) i thoguht meshes were always "static"
[12:37] Nyx Linden dynamic being scripted or physical. Its not a measure of script load, but of the liklihood of it generating a lot of objectupdate messages
[12:37] arton Rotaru kust make the overall mesh prim count a bit lower than it is now, and most of us are happy
[12:38] arton Rotaru just*
[12:38] Bloodsong Termagant so... slap a box on it with a script that uses llsetlinkparamthingydoodles?
[12:38] Drongle McMahon Why all these strangling restrictions for rezzed mesh and none for attachments?
[12:38] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) then what is it about a single llTargetOmega on a non-physical mesh that makes it cost twice as much?
[12:38] Tapple Gao would be nice to be able to look at an object and ask it "how many script wakeups/object updates" is it causing
[12:38] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) The restrictions aren't just for rezzed mesh.
[12:38] Drongle McMahon No Ash?
[12:38] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) I mean, how many ObjectUpdates does a TargetOmega cause?
[12:39] Latif Khalifa Asha, prim cost only applies to rezzed mesh
[12:39] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) No
[12:39] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) if the object isn't set physical, anyway
[12:39] Latif Khalifa tiberiouis, only one for non physical target omega
[12:39] davep (runitai.linden) Drongle: because you can mute avatars and remove them from your viewer
[12:39] Drongle McMahon What attachment restrictions are there?
[12:39] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) when you have 255 prims per attachment point i think you need to worry about prim cost a little less...
[12:39] Nyx Linden also we haven't gotten to a point where we're ready to do a better job of limiting avatar complexity yet
[12:40] Drongle McMahon I can shrink my draw distance and set renderrVolumeLODFactor to zero,,,,
[12:40] arton Rotaru ok, lets ban avatars^^
[12:40] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Sure. But, worn mesh has other handicaps...like scale... reduced functionality because of no UUID swapping.... no scaling..etc. So no, worn mesh didn't get off free.
[12:40] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) so we're still going to have 100-torus hairs and multi-sculpt builds
[12:40] arton Rotaru +1 Drongle
[12:41] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) Phoenix has Derender
[12:41] Bloodsong Termagant torus schmorus, its those flexi cylinders.
[12:41] Drongle McMahon I'm developing sculpty building components because they are so much cheaper.
[12:41] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) those too
[12:41] Penny Patton Will these script costs be applied back to regular prims or just mesh. I wasn't sure on that point.
[12:41] Nyx Linden https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Costs_and_fees
[12:41] Tapple Gao hopefully all prims
[12:42] Vivienne Daguerre Technology development moves faster and faster. I think we are worrying about a problem that will take care of itself in a year or two.
[12:42] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) ...if mesh keeps getting wrecked like this, nobody'll use it
[12:42] Vivienne Daguerre Put money into staying on the cutting edge of server technology and we will be fine
[12:42] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) It's just mesh that is applies to Penny.
[12:43] Nyx Linden only things that use the new accounting system. So meshes, prims that use the new shape types, or anything linked to the first two categories
[12:43] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) ...outside of avatars or things sculpts Just Can't Do
[12:43] Tapple Gao maybe hiking mesh costs up is how this will all get stable: high gosts = no mesh = stable grid
[12:43] Kyrah Abattoir and i was hoping to get rid of sculpts...
[12:43] Leonel Iceghost also people could start to abuse llRemoteLoadScriptPin which is not good
[12:43] Dain Shan So .. were still at the more sculpts rage ..
[12:43] arton Rotaru no prims, no scripts, no login at all, that helps alot
[12:43] Drongle McMahon Who would be silly enough to use the new shape types for a prim when they already have the most resource hungry type for no cost?
[12:44] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) and with hacks for sculpts out there (the 8-face baloon, anyone?), there's less and less it 'can't do'
[12:44] Drongle McMahon Nobody will link prims to meshes either.
[12:44] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Very true Drongle
[12:44] arton Rotaru you better don't do
[12:44] Bunnie Mills why ?
[12:44] Bunnie Mills say for architecture builds
[12:44] arton Rotaru cost increase
[12:45] arton Rotaru possible cost increase*
[12:45] Drongle McMahon Because it can increase the cost hundreds of fold.
[12:45] Bunnie Mills by design ?
[12:45] Bunnie Mills : P
[12:45] Nyx Linden anyways, to loop it back, it is in fact too late to change the framework of the accounting system for first release. We're still looking at tweaking our cost formulas.
[12:45] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) TOO LATE TO CHANGE IT. ROLL WITH IT ANYWAY
[12:45] Lazy (lazy.spectre) tweak lower plz:)
[12:45] Ranya Palmer linking a mesh to a prim is not as bad as you think
[12:45] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) 2 years later. oops need ot change it but cant because breaks existing content!
[12:46] Penny Patton To be fair, Nyx said "first release", meaning it could change over time.
[12:46] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) bingo
[12:46] Drongle McMahon How far away from final tweaks do you think you are?
[12:46] Bloodsong Termagant or 'dont be an early developer' :X
[12:46] Charlar Linden OK, time move on...
[12:46] arton Rotaru what about the upload fee?
[12:46] Charlar Linden 8. Why is the Server cost of the first mesh object 1.5 instead of 1 only ? (Why can't we make meshes with PE=1 ?) (gaia clary)
[12:46] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) Penny: do you remember when Windlight was new? they said "a future release will have settings sharing"
[12:47] Tapple Gao everybody still dislikes viewer 2 because of the bad first impression left by 2.0, which were fixed soon after release. bad first impressions are killer
[12:47] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) what was that... '09?
[12:47] Penny Patton Yellow: Touche.
[12:47] Drongle McMahon 1L$ per vertex?
[12:47] arton Rotaru yeah
[12:47] arton Rotaru 10/vert^^
[12:47] Nyx Linden there's an element of server load that is per-linkset (object) and another part that is per-prim. So a single prim object has both costs.
[12:47] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) and even Phoenix getting it in hasn't spurred the devs to make it official
[12:48] arton Rotaru this will take ages till residents have that down Nyx
[12:48] Gaia Clary Nyx i understand what you say, i asked WHY you do so ... ;-)
[12:48] Nyx Linden the numbers currently are 1.0 per object and 0.5 per prim
[12:48] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) so essentially, what we get at first release IS what we're always going to have
[12:48] Nyx Linden why the numbers are set to those numbers, or why its structured that way?
[12:48] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) the track record is there
[12:48] Gaia Clary Why cant we get meshes which cost 1 Prim ponly ...
[12:49] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) WHy is it structured that way?
[12:49] arton Rotaru because they don't want to
[12:49] Drongle McMahon Because mesh must be punished Gaia.
[12:49] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) agreed. Meshes that are simple enough shouldn't cost more than a prim
[12:49] arton Rotaru mesh can be simple enough*
[12:49] Kyrah Abattoir Pordon me if i sound sarcastic but it feels like, at Linden Labs meshes are like some sort of demonic beast that they are absolutely frightened of.
[12:49] arton Rotaru but don't have to
[12:50] Gaia Clary if you would give an explanation why meshes cost 2 prims at minimum, that would give me the chance to explain in my tutorials why it is GOOD to do meshes...
[12:50] davep (runitai.linden) if it's part of a link set, one of the individual meshes will cost less than one prim
[12:50] davep (runitai.linden) but there's overhead associated with each "object" (root prim)
[12:50] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) 2.0 PEwt
[12:50] davep (runitai.linden) and by "will" I mean "can" if it's simple enough
[12:50] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) for 20 triangles, 12 verts
[12:50] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) So, you are saying the overhead for even a mesh with 12 triangles is at least 2 prims?
[12:50] arton Rotaru so make sure you put enough verts in your 2PE meshes
[12:51] Tapple Gao I really think this punishment should be applied to all prims, not just meshes
[12:51] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) amen to THAT
[12:51] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) i dont think its the mesh that really has anything to do with it. its just being nerfed due to the new prim accounting system that someone though was a great idea.
[12:51] Penny Patton Let's be fair here. LL is trying to shoehorn mesh into a decade old system made without mesh in mind. There may be some background information we're not immediately aware of that they need to compensate for. I'd just like to understand what that background information is.
[12:51] Gaia Clary it is very hard to develop a good strategy for building with these numbers ...
[12:52] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) cant apply the "punishment" to all prims because of eixisting content
[12:52] Dain Shan Basically .. you cant Gaia
[12:52] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) I mean, I could probably add more to this as well as UV mapping, and still have the same PEwt
[12:52] Drongle McMahon We have non-additive mathsYes, mesh are paying for the resource profligacy of legacy prims.
[12:52] arton Rotaru the new accounting is great, o question. Only problem is, there is still another^^
[12:52] Dain Shan For simple things there always will be a sculpt..
[12:52] Gaia Clary if LL would tell us what causes these decisions, it would be fine for me.
[12:52] Tapple Gao I just want to see linden lab drive away all the residents with this yellow alloy
[12:52] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) but let's see how many people start abusing toruses when they're more than 1Pewt
[12:52] Gaia Clary i only want to understand WHY. nothing else ...
[12:53] Nyx Linden because that's what our overhead is quite frankly :)
[12:53] davep (runitai.linden) it's... complicated
[12:53] Kyrah Abattoir funny how i suggested that all prims where not equal in weight and everybody laughed at my face... yeap that was 4 years ago
[12:53] Charlar Linden Penny, you are on the right track, and we have talked about it in previous usergroups. I don't want to rehash it again. The devs (who are very devoted to Mesh), need to get back to fixing bugs.
[12:53] Angel (angel.alphaville) obviously the "prims" per parcel tiers will change too, right ?
[12:53] davep (runitai.linden) the rez pipeline has to load meshes from the asset server, which is something it doesn't have to do for prims
[12:53] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) increase region prim limit by 2x - apply "punishment" to all prims ?
[12:53] davep (runitai.linden) there are also complications around the physics data that are different from prims
[12:54] Latif Khalifa runtai for the geometry. the total cost will be far offset by the textures
[12:54] Gaia Clary ah... that gives me some hints....
[12:54] davep (runitai.linden) and, frankly, a lot of these accounting changes are things we've wanted to put it in for a long time but couldn't because it would break legacy content
[12:54] Kyrah Abattoir couldn't we have a "sculpt equivalent" kind of mesh, with just a ball as collisions, it seems it would be enough in so many applications...
[12:54] davep (runitai.linden) (see SL's bad framerate and sim lag)
[12:54] Latif Khalifa so the number of bytes in assets taht you need to fetch to display objects will not differ drastically from mesh to prims
[12:54] Angel (angel.alphaville) I would particularly "punish" big huge textures
[12:55] Lazy (lazy.spectre) the bad FPS will continue if mesh cant compete in terms of prim cost though...
[12:55] Tapple Gao applying a texture should increase prim count too
[12:55] davep (runitai.linden) the number of bytes to be fetched is significantly higher even for the simplest of meshes
[12:55] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) Precisely, Lazy
[12:55] Charlar Linden shouts: While this is going on, I want to address the last agenda item:
[12:55] Charlar Linden 9. How do we fix the link to the meeting location on the Office Hours page? (Nalates Urriah)
[12:55] Penny Patton FPS isn't the only issue. Bandwidth and server burden also have to be taken into consideration.
[12:55] Gaia Clary Rujnitai, does that imply that Sculpties are more efficient regarding server costs ?
[12:55] Latif Khalifa runtai, for geometry alone true, not for the total cost of object when you getch all the textures
[12:55] Charlar Linden I'll fix it later, thanks for the note Nalates
[12:55] Nal (nalates.urriah) If one clicks the SLURL o LLO:OH page the maps.secondlife.com page gives a link to secondlife://Ahern/0/0/0
[12:56] Latif Khalifa meses pale in byte size in comparison to textures
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) Gaia: no, sculpty accounting has no basis in reality
[12:56] Vivienne Daguerre even that is not equal... if I have a very complex mesh made of things that would take several sculpties to make, or ordinary prims, with a separate 512 x 512 texture on each piece, then using a 1024 x 1024 texture on one mesh replacing all that still gives a savings texturewise... nothing is simple
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) also, texture accounting has no basis in reality
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) nor does script or attachment reality
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) accounting, even
[12:56] Drongle McMahon Kyrah ... you can make a ball physics shape if you want it.
[12:56] Tapple Gao does any accounting have basis in reality?
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) the new accounting does
[12:57] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) then apply that all across the board, legacy content be damned
[12:57] Latif Khalifa runtai, you know what else doesn't have basis in reality, that in 2011 you increase cost of resources compared to 2004
[12:57] Charlar Linden and we're just about out of time
[12:57] Nyx Linden we're trying to be much more up front with where our costs come from
[12:57] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) so one that has a basis in reality is competing with one that odsent... lol
[12:57] Latif Khalifa in the same perioid all other services have gotten 10 times cheaper
[12:57] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) dosen't*
[12:57] Gaia Clary ehmm.. i mean... if i compare a default sculpty with a minimal mesh, then thie mesh still is less efficient regarding server resources than sculpty ... that is independent of any accounting i guess...
[12:57] arton Rotaru thats the problem ac14
[12:58] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) I mean, let's be honest... aside from nostalgia, what does 2004/2005 content have that 2010/2011 stuff doesn't?
[12:58] Tapple Gao I'd rather see the costs measured in wakeups per second, sim outgoing bandwidth, rather than a magic prim equivilance number
[12:58] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) less prims apparently
[12:58] Penny Patton Yellow: It is all filled with fresh, homebaked apple pie.
[12:59] arton Rotaru Ok, I have to run
[12:59] davep (runitai.linden) Tapple: the cost has to be constant and consistent despite the number of connected agents to avoid unpredictable object return
[12:59] davep (runitai.linden) due to overflowing parcel limit
[12:59] arton Rotaru Happy tweaking lindens
[12:59] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you! see you next week!
[12:59] Charlar Linden thanks - please keep on testing!
[12:59] Nal (nalates.urriah) TY... bye
[13:00] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Adios Lindens
[13:00] draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam) thanks for fixing the camera in the mesh client, hopefully it will get ported to viewer-development
[13:00] Gaia Clary so can i tell, that sculpties have a more efficient imprint on server ? yes or no ?
[13:00] Kyrah Abattoir they haven't any
[13:00] Bunnie Mills thank you Lindens, bye bye everyone
[13:00] davep (runitai.linden) sculpties are more efficient on the server than meshes in terms of simulation cost
[13:00] Kyrah Abattoir as far as the server is concerned you rezzed a ball
[13:00] Gaia Clary ok.
[13:00] Kyrah Abattoir i wish meshes offered a simmilar mode...
[13:00] davep (runitai.linden) but they're more expensive in terms of bandwidth if you maxed out a sim with unique sculpties
[13:01] Nyx Linden so its complicated :)
[13:01] davep (runitai.linden) actually, I take that back
[13:01] Gaia Clary i see that ;-)
[13:01] Gaia Clary um,m...
[13:01] Kyrah Abattoir not entirely out of our grasp tho some peoples here are professionals...
[13:01] davep (runitai.linden) if you do a non-uniform scale on a sculpty, it's physically quite expensive for the simulator
[13:01] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) ....let me be honest. I can understand the goal of keeping as much legacy content unbroken as possible...
[13:01] davep (runitai.linden) because it has to simulate it as an ellipsoid mesh
[13:01] Gaia Clary non uniform scale ?
[13:01] davep (runitai.linden) instead of an analyitcal sphere
[13:01] Gaia Clary ah
[13:01] Flea Yatsenko heya
[13:02] davep (runitai.linden) (see the physics shape display)
[13:02] Tapple Gao most sculpties are phantom anyway
[13:02] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) but sometimes, it HAS to be done
[13:02] Kyrah Abattoir davep, so are spheres then :)
[13:02] NEEDADISPENSERHERE (ac14.hutson) well atleast when mesh comes out i can get rid of the sculpt collidion maps on my vehicles
[13:02] davep (runitai.linden) Kyrah: aye
[13:02] davep (runitai.linden) prims suck for physics
[13:03] davep (runitai.linden) (and rendered triangle count)
[13:03] Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda) AFK
[13:03] davep (runitai.linden) and render batching