Mesh/Archive/2011-10-31

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Agenda

  1. Will there be an official, released build that will finally incorporate ALL of the following show stopper bug fixes: the fix for the memory pool bug, the fix for the button for weight calculation, the work made in the shining branch regarding OpenGL and shaders, but without inheriting the new "glorious" interface and the bugs that come with it in recent development builds ( for example the shiny new mouse wheel bug in the panels - floaters) ? Is it not sane to acknowledge a userbase accustomed to Viewer 2/3 interface and let us ask for at least one final stable version of it to rely upon for a while, before you work out the long long way for this new "interface" to be ironed out and presentable ? For the past two months, there has been not a single build that is not marred by one show stopper bug or another. You fix the bugs but you don't push them into the releases, and now, to add insult to injury, you have brought a slew of new problems to be fixed with this new quickly hacked together "interface". [Angel Alphaville]
  2. A recent conversation in the mesh forum revealed some unexpected effects of UV mapping and material numbers on the download weight of a simple set of planks [1]. The decrease in weight with more materials is most perplexing. No reason to regard this as a bug, but it would be nice to have an explanation so that an understanding of these effects can be used in optimising models. [Drongle McMahon]
  3. Received the following message on first use of latest beta viewer: "Display settings have been set to recommended levels because of a change to the rendering subsystem." What might these changes have been? Did they affect LOD switch distances? [Drongle McMahon]
  4. Any update on the Mesh Deformer research and thinking? Any official contact made by or collaboration with the Maxwell/Qarl Deformer Project? Nalates Urriah
  5. The latest Project Viewer Mesh is 10/22/11. Is Project Viewer Mesh weekly build? Or was it merged into other projects? [Yuzuru Jewell]
  6. Any word on the Neck and Center attachments points and avatars and rigging with Collada upload? Nalates Urriah
  7. Could I get a comment on [2]? [Yabusaka Loon]

Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday October 31, 2011

[12:04] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Hey Charlar.
[12:04] Rain Edring Hello
[12:04] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello Charlar.
[12:04] Charlar Linden Howdy all
[12:05] Vincent Nacon ok... I'm hating this 3.2 viewer... but carry on, I'll do my best to keep up
[12:05] Nal (nalates.urriah) The UI in 3.2 is much nicer...
[12:06] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) So I made tutorial videos on Viewer 3.2..
[12:06] Charlar Linden https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:06] Charlar Linden and we're underway!
[12:06] Nal (nalates.urriah) \o/
[12:06] Vincent Nacon don't mind me, I'm attached to 1.23 layout
[12:06] Angel (angel.alphaville) "nicer" being subjective of course,
[12:06] Angel (angel.alphaville) words have lost meaning totally
[12:07] Charlar Linden First item
[12:07] Vincent Nacon nicer but not the same as their layout
[12:07] Vincent Nacon anyway... news?
[12:07] Charlar Linden #1 Will there be an official, released build that will finally incorporate ALL of the following show stopper bug fixes: the fix for the memory pool bug, the fix for the button for weight calculation, the work made in the shining branch regarding OpenGL and shaders, but without inheriting the new "glorious" interface and the bugs that come with it in recent development builds ( for example the shiny new mouse wheel bug in the panels - floaters) ? Is it not sane to acknowledge a userbase accustomed to Viewer 2/3 interface and let us ask for at least one final stable version of it to rely upon for a while, before you work out the long long way for this new "interface" to be ironed out and presentable ? For the past two months, there has been not a single build that is not marred by one show stopper bug or another. You fix the bugs but you don't push them into the releases, and now, to add insult to injury, you have brought a slew of new problems to be fixed with this new quickly hacked together "interface". [An
[12:07] Vincent Nacon doubt it
[12:07] Charlar Linden There's a question in there somewhere...
[12:07] Charlar Linden ok
[12:08] Charlar Linden the short answer is "no"
[12:08] Angel (angel.alphaville) yes , short question is you fix bugs but you don t push them to releases
[12:08] Angel (angel.alphaville) why is that?
[12:08] Vincent Nacon just not at the same time
[12:08] Angel (angel.alphaville) and if that s not enough you bring on the new "interface"
[12:08] davep (runitai.linden) I can speak to the GL issues not having shipped yet --
[12:08] Angel (angel.alphaville) result is there has not been not a single reliable viewer since three months ago
[12:08] davep (runitai.linden) er, fixes, even
[12:09] Vir Linden new interface is still being refined and fixed up, but it's a topic outside of mesh.
[12:09] davep (runitai.linden) the gl compatibility pass that hasn't shipped yet is still in QA -- it's a very large change and there are still several regressions that need addressing before it ships
[12:09] Vincent Nacon hope you have filter ready to redirect all the complaints about not work on their old outdated PC to trash. :)
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi speaking of new interface
[12:09] Angel (angel.alphaville) ok, what about the mesh upload button ?
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi will there be any changes to the media controls?
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi i really hate them
[12:10] Angel (angel.alphaville) what was the point of this very recent official relese for mesh builders?
[12:10] Angel (angel.alphaville) it lacked Prep's fix
[12:10] Angel (angel.alphaville) or whoever fixed it, and you did fix it
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi i love the new UI, but the media controls are just terrible
[12:11] Vir Linden I think we're getting too many topics in one question...
[12:11] Angel (angel.alphaville) it s actualy one topic
[12:11] Vincent Nacon yeah... Neb, I should say the media is still the same as before it
[12:11] Vincent Nacon so they didn't do anything about the media yet
[12:11] Charlar Linden Angel, so your original question was actually about the mesh upload button?
[12:11] Vincent Nacon s in short, use Firestorm :)
[12:11] Vincent Nacon so*
[12:11] Charlar Linden som problem you're having with it?
[12:12] Angel (angel.alphaville) yes, why was it not in this official release?
[12:12] Angel (angel.alphaville) we could rely on it for a while until you fix the new UI
[12:12] Charlar Linden can you tell us what the problem you see is?
[12:12] Nyx Linden which JIRA are you speaking to?
[12:12] Charlar Linden so we can talk to the issue?
[12:12] Angel (angel.alphaville) hm the greyed out upload button
[12:12] Charlar Linden All the time?
[12:12] Charlar Linden is there a JIRA?
[12:13] Angel (angel.alphaville) it has not found its way into this recent official relese, while it s in recent mesh builds
[12:13] Drongle McMahon sh-2595, I think
[12:13] Angel (angel.alphaville) when you chose a custom physics mesh
[12:13] Angel (angel.alphaville) that one
[12:13] Charlar Linden ok, checking...
[12:13] Nal (nalates.urriah) You have to add your texture to the pysics model to get it to work...
[12:14] Drongle McMahon Physics mesh subject to new material subset requirement.
[12:14] Angel (angel.alphaville) yes congratulations, as I said they have fixed it already
[12:14] Angel (angel.alphaville) but it s not in the release, neither in the new beta
[12:14] Angel (angel.alphaville) we would have a reliable viewer 2 GUI if it had
[12:14] Nal (nalates.urriah) Yeah, only development viewer.
[12:14] Angel (angel.alphaville) but now we have to deal with the annoyances and the ugly bugs of the new GUI that will take months
[12:15] Angel (angel.alphaville) it s always one major bug that is left out, for some mysterious reason
[12:15] Vir Linden there are some fixes in the mesh project viewer that will be pulled down to the main viewer release. Don't have an exact timeline on that - depends on other projects in the pipeline, getting QA time, etc.
[12:16] Vir Linden Not sure whether that includes the issue you're concerned about - is it fixed in the project viewer?
[12:16] Angel (angel.alphaville) in the project viewer it was fixed since October 1st
[12:16] Vir Linden (if it is fixed in the project viewer, it will eventually be incorporated into a viewer release)
[12:16] Nal (nalates.urriah) What is the plan for texture and physics model? Shouldn't we be able to skip having a texture on the physics model?
[12:17] davep (runitai.linden) Nal: yup, I think that's what we're talking about
[12:17] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx
[12:17] Angel (angel.alphaville) must be the same bug
[12:18] Angel (angel.alphaville) I suspect it s too late now, and my question will remain academic, right ?
[12:18] Angel (angel.alphaville) you ve already pushed the new GUI into beta
[12:18] davep (runitai.linden) Angel: it's really a side effect of having a rapid release cycle -- not every release can contain all the bugs that have been fixed because integrating them takes time -- we have to pick which ones go in first
[12:19] Angel (angel.alphaville) it s a shame though because you really worked hard on these bugs
[12:19] Angel (angel.alphaville) you have marred at least two releases
[12:19] Nyx Linden also important to note that this team is working on mesh bugs, but we are not the team working on the new interface
[12:19] davep (runitai.linden) I think we've covered this topic -- can we move on?
[12:19] Angel (angel.alphaville) please do
[12:19] Nal (nalates.urriah) please
[12:19] Charlar Linden #2 A recent conversation in the mesh forum revealed some unexpected effects of UV mapping and material numbers on the download weight of a simple set of planks [1]. The decrease in weight with more materials is most perplexing. No reason to regard this as a bug, but it would be nice to have an explanation so that an understanding of these effects can be used in optimising models. [Drongle McMahon]
[12:19] Vincent Nacon way ahead of ya
[12:20] Drongle McMahon The "[1]" ia a link to the forum, if you look at the wiki agenda.
[12:21] davep (runitai.linden) er
[12:21] davep (runitai.linden) happen to have those objects handy for a side by side comparison?
[12:21] Drongle McMahon Yes. I'll get them....
[12:21] Nal (nalates.urriah) Nice research Drongle, Thx
[12:22] Vincent Nacon and you had to make them rainbow
[12:23] davep (runitai.linden) is the question why is the red one 4 while the rest are 2?
[12:24] Vincent Nacon great... 3.2 viewer won't let me select to see
[12:24] Vincent Nacon muhaha!
[12:25] Drongle McMahon There are two questions.... they are all different if you look at More Info. The rainbow ones have eight materials and have lower weights than the equivalent ones with one material.
[12:26] davep (runitai.linden) kk, let me interrogate these and get back to you
[12:26] Drongle McMahon The the ones with stacked UV maps (...uv1) are lower weight than the ones with non-overlapping UV maps for each plank.
[12:26] Charlar Linden ok, let's move on and come back when Dave's had some time to look
[12:26] Nal (nalates.urriah) May be respond in the thread?
[12:26] Charlar Linden #3Received the following message on first use of latest beta viewer: "Display settings have been set to recommended levels because of a change to the rendering subsystem." What might these changes have been? Did they affect LOD switch distances? [Drongle McMahon]
[12:26] davep (runitai.linden) sure
[12:27] davep (runitai.linden) shouldn't have affected LoD switch distances -- that message comes up whenever the feature table or gpu table changes
[12:27] davep (runitai.linden) I think Oz recently pushed some changes to the gpu table to give certain cards a more realistic set of default settings based on community feedback
[12:27] Drongle McMahon What's the feature table?
[12:28] davep (runitai.linden) indra/newview/featuretable.txt
[12:28] davep (runitai.linden) (also featurtable_mac.txt, featuretable_linux.txt, and featuretable_xp.txt)
[12:28] Nyx Linden it determines what features are turned on by default for your hardware configuration
[12:28] davep (runitai.linden) gpu_table.txt determines what "class" your graphics card is
[12:28] Nyx Linden (so we can turn off features that are problematic for certain video cards, etc)
[12:28] Drongle McMahon Oh, ok. Trying to chase a very strange LOD switch anomaly reported by Kwakelde Kwak
[12:29] davep (runitai.linden) and wheter it should default to "low", "medium", or "high" detail
[12:31] davep (runitai.linden) for the streaming weight issue -- my debug displays are busted -- I'll need to fix those and get back to you guys on the forums
[12:31] Charlar Linden next item
[12:31] Charlar Linden #4 Any update on the Mesh Deformer research and thinking? Any official contact made by or collaboration with the Maxwell/Qarl Deformer Project? Nalates Urriah
[12:31] Drongle McMahon OK. Do you need the dae files?
[12:31] davep (runitai.linden) sure -- want to open a jira and drop them in there?
[12:32] Drongle McMahon ok I'll call it a bug although it isn't :-)
[12:33] davep (runitai.linden) it might be :-p
[12:33] Charlar Linden LindenLab has done our research into what options there are available to enhance the mesh clothing issue.
[12:33] Drongle McMahon Only if fixing it doesn't increse weight, I hope!
[12:34] Nal (nalates.urriah) Any idea which option is better?
[12:35] Drongle McMahon .... an essence of silent anticipation fills the air ...
[12:35] Charlar Linden We're not quite ready to talk about it; i'm sorry because i know it's of great interest to many of you.
[12:35] Vincent Nacon sometime LOD need to be disabled, as it can slow down faster high-end cards with the "switching"
[12:36] davep (runitai.linden) there's a debug setting for that
[12:36] Vincent Nacon yeah
[12:36] Vincent Nacon been using that
[12:36] Nal (nalates.urriah) I'll take that as you haven't come to a decision... but, will you be able to add any direction foe Max/Qarl?
[12:36] Charlar Linden I'm trying hard, i really am, I promise. We really are focused on quality right now.
[12:36] Nal (nalates.urriah) I know there is lots to consider.
[12:36] Vincent Nacon we know... I think
[12:37] Vincent Nacon but one of the few things are like....
[12:37] Nal (nalates.urriah) We just want to PRY info from you :)
[12:37] Vincent Nacon focus new UI viewer (3.2) for later
[12:37] Charlar Linden i'm happy to talk more about it soon. I'll reach out once I have something useful.
[12:37] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx
[12:37] Vincent Nacon put it on backburner and work on things that matter more
[12:37] Vincent Nacon not sure what else need to be on backburner
[12:38] Vincent Nacon we have Firestorm and we're getting by ok with them just fine. no need to get UI viewer out any time soon
[12:38] Charlar Linden OK, next item...
[12:39] Charlar Linden #5 The latest Project Viewer Mesh is 10/22/11. Is Project Viewer Mesh weekly build? Or was it merged into other projects? [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:39] Vir Linden The mesh project viewer gets built when there's new content in that branch. As you can see, there's not much recent activity.
[12:39] Vincent Nacon of course, I would have said we would be ok if you said "oh hell with it" and just hire Phoenix developers to work on that for you guys, but it's a wishful thinking...
[12:39] Angel (angel.alphaville) judging from the greyed out upload button, the recent fixes are not merged yet
[12:40] Nal (nalates.urriah) It is a little confusing right now which viewer has which updates, shinning, mesh, or dev...
[12:40] Vir Linden We will probably be discontinuing mesh project viewers once we get the last batch of work merged down.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon there goes rest of the "promised" features to go with mesh
[12:40] Angel (angel.alphaville) don t forget the fix you ve made for the button :B
[12:41] Vir Linden that doesn't mean there will be no future work on mesh, just that it's not our current area of focus.
[12:41] Drongle McMahon ...offset pivot....
[12:41] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Which viewer should I use?
[12:41] Vincent Nacon yeah ok, you don't have to mention all of the features
[12:41] Vincent Nacon :P
[12:41] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Making video?
[12:41] davep (runitai.linden) moreover -- mesh is now a core component of SL, so fixes for mesh issues will go into the same branches as other fixes
[12:42] Vincent Nacon sounds good
[12:42] Charlar Linden #6 Any word on the Neck and Center attachments points and avatars and rigging with Collada upload? Nalates Urriah
[12:43] Nyx Linden the jira to watch here is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1672 - if you check the latest comments the patch has been put in a branch for review
[12:43] Nal (nalates.urriah) ok
[12:43] Nyx Linden so its on its way along the normal pipeline of work :)
[12:43] Vincent Nacon can't you rig with collada, yet? thought we're pass that point now
[12:43] Drongle McMahon When do we look in STORM| and when in VWR?
[12:45] Nyx Linden VWR is a general bucket, STORM is for fixes specific to the snowstorm team - which handles opensource contributions, small bugfixes, etc
[12:46] Drongle McMahon and SH?
[12:46] Nyx Linden the distinction is mainly for us to keep track of which team owns the issue
[12:46] Nyx Linden the team formerly known as mesh handles SH issues.
[12:47] Charlar Linden Last one
[12:47] Charlar Linden #7 Could I get a comment on [2]? [Yabusaka Loon]
[12:47] Drongle McMahon Ah..... glad it's still intact
[12:48] Charlar Linden VWR-27187
[12:48] davep (runitai.linden) [2] == https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27187?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=289344
[12:48] davep (runitai.linden) what's a non-mesh viewer?
[12:49] Nal (nalates.urriah) 1.23
[12:49] Vincent Nacon there's much worst than just "snapshot" the texture
[12:49] Yabusaka Loon or phenix
[12:49] Nyx Linden since we can't change the behavior of all non-mesh enabled viewers we implemented a basic fallback mechanism to show them as prims with the same number of faces. Its the best we can do without re-releasing all non-mesh viewers.
[12:49] Nal (nalates.urriah) One that does not render mesh
[12:49] Vincent Nacon so this is nothing in comparson
[12:49] davep (runitai.linden) (was joking)
[12:49] Nal (nalates.urriah) :P hard to tell in chat...
[12:50] Vincent Nacon think of it as a encourage ment to get people on mesh viewer already
[12:50] Angel (angel.alphaville) they won t budge
[12:50] davep (runitai.linden) as far as ripping textures, I don't think people rip textures the way you think they rip textures
[12:50] Vincent Nacon then they're not worthy
[12:50] Angel (angel.alphaville) they ll stick to their beloved viewer
[12:50] Vincent Nacon :P
[12:50] Drongle McMahon or to ban mesh from their regions
[12:50] Nyx Linden most third party viewers are integrating mesh functionality, so this should be a temporary issue
[12:50] Vincent Nacon it'll pass
[12:51] Vincent Nacon next!
[12:51] Charlar Linden that was our last item
[12:51] Vincent Nacon .....ahhh.... should be more.
[12:51] Vincent Nacon oh well
[12:52] davep (runitai.linden) Drongle: did you make that jira with the .dae's ?
[12:52] Yabusaka Loon so after TPV add mesh function, Linden will ban all the non-mesh viewer right away?
[12:52] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) it will be easier for intergrastng mesh functionality once open-105 is finished
[12:52] Drongle McMahon Do you have staistics on % mesh viewers? I don't suppose you'd tell us though.
[12:52] Vincent Nacon no Loon
[12:52] Vincent Nacon it'll die out on its own
[12:52] davep (runitai.linden) Drongle: we publish a top list every week
[12:52] Drongle McMahon davep....not yet. I will do right after the meeting.
[12:52] davep (runitai.linden) http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Third_Party_Viewer_Directory
[12:53] davep (runitai.linden) oh, that's sorted by crash rate
[12:53] Nyx Linden we watch those statistics closely - I'm not personally up to date on which statistics are public
[12:53] Yabusaka Loon lol
[12:53] davep (runitai.linden) not usage
[12:53] Nal (nalates.urriah) But there is no info on the viewer's % of users
[12:53] Drongle McMahon or % logged in time
[12:53] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) Oz is the one you want to ask about usage ststictics
[12:53] Vincent Nacon guys... Lindens aren't allowed to say who got the most on public
[12:54] Mikki Miles Hello everybody!
[12:54] Vincent Nacon but safe to assume anyway
[12:54] Nyx Linden Oz is the keeper of the stats, so he should be best to ask about this :)
[12:54] Vincent Nacon he won't say anyway
[12:54] Drongle McMahon Fair enough ... they have to have some secrets.
[12:54] davep (runitai.linden) Hi, Drc. Mik!
[12:54] Vincent Nacon yup, don't want to look bad
[12:54] Vincent Nacon whoops
[12:54] Nyx Linden mmm...such tasty numbers to munch on
[12:54] davep (runitai.linden) crunchy numbers
[12:55] Angel (angel.alphaville) hey davep ... something irrelevant, the "basic shaders" button is back at friday's shining build
[12:55] davep (runitai.linden) yup
[12:55] Charlar Linden ok, are we wrapping here?
[12:55] Angel (angel.alphaville) it not a regression, is it ?
[12:55] Vincent Nacon look like it
[12:55] Angel (angel.alphaville) an unintentional one I mean
[12:55] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) Wolfpup knows about Oz's dealing with usage loging as he has to work with him all the time :)
[12:55] davep (runitai.linden) Intel couldn't cope with GLSL on some of it's GL 2.0 chips
[12:55] Vincent Nacon thanks god AMD's are cheap
[12:55] Vincent Nacon oll
[12:55] Vincent Nacon lol*
[12:55] Angel (angel.alphaville) ok !
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) (talking about Intel's graphics chips)
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) the one that died here was Intel 965
[12:56] Vincent Nacon you know AMD owns ATI now, right?
[12:56] davep (runitai.linden) reports as a GL 2.0 implementation, but falls over if you use shaders
[12:56] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) Runitai i think part of that has to do wth the driver its self (ie Mesa on Linux)
[12:57] davep (runitai.linden) nope, did A/B tests on various flavors of windows and OSX
[12:57] davep (runitai.linden) (issues like this, BTW, are why the gl compatibility fixes haven't gone to release yet)
[12:57] davep (runitai.linden) 12 fps to 3 fps on intel 965
[12:57] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Ouch.
[12:57] davep (runitai.linden) don't want to ship that, no sir
[12:57] Vincent Nacon oh that sounds like fun
[12:58] Vincent Nacon more hair to pull
[12:58] davep (runitai.linden) see, our QA engineers do stuff!
[12:58] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) Runitai rember i was instantly crashing the openGL viewer on my linux laptop and it has an Intel GM45 gpu chipset
[12:58] Charlar Linden OK, we're all done here, so thanks everyone. And thanks for keeping the forum going strong.
[12:58] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) I would've poked you about SH-2638 on IRC but you're not there. :p
[12:58] Vincent Nacon aye
[12:58] Vincent Nacon thanks for coming
[12:58] davep (runitai.linden) thanks guys
[12:58] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Koli Contepomi waves to the Lindens.
[12:58] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx Lindens
[12:59] Nyx Linden thanks all!
[12:59] Charlar Linden Cheers!
[12:59] Calla Cela thank you & bye
[12:59] Drongle McMahon Bye ... off to jira
[12:59] Angel (angel.alphaville) cheers !
[12:59] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Back to the main grid for me, and continue getting tired (8PM here).
[12:59] Rain Edring Thanks
[12:59] Mikki Miles ouch, we turned back the clock one hour in europe...
[13:00] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Yeah, US doesn't do it the same time as us.
[13:00] Vir Linden Bye all.
[13:00] Mikki Miles wondered why you already started ;-)
[13:02] Eleanora Newell take care, everyone
[13:02] Rain Edring bye
[13:02] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) See you next week!
[13:02] Mikki Miles bye
[13:02] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) It will be winter time.