Open Source Meeting/2010-04-22

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[13:39] Ardy Lay: Boo?
[13:40] Bronson Blackadder: meow?
[13:40] Ardy Lay: Hi
[13:40] Dale Glass: hi
[13:41] Bronson Blackadder: hello :) meow
[13:42] Christoph Naumova Онлайн
[13:49] Techwolf Lupindo speaks....then sees there is no voice on this parcel.
[13:49] Bronson Blackadder: meow
[13:53] Chaley May: so that Hippo Award info seems old.. is there still hippo awards?
[13:54] Saijanai Kuhn sidles up to Aimee Linden and <winks>
[13:54] Aimee Linden: hmm, I dunno is the answer to that
[13:54] Bronson Blackadder: meow
[13:54] Chaley May: This year's winners will receive

Cash gifts to their Second Life accounts (Contributor of the Year receives US$500, other category winners each receive US$300)

[13:55] Aimee Linden: the last I remember about it was back before Rob left
[13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Rob was in charge of it, wasn't he?
[13:55] Techwolf Lupindo: I just did a snowglobe-trunk build and logged into the beta grid. There is a bug on the map, the translucent tringle showing where and what direction you are looking on the map is no longer position correctory.
[13:55] Aimee Linden: it was to be postponed to January of this year, but there's no one in his role to drive it at the moment
[13:55] Youri Ashton: hi all
[13:55] Youri Ashton: hey aimee :)
[13:56] Chaley May: you should get them to restart it.. seems a nice reward fr people that worl hard on the open source viewer
[13:56] Aimee Linden: yep, that's a known bug in Viewer 2.0 Tech :(
[13:56] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning. I missed the question that Aimee answered. What was postponed?
[13:56] Techwolf Lupindo: Its circuling around a point instead.
[13:56] Aimee Linden: hmm, I think a fix for it has gone into viewer-trunk though, so should surface in snowglobe, I'm not sre
[13:56] Aimee Linden: *sure
[13:56] Chaley May: hippo awards
[13:57] Chaley May:
[13:57] Techwolf Lupindo: For innovation, Kristens viewer would be a good canadate.
[13:57] Aimee Linden: yes, I hope we would when we can find a replacement for Rob, soon I hope
[13:57] Ardy Lay: Tech,
[13:57] JIRA helper: [#VWR-18648] View frustum on World Map rotates about a location that is NOT the current agent location unless the map view origin is at 0, 0.
[13:58] Ardy Lay: Many of my JIRA issues have simply vanished but I can still see that one.
[13:59] Youri Ashton: hey merov
[13:59] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Merov :-)
[13:59] Bronson Blackadder: hey meowov
[13:59] Opensource Obscure: yay merov! salut
[13:59] Aimee Linden: yep, that bug's apparently fixed in trunk
[13:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Yep, that it. But i';me esperence a 90 dregree offset instead the zero degree offset in that pic.
[13:59] Merov Linden: hi guys
[13:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Himerov
[14:00] Techwolf Lupindo: I'll try to reframe from meching that <censored>
[14:00] Ardy Lay: Tech, depends on which direction you are facing.
[14:00] Merov Linden: it's 2pm and there's nothing new in the agenda
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Well done on the TPV changes -- Love the unambiguous clause 8.f, that will restore a lot of lost confidence. :-)
[14:01] Aimee Linden: see you next week then!
[14:01] Youri Ashton: haha
[14:01] Chaley May: bye
[14:01] Latif Khalifa: heh
[14:01] Merov Linden: unchanged from last week:
[14:01] Techwolf Lupindo: The only stuff left in the tpv is tech details and minor stuff.
[14:01] Latif Khalifa: i see all the artwork bundles got nuked
[14:01] Merov Linden: well, the main thing I've been working on is 1.x build (internal)
[14:02] Morgaine Dinova: Aimee: some people need a laughter track to go with that, aka. smilie :P
[14:02] Merov Linden: I'm still struggling with it as the build system changed a lot
[14:02] Techwolf Lupindo: The tpv overshadow stuff, so the agenda didn't get any new stuff.
[14:02] Youri Ashton: oh merov, remember me telling you i couldnt get on 2.0?
[14:02] Merov Linden: anyway, I'm now porting back v2.0 build stuff... no fin... not that you care or can help me with that...
[14:02] Latif Khalifa: <- all snowglobe artwork and libs downloads on this page give access denied
[14:02] Youri Ashton: i have not changed anything since then, but it decided to let me on now!
[14:03] Youri Ashton: 2.0 has a mind of its own i guess
[14:03] Latif Khalifa: for 1.3.2
[14:03] Techwolf Lupindo: For snowglobe stuff, perhaps placing the downloads on something _other_ then S3 to prevent nuking of files?
[14:03] Merov Linden: Latif: let me check that but I guess it's because things have been pulled out (which is the reason why I'm trying to build them back)
[14:04] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: since you're backporting to SG 1.x, can we take it that it will be a long-lived branch, unlike Viewer 1.x which T said would be dropped as soon as two releases of 2.x are out?
[14:04] Latif Khalifa: can these permanent downloads be put on .... pages
[14:04] Merov Linden: SG 1.x will be long lived I think
[14:05] Merov Linden: several months for sure
[14:05] Latif Khalifa: now it's impossible to build sg 1.x either from svn or from these source code drops
[14:05] Phantom Ninetails: I'm surprised 2.0 hasn't been dropped yet..
[14:05] Youri Ashton: as am i phantom
[14:05] Merov Linden: Latif: I know, that's what I'm working on since 1 full week now
[14:05] Youri Ashton: 2.0 is more of a curse then a blessing
[14:06] Phantom Ninetails: Yep.
[14:06] Youri Ashton: no offence meant to the hard work put into it ofcourse
[14:06] Latif Khalifa: i just think that stuff linked from should have a permanent home
[14:07] Merov Linden: Yeap... Well, we should be able to build and export our own stuff anyway...
[14:07] Morgaine Dinova: There's politics re Viewer2.0, not gonna get dropped. But I'm more interested in SG. Don't want to see SG 1.x dropped until SG 2.x has all its problems removed, which could be a year or more.
[14:07] Bronson Blackadder: meow ow
[14:07] Morgaine Dinova waves to Bron
[14:07] Merov Linden: k, well, that confirms that my time is not wasted on building 1.x again :)
[14:07] Merov Linden: as painful as it is...
[14:07] Merov Linden: k, well, that confirms that my time is not wasted on building 1.x again :)
[14:07] Voice not available at your current location
[14:08] Merov Linden: as painful as it is...
[14:08] Merov Linden: meanwhile in SG2.0 land...
[14:08] Morgaine Dinova: Merov += cookie
[14:08] Merov Linden: that build system works fine and happily :)
[14:08] Merov Linden: which is nice
[14:08] Morgaine Dinova: o/
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova tries a build
[14:09] Latif Khalifa: 2.0 land has its share of problem, no tags for viewer-external releases...
[14:09] Merov Linden: I have not been doing commit there but I saw Aimee did
[14:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Where is the viewer-externial 2.0.1 tag release?
[14:09] Merov Linden: I do regular syncs so, please, continue to write patches and commit there
[14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Kirsten's latest viewer shows possible directions for how SG 2.0 might fix many UI issues.
[14:10] Aimee Linden: yep, just a couple of Mac build fixes and one feature brought forward from SG1
[14:10] Merov Linden: Techwolf: good point, I should create one
[14:10] Latif Khalifa: there are no tags for 2.0 final, 2.0.1 at
[14:10] Latif Khalifa: no way to tell which code is 2.0.0
[14:11] Techwolf Lupindo: I just gave Kristens my patches to get the viewer going. They are viwer 2.0 patches. Should I submitte the patches under VWR on jira?
[14:11] Merov Linden: hmmm.... Latif, let me check but 2.0 is the last "beta" tag
[14:11] Merov Linden: 2.0.0 I mean
[14:11] Merov Linden: the tip there is 2.0.1
[14:11] Thickbrick Sleaford: Latif, you can find a commit with an internal svn rev (from looking at the version changes) that sort of corresponds to 2.0.1
[14:11] Techwolf Lupindo: Oh, where is the 2.0 tag also, there is only beta tags on there now.
[14:11] Merov Linden: I should create those tags just to make things clear
[14:12] Latif Khalifa: so viewer-external is not synced execpt for when a release is made?
[14:12] Merov Linden: Tech: I have *not* created those tags
[14:12] Techwolf Lupindo: Merov, ok.
[14:12] Morgaine Dinova: Techwolf: is games-simulation/snowglobe-trunk in an emergeable state?
[14:12] Merov Linden: I'm saying that the last beta was eventually stamped as "2.0.0"
[14:12] Latif Khalifa: you said that tip was 2.0.1
[14:12] Techwolf Lupindo: If nothing else, a text doc with version number the corrosponds to the svn version would help.
[14:13] Techwolf Lupindo: the=that
[14:13] Merov Linden: also
[14:13] Merov Linden: beta 5 (? can't remember) == 2.0.0
[14:13] Techwolf Lupindo: Morgaine, yes. I think all patches that I was using have been commited now.
[14:13] Merov Linden: tip == 2.0.1
[14:13] Morgaine Dinova: Tech: neat, just sync' with you, building now
[14:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think it's a little past 2.0.1
[14:13] Latif Khalifa: so tip is only synced after a release :)
[14:14] Merov Linden: I pulled from viewer-hotfix the day 2.0.1 was built
[14:14] Latha Serevi: Regarding Windows builds of 2.0 viewers, FYI, I've created a new page for us to document how. Much is filled in, but currently lacks the c-ares section (I can't figure it out), and the boost section could use some love. Also a specific example of where to get a set of art,libs,and source that will work. Thanks to the contributors so far. When there's a recipe that someone says will actually work, I volunteer to test-drive it.
[14:14] Techwolf Lupindo: Morgaine, the only one left if snow-589 and that one isn't a build blocker, but it fixes gstreamer detection issues with 32-bit/64-bit systems.
[14:14] JIRA helper:

[#SNOW-589] Don't disable GStreamer on 64-bit Linux, when the Viewer binary is 64-bit, too

[14:15] Merov Linden: aaaah... c-ares building on Windows... That *is* one piece of fun...
[14:15] Youri Ashton: wouldnt it be better to get back to 1.xx and then make it modular? Keeping the orriginal viewer as basic idea, then residents can be allowed to add in official plugin modules, or resident modules that can be certified. Much simpler and lots more ideas that are not in LL hands so LL can just focus on the viewer itself
[14:15] Techwolf Lupindo: Latha, I could set up a vmware image to test that page. I've never done any windows build of the SL client.
[14:16] Latif Khalifa: my personal opinion is that official full releases should be put on relying on svn is too confusing as there is currently no easy way to find out ok, i want to see what changed between 2.0.0 and 2.0.1
[14:16] Thickbrick Sleaford: you can see what internal revision of each commit (in viewer-external) is from looking at llcommon/llversionviewer.h:
[14:16] Youri Ashton: giving the residents a little more freedom should not be a problem i'd say
[14:16] Latha Serevi: Thanks, Techwolf, but it's premature for testing. Need those who've succeeded on a windows build to note missing steps first.
[14:17] Merov Linden: Youri: I'm not sure who you want to go back to 1.xx
[14:17] Morgaine Dinova: Techwolf: new dependency noted, dev-libs/boost-coroutine --- I've unmasked it.
[14:18] Youri Ashton: well, 1.xx is more loved then 2.0 and it sure is easier to use. the new looks are nice and all, but functional they are not
[14:18] Techwolf Lupindo: Yes, I also had to so some sed fixes for boost-corroutine due to /usr/include/boost is a symolic link.
[14:18] Youri Ashton: SG1.xx is a good option as well though
[14:19] Techwolf Lupindo: I had to install boost-coroutine outsde the boost directory.
[14:19] Merov Linden: LL is not going to go back to 1.x for the future of its viewer
[14:19] Phantom Ninetails: :/
[14:19] Merov Linden: rather improve 2.x
[14:19] Aimee Linden: there's a lot more to 2.0 than just the skin
[14:19] Youri Ashton: well, perhaps do that trick with 2.x then?
[14:19] Merov Linden: *but* you're welcome to pick 1.x and do changes there if you prefer
[14:19] Phantom Ninetails: Then port the skin from 1.x to 2.0?
[14:19] Merov Linden: that's not forbidden or contradictory
[14:19] Latif Khalifa: Aimee, it's actually too bad that the UI is what kills otherwise nice new set of features in 2.0
[14:20] Youri Ashton: LL can not espect residents to keep using a viewer that is more difficult to adapt to without giving a little
[14:20] Dzonatas Sol: latif, just ctrl-alt-f1
[14:20] Merov Linden: I sincerely think it's better to improve the 2.x skin than porting 1.x
[14:20] Morgaine Dinova: 87% of poll said they don't like Viewer 2.0. But as long as we have options to remain on 1.x until 2.0 becomess usable, that's fine. What's not fine is an "2.0-only" policy, but it seems SG is free from Tom's diktat.
[14:20] Merov Linden: it's not like 1.x has no problem...
[14:20] Opensource Obscure: dzonatas: that doesn't actually work as expected. please help
[14:21] Phantom Ninetails: 1.x has alot less problems
[14:21] Opensource Obscure: /
[14:21] JIRA helper: [#VWR-17009] Suppressing UI works just partially.
[14:21] JIRA helper: [#VWR-2085] Ctrl-Alt-F1 Hide/Show UI Does Not Work Correctly Under Linux
[14:21] Memorial Dae: It is my understanding that in the current 2.x framework there is a possability that in the future users will be able to modify the client UI
[14:21] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think the way forward is to have a skin + some changes that conditional reinstate old UI (off by default, or maybe unless using the "classic" skin) - but that's a lot of work.
[14:21] Youri Ashton: 2.x is the one havint problems atm and bad ones, specially on design issues that are hardly funcional properly done
[14:22] Merov Linden: I'm not disagreeing with that statement
[14:22] Youri Ashton: and yes, there can be a fix for it, i know
[14:22] Merov Linden: I don't think that backpedaling is the solution though
[14:22] Phantom Ninetails: I do.
[14:22] Dzonatas Sol: Opensource, indeed, the mouse is still active, so there needs to be an official advanced feature to toggle the UI rather than just have it marked as a debug feature
[14:22] Youri Ashton: but how long will it take before the bug of today are fixed? 1 year? 2 years? or more?
[14:22] Phantom Ninetails: 2.0 is a step completely in the wrong direction.
[14:22] Merov Linden: well, we disagree then
[14:22] Phantom Ninetails nods
[14:23] Youri Ashton: discussions are always a good thing, shows the differences in opinions
[14:23] Boroondas Gupte: A lot of code is a lot cleaner in 2.0, but I wonder why it didn't came with a legacy skin in the first place.
[14:23] Youri Ashton: perhaps we can find a solution that suits both sides
[14:23] Thickbrick Sleaford: anybody looked at how hard it is to make2.0 show a pie menu?
[14:24] Youri Ashton: is it possible to add in a 1.x skin to the 2.x viewer? or something similar?
[14:24] Merov Linden: The idea of doing a new UI experience (skin) to address the need of newcomers required to pull out lots of the UI scaffolding
[14:24] Dzonatas Sol: Youri, it's proven, there is no reason to complain about the 2.0 UI when we can do this:
[14:24] Merov Linden: one could recreate the old UI (or smething like it) with the new scaffolding
[14:25] Youri Ashton: that picture is a part of the problem i try to address
[14:25] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think some stuff can be changed in pure xml, but some will require cpp changes
[14:25] Merov Linden: but merging the 2 scaffolding is not super useful
[14:25] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: +1
[14:25] Youri Ashton: if we have both the 2.x design as the 1.x design, we can suit both parties
[14:26] Latif Khalifa: Thickbrick, I too would be interested in finding out how hard would it be to get pie menu in 2.0. The dropdown is just so much harder to use
[14:26] Dzonatas Sol: Youri, part of the problem?
[14:26] Boroondas Gupte: Usually, recreating the previous UI is *the* benchmark when a new scaffolding is introduced.
[14:26] Youri Ashton: 1.x can be changed a bit of course, but it has to be the 1.x idea
[14:26] Merov Linden: but what is the 1.x idea?
[14:26] Latif Khalifa: just deleting and taking objects in 2.0 is pain
[14:26] Thickbrick Sleaford: anyway, having a "classic" skin in pure xml can be a start, if anybody wants to tackle that.
[14:27] Latif Khalifa: i almost abuse reported myself twice
[14:27] Youri Ashton: dzonatas: the 2.x design is badly flawed with results in a screen full windows and options that are burried someone, which is for both newbies as experienced users a bad oman
[14:27] Aimee Linden: I'd be very interested to see someone contribute a patch to make sidebar tab detachable, using the same mechanism as is already there in the conversations window, I think that would combat a large proportion of people's complaints?
[14:27] Dzonatas Sol: try going from WoW back to the pie menu.. delet galore happens
[14:28] Merov Linden: What is the biggest thing in 2.0 UI that you can't wait to take out? at the "architecture" level?
[14:28] Merov Linden: Aimee: +1
[14:28] Techwolf Lupindo: Aimee, someone allready done that.
[14:28] Merov Linden: that's the one I see
[14:28] Youri Ashton: the extreme useage of windows is one
[14:28] Ardy Lay: I need to see several resident and group profile windows open at the same time.
[14:28] Dzonatas Sol: Youri, I don't think you looked at the picture clearly: ... the windows are outside the viewer... the viewer window is nothing but the renderer scene... no UI
[14:28] Youri Ashton: the sidebar idea is a second
[14:28] Chaley May: i need multiple profiles too not seen that happening
[14:29] Youri Ashton: well... not the sidebar 100%, but what it does to the screen more...
[14:29] Boroondas Gupte: I'd like the UI to be more compact, to leave more space for the 3D view.
[14:29] Youri Ashton: hi pixel
[14:29] Pixel Gausman waves.... sorry i'm late
[14:29] Dzonatas Sol: snow-375 ... move the windows/viewer around... tons of options
[14:29] Aimee Linden: +1 to multiple profiles, I miss that myself
[14:29] JIRA helper:

[#SNOW-375] REST/HTTP based API: "thinking outside the box" Human Interface Devices (i.e. Chat/IM/Contacts/Etc windows in separate-processes/plugins/ubiquitous-computing/accessibility)

[14:29] Merov Linden: frankly, having those UI architecture change in the JIRA and start to work on those would be great IMO
[14:30] Latif Khalifa: Uhm, problems: dropdowns too hard to use for in world objects, inability to see multiple profiles at once, inability to look at a group and personal profile at the same time, non-transparent windows, huge ugly dark grey blobls on the screen like camera controls, local chat toasts, inability to dock locak chat with the rest of conversations....
[14:30] Merov Linden: so we can have a base for both "casual users" and "experts"
[14:30] Ardy Lay: Lots of little space wasters add up. Does the mini-map really need a titlebar?
[14:30] Youri Ashton: im looking at the orriginal installed 2.x, not the things you can download
[14:30] Latif Khalifa: Merov, I'd argue that 2.0 is much harder on casual user too
[14:30] Chaley May: also i would like the ability to still be able to acceess my friends/groups list while i have a profile open
[14:30] Memorial Dae: well if you want to access the HELP for that window yes
[14:31] Dzonatas Sol: the original install is gonna be for new users... not for advanced where you would know how to update the viewer
[14:31] Latif Khalifa: i have seem people jumping around instead of chatting since 2.0 has to manualyl focus on chat bar
[14:31] Merov Linden: Dzonatas: +1
[14:31] Youri Ashton: i spoken to residents that actually left thanks to 2.x
[14:31] Youri Ashton: they found it so hard to use and to adapt to it, that they wouldnt be bothered with even trying
[14:32] Chaley May: the new viewer seems great for newbies because it will take them at least a week to figure out that viewer 2 stinks and by that time they mightve heard about the old viewer :)
[14:32] Latif Khalifa: lol
[14:32] Merov Linden: adapting means they were already using the old one
[14:32] Youri Ashton: and i dont talk about 1 or 2 residents, i talk about 30+
[14:32] Dzonatas Sol: look at WoW users.. that found it hard to do RAIDS until lua scripts...
[14:32] Dzonatas Sol: they*
[14:32] Merov Linden: I can relate, it took me a while to get used to the new UI
[14:32] Merov Linden: that being said, they are features I like
[14:33] Youri Ashton: not just users that are known with the old viewer merov, also new residents
[14:33] Youri Ashton: that just got in
[14:33] Bronson Blackadder: well at least it made newbs and older residents equal
[14:33] Merov Linden: my favorite one being having landmarks as "bookmarks"
[14:33] Merov Linden: and the top address/search
[14:33] Bronson Blackadder: equally clueless where everything was in the viewer
[14:33] Latif Khalifa: lol
[14:33] Merov Linden: but that's juts me :)
[14:33] Merov Linden: that being said, I'm running SG 1.3.2 at the moment :)
[14:34] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh
[14:34] Bronson Blackadder: oh and... meow
[14:34] Latif Khalifa: people have invested huge amounts of time on making their profile nice just to find that their profile description is a tiny tiny text field on 2.0 profile with rl pic huge, and very few use it
[14:34] Youri Ashton: oh i dont deny that there are no good things about 2.x, sure there are. i just say its design is a main flaw that needs to change so it is easier to use for everyone
[14:34] Aimee Linden: yeah, tbh when the idea of the navigation and favourites bars was first introduced, I thought "bah, I'll just turn that off, don't see the point" but I actually use it a lot
[14:34] Merov Linden: don't tell anyone ok? I know I can count on you being discrete... (/tongue firmly planted in cheek)
[14:34] Latif Khalifa: also the list of groups is next to impossible to read
[14:34] Chaley May: yeah the profiles are awful
[14:35] Chaley May: i have taken a dislike to reading profiles at all in viewer 2
[14:35] Latif Khalifa: all jammed in a single line.. just terribe
[14:35] Youri Ashton: profiles is indeed also a bad design flaw, it doesnt even look remotely like the orriginal and is hard to read as well for most people
[14:35] Aimee Linden: and auto-hide option for the nav and fav bars might be nice though to get the world view space back
[14:35] Aimee Linden: *an
[14:35] Latif Khalifa: and you cannot "group surf", or pick surf, only one thing in the side bar at the time
[14:35] Youri Ashton: that there are not complaints coming to LL doesnt mean there are none
[14:35] Dzonatas Sol: i'm sure some favorite bars are full with each office hour
[14:35] Boroondas Gupte: or put navigation and menu on a single bar:
[14:35] Latif Khalifa: 2.0 UI really is a big step backward in discoverability...
[14:36] Boroondas Gupte: (I hope that's the right issue, can't access it anymore)
[14:36] Merov Linden: Youri: no more complaints coming? there are... be sure... and we hear them...
[14:36] Aimee Linden: yes Boroondas
[14:36] Dzonatas Sol: Aimee, yes... auto-hide.. I actually have more than just nav bar in mid, however
[14:36] Dzonatas Sol: mind*
[14:37] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh, Merov, this reminds me of something I emant to ask: what's up with the EXT-* jiras?
[14:37] Boroondas Gupte: could be moved to SNOW?
[14:37] Youri Ashton: lol, i dont try to offend you merov, i just try to make sure you understand the importance of my point
[14:37] Merov Linden: k, I can see that "2.0 UI improvements" is a popular subject
[14:37] Thickbrick Sleaford: Are they only bisible to peopel who were on the 2.0 closed beta?
[14:37] Latif Khalifa: hm, improvements :P
[14:37] Techwolf Lupindo: Oh yea, I had one EXT/BTEST that I filed...its missing or can't access it.
[14:37] Thickbrick Sleaford: *visible
[14:37] Aimee Linden: on the Mac viewer at least, I'd like to take the menus out of the viewer complete and put them on the Mac neu bar where they belong :)
[14:38] Merov Linden: EXT-* jiras are mined and triaged and used to plan 2.x
[14:38] Latif Khalifa: mac biggot :P
[14:38] Merov Linden: there are looked at a lot
[14:38] Aimee Linden: lol
[14:38] Dzonatas Sol: Amiee, just let me know the RESTful resource you want... I'll add them to snow-375 =)
[14:38] Ardy Lay: I had a lot of EXT/BTEST issues still open when they all vanished. 24 of them I think.
[14:38] Latif Khalifa: at this point i think it's easer to start with 1.x UI to get something useful, than to make 2.0 usable
[14:38] XStreetSL Magic Box : SL Exchange - Delivered item [NVE] Sculpted Sand Dune - Boxed (no-transfer).
[14:38] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: biggest complaint is a meta-complaint. So many huge regressions were made by introducing Viewer 2.0 UI, and now SG devs are expected to fix them, which is going to take at least a year. That's a disaster done for political reasons.
[14:38] Merov Linden tries to think of a way to channel all these energies productively
[14:38] Youri Ashton: latif: good point
[14:39] Boroondas Gupte: closed beta users *were* able to access BTEST and some chosen EXT issues (mainly those moved from BTEST). But now the jira group that granted access was deleted, I think.
[14:39] Thickbrick Sleaford doesn't have permissions to view EXT-* jiras
[14:39] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh
[14:39] Youri Ashton: i think latif actually have a valid point, it is a lot easier to start working with 1.x and see what possibilities can be worked on
[14:39] Youri Ashton: however, i do NOT suggest that that viewer should be the follow up for 1.23
[14:40] Youri Ashton: more as a side track so to speak
[14:40] Youri Ashton: just for testing in this group so to say
[14:40] Latif Khalifa: well if 2.0 scaffolding as merov calls it is as flexible as they suggest it should be possible to build a decent UI on top of 2.0 engine
[14:41] Youri Ashton: if latif's idea actually worked, then we can plant it into 2.0 and test it in there to see how it would fit in
[14:41] Ardy Lay: I think it was mentioned that the UI framework is easier to work with in V2. I have no reason to doubt that as I saw a lot of hackish stuff in V1.23.5 - I suppose the thing to try is molding V2 UI
[14:41] Aimee Linden: take a look at the patches for SNOW-575 and VWR-6918 for a small example
[14:41] JIRA helper:

[#SNOW-575] Reimplement Menu item to hide object selection outlines for 2.0

[14:41] JIRA helper:

[#VWR-6918] Building > "Hide/Show Selection Outlines" with key combo, menu option, or both.

[14:41] Merov Linden: Borrondas: OK to move EXT-6044 to SNOW
[14:41] Thickbrick Sleaford: The XUI editing tools in 2.0 are also better/easier to use.
[14:41] Ardy Lay: I just get lost in the code so easily. I would like some sort of documentation.
[14:41] Morgaine Dinova: I suggest that Dzonatas' SNOW-375 framework be added, as a starting point for a new UI framework.
[14:42] Aimee Linden: they do the same thing, but the 2.0 one only involves about 3 lines of C++ if I remember rightly, the rest is just XML
[14:42] Merov Linden: Indeed Aimee
[14:42] Techwolf Lupindo: I tried to view EXT-6044, got need to log in, so I log in and get "PERMISSION VIOLATION" wth?
[14:42] Youri Ashton: morg, yeah, think its a start
[14:42] Boroondas Gupte: Techwolf, that's expected
[14:42] Merov Linden: that's what I called "scafolding" (don't like the word "architecture" for everything)
[14:42] Youri Ashton: removing that thing and putting back in a button may work
[14:43] Pixel Gausman: Merov: i react the same way to the overuse of the word plugin
[14:43] Boroondas Gupte: Merov, can you do the move (or maybe clone, if the ProductEngine people still need it)?
[14:43] Merov Linden: that's what I don't want to go back to in porting back 1.x...
[14:43] Dzonatas Sol: I took baby steps not to disable any of the current framework
[14:43] Youri Ashton: a plugin will always be a plugin pixel, no matter how you turn it around :p
[14:44] Merov Linden: Boroondas: give me sec
[14:44] Merov Linden doing the move
[14:44] Morgaine Dinova: Jira-helper didn't seem to trigger on SNOW-375 --
[14:44] JIRA helper: [#SNOW-375] REST/HTTP based API: "thinking outside the box" Human Interface Devices (i.e. Chat/IM/Contacts/Etc windows in separate-processes/plugins/ubiquitous-computing/accessibility)
[14:44] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, it did then, hehe
[14:44] Latha Serevi: Doesn't SNOW-375 involve a lot of specific API building? So for each new UI component to be detachified on client side, someone has to write some API code to obtain the needed info and serve it out by http?
[14:45] Dzonatas Sol: Latha, it's REST/HTTP based so it is peer-agnostic
[14:45] Morgaine Dinova: Latha: adds a REST resource for each new thing you want to poke from a script
[14:45] Youri Ashton: hmm... is it possible to side track 2.x to a test version so playing with the design can be done in the hope to get a better version?
[14:45] Merov Linden: Boroondas: the EXT is assigned internally... so I can't move it and pull the rug off the feet of the assigned Linden
[14:45] Boroondas Gupte: clone?
[14:45] Youri Ashton: it should be easier then to 'transfer' the new design if ready to the 2.x
[14:46] Merov Linden: I need to comment in there first
[14:46] Merov Linden: he might be working on it already for all I know
[14:46] Latha Serevi: Create new Jira group for the subset of EXT entries of interest?
[14:46] Youri Ashton: basically clone it indeed, so its a 1:1 idea and then modifying the design so its easier and working to our advantage
[14:46] Latif Khalifa: they should have been in VWR or SNOW anyway
[14:46] Boroondas Gupte: Otherwise I can try to re-file it from memory ...
[14:47] Youri Ashton: no, im not merov :p
[14:47] Boroondas Gupte: (I still have my screenshot-mock-ups
[14:47] Youri Ashton: im mostly too caughed up with the CT team atm :p
[14:47] Youri Ashton: but, well... i do like to give it a try, think more would like that opertunity
[14:47] Merov Linden: actually, I'm wondering why most of those have not been moved wholesale to VWR...
[14:48] Dzonatas Sol: EXT readable only for certain people?
[14:48] Boroondas Gupte: Dzonatas, yes, only Linden and ProductEngine, I guess.
[14:48] Merov Linden: yes
[14:48] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think we need a grand-plan for moving forward with the 2.x/1.x thing: Do we want various small UI improvments, or do we want to do a coherent "classic" mode, involving both switchable behaviour changes and a XUI skin?
[14:48] Youri Ashton: merov, then we, the residents, can not try to help LL out on this one
[14:49] Merov Linden: instead of going through cloning lots of those, I'd rather make them public by moving them
[14:49] Youri Ashton: we will need a little bit of info on the how and what without destroying it
[14:49] Merov Linden: I need to talk to whoever manage those though
[14:49] Thickbrick Sleaford: Or to put it differenlt, change current behavior, or add an option for changed behavior?
[14:49] Merov Linden: let me take that as an action item
[14:50] Latif Khalifa: Alexa Linden would be the one to talk to
[14:50] Youri Ashton: so it might be possible to give out a version that may be changed in the hope for a better design that does work good?
[14:50] Merov Linden: I do not know the motivation behind making those private
[14:50] Merov Linden: Alexa, yeap
[14:50] Boroondas Gupte: Thickbrick, maybe both? Some stuff might be worth changing for 2.0 mode, too.
[14:50] Latif Khalifa: those were created durign closed beta
[14:50] Boroondas Gupte: yep
[14:50] Youri Ashton: lol, need to poke her anyways for another thing, so could add it to the list :p
[14:50] Dzonatas Sol: *bites* lips to silence UI fea....
[14:50] Thickbrick Sleaford: Boroondas, agreed, but I think it (also) depends on how likely it is to be taken upstream
[14:50] Techwolf Lupindo: I think Alexa Linden is the one that deleted those groups.
[14:51] Latif Khalifa: Borondas, having ability for "classic" ui in 2.0 would be great indeed
[14:51] Merov Linden: Tech: groups need to be disbanded at some point, the problem is where does the info float to...
[14:51] Latif Khalifa: dunno how feasable is to maintaing two interfaces
[14:52] Techwolf Lupindo nods
[14:52] Merov Linden: Latif: it would be 2 skins on a single UI engine with wider capabilities
[14:52] Pixel Gausman: Latif: you think that dilutes resources trying to do both?
[14:52] Merov Linden: at least that's my favorite solution
[14:52] Boroondas Gupte: I'd like a modular aproach. Like, I might want the location bar but not the side bar.
[14:52] Techwolf Lupindo: I can't access my own bugs in EXT now. But I can acces my own SEC bugs and no one else cam.
[14:52] Latif Khalifa: Merov, yes, that's what i was thinking about
[14:52] Pixel Gausman: Merov: multiple skins would be nice
[14:53] Latif Khalifa: but for exampel, can 2.0 architecture support simple local chat?
[14:53] Thickbrick Sleaford: I get the impression doing a full skin is a *lot* of work, but there are peopel doing that
[14:53] Latif Khalifa: instead of these ugly grey blobs that popup ow
[14:53] Merov Linden: there are people who love to do that Thickbrick... not just our type... :)
[14:53] Pixel Gausman: in earlier betas there was a menu option for the old style local chat
[14:53] Pixel Gausman: is tha gone?
[14:53] Dzonatas Sol: GTK has tons of themes... no need to reinvent the wheel with all those avail
[14:53] Aimee Linden: I believe people were talking on iRC the other day about enumerating multiple available skins from the skins directory and presenting them for selection
[14:54] Aimee Linden: that would be a good, and probably pretty easy starting point
[14:54] Memorial Dae: Agreed
[14:54] Latif Khalifa: Pixel, no 2.0 could never display simple local chat
[14:54] Thickbrick Sleaford: Dzo: gtk themes are not comparable to XUI skins. Skins can have completly different widgets.
[14:54] Morgaine Dinova: Before you make changes, it's best to know where one is going. Is Kirsten's version of the V2 UI a possible future direction for SG2?
[14:54] Boroondas Gupte: Aimee, that0d be SNOW-614
[14:54] JIRA helper:

[#SNOW-614] Detect UI skins at runtime

[14:54] Merov Linden: Hey Pixel, now you're here: how's VWRAP Login port in SG2.0 going?
[14:54] Pixel Gausman: Merov: havent started
[14:55] Techwolf Lupindo: And somekind of hirechilly so if one does a skin wiht a few changes, does not need to dupe the entire defauilt skin.
[14:55] Pixel Gausman: :(
[14:55] Youri Ashton: i find it more interresting to change the background color or opacy of the chat
[14:55] Dzonatas Sol: GTK cabn have complete different widgets... it's not limited to the set that comes with it
[14:55] Merov Linden: what?
[14:55] Latif Khalifa: Pixel, there is option to have plain text chat history, but not the chat itself, it's always ugly grey flickering blobs
[14:55] Merov Linden: ;)
[14:55] Youri Ashton: its hard to read sometimes
[14:55] Aimee Linden: thanks Boroondas :) knew it was there somewhere
[14:55] Youri Ashton: and what was discussed during a bug triage, the letter type needs to be modified as well
[14:55] Boroondas Gupte: letter type?
[14:55] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: please take a look at Kirsten's 2.0 some time. It's hard to discuss something without a common reference.
[14:55] Youri Ashton: its making it difficul as well
[14:56] Techwolf Lupindo: Colored/hightlighted plain chat history would help a lot in 2.0.
[14:56] Boroondas Gupte: colored how?
[14:56] Merov Linden: could be a good "Hitler parody": "Merov is told that the main SG1.x specific feature port to SG2.0 have not started yet..."
[14:56] Latif Khalifa: haha
[14:56] Youri Ashton: this letter type somehow messes with the readability, I think it was Alexa during that OH that actually agreed on it
[14:56] Bronson Blackadder: lol
[14:56] Latif Khalifa: if it doesn't get taken down for copyright infringement :P
[14:56] Youri Ashton: lol merov
[14:56] Pixel Gausman: you know there was so much negative feedback on local chat during the viewer2 beta, i'm really surprised it wasnt changed
[14:57] Latha Serevi: Latif: I just make the chat popups go away altogether. Tech: My plain text chat history is colored green for avatar names and object-chat, but could be more colorful.
[14:57] Merov Linden: o my, it's almost 3pm
[14:57] Techwolf Lupindo: The owner of that film has gone ballistic and sent ton of takedown letters to the paradies on youtube.
[14:57] Youri Ashton: good call merov
[14:57] Memorial Dae: time to poof
[14:57] Youri Ashton: time to head to next OH :)
[14:57] Pixel Gausman: later kids
[14:57] Latif Khalifa: i know, chat in 1.x works so well ,it was really evil to "improve" it like 2.0 did
[14:57] Youri Ashton: thanks for the OH lindens :)
[14:57] Ardy Lay: I tried Kirstin's S20. She pushed stuff around and changed the colors a bit but did not touch on the fundamental UI flaws that ruin usablity for me.
[14:57] Memorial Dae: Thank you for a most INFORMATIVE discussion.
[14:57] Merov Linden: hey guys, one thing I want and *need* to do is scrub all those "unscheduled" bugs
[14:57] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: 3pm, but you still haven't acknowledged the existence of Kirsten's new version of 2.0 :-)
[14:58] Youri Ashton: and remember merov, SL will loose a lot of residents if 2.x keeps the design as it is :p
[14:58] Morgaine Dinova: We need to know what's in the possibl;e future, for consideration at least :-)
[14:58] Merov Linden: Morgaine : I know of it. glad SG 2.0 enabled that :)
[14:58] Latha Serevi: I suppose I'd better try Kirsten's too, eh? OK.
[14:58] Merov Linden: I saw the great video Naofan did with it
[14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: Kristens is in my gentoo overlay
[14:58] Merov Linden: video*s*
[14:59] Youri Ashton: aight, bye bye al!
[14:59] Latif Khalifa: well i think linden management is going to go "OOPS" after they read april concurrency and in world economy data :P
[14:59] Aimee Linden is working on training her bugs to type, there's more of them than me, so they should be able to fix themselves quicker
[14:59] Morgaine Dinova: Merov: cool. It's one possible direction that the 2.0 SG UI could head it.
[14:59] Merov Linden: Aimee: LOL
[14:59] Morgaine Dinova: head in*
[14:59] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think a "call for patches" for calssic-like UI changes is in order, and when we have a few of those, we can make a single central pref for those. (considering people who make skins might or might not intersect with people attending these meetings)
[15:00] Merov Linden: ok guys, next time, would you be game for some bug scrub? (bug review and decide to take in or not)
[15:00] Latif Khalifa: Thickbrick++
[15:00] Dzonatas Sol: There are several under the hood changes made that crippled the classic UI
[15:00] Latha Serevi: Merov, bug scrub sounds more productive than viewer flame to me.
[15:00] Dzonatas Sol: so the classic UI just needs to be updated
[15:00] Thickbrick Sleaford: Dzonatas; yes, but we need to start somewhere
[15:00] Dzonatas Sol: go for it
[15:01] Dzonatas Sol: I've started Icesphere... it has parts of the classic look
[15:01] Morgaine Dinova: UXIG discussion is in OSgrid today folks, in Wright Plaza, right now. See you there.
[15:01] Ardy Lay: I don't think the entire V2 UI is useless. :-) I just have needs that it doesn't currently come close to meeting.
[15:01] Merov Linden: Thickbrick: making the UI architecture more capable is a good thing IMO
[15:02] Merov Linden: so go for it.
[15:02] Ardy Lay: All my reports on those are no inaccessable to me and I am not in a humor to reconstruct them.
[15:02] Ardy Lay: -no +now
[15:02] Merov Linden took the action on taking to Alexa about old EXT bugs
[15:02] Ardy Lay: Thanks Merov
[15:03] Merov Linden: See you Tuesday guys :)
[15:03] Boroondas Gupte: lots of gems in there :-)

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