Open Source Meeting/2010-07-13

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Agenda Tuesday, 13 July 2010

  1. Weekly Snowglobe update - Merov Linden
    1. Monday's merge (viewer-external > Snowglobe 2 trunk) — is it there, yet?
  2. What are the status/the plans for Arabic language support? (VWR-112, MISC-1281) (For Chat/IM/Note Cards, etc., not necessarily translated UI)
    • Issues are right-to-left and ligatures
    • Same issues affect other languages, too (See this jira comment for major right-to-left ones. There's much more depending on ligatures, I guess.)
    • Can/should we port/re-implement the old patches to use pango for text rendering? (VWR-10131)
  3. Your topic here!

If we run out of topics before the end of the meeting, we'll triage Snowglobe or Open Source specific Jira Issues from the list below.

Jira Issues

  1. After discussion, r3349 was reverted. Do these still need discussion (e.g. for viewer-external)?:
    1. SNOW-649 Changeset 3349 added unit test to llplugin but forgot LL_TESTS, resulting in a build failure in lltut.cpp
    2. SNOW-650 Tries to build pulseaudio when pulseaudio not found.
    3. SNOW-651 Standalone build failure r3349, cmake error on SLPlugin
    4. SNOW-654 Bulding of integration_tests when not needed
    5. SNOW-658 Notifier Issue Since [sldev-commits] r3349
    6. SNOW-619 (Robin Cornelius)
    7. SNOW-713 Make libllcommon shared for SLPlugin + plugins on 1.4
    8. SNOW-596 Ready to commit (Aleric Inglewood)
    9. SNOW-593 idem
  2. Unscheduled SNOW issues triage: would be good to go with the community through those and decide for some what we should take immediately (2.0 or 1.4) or later.

If you think an issue warrants a deeper discussion, please add it as topic to one of the agendas above.


[14:01] Latif Khalifa: hey Merov :)
[14:01] Merov Linden: hi guys
[14:01] Merov Linden: I see some folks added things to the agenda, thatnks
[14:02] Merov Linden: it's 2pm so I think we should start
[14:02] Merov Linden: about the merge: we did have a successsful full cycle on build off TeamCity for Snowglobe 2.x trunk
[14:02] Merov Linden: good
[14:03] WolfPup Lowenhar: im building in windows 7 32-bitwith no problems i just wish while i building in in release mode in vs2005 i could turn on all the test so it woud not take me nearly 2 hours to do so
[14:03] WolfPup Lowenhar: kewl
[14:03] Merov Linden: I'm still struggling with errors on the 1.x trunk though (erors when packaging the Mac build)
[14:04] Merov Linden: also the export to viewer-external (i.e. the build of viewer-public) on TeamCity does seem to work too
[14:04] Merov Linden: since I haven't seen anyone raising a red flag on my proposal to merge
[14:04] Merov Linden checks the opensource-dev list rapidly
[14:05] Merov Linden: ok, none this morning either
[14:05] WolfPup Lowenhar: merov getting emails about every 10 min say buid successful for about an 8 hr block
[14:05] Dzonatas Sol: yay
[14:05] Merov Linden: so I'll go ahead with that big commit merge
[14:06] Dzonatas Sol: so is svn or hg more up to date now?
[14:06] WolfPup Lowenhar: so tomarrow will be the start of building 2.1 snowglobe?
[14:06] Merov Linden: WolfPup: I receive those too and it's due to the fact I rebuild some branches often right now
[14:06] Merov Linden: trying to fix scripts
[14:06] WolfPup Lowenhar: oh ok
[14:06] WolfPup Lowenhar: so when is the switch to hg?
[14:07] Merov Linden: TeamCity is set up in such a way though that it build all 3 platforms at once so you get success notification for the 2 other platforms
[14:07] WolfPup Lowenhar: instead of svn?
[14:07] Merov Linden: switch to hg: right after I stabilize the TeamCity build
[14:07] WolfPup Lowenhar: oh ok
[14:07] Merov Linden: It's not going to be a fun activity (lots of scripts to tweak)
[14:08] Merov Linden: but I'd rather bite the bullet and do it now
[14:08] Merov Linden: I'm tired of waiting for the "code split" poject to complete
[14:08] WolfPup Lowenhar: code split?
[14:08] Merov Linden: it doesn't look like it will anytime soon (or not soon enough...)
[14:09] Boroondas Gupte: how far it that project, yet?
[14:09] Merov Linden: code split: our internal repo has everything (viewer + server) in one big humongo repo
[14:09] Merov Linden: it'd be *much* easier for export if viewer and server were separated
[14:09] WolfPup Lowenhar: oooowwwwwwwwwwwww
[14:09] Merov Linden: ideally, we could then just clone the internal viewer"
[14:10] Merov Linden: Eventually, that's what we'll do but that code split project is a stumbling block
[14:10] Dzonatas Sol: yay!
[14:10] WolfPup Lowenhar: i guess ill have to look at the transscript for this meeting
[14:10] Dzonatas Sol: that'll change a lot of things for the better i think
[14:10] Merov Linden: actually, it's not a "stumbling block", it's so big it blocks the trail completely....
[14:11] WolfPup Lowenhar: my net being a pain this afternoon
[14:11] Merov Linden: th problem is that it involves a big sync with everybody when we do this
[14:11] Merov Linden: it's not something I or some isolated bloke can just decide and do
[14:12] Dzonatas Sol: they've relied heavy that the llcommon, llxml, etc files will be the same for the viewer and server
[14:12] Merov Linden: actually, if you look at it, the "export" script is a way to ensure code split via script
[14:12] Latif Khalifa: does hg support stuff like svn extern?
[14:12] Dzonatas Sol: hg has a plugin
[14:12] Merov Linden: Latif: I think it does I just can't remember the name on the top of my head
[14:13] Merov Linden: plugin? could be...
[14:13] Latif Khalifa: you would still need some common code betwee the server and the viewer, so i was thinking that could be done with some equiv of svn extern
[14:14] Merov Linden: ideally, that code code should be built as libs
[14:14] Merov Linden: well, there's a lot of base types, base methods (llmath) etc...
[14:15] Merov Linden: that's not worth defining an API for those and it's good to have a common code base for all of this
[14:15] Latif Khalifa: yeah
[14:15] Merov Linden: k, that was for point 1
[14:15] Merov Linden: point 2: arabic language support
[14:16] Merov Linden: whoa! interesting i18n issue :)
[14:16] Merov Linden: Bidi in UI...
[14:16] Boroondas Gupte: I was asked whether open source contributors could implement this, so I thought I'd bring it up here.
[14:16] Dzonatas Sol: i was handed a patch for arabic language but i don't know if it fixes anything... looks like it updates the manifest to pull mscv80
[14:17] Merov Linden: That's be great to have FLOSS contributions on this
[14:17] Boroondas Gupte: Should I ask the resident who asked me to come here? He's online ATM.
[14:17] Merov Linden: Hebrew is right to left too and we just happen to have a native speaker in the Snowglobe contributors
[14:17] Dzonatas Sol: it was hard for me to communicate with the person
[14:17] Merov Linden: Boroondas: sure!
[14:18] Dzonatas Sol: trying to find the patch...
[14:18] WolfPup Lowenhar: ill even turn on my translator for him if it might help
[14:19] Khaled Dix: hi
[14:19] Boroondas Gupte: I think Khaled understands English alright.
[14:19] Khaled Dix: yes
[14:19] Boroondas Gupte: hi Khaled
[14:19] Khaled Dix: i can
[14:20] Merov Linden: Hi Khaled
[14:20] Khaled Dix: hi merov
[14:20] Merov Linden: Boroondas told us you are interested in may be contributing to an Arabic support patch?
[14:21] Khaled Dix: i can tp friend
[14:21] Khaled Dix: yes
[14:21] Boroondas Gupte: Right-to-Left aparently isn't the whole deal, most sequences of single letters have to be converted to matching ligatures (or whatever they're called for Arabic), too.
[14:22] Dzonatas Sol: I'm guessing mscv80 has extra support
[14:22] Merov Linden: yes
[14:22] Boroondas Gupte: So I guess it would be best to resort to a text rendering library that can already do all of that.
[14:22] Aleric Inglewood: Ok we can begin :)
[14:23] Merov Linden: indeed: no need to reinvent that
[14:23] Merov Linden: I do not know however what we use for text chat rendering at the moment
[14:24] Merov Linden: I know its Unicode compliant and we use (or should use) UTF-8 encoding all the way
[14:24] Boroondas Gupte: a mix of homebrewn and FreeType.
[14:24] Khaled Dix: aha
[14:24] Khaled Dix: that we use to arabic
[14:24] Boroondas Gupte: (if that's still accurate, might have changed since)
[14:24] Khaled Dix: UTF-8
[14:25] Merov Linden: folks using chinese, japanese and other languages would have told us
[14:25] Khaled Dix: and all windows versions supported arabic
[14:25] Khaled Dix: y
[14:25] Merov Linden: but bidi creates specific UI challenges, it's not just a problem of supporting the proper glyph rendering
[14:26] Merov Linden: Windows is one thing, what about the other OSes?
[14:26] Merov Linden: Mac does have ways to render Bidi I'm sure
[14:26] WolfPup Lowenhar: like linux ans mac
[14:26] Boroondas Gupte: at VWR-10131 Alissa Sabre has posted a screenshot of a modified viewer using Pango.
[14:26] JIRA helper:
[#VWR-10131] Use pango for text rendering
[14:26] Khaled Dix: Lunix and apple
[14:26] Khaled Dix: too
[14:27] Dzonatas Sol: looks like the characters are there... it's just the direction
[14:27] Dzonatas Sol: its all going left to right
[14:28] Boroondas Gupte: and the conversion of single characters to ligature glyphes (users don't enter ligatures)
[14:28] Dzonatas Sol: usually there is a mode or key to hit to switch direction
[14:28] Merov Linden: yeah, that's the Bidi aspect (Bi Directional)
[14:28] Dzonatas Sol: sometimes it is automatic with the language of the word typed
[14:28] Merov Linden: chat is one thing, what about UI localization though?
[14:29] Boroondas Gupte: That can come later, I guess.
[14:29] Merov Linden: I guess so too
[14:29] Merov Linden: being able to express oneselves with fellow native speakers in the proper language is more important
[14:29] Khaled Dix: /photos/uncategorized/2007/12/12/multilanguage.jpg
[14:30] Boroondas Gupte: Khaled, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think most users are able to read English, but would like to their native language when talking to each other.
[14:30] Dzonatas Sol: Khaled, what was that jira issue you showed me
[14:31] Merov Linden: Hmmm... Henri is mentioning perf issue with Pango...
[14:31] Boroondas Gupte: Does anyone know whether Alissa is still around?
[14:31] Khaled Dix: this is pic for viewer can write in arabic
[14:31] Khaled Dix: not really... most people in middleast or arabic countries have problems with english
[14:31] Merov Linden: anyone with data on this?
[14:31] Khaled Dix: i tale from
[14:31] JIRA helper: [#VWR-112] Arabic language needs to be displayed right to left rather than left to right
[14:31] Latif Khalifa: I have poor experience with pango in another context.. writing gui apps on linux
[14:31] Boroondas Gupte: not yet, I guess (except maybe Alissa?)
[14:31] Toki LittleBoots: Most people I encounter in heavily-Japanese sims are not able to read english.
[14:31] Khaled Dix: nd we always have to translate to them what is being typed
[14:32] Boroondas Gupte: ic
[14:32] Dzonatas Sol:
[14:32] JIRA helper: [#VWR-112] Arabic language needs to be displayed right to left rather than left to right
[14:32] Dzonatas Sol: Yes, Yes, that one
[14:32] Boroondas Gupte: so the UI would have to be translated, too
[14:32] Khaled Dix: i can do that
[14:32] Boroondas Gupte: :-)
[14:32] Dzonatas Sol: Yes, indeed,,
[14:32] Merov Linden: well, there's quite a bit to read on those 2 JIRAs for sure
[14:33] Merov Linden: I'm going to move them to SNOW
[14:33] Merov Linden: so that we keep close tabs on them
[14:33] Aleric Inglewood: Was the 2.1 merge already discussed?
[14:33] Merov Linden: Aleric: yes
[14:34] Boroondas Gupte: by the way, could we get some cooperation between CT and Snowglobe/FLOSS?
[14:34] Aleric Inglewood: Do I want to know how you solved the water-flicker patch collisions?
[14:34] Merov Linden: summary: TeamCity works on viewer-public (to export to viewer-external) and Snowglobe 2.x trunk so I'll commit the merge
[14:35] Merov Linden: Do you want to know? Seems like a rethorical question... :)
[14:35] Merov Linden: but, yes, I hacked something which, I think works fine
[14:35] Merov Linden: that was the trickiest merge conflicts
[14:36] Aleric Inglewood: Well, A) You solved the conflict, B) you didn't and it's broken now, C) you started with 2.1 and then merged in snowglobe patches that merged and just left out those that didn't.
[14:36] Merov Linden: I'm wary of creating a patch for this as it's *massive*
[14:36] Aleric Inglewood: I don't want to know if it's C
[14:37] Merov Linden: I did A)
[14:37] Aleric Inglewood: Great! :)
[14:37] Merov Linden: I do believe I ported water flickering fix correctly
[14:37] Khaled Dix: :)
[14:37] Merov Linden: but I'm just human (not a program)
[14:37] Aleric Inglewood: PS As promised two weeks ago.. I did commit SNOW-713 today.
[14:37] JIRA helper:
[#SNOW-713] Global objects in libllcommon duplicated in plugins
[14:37] WolfPup Lowenhar: that means when it hits the SVN server it is going to be a masive amount of data flow
[14:38] Merov Linden: I saw the commit notification fly by
[14:38] Merov Linden: and, BTW, I am trying to fix TeamCity for SG1.4 build so that we can all get binaries...
[14:38] Nicky Perian: Will darwin be broken?
[14:38] Merov Linden: right now, it fails on packaging the dmg on Mac
[14:39] Merov Linden: nah... it's a stupid dmg creationg issue...
[14:39] Aleric Inglewood: What is dmg?
[14:39] Dzonatas Sol: deb
[14:39] Merov Linden: the installable package for Mac
[14:39] WolfPup Lowenhar: it is like the tarbal in linux
[14:40] Merov Linden: another TeamCity breakage is the build of old 1.23 viewers...
[14:40] Merov Linden: not something anyone of you can help me with though <sigh/>
[14:40] Jacob Urvile: Hi guys
[14:41] Dzonatas Sol: I vote to not worry about 1.23
[14:41] Merov Linden: Anyhow, just to let you know that I *know* the 1.4 binaries have not been produced yet and, es, I'm working on it....
[14:41] Aleric Inglewood: It works on linux, but I just can't test under windows or Mac. MichelleZ helped with windows and according to Nicky it "works", but he runs into all kinds of problems even without the patch so it's unclear how good it is. I worked on this till the vomitting point and almost literally overworked me on it :/ ... Sorry, but I'm a linux C++ coder, I CANNOT do the parts that are left, including testing windows and fixing windows/Mac :/
[14:41] WolfPup Lowenhar: my roommate can only run 1.23 on the old system they are useing
[14:41] Merov Linden: I want this whole TeamCity machinery to be *green*
[14:41] Latif Khalifa: I'm running TeamCity for ;)
[14:43] Techwolf Lupindo: Aleric, I seen on minor bug in the commit allready, tests that was if not standalone was UNifed. I going to add if LL_TESTS to them so one can build with or without the tests.
[14:43] Merov Linden: Aleric: you mean that your commit *might* break mac and Windows builds?
[14:44] Techwolf Lupindo: I have a question: Why the change from parabuild to teamcity?
[14:44] Aleric Inglewood: Merov: Did you test it?
[14:44] Merov Linden: apparently, Windows SG1.4 went through....
[14:44] Merov Linden: Mac is blocking on dmg so the build works....
[14:45] Nicky Perian: i think my probs are VC versus VS related
[14:45] Merov Linden: I haven't tested
[14:45] Merov Linden: I've been 100% fixing build script issues since Friday :(
[14:46] Latif Khalifa: (for those curious what teamcity looks like, you can see - click login as guest on the bottom)
[14:46] Nicky Perian: on 1.4 build
[14:46] Merov Linden: Techwolf: that was an ongoing project decided by the build farm folks, company wide
[14:47] Aleric Inglewood: I will only say something works when I can test it myself... I'm not the person to work on windows or mac build system stuff :(. I have put *A LOT* of time into this, even installed windows on one of my PC's that required me to erase the existing linux install on it and reinstall that new (needed to free 160 GB) ... but the conclusion just has to be that I cannot test it, and therefore not fix it if it's broken. I did rely on remarks from Nicky that it worked (see the comments for 713). Nobody tested it on Mac.
[14:47] Merov Linden: so I had to go with the flow... it's painful right now but I've been promised beautiful summy days and endless felicity after ... (sure...)
[14:48] Merov Linden: k, I can buiild on Mac nd smoke test
[14:48] Merov Linden: anyone else building on Mac?
[14:48] Merov Linden: where's Aimee?
[14:48] Aleric Inglewood points at Toki
[14:48] Aleric Inglewood: heheh
[14:48] Toki LittleBoots: Hey!
[14:48] Toki LittleBoots: :p
[14:48] Aleric Inglewood: no, he got a Mac but never build anything (yet) ;)
[14:49] Merov Linden: tsk tsk....
[14:49] Toki LittleBoots: If somebody gives me a 5-minute run-down on what I'm supposed to do, I probably could.
[14:50] Merov Linden grabs a wiki page
[14:50] Merov Linden:
[14:50] Merov Linden: there
[14:50] Boroondas Gupte: Toki, expect at least half an hour, rather than 5 min
[14:50] Merov Linden: I updated those this week so it's all nice and clean and should work...
[14:51] Merov Linden: that being said, Oz himself is having trouble building on Mac (he's more a Linux guy so gets lost in XCode)
[14:51] Merov Linden: I paid attention going through all the instruction *from scratch* but, still, there are failure cases I haven't captured
[14:52] Boroondas Gupte: did he succeed on Linux, yet? (Last week you said he was trying that, didn't you?)
[14:53] Merov Linden: erm... on Linux... he has a 64 bits machine and we don't make it easy to build that as you know...
[14:53] Merov Linden face palm
[14:53] Aleric Inglewood: I have updated wiki pages too last week. Most notably and I added a lot of stuff regarding standalone.
[14:53] Boroondas Gupte: All new and shiny :-)
[14:54] Aleric Inglewood: If he follows the new and shiny last page now, he should be able to compile it on 64bit.
[14:54] Merov Linden: well, at least, Linux 64 builders have an advocate internally :)
[14:54] Techwolf Lupindo: Merov, for 64-bit, the only two options are standalond build or create a 32-bit chroot and can use normal prebuilts lib build.
[14:54] Fluf Fredriksson: Darn should of got here earlier .. am running 64bit emerald on Linux
[14:54] Boroondas Gupte: true. But once the dependencies are satisfied, building standalone isn't that much of an issue.
[14:55] Toki LittleBoots: Okay, there was nothing terribly scary in that wiki page. In fact, it was quite well written.
[14:55] Boroondas Gupte: :-)
[14:55] Techwolf Lupindo: I run 64-bit emerald. Gentoo linux here.
[14:55] Aleric Inglewood: Note that while doing this, I ran into a potential probem that I consider to be rather serious :/... If people install 32-bit precompiled stuff from LL (and they very well might!), then that comes with header files. Now, if you compile standalone you shouldn't use those headerfiles, but that DOES happen imho. So, the viewer is build against the wrong headerfiles in that case.
[14:56] Dzonatas Sol: It would be helpful to have a deb uploaded to the repos that can be used to grab the right dependencies for standalone
[14:56] Dzonatas Sol: just to resolve them
[14:57] Techwolf Lupindo: For Gentoo users, they can use my overlay and make it into two command lines. One for adding the overlay and one to build the client.
[14:57] Dzonatas Sol: could that overlay be included in the repos
[14:57] Fluf Fredriksson: sorry to back track, but can someone post the url for the wiki page you are talking about please?
[14:57] Aleric Inglewood: In 2.0 this no longer seems to be the case... but that is why tut.hpp isn't found unless you install it in /usr/local/include :/ ... I'd think it should find it if you run scripts/ tut, but it doesn't. Fixing FindTut.cmake to find would just add back libraries/include and start building against the unwanted library headers again :/
[14:57] Dzonatas Sol:
[14:58] Fluf Fredriksson: ty
[14:58] Techwolf Lupindo: Aleric, I think if LL_TEST=FALSE, FIndTut.cmake is not called.
[14:58] Aleric Inglewood: If anyone knows why, on standalone, the viewer insists on /usr/local/include/tut.h to exist, or fails to configure - but then goes on to include only <tut/tut.hpp>, please tell me.
[14:59] Merov Linden: well, thatnks for updating the Linux build instruction guys
[14:59] Boroondas Gupte: Btw., can we get LL_TESTS=TRUE fixed for standalone? Can't hurt to run tests, I guess.
[14:59] Dzonatas Sol: I'm still using this method and I'm not having any problem with a full 32bit prebuilt lib compile: #Step-by-Step_32bit_Chroot_Compile
[14:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Aleric, I'll look into it. What branch and version are you talking about?
[14:59] Aleric Inglewood: Techwolf: 1.4 of course ;) (although I keep an eye on 2.0 :/)
[14:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Boroondas, I just notice it was broken int eh lastest commits on 1.4. I plan on fixing that.
[15:01] Aleric Inglewood: Dzontatas: I don't have a problem either.. but it's a fact that standalone CAN be using the wrong header files.
[15:01] WolfPup Lowenhar: linux has a switch for turning off the tests but there is no easy way to do it in windows
[15:01] Merov Linden: k, it's 3pm an it looks like I've tons of things to do on TeamCity and 2.x truk commit
[15:01] Aleric Inglewood: I also got terribly confused by the fact that the build system downloads lots of libraries - but in the end doesn't use them.... doesn't even install them in the package :/
[15:01] Merov Linden: I'll see you guys Thursday, hopefully, we'll have a building Snowglobe 2.1 in trunk by then

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