Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.03.22

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Arawn Spitteler Ardy Lay
Bronson Blackadder Cummere Mayo Draconis Neurocam
Fancy Greeter Flip Idlemind Gooden Uggla
Kadah Coba Kaluura Boa Kelly Linden
Latif Khalifa Liisa Runo Pauline Darkfury
Qie Niangao Rex Cronon Simon Linden
Stickman TankMaster Finesmith Techwolf Lupindo
TheBlack Box Twisted Laws

Transcript

[11:58] Fancy Greeter: Andrew Linden has arrived!

[11:58] Ardy Lay: I see the scoreboard has arrived.

[11:58] Pauline Darkfury: lol

[11:58] Pauline Darkfury: I'm winning :p

[11:59] Bronson Blackadder: makes me want to add more scripts

[11:59] TheBlack Box: hover-text attachments ruin even the best avatars and makes the wearer appear noobish :)

[11:59] Draconis Neurocam: hello andrew

[11:59] Andrew Linden: Hi.

[12:00] Fancy Greeter: Simon Linden has arrived!

[12:00] TheBlack Box: hi

[12:00] Ardy Lay: Hi Andrew. I have some fun for you.

[12:00] Andrew Linden: lemme ping Simon to see if he is coming...

[12:00] Flip Idlemind: Yay, I have "the best avatar" in your opinion :D

[12:00] Simon Linden: pong

[12:00] Andrew Linden: Oh there he is.

[12:00] TheBlack Box: nah .. but even if you would ...

[12:01] Andrew Linden: Ok Ardy, lemme start with the news...

[12:01] TheBlack Box: yay .. more hover-texts ...

[12:01] Andrew Linden: We rolled a new main channel simulator today.

[12:01] Rex's greeter says: Hello Andrew, Techwolf, Simon, Pauline, Flip, Draconis, TheBlack, Ardy, Kaluura, Liisa, and Bronson.

[12:01] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[12:01] Pauline Darkfury: hiya

[12:01] TheBlack Box: hey

[12:01] Andrew Linden: I don't think it was from the RC's, but was just some exploit fixes.

[12:02] Andrew Linden: The RC's will be updated tomorrow.

[12:02] Andrew Linden: I think Kelly's work and some of mine will be added to the RC's

[12:02] Andrew Linden: a maint-server that has the "abandoned parcel" work (by Kelly Linden)

[12:02] Fancy Greeter: Kelly Linden has arrived!

[12:02] Pauline Darkfury: Would be kinda nice to get something just a little less vague than "Bug fixes and maintenance updates.", even if some of the details can only come after deployment (crashers & exploits)

[12:03] Andrew Linden: Alas. No more info is available about those fixes atm.

[12:04] Andrew Linden: The only thing I've got in the upcoming maint-server is some possible memory leak fixes.

[12:04] Pauline Darkfury: Question on the abandoned parcel stuff. Are you turning on auto-return on the abandoned parcels? Have you considered the issue where a coalesced object can't be rezzed if it has more than a certain number of scripts (1024?)?

[12:04] Fancy Greeter: Oskar Linden has arrived!

[12:05] Andrew Linden: Pauline, I believe that autoreturn will be enabled on abandoned parcels.

[12:05] Kelly Linden: auto-return will be disabled during the buy-back period, but enabled after when it is set for sale to everyone

[12:05] Andrew Linden: However one thing that was not done was to give preference to neighbors once the land does go up for sale.

[12:05] Kaluura Boa: If anybody rezzes an object with 1024 scripts in it, I say it's a good thing he/she can't do it again...

[12:05] Pauline Darkfury: Ahh, ok, as long as there's a grace period, or it could be a content loss issue for people who can't read warnings or push buttons while drunk

[12:05] Andrew Linden: oh, Kelly is here. Yeah he knows all the details.

[12:06] Kelly Linden: Yes, there is a 3 day grace period (though that is subject to change)

[12:06] Pauline Darkfury: It's not a single object with 1024 scripts, it could be 15,000 objects with 1024 scripts between them

[12:06] Andrew Linden: we don't recommend that you take 15k prims to inventory in one asset.

[12:06] Liisa Runo: i understood we cant rex more than 1000 prims nowdays

[12:06] Liisa Runo: rez*

[12:06] Techwolf Lupindo: did I read that right, abanded parcels go up for sale instead of remaning abanded after the grace period?

[12:06] Kelly Linden: During the grace period the parcel doesn't change much, and it is set for sale back to the previous own only for L$0

[12:06] Pauline Darkfury: yup, but the auto-returner doesn't respect that recommendation ;)

[12:07] Simon Linden: Our coalesced object rezzing really doesn't scale up to very large objects ... they become griefing tools just due to the total size

[12:07] Andrew Linden: hrm... that autoreturner will need to be modified.

[12:07] Fancy Greeter: Oskar Linden has arrived!

[12:07] Kelly Linden: At the end of the grace period the parcel options are reset (bans cleared, auto return on etc) and it is set for sale to anyone for L$1/meter

[12:07] Pauline Darkfury: At least I don't believe it does, don't see it often, but have seen folks gripe about not being able to rez returned stuff

[12:08] Andrew Linden: I'll make a note to check the auto-returner behavior Pauline.

[12:08] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks :)

[12:09] Andrew Linden: In other news... I'm going to be helping the mesh team 50% for the next several weeks.

[12:09] Andrew Linden: I updated the main wiki page for these Simulator User Group meetings...

[12:09] Andrew Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group

[12:10] Andrew Linden: I've added Kelly's Monday meeting to that page

[12:10] Andrew Linden: and it is also listed on the general calendar page

[12:10] Kelly Linden: yay

[12:10] Andrew Linden: I've reformatted the links to the transcripts archives. I'll try to add links to the script meeting transcripts.

[12:11] Andrew Linden: Ok that is all the news I've got. Simon, Kelly, or Oskar if you have any news go ahead.

[12:11] Andrew Linden: D'oh. I forgot to talk to Richard about animations again.

[12:11] Simon Linden: I don't have much ... I've been working on our testing systems and how to load up a region to emulate real usage

[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith: the tp point of 225/25/25 should be moved though, its just off this building so people fall in the sea

[12:12] Kelly Linden: I think that mostly covered my news. My monday meeting is now on the calendar and wiki as a part of this simulator user group. Thanks andrew.

[12:12] Cummere Mayo: considering how busy youve been andrew im sure we will all forgive you

[12:12] Techwolf Lupindo: Simon, thats easy. Load it up with Pion chickens. :-D

[12:12] Cummere Mayo: :)

[12:12] Simon Linden: Where did you get that from? I removed TP routing a few weeks ago

[12:12] Kadah Coba: Give out free L and send a notice to a freebie group with a LM; that'll load down a region good :P

[12:12] Simon Linden: Techwolf : yes, but Im'

[12:12] Cummere Mayo: or champion horses that works well too :P

[12:13] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, just set it adult, drop 100 of each breedable in, set the description to "free porn", enable it in search ;)

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: the link on the general http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups

[12:13] Simon Linden: but I'm not sure I want to work on optimizing the region-full-of-chickens use case

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: goes to Denby (225,25,25)

[12:13] Cummere Mayo: >.>

[12:13] Simon Linden: We should probably put that right in the center of the table

[12:13] Andrew Linden: chickens load the script engine. We're making some headless bots for benchmarking/testing avatar density and actions.

[12:14] Cummere Mayo: well strike the dripping chickens part

[12:14] Cummere Mayo: but the advertising free porn should work on getting you people lol

[12:14] TheBlack Box: if we got no further news for now .. i would like to ask about the plans for llCastRay ... and if we can expect that to be rolled out to main-gird anytime soon ...

[12:14] Andrew Linden: yes the table is open for general discussion

[12:15] Ardy Lay: Just hijack the infohub router and do a rolling restart. Instant angry mob.

[12:15] Andrew Linden: TheBlack. you need to talk to Falcon Linden. He wanted to get some residents to test llCastRay for performance exploits.

[12:15] Techwolf Lupindo: I would prefer headless chickens instead of headless bots.....;-)

[12:15] Andrew Linden: But that is in the mesh regions.

[12:15] Pauline Darkfury: Another question on abandonments. Will the new setup be quite predictable for when it goes from buy back to anyone?

[12:15] Ardy Lay: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6859

[12:15] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6859] llTeleportAgentHome on an agent not over your land shouldn't result in the _target_ getting the message

[12:15] TheBlack Box: llCastRay for projectiles is something i am interested in ... currently the weapon-makers i talked to seem to dislike llCastRay projectiles as long as particles dont get an upgrade

[12:15] Pauline Darkfury: i.e. if we see it go at 1200 today, will it be 1200 on Friday it opens for anyone, or similar?

[12:15] Kelly Linden: Pauline: it should be roughly 3 days from when it was released.

[12:15] Flip Idlemind: What's the status of whatever problem made it necessary to disable threaded rez?

[12:16] Kelly Linden: We only scan for parcels that need to convert every 5 minutes, so it could be off by a few minutes.

[12:16] TheBlack Box: so llCastRay is bound to mesh ? 2027 ?

[12:16] Pauline Darkfury: Ok, cool, that's close enough to give us a fighting chance if there's a parcel we'd really love to get

[12:16] Andrew Linden: TheBlack, you definitely want to talk to Falcon. Send him an IM direct about llCastRay. I'll be he'll get back to you.

[12:17] TheBlack Box: ok

[12:17] Arawn Spitteler: 72 hours +/- 5 min?

[12:17] Pauline Darkfury: Does this mean the end of auctions then? Or, if not, what will determine auction vs. sell to anyone for L$1/m

[12:17] Andrew Linden: Flip, the bug that caused threaded-rez to be disabled is properly fixed (and threaded-rez re-enabled) in the maint-server that we hope to get up in RC tomorrow.

[12:17] Andrew Linden: We're doing last minute QA on that project right now.

[12:18] Andrew Linden: Since it hasn't completed I'm not 100% sure it will make it in time for RC.

[12:18] Kelly Linden: Pauline I think they plan on manually handling the existing abandoned parcels, so that may lead to some auctions for a little bit, but I *think* this means an end to auctions of abandoned mainland.

[12:18] Kelly Linden: There will be more general announcements about this behavior change before the switch is flipped.

[12:19] Cummere Mayo: sounds good

[12:19] Pauline Darkfury: you realise that you're probably going to trigger a ton of land bot activity on land that's perceived to have higher than L$1 value?

[12:19] Kelly Linden: The behavior will not change when it first goes to RC.

[12:19] Andrew Linden: I would guess that most of the auctionable mainland will just go up for sale.

[12:19] Andrew Linden: It may be that Guy Linden will continue to process big abandoned parcels of land for auction.

[12:19] Draconis Neurocam: it will be good to breath some life into mainland

[12:19] Andrew Linden: Dunno his plans there.

[12:19] Arawn Spitteler: Why not just route to auction, rather than routing to resale?

[12:19] Rex Cronon: why won't give the chance of the neighbours to first buy the parcel?

[12:19] Cummere Mayo: big ones to auctions would still be good

[12:20] Kelly Linden: As currently specced they all go to sale, none to auction.

[12:20] Pauline Darkfury: would probably be a good thing if say 4096 and larger went for auction, maybe with a sanity check that the parcel isn't polka-dot with 16s cut out of it

[12:20] Andrew Linden: Kelly, when does the abandoned land work get enabled? If not on first RC arrival?

[12:20] Cummere Mayo: and even smaller ones that dont sell to a neighbor after a week going to auctiosn would be great

[12:20] Kelly Linden: Andrew: Guy gets the switch, it is up to him. I am not sure when he will enable it.

[12:20] Kadah Coba: What Rex said

[12:20] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, ultimately, giving pref to neighbours on say 1024 and less would make a lot of sense

[12:21] Andrew Linden: Kelly the switch is per-host right? Not per region?

[12:21] Arawn Spitteler: Dutch Auction?

[12:21] Kelly Linden: Andrew: correct.

[12:21] Fancy Greeter: Bambers Linden has arrived!

[12:21] Andrew Linden: Personally I like the idea of giving preferences to neighbors.

[12:21] Cummere Mayo: hello bambers

[12:21] Cummere Mayo: i do too

[12:22] Kelly Linden: I do too. But it is complicated both viewer and server side.

[12:22] Andrew Linden: However the initial work was pared down to the minimal necessary, I'm guessing.

[12:22] Cummere Mayo: theres one plot i kept missing out on cuase it never goes to me

[12:22] Kelly Linden: And yea, it was.

[12:22] Cummere Mayo: and since im not consierge support wouldnt let me scoup it when it was abandoned

[12:22] Cummere Mayo: *curses*

[12:22] Gooden Uggla: this is going to have abn interesting effect on the estates that are already having trouble renting land

[12:22] Pauline Darkfury: I take it the auto-handler is disable on estate land?

[12:22] Kelly Linden: Correct, estate land is not effected.

[12:23] Kelly Linden: abandoned parcels return to the estate owner on estate land.

[12:23] Gooden Uggla: yes, a large supply of cheap land certainly will effect the estates

[12:23] Kelly Linden: just as they do today.

[12:23] Gooden Uggla: just like linden homes effected the estates

[12:23] Pauline Darkfury: It works both ways. I'm a mainland landlady and see people both coming from estate for lower cost, and going to estate for greater control

[12:23] Kelly Linden: resale price and buy-back period are easily configurable if they need adjusting.

[12:24] Latif Khalifa: it should tweakable on the server: mark parcel internally as being for sale for other land owners in the sim, when you talk to the viewer check if the user is land owner on the same sim, if it is, lie to viewer that land is for sale just for them :)

[12:24] Cummere Mayo: i do think it should be raised to 1.5 per m^2

[12:24] Gooden Uggla: pauline, what effect did linden homes have on your business?

[12:24] Cummere Mayo: that would put it about what i see at estates

[12:24] Gooden Uggla: this is literally the same thing

[12:24] Pauline Darkfury: It does worry me slightly on the impact on mainland rentals, but since I undercut LL's tier price on 8192 and smaller, hopefully should be ok

[12:25] Pauline Darkfury: I entered the rental market after Linden Homes started. I'm a fairly new landowner

[12:25] Gooden Uggla: lol ok, withdrawn

[12:25] Ardy Lay: Andrew, should I paste again? Yet?

[12:25] Pauline Darkfury: I don't see Linden Homes as a big threat, tbh. I focus on 1024 and larger, and people soon outgrow 117 prims

[12:26] Andrew Linden: Ardy, I was just making a note about SVC-6859

[12:26] Pauline Darkfury: I can also offer people mainland with a relative lag guarantee on the regions where I own all of the non-Gov Linden land

[12:26] Gooden Uggla: i focus on 2048 to full regions, and i noticed linden homes taking my renters immediately

[12:26] Ardy Lay: OKay. It's being a problem

[12:26] Andrew Linden: I'll try to look into this week. It looks like it should be easy to fix.

[12:26] Simon Linden: LH is supposed to be the gateway drug for land ownership ... if you get into it at all, you'll soon outgrow that plot

[12:27] Latif Khalifa: "117 prims should be enough for everyone" :P oh wait

[12:27] Gooden Uggla: didn't work tho, simon

[12:27] Kelly Linden: Oh, I found and fixed SVC-6112. It is a viewer bug, I'll be trying to get it into viewer-development this week

[12:27] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6112

[#SVC-6112] URLs in Top Scripts is always 0.

[12:27] Qie Niangao: Gooden: but this won't be all that dramatically different from the current situation on Mainland, where there's already tons of insanely cheap land.

[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: Linden Homes do dilute the market, but there's room for them there. Personally, I'm quite happy having a max of 64 tenants per region (assuming the demand was high for 1024s)

[12:27] Draconis Neurocam: ooh thanks kelly

[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, there's already a ton of random L$1/m-ish mainland out there

[12:27] Gooden Uggla: i'nm just stating a concern, personally, anything that helps the cesspool that the mainland has become is welcome

[12:27] Pauline Darkfury: I can see people crying that paid L$10/m and higher, as it could kill their value a bit

[12:28] Latif Khalifa: Kelly, nice. Not that URL limit ever gets close to being reached

[12:28] Ardy Lay: Kelly, I could offer you a possibly-related issue.

[12:29] Gooden Uggla: pauline, the value of mainland died when they forced the "trail of jizz" to zindra, anything that helps fix it is a good thing...

[12:29] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I'm all for better handling of abandonments, tbh

[12:29] Bronson Blackadder: slippery slope

[12:30] Latif Khalifa: there are still whole sims abandoned

[12:30] Latif Khalifa: since the zindra move

[12:30] Pauline Darkfury: Next on the list would be re-joining the 16s

[12:30] Ardy Lay: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23393

[12:30] JIRA-helper: [#VWR-23393] Viewer reports script info for the wrong parcel, in some cases

[12:30] Pauline Darkfury: DOes the auto for sale thing have a minimum size (e.g 512)? It would be good if the horribly cut ad farms got manual review and joined, if possible, before going for sale?

[12:31] Kelly Linden: so now there has been requests for both minimum and maximum size. Right now there is not.

[12:31] Pauline Darkfury: I can see scammers jumping on 16s for sale for L$16, setting them for sale again at L$1000

[12:31] Andrew Linden: The abandoned land work only kicks in for *newly* abandoned land.

[12:31] Kelly Linden: If it becomes a problem then it may need to be revisited.

[12:31] Andrew Linden: The previously abandoned land will have to be manually processed.

[12:32] Pauline Darkfury: It's tough to define all of the corner cases where some manual review would be better, just getting them out there as they occur to me

[12:32] TheBlack Box: for those who are interested: Falcon says he expects llCastRay to arrive on main-grid within 6-8 weeks but further delays can occur

[12:32] Draconis Neurocam: wow

[12:33] Cummere Mayo has something she would like to bring up here....

[12:33] Liisa Runo: awesome

[12:33] Andrew Linden: go ahead Cummere

[12:33] Pauline Darkfury: does that mean Havok 2010, or whatever the new version is, is likely to land soon?

[12:33] Cummere Mayo: svc-6105 / VWR-25168

[12:33] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6105

[#SVC-6105] I keep receiving offline IM's twice

[12:33] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25168

[#VWR-25168] Allowing owners of private regions to ban griefers by IP from estate and groups without disclosure of alts

[12:33] Cummere Mayo: err 6205

[12:33] Cummere Mayo: sorry

[12:33] Andrew Linden: SVC-6205

[12:33] Cummere Mayo: multiple jiras are coming up for the request to ban by ip

[12:33] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6205

[#SVC-6205] Allow Ban by IP Address

[12:34] Liisa Runo: IP ban dont work.

[12:34] Cummere Mayo: personally i think its a BAD idea

[12:34] Liisa Runo: very bad idea

[12:34] Cummere Mayo: and thats what i keep saying

[12:34] Cummere Mayo: cuase it wont work

[12:34] Ardy Lay: I get a different address every time I restart my cable modem.

[12:34] Techwolf Lupindo: Temp ban by IP is good, perm ban by IP is bad.

[12:34] Cummere Mayo: but since theres now over a dozen jiras requesting it

[12:34] Pauline Darkfury: IP banning is frankly a monumentally bad idea. I think at least half of the people who support it don't have much idea about just how ineffective it would be, and how much colateral damage that would be hard to debug would be caused

[12:34] Cummere Mayo: it needs formally addressed

[12:34] Rex Cronon: crashed:(

[12:34] Gooden Uggla: if you see 16 meter extortion parcels, stand on them, open the about land box, and file an IR on the owner or group owner

[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith: what tech said...

[12:35] Cummere Mayo: what worries me is that supposedly someone named arch linden is helping spearhead this push

[12:35] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I could just about see value in a max of 24 hours ban for an IP

[12:35] Cummere Mayo: emphasizes the supposedly

[12:35] Bronson Blackadder: there is three people in my apartment complex that play SL

[12:35] Bronson Blackadder: I would hate to have my neighbor do some griefing thing and get banned and have me banned by proximity

[12:36] Andrew Linden: yeah, that opens a new mode of "griefing" your neighbors with bad behavior and collatoral damage

[12:36] Pauline Darkfury: The Orange cell phone network in the UK historically put the entire nation through just 8 IPs for 3G access to the Internet

[12:36] Cummere Mayo: thing is soemthing like 90% of all ips are dynamic now... griefer resets the modem and that feature is dead in the water

[12:36] Rex Cronon: if u use an internet cafe u r in big trouble

[12:36] Ardy Lay: There are places here where blocks of residences, 16 to a block, all use one IP address unles the resident has specifically requested otherwise.

[12:37] Pauline Darkfury: A friend get IP banned by LL on her cellphone in FL, USA, until the security folks reviewed it and realised it was a massively-shared IP

[12:37] Cummere Mayo: as i said im against ips bans whether ll does them or anyone else does them

[12:37] Cummere Mayo: but i think these jiras need addressed

[12:37] Gooden Uggla: i think i'd prefer that accounts have to tell LL their names before they can access the "advanced" part of the beginner's viewer

[12:37] Pauline Darkfury: LL have the info and tools to do IP bans relatively safely. The info needed can't be disclosed to estate or land owner level without compromising privacy.

[12:38] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll ask around and see if I can find someone to address those.

[12:38] Kadah Coba: Many eastern European ISPs NAT through only a handful of IPs

[12:38] Gooden Uggla: i still have no idea why an account should be allowed to be anonymous from the lab

[12:38] Rex Cronon: no. u need to put everybody to do some community work:)

[12:38] Cummere Mayo: gooden

[12:38] TheBlack Box: ip-address based banning together with server-side rendering will be the ultimate disaster in that area i guess

[12:38] Cummere Mayo: because honestly most games now are anonymous

[12:38] Cummere Mayo: even most paid ones

[12:38] Gooden Uggla: doesn't make it smart or efficient

[12:39] Cummere Mayo: gooden anyone can make up a name

[12:39] Arawn Spitteler: I know I can reset my name to Arch Lindan, easy enough, but don't know if there's an Arch Linden

[12:39] Gooden Uggla: paid ones have some form of billing info

[12:39] Pauline Darkfury: SL benefits from the free and easy signup, changing that would be a very bad thing, tbh. It's just a minority of people that abuse the facility

[12:39] Cummere Mayo: and get a throwaway credit card in that name

[12:39] Gooden Uggla: cummer... that's no9t a good reason

[12:39] Latif Khalifa: very very small minority

[12:39] Cummere Mayo: requiring id just doesnt work anyways

[12:39] Pauline Darkfury: Arch is one of the Concierge Lindens

[12:39] Cummere Mayo: too easy to trick aristotle

[12:39] Gooden Uggla: i'm just saying, ask fior a name

[12:40] Andrew Linden reads the double IM issue...

[12:40] Cummere Mayo: heck even LL's ip/hash ban doesnt work

[12:40] Gooden Uggla: not sure if you noticed, but bad behavior is on the rise

[12:41] Cummere Mayo: everyone i know affected by it only had to reset the modem to get around it. service bans dont really work. ip bans dont work

[12:41] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, the evil folks happily evade just about any limit/ban thrown at them, I only see enhanced banning in landowner control causing problems, not really solving the serious problems

[12:41] Cummere Mayo: actually gooden ive found the oposite

[12:41] Gooden Uggla: just because things (like estate bans still!) don't always work, doesn't mean they aren't effective to some degree

[12:41] Arawn Spitteler: G-Team might not be investing in basic courtesy.

[12:42] Cummere Mayo: ive had allot LESS griefers overall

[12:42] Gooden Uggla: we have less griefing, but much more random idiocy

[12:42] Pauline Darkfury: I don't see a great deal of griefing around, tbh

[12:42] Ardy Lay: We can have resident-resident debates any time.

[12:42] Ardy Lay: Can we use these meeting more effectively?

[12:42] Techwolf Lupindo munches on food.

[12:43] Gooden Uggla: pick a subject ardy

[12:43] Ardy Lay: I tried and got drowned out.

[12:43] Pauline Darkfury: Physics Other ny news there?

[12:43] Rex Cronon: if u were to spend some time in public sandboxs u would see some griefing?

[12:43] Rex Cronon: :)

[12:43] Andrew Linden: Well, I've got some opinions and ideas about IP bans but am not very interested in describing them here.

[12:43] Ardy Lay: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/LEAP-4

[12:43] Ardy Lay: Whee

[12:43] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I can find griefing if I want to see it, I just don't see it as a widespread thing very often

[12:44] Andrew Linden: I don't think outright IP bans work, but I believe there are some more clever responses that could be done.

[12:44] Ardy Lay: Huh? No helper reaction for LEAP-4?

[12:44] Andrew Linden: LEAP? I'm unfamiliar with that one...

[12:44] Rex Cronon: btw. there is something wrong with rausch. i tp there i crash. i tp out i crash:(

[12:44] Ardy Lay: Click it. ;-)

[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith: Business Unit: LEAP

LEAP-4

Script Info reporting on discontiguous parcels is not working as expected

[12:44] Gooden Uggla: ok ardy, you have our attention

[12:44] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, I think LL could implement some cleverness which could both do something useful to limit griefing but not have the colateral damage of simplistic IP bans

[12:44] Arawn Spitteler has a viewer issue with 2.6.0, but doesn't know how to phrase it as a Server Issue

[12:45] Arawn Spitteler: Invite the griefers to CrashMe, and get them gaming.

[12:45] Ardy Lay: THe last two JIRAs I mentioned have been batted back and forth between server and viewer coders now.

[12:45] Andrew Linden: Is that really a LEAP issue? Maybe it should be SVC?

[12:45] Simon Linden: That does look like an SVC problem

[12:46] Rex Cronon: crashme hasn't been around for a while

[12:46] Arawn Spitteler: What's LEAP?

[12:46] Kelly Linden: it is a viewer issue

[12:46] Kelly Linden: dunno why it would be in leap vs vwr or storm

[12:46] Andrew Linden: Dan Linden used to run CrashMe. He stopped for some reason, I forget what it was.

[12:46] Andrew Linden: Maybe it should be reopened, yes.

[12:46] Flip Idlemind: Probably all the crashing

[12:46] Ardy Lay: Dan stopped because somebody was banning people that crashed it.

[12:46] Kadah Coba: I think Dan got tired of fixing it from all the crashing

[12:46] Cummere Mayo: reopened and possibly sent to oz to see if he wnats to move it?

[12:47] Andrew Linden: Oh right.

[12:47] Arawn Spitteler: It's my fault, Andrew wanted a creative new crash mode, and sending griefer wannabes was my best approach.

[12:48] Andrew Linden: Kelly do you have any ideas as to what is happening in LEAP-4?

[12:48] Kelly Linden: yeah, I dunno what the visibility on that project is, but maestro looked into it. The server is sending the right data, and if you look at the LLSD directly it is all there.

[12:49] Kelly Linden: The viewer is just not handling it right and I don't actually know why.

[12:49] Ardy Lay: I was thinking that perhaps it was related to the viewer issue Kelly said he is fixing.

[12:49] Kelly Linden: Maestro has a comment to that effect in the LEAP-4 issue.

[12:49] Kelly Linden: nope, unrelated

[12:49] Kelly Linden: well. not directly related at least.

[12:50] Gooden Uggla: what does oz say about it?

[12:50] Latif Khalifa: related as in "viewer gets all the data it needs, just doesn't display it right" ;)

[12:50] Ardy Lay: Not both sharing a defective method or something like that?

[12:51] Kelly Linden: Latif. heh. we use straight caps for the leap-4 data and the viewer just isn't doing the right thing with it. For the top scripts we use the message system wrapper, and we were attempting to pull the url count out of the wrong block.

[12:51] Andrew Linden: so that was a typo in the unpacking code.

[12:51] Kelly Linden: exactly.

[12:52] Kelly Linden: the leap-4 stuff is gonna be more involved.

[12:52] Latif Khalifa: ah i thought resource limits was a cap too

[12:52] Kelly Linden: resource limits are. the top scripts isn't.

[12:53] Kelly Linden: clear as mud, I know.

[12:53] Latif Khalifa: hahaha

[12:53] Flip Idlemind: So. I rediscovered an old bug the other day, and I thought it might be nice to have it looked at some time before mesh comes out and the prim size limit gets raised to 64m

[12:53] Flip Idlemind: SVC-1443

[12:53] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1443

[#SVC-1443] Avatar attachments should always listen from the avatar's position and not from any object the avatar may be sitting on.

[12:54] Andrew Linden: I wonder if that could be fixed without breaking content.

[12:54] Pauline Darkfury: The sit distance is already 300m, isn't it, Flip?

[12:54] Andrew Linden: Anyone have a guess?

[12:54] Twisted Laws: break the spy market, maybe

[12:54] Liisa Runo: i guess fixing that would only fix broken content

[12:54] Kadah Coba: I can only see if fixing things

[12:54] Pauline Darkfury: I'd pose a different question, Andrew. What legitimate purpose is served by an attachment being able to listen up to 300m away?

[12:55] Kadah Coba: What purpose would anything have in expecting to have its listen at the root of the sit object?

[12:55] Andrew Linden: well, if it doesn't break a lot of content I might be willing to try it

[12:56] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, that's an equally good way of phrasing it, Kadah

[12:56] Latif Khalifa: there are many things to consider here with potential for breakahe

[12:56] Andrew Linden: I haven't broken a bunch of stuff in a while (at lest not on purpose)

[12:56] Flip Idlemind: It's really weird when my attachments can't hear me because they're too far away from me..even though they're on me o.O

[12:56] Gooden Uggla: pauline a local chat repeater for large meetings

[12:56] Gooden Uggla: but that's about it

[12:56] Kelly Linden: if the attachment is listening for chat from the vehicle, the change may mean that on some vehicles the attachment would no longer hear the chat.

[12:56] Kadah Coba: You're overdue then, Andrew, just fix this one blindly and assume all will be well x3

[12:57] Latif Khalifa: also llDialog has special behaviour where and how it listens

[12:57] Latif Khalifa: I'd not be changing this ;)

[12:57] Andrew Linden: Maybe I could do the work in another dev's shared screen and shift the blame.

[12:57] Latif Khalifa: hahaha

[12:57] Ardy Lay: Hehe

[12:57] Pauline Darkfury: lol

[12:57] Gooden Uggla: :)

[12:57] Gooden Uggla: go for it

[12:57] Simon Linden: I'll leave one open for you...

[12:57] Techwolf Lupindo grins

[12:57] Andrew Linden: so Simon, grant me access to your screen?

[12:57] Simon Linden: I think you already have it :)

[12:58] Rex Cronon: and if something borks there will be an uproar..

[12:58] Andrew Linden: hehe, you typed that too fast ;-)

[12:58] TheBlack Box: shifting the blame wont work .. all Lindens get blamed for any Linden's mistake either way ;)

[12:58] Gooden Uggla: hey simon, look at that girl walking by the window!

[12:58] Pauline Darkfury: The workarounds to fix any breakage are not terribly hard. Seeems to me that attachments not being able to hear the AV and people near the AV breaks more than them not being able to hear stuff around a distant prim

[12:58] Simon Linden: whoa, I didn't know I had a window here!

[12:58] Flip Idlemind: You guize can blame me instead if there's an angry mob

[12:58] Gooden Uggla: see? you have a window!

[12:59] Gooden Uggla: start a new linden account "Workaround Linden"

[12:59] Pauline Darkfury: It does make me wonder though, can an AV hear link messages inside the object they are sitting on?

[12:59] Gooden Uggla: blame it on him

[13:00] Andrew Linden: I'm sure someone here has tested that Pauline.

[13:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group

[13:00] Liisa Runo: cant

[13:00] Andrew Linden: Anybody know?

[13:00] Gooden Uggla: no pauline

[13:00] Gooden Uggla: we tested that in our games

[13:00] Arawn Spitteler: I thiink that Linked messages t Avies has been asked for

[13:01] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, thought it would be plugged, just never tested it myself, since the AV is linked to the object while sitting

[13:01] Gooden Uggla: you have toi have the listener inside the contents, or sniff all the channels

[13:01] Rex Cronon: it can't be true. that would mean all your attachments would hear the messages inside the object u r sitting on

[13:01] Liisa Runo: would be too usefull

[13:02] Gooden Uggla nods at liisa

[13:02] Liisa Runo: can we have it?

[13:02] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.

[13:02] Twisted Laws: bye, thanks

[13:02] Ardy Lay: Thanks for being here

[13:02] Gooden Uggla: thanks andrew

[13:02] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, Andrew, Simon, Kelly, have a good one :)

[13:02] Kadah Coba: Have fun Andrew

[13:02] Latif Khalifa: thank you for your time Andew, Kelly , Simon :)

[13:02] Andrew Linden: My list of action items looks something like this:

[13:02] Rex Cronon: i don't think u want your attachments to hear what is going on inside the object u r sitting on.

[13:02] TankMaster Finesmith: tc andrew, simon, kelly

[13:02] Andrew Linden: (1) Talk to Richard about animations

[13:02] Arawn Spitteler: We haven't scripts inside our avatars, to listen to such messages,and avatars aren't really agents

[13:03] Andrew Linden: (2) Look into SVC-6859 for Ardy

[13:03] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6859

[#SVC-6859] llTeleportAgentHome on an agent not over your land shouldn't result in the _target_ getting the message

[13:03] Latif Khalifa: oh we're on week 4 about anims ;)

[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving

[13:03] Flip Idlemind: Some objects could be passing around sensitive information with linked messages, probably should have our attachments able to blurt it out

[13:03] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, it's just the AV that's linked to the seat, not their objects

[13:03] Arawn Spitteler: Attachments have their own link numbers, so linked messages would be hard to model

[13:03] Flip Idlemind: should not*

[13:03] Andrew Linden: (3) Ask around for someone to respond to request for IP bans

[13:03] Kaluura Boa: Hop! Poof! Food!

[13:03] Andrew Linden: (4) Ask Dan about CrashMe

[13:03] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, you don't want someone to sit on a vendor and get sooper-secret info ;)

[13:03] Andrew Linden: (5) Check to see if SVC-1443 is an easy fix

[13:03] Gooden Uggla: chain kelly to his chair util till mono goes live in aditi??

[13:03] Andrew Linden: (6) fin

[13:04] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming

[13:04] Kadah Coba has CrashMe Resident

[13:04] Qie Niangao: thanks Andrew, Kelly, Simon. Have fun everybody. :)

[13:04] Simon Linden: Bye everyone

[13:04] TheBlack Box: tc

[13:04] Andrew Linden: oh yeah (6) look into auto returner behavior to see if it is building too-big assets

[13:04] Rex Cronon: i g2g too. tc everybody

[13:04] Andrew Linden: (that one was on the other piece of paper)

[13:04] Flip Idlemind: Bai guize

[13:05] Ardy Lay: Andrew, define "too-big assets"?

[13:05] Flip Idlemind: Stuff you can't re-rez?

[13:05] Ardy Lay: Size of the file or maybe prim and script count?

[13:05] Pauline Darkfury: stuff that the system won't let you rez again

[13:05] Ardy Lay: Define that then please.

[13:05] Ardy Lay: Is it in WIKI?

[13:05] Pauline Darkfury: More than 1024 scripts in a coalesced object is one case, I believe

[13:06] Andrew Linden: Arty, too big to be rezzed

[13:06] Andrew Linden: > 1000 scripts for example

[13:06] Pauline Darkfury: I've heard that particular gripe on half-sim returns in the Hippo group & Concierge, but not sure if it still happens

[13:06] Gooden Uggla: happens all the time

[13:06] Arawn Spitteler: A way to sort coalesced assets before rezzing mihgt be good

[13:06] Gooden Uggla: there's a fix for it, but you have to be nice and be patient

[13:07] Ardy Lay: Break-out script, yeah

[13:07] Kadah Coba: I have a lot of shit thats too-big-to-rez from returns

[13:07] Ardy Lay: Does "too big" change if you own the land?

[13:07] Gooden Uggla: you have to very politely email CG and wait for a reply

[13:07] Gooden Uggla: do not "bug" him, simply make 1 polite request

[13:08] Latif Khalifa: Kadah, they have a script that can break up too big objects in your inventory



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