Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.09.23

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Eddi Decosta Fancy Detector
Flip Idlemind Jessica Lyon Kadah Coba
Latif Khalifa Leonel Iceghost Liisa Runo
lonetorus Habilis Male Ember Mastorian Kingsford
Morgaine Dinova Oskar Linden Pauline Darkfury
Rex Cronon Sahkolihaa Contepomi Squirrel Wood
Stickman Ingmann TankMaster Teichmann Techwolf Lupindo


[15:59] Oskar Linden: I crashed your meeting Andrew

[15:59] Oskar Linden: not literally

[15:59] Jessica Lyon: eye spy an Andrew

[15:59] Andrew Linden: excellent

[15:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hey Andrew.

[15:59] Squirrel Wood: more Linden OSSMness :)

[16:00] Jessica Lyon: So.. you guys broke EVERYTHING!

[16:00] Jessica Lyon: kidding! >.>

[16:00] Andrew Linden: Simon won't be attending today. I think he left early to have fun or something.

[16:00] Jessica Lyon: just some things >.<

[16:00] Oskar Linden: that's so simon

[16:00] Squirrel Wood: Are you even allowed to have such a thing as FUN ?

[16:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group

[16:00] Flip Idlemind: Fun? Whats more fun than this meeting?

[16:01] Jessica Lyon whispers: oh god so many IM's :(

[16:01] Andrew Linden: looking at chat history... it appears that his fun involves alcohol

[16:01] Andrew Linden: which may be more fun that this meeting

[16:01] Jessica Lyon: I'll take Simons approach to this meeting. kthx bai! lol

[16:01] lonetorus Habilis: awww

[16:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Andrew and transient Simon :P

[16:02] Andrew Linden: ok news...

[16:02] Liisa Runo: i knew it! speed of light is not the ultimate speed limit ^^

[16:02] lonetorus Habilis: does alcohol and virtual worlds mix? i mean it still loosens up ppls inhibitions, but does that come across in text chat?

[16:03] Andrew Linden: I have to stop and think about what I've been doing... it has been a hectic day/week.

[16:03] Squirrel Wood: start at the beginning :)

[16:03] Morgaine Dinova: Our mental model of reality is never very accurate. Alcohol just makes it a little less so.

[16:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Rex

[16:04] Rex Cronon: hi morgaine:)

[16:04] Rex Cronon: hi everybody:)

[16:04] Jessica Lyon: mew

[16:04] lonetorus Habilis: so if we say that as a car analogy; there is no difference between speeding and speeding a lot?

[16:04] Morgaine Dinova: Oooh, lovely!

[16:05] Andrew Linden: well... I've been fixing some bugs (SVC-7303 and SVC-7305)

[16:05] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-7303] borked LeTigre install, server placing anything rezzed with velocity at <0,0,0>

[16:05] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-7305] the PRIM_PHYSICS switch for llSetPrimitiveParams and associated functions is broken

[16:05] Rex Cronon: hi jessica:)

[16:05] Andrew Linden: and also looking into some performance problems when regions restart

[16:05] Jessica Lyon: and buses >.<

[16:05] Andrew Linden: and doing some merge stuff in preparation for updates next week

[16:05] Andrew Linden: that about sums it up

[16:06] Andrew Linden: oh yeah, working on getting some debug logs in the interest list code

[16:06] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!

[16:06] Andrew Linden: in anticipation for some work on it soon

[16:06] Andrew Linden: That's about it.

[16:07] Morgaine Dinova: Just out of curiosity, do sims have consoles server-side, showing you at a glance all the current operating state?

[16:07] Andrew Linden: no Morgaine, they do not

[16:07] Andrew Linden: however, some of the state can be queried

[16:07] Morgaine Dinova: kk

[16:08] Andrew Linden: via some http get's (much like caps (capabilities))

[16:08] Morgaine Dinova: Would be very interesting to look at the state in a condensed form.

[16:08] Andrew Linden: and those queries are only visible on the internal network

[16:08] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, I didn't mean for us, but to help you know what's going on.

[16:09] Andrew Linden: well... under some circumstances is is possible to stop the simulator in a GDB (gnu debugger)

[16:09] Morgaine Dinova: Haha, ouch :P

[16:09] Andrew Linden: but there is some skill in examining the state

[16:09] Andrew Linden: and it isn't very easy

[16:09] Pauline Darkfury: Well, there's a desire to expose some more info to EMs via SimConsole, some of that type of stuff could be useful

[16:10] Andrew Linden: right, I'd like to do that

[16:10] Andrew Linden: I think I took some notes several weeks ago for things people would like to see there

[16:10] Andrew Linden: I'll have to hunt those down... dunno how I'll find the time to implement

[16:11] Pauline Darkfury: Anything and everything that isn't going to be a security risk, and could tell us something useful, or help us diagnose issues/health

[16:11] Pauline Darkfury: If it's totally cryptic and only makes sense with a copy of the server source, you're welcome to keep that bit to yourself ;)

[16:11] Leonel Iceghost: Andrew you need a librarian for your notes

[16:12] Andrew Linden: well.. maybe we should make a jira just so we can get all the ideas on one place

[16:13] Andrew Linden: also... there are a few things I'd like to do while I was around that code... such as making sure the time stats actually add up to 100%

[16:13] Flip Idlemind: I just got back from AFK-ness, scrolling up and reading about interest list code, did anyone make a note to look into how HUDs are handled in that?

[16:13] Andrew Linden: is there a jira for that? I wonder...

[16:13] Pauline Darkfury: Best check with CERN, you might need to make time add up to 101% now ;)

[16:13] Latif Khalifa: lol

[16:13] Andrew Linden: I did make a note Flip. I was thinking about that earlier today too

[16:14] Andrew Linden: but I didn't get to it

[16:14] Pauline Darkfury: HUDs and your own attachments should probably always be top of the list, I'd guess?

[16:14] Flip Idlemind: Im happy as long as it's on someone's to-think-about list

[16:15] Andrew Linden: well... huds yes

[16:15] Techwolf Lupindo: How about an instrest list of "Give me everthing!"? :-)

[16:15] Andrew Linden: regular attachments could sort by camera distance

[16:15] Andrew Linden: well... since it is so easy to go to close up view maybe it isn't worth that special case

[16:16] Techwolf Lupindo: Sit next to me, that chair is allways empty.

[16:16] Andrew Linden: what was that mumble about double-click TP?

[16:16] Jessica Lyon: Tech.. your a wolf.. ima cat.. nuff said

[16:16] TankMaster Teichmann: not gonna table dance, jess? :D

[16:16] Jessica Lyon: lol

[16:16] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, would new protocol changes you mention involve the viewer telling sim what it wants?

[16:17] Andrew Linden: Techwolf, we've kicked that idea around about "give me everything"... we might actually get to it.

[16:17] Latif Khalifa: So say a text client can tell it "no object updates thanks"

[16:17] Andrew Linden: sorta... the idea being to provide the cachable objects (static, non-changing objects) as a sort of big asset download

[16:18] Andrew Linden: right, we've kicked that idea around too... subscription based interestlist

[16:18] Techwolf Lupindo: That could be put in a cap with the legisty UDP as a fallback.

[16:18] Latif Khalifa: hmm, that is done with task inventory download and is dog slow

[16:18] Squirrel Wood: double click TP.. does not work in all sims. Some just tell me I can't tp any closer despite the tp point being all across the sim.

[16:18] Andrew Linden: viewer has to subscribe (ask for) the types of info in which is is interested

[16:18] Latif Khalifa: Task inventory is downloded as an asset, and it's one of the slowest bits of the protocol

[16:19] Latif Khalifa: I really wish object inv was done as a CAP

[16:19] Andrew Linden: yeah would be a concern for the interest list data streeam too:

[16:19] Jessica Lyon: Squirrely, bridge gets around that. It uses llmovetotarget but you have to enable it in prefs

[16:19] Kadah Coba: A "give me a list of everything on this(my) parcel" would be very useful.

[16:19] Andrew Linden: how to make the asset download quickly

[16:19] Andrew Linden: or make it so that partial versions of it can be rendered early

[16:20] Jessica Lyon: Oh sorry, that's in Firestorm or phoenix, not LL viewer

[16:20] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, object inv is painfully slow for what appears to be a fairly tiny volume of data

[16:20] Squirrel Wood: I spy tehKellz!

[16:20] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, on the protocol level that gets downloaded as a text file which is then parsed. And xfer protocol is painfulyl slow on higher latency links

[16:21] Andrew Linden: Latif, when you say "task inventory" are you talking about items in object contents?

[16:21] Latif Khalifa: I'm afraid turning sim object updates into an asset downlaod will just slow it down

[16:21] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, yes, object inventory

[16:21] Andrew Linden: we'd have to test and compare to see if providing data in the form of larger assets helps or not

[16:21] Latif Khalifa: try putting 50 items in an object and see how slow it updates

[16:22] Andrew Linden: hrm... ok that is news to me. I wonder how new that is

[16:22] Latif Khalifa: it's ancient

[16:22] Latif Khalifa: and dog slow

[16:22] Pauline Darkfury: Mmm, my "painfully slow" is on a 150-200ms app level round trip (when the sim is behaving itself), between 6 and 10 Mbit local link, that's zero loss normally

[16:23] Techwolf Lupindo: Try downloading your inventory from a fresh install and you will see how painfully slow it is.

[16:23] Andrew Linden: hrm... I wonder how that object contents cap gets routed

[16:23] Latif Khalifa: there is object contents cap?

[16:23] Techwolf Lupindo: Its not a cap.

[16:23] Andrew Linden: oh ok. well I don't know much about it

[16:23] Latif Khalifa: it's an asset download last time i checked

[16:23] Techwolf Lupindo: Cleint side, its "inventory responders" on each object that the client calls to get objects contents.

[16:24] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, I nuked my inv cache after a sim ate a no-copy, hoping that it was just hidden (it wasn't, the sim or asset hamsters ate it), took forever to load it all again

[16:24] TankMaster Teichmann: ive got some boxes with 1,250 objects in them, it tables about 2-3 min to load

[16:24] Latif Khalifa: when a client request object invetnory an asset download commences, and you basically get a text file wich is then parsed into object inventory list

[16:24] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, but what's worse is that it constantly seems to re-load the entire prim's inventory, after a trivial change

[16:25] Andrew Linden: Pauline, you using old 1.23 protocol or the new Avatar Inventory Service (AIS -- is that what we're still calling it?)

[16:25] Stickman Ingmann: Long time ago, you only used to be able to put one item into an object at a time. Now, you can drag an entire list of items into it. But it handles it one by one, and sends a client update for each item it puts in, making the inventory jump around. Sometimes the packets arrive out of order, making items appear and disappear.

[16:25] TankMaster Teichmann: which is anoying when working with them... delete one item and have to wait another 203 min for the list to update

[16:25] Pauline Darkfury: Makes working with 100+ things very slow

[16:25] Techwolf Lupindo: Oh gads, I forgot abouyt that part, it literlly download a text file into tmp file space, then it parces it.

[16:25] TankMaster Teichmann: AIS2 afaik, andrew

[16:25] Jessica Lyon: Pauline appears to be on phoe.. which doesn't use AIS2, it uses the old school method

[16:25] Pauline Darkfury: pre-AIS on this viewer, although I'm pretty sure that LL 3.0 took rather an age to download my inv as well, tbh

[16:25] Latif Khalifa: Yes, that's because of "whole inventory as a text file", so each time you add an item it downloads the whole object invetnory

[16:26] Latif Khalifa: I'm talking about object contents, unrelated to AIS2

[16:26] Pauline Darkfury: Yup, 2 different issues

[16:26] TankMaster Teichmann: yeah, would be nice if it could download a diff of some sort, but that mey not be possible

[16:27] Jessica Lyon: apologies, i'm inundated with IM's.. but trying to keep up here.

[16:27] Flip Idlemind: inundated? Don't make up words

[16:27] Latif Khalifa: I only mentioned it because Andrew suggested object updates might be changed to asset download. It's a cause for concern because the same thing is done for object contents which is very slow.

[16:28] Andrew Linden: Ok. I'll keep that in mind.

[16:28] Techwolf Lupindo: So if you have a feature of an object instpect that counts the contents of each prim, up to 250 invenotry repsonders are called for, then 250 text files are downloaded, then are parsed and then the responder is fired.

[16:28] Techwolf Lupindo: That methoid failes half the time.

[16:28] Latif Khalifa: yep

[16:28] Jessica Lyon:

[16:28] Andrew Linden: If we try out larger assets for cachable object data we'll have to test to make sure its faster.

[16:28] Pauline Darkfury: Ahhh yeah, doing a full script reset of a 1300-ish prim build is "fun"

[16:28] Flip Idlemind: dictionary? Don't make up words

[16:28] Jessica Lyon: o.o

[16:29] Techwolf Lupindo: Oh, did you know that souce code is the doc? And that at one time said that regine object cache is saved into a file, but a different filename is read? That was fix last year by the way.

[16:29] Latif Khalifa: Andrew, try routing through higher latency link too, like typical european user is at 200ms away and those asset downloads get very slow especialy using xfer which waits for ack for every packet sent

[16:30] Andrew Linden: yeah, we won't be using xfer

[16:30] Andrew Linden: xfer is a file-transport built on top of our UDP system

[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[16:30] Flip Idlemind: Half over? Or is it half...not over?

[16:31] Rex Cronon: parsing xml:(

[16:31] Andrew Linden: we are in the middle

[16:32] Latif Khalifa: My gut feeling is that optimizing the order of object updates as we have now would do much better than attempting to serialize it into some sort of asset download

[16:32] Techwolf Lupindo: Converting from xfer to a UDP msg packet would be load better, and then using cap would be win for object inventory.

[16:32] Andrew Linden: yes that may be true

[16:33] Latif Khalifa: Techwolf, yeah a cap for object inventory would do wonders

[16:33] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, that would seem to make a lot of sense

[16:33] Andrew Linden: on the other hand...

[16:33] eddi: sorry hi there :)

[16:33] Andrew Linden: at the moment the simulator builds a custom set of packets per avatar

[16:34] Andrew Linden: some of the data therein is the same for each avatar

[16:34] Andrew Linden: but not necessarily

[16:34] Andrew Linden: so gains may be had by coalescing avatars to share data streams when possible

[16:34] Andrew Linden: so we only have to build once for several

[16:35] Andrew Linden: sorting the objects correctly would help yes, but it makes it harder to share datastreams... unless you do some "sorty by location" approximation when the avatar's share an approximate location

[16:35] Eddi Decosta: hey OSkar!!

[16:36] Pauline Darkfury: Hmmmm. That could potentially be quite a big win for parcels with landing points

[16:36] Andrew Linden: if the data really is static (not changing much) then breaking it up into bigger chunks and transmitting them down in the background may still be a win

[16:36] Pauline Darkfury: Just as long as it always gives someone too much, rather than too little, when some AVs need more than others (draw dist, etc)

[16:37] Andrew Linden: especially for more distant data

[16:37] Techwolf Lupindo: Hmm...could split the distance into round number chunks that can be shared by nearby avatars.

[16:37] Andrew Linden: and as long as the chunks aren't each too big

[16:37] Andrew Linden: right Techwolf

[16:37] Rex Cronon: if somebody has a 1024m draw distance i don't want their interest list

[16:37] Eddi Decosta: sorry not loading yet

[16:38] Pauline Darkfury: Yeah, not suggesting that everyone gets the person who tries to draw half of Sansera and claims mainland is always uber-laggy ;)

[16:38] Rex Cronon: 4k? even better. haha

[16:38] TankMaster Teichmann: :D

[16:39] Mastorian Kingsford: your isp must like you

[16:39] TankMaster Teichmann: my ISP doesnt care, i just cant go to mainland with that drawdistance

[16:39] TankMaster Teichmann: the viewer times out processing the netowrk requests from all the regions at once

[16:42] Rex Cronon: btw. when r we going to get llDelObj(key uuid) ?

[16:42] Pauline Darkfury: Um, major danger with that

[16:43] Andrew Linden: llDelObj()? is that in SVC-6181?

[16:43] JIRA-helper:

[#SVC-6181] Meta-Issue: List of Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns

[16:43] Leonel Iceghost: hmm I wonder, what's wrong with having two sims calculating your position when you are 20m near sim border.. and the viewer only taking care of the one you are in.. (it would requiere two full conections with both sims)

[16:43] Liisa Runo: we get it same time we get SCR-179

[16:43] JIRA-helper:

[#SCR-179] New feature: llManipulateLindenFlora()

[16:43] Rex Cronon: at least for objects i own

[16:43] Rex Cronon: or llReturnObj

[16:43] Liisa Runo: SCR-19

[16:43] JIRA-helper:

[#SCR-19] Script function to return objects

[16:44] Pauline Darkfury: Here, wear this freebie Rex's home gets deleted. It needs a perm request attached to a housebrick

[16:44] Rex Cronon: i preffer return

[16:44] Andrew Linden: In the Admin menu there is an Object->Delete option...

[16:44] Andrew Linden: that option will delete your object without taking it to inventory trash

[16:44] Rex Cronon: i don't have a home. so it doesn't apply:)

[16:45] Pauline Darkfury: llReturnObject would be a very valuable one for land managers

[16:45] Leonel Iceghost: yeah, for group owned objects and llReturn would be awersome

[16:45] Latif Khalifa: Pauline, it would also be a minefield for abuse ;)

[16:45] Rex Cronon: sometimes i want to return my own objects but can't. they need a script to fall through the floor

[16:45] Pauline Darkfury: It needs some sort of careful safety switch for the abuse, but is very much needed

[16:45] Leonel Iceghost: I would like to return any object taking much script time for example

[16:46] Andrew Linden: the malicious freebie that returns all of your stuff... would that be a worry?

[16:46] Liisa Runo: same safety switch thatn llAddToBanList

[16:46] Pauline Darkfury: Yes, it needs a safety switch

[16:46] Leonel Iceghost: maybe it needs permissions

[16:46] Leonel Iceghost: PERMISSION_RETURN

[16:46] Latif Khalifa: Leonel, that would achieve exactly nothing

[16:46] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Why not just allow people to view their own objects in the object list under about land?

[16:46] Rex Cronon: if i have a objects that enters in a noscript parcel. i want other object to return i

[16:46] Pauline Darkfury: perms request, and some way for it to work safely when deeded to group

[16:46] Latif Khalifa: Koli, you can already do that

[16:46] Leonel Iceghost: Latif it does, if you ban the person at the same time :P

[16:46] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: o_O

[16:47] Liisa Runo: we dont want some silly viewer function for return, we want trye LSL that is 1000000x better than any client poop

[16:47] Leonel Iceghost: ++Liisa

[16:47] Latif Khalifa: Leonel, sim performance is almost uaffacted by scripts these days, you don't really achieve anything by killing of scripts

[16:47] Rex Cronon: rigth liisa. a lsl function for return.

[16:47] Stickman Ingmann: Would be nice, yes.

[16:48] Andrew Linden: well, what would be the best safety for llReturnObject() ?

[16:48] Rex Cronon: like llReturnObj(key uuid)

[16:48] Pauline Darkfury: a specific perms request, just need an equivalent way to do that when group deeded

[16:48] Rex Cronon: u can add a checkbox in build menu, and only those that have it on can be returned

[16:49] Leonel Iceghost: request permissions for it would be safe, like to link

[16:49] Andrew Linden: permissions are a hassle, and some grief victims might click them without reading them

[16:49] Leonel Iceghost: we can already delete own things by linking and deleting

[16:50] Pauline Darkfury: If people blindly click YES! to a huge yellow warning popup (PERMISSION_DEBIT style), they kinda deserve all they get, tbh

[16:50] Rex Cronon: .

[16:50] Andrew Linden: oh... the script links to the object, then deletes itsel?

[16:50] Squirrel Wood: hmmmmm the sim is not doing too well

[16:50] Jessica Lyon: or they're new..

[16:50] Leonel Iceghost: what about a check in the parcel "Allow return to group owned objects"

[16:50] Liisa Runo: test test, did i crash? or just not displaying my chat?

[16:50] Latif Khalifa: and if you gave to agree to return, why not just return from the viewer lol

[16:50] Mastorian Kingsford: omg reminds me when we lost our homes and items to damge bombs and nukes lol

[16:50] Rex Cronon: what i type is very slow to show up:(

[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: Or, to put it another way, if the big yellow popup isn't sufficient, what would be?

[16:51] Andrew Linden: yeah, I'm getting long chat lag

[16:51] Rex Cronon: something weird

[16:51] Flip Idlemind: New doesn't mean can't read (or...shouldn't o.O)

[16:51] Pauline Darkfury: No, there really needs to be a per-object thing for the group case, tbh. e.g. I certainly don't want all deeded objects on my rentals being able to return anything

[16:51] Rex Cronon: no more permissions

[16:51] Leonel Iceghost: Pauline, both then

[16:52] Leonel Iceghost: a checkbox in the region window, and a permission request

[16:52] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, I could buy into both, although not quite sure what per-parcel gives if you're already doing per-object

[16:52] Andrew Linden: this reminds me of the idea to make parcels scriptable

[16:53] Andrew Linden: (if we had such a feature)

[16:53] Andrew Linden: er... land == parcel

[16:53] Andrew Linden: perhaps the call could only work on a parcel script

[16:53] Pauline Darkfury: mmmm, interesting idea!

[16:53] Liisa Runo: (dont know if my message got trough, dont see it, ill resend) safety check for llReturn can be that same as with llAddToBanlist, test the ability of task owner. And if someone accidentally rez shady object and got wrong stuff returned, not that serious, nothing is lost. Will learn to not rez shady objects again.

[16:54] Kadah Coba: Perhaps limit it to regional EMs only?

[16:54] Rex Cronon: andrew. i think somebody or someone is messing with this sim:(

[16:54] Pauline Darkfury: No, llReturnObject needs a safer check than llAddToBanlist, it's more damaging than the ban list

[16:54] Techwolf Lupindo: wow...that was instresting. The regine behive just like some sims I went to and what folks have been complaining about sence mesh rolled out.

[16:54] Stickman Ingmann: You got debug on in this region? Logs might be fun to look at.

[16:54] Andrew Linden: let me look at the logs...

[16:55] Latif Khalifa: Liisa, if my full sim got returned that would be extremely bad, and how in the world am I supposed to tell what a shady object is. No thanks.

[16:55] Pauline Darkfury: Limit to EMs isn't good, one of the bigger cases where it's needed is mainland rentals

[16:55] Leonel Iceghost: this would be very nice to have some more control in the sandboxes.. so if the owner is there don't return.. but if he is gone return in one hour

[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[16:56] Liisa Runo: anyway, i dont have strong feeling about the safety check, as long as i can do it somehow

[16:56] Latif Khalifa: It's not the time-warp ting, that shows in the stats as sim having td 0.01, now stats show ok

[16:56] Leonel Iceghost: it wasn't showing ok five min ago

[16:57] Rex Cronon: the physics fps goes from 36 to 45

[16:57] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, there was a big spike. I didn't watch all of it, but looked like phys FPS was one of the bigger parts of the spike

[16:58] Liisa Runo: (and shady object is any random object you got from stranger. i can think of lot worse things that shady objects can do than to return stuff. Must never rez shady objects, of if really must, maybe in some empty island)

[16:58] Andrew Linden: well I'm not getting any interesting clues in the logs yet

[16:58] Andrew Linden: and the lag appears to have vanished

[16:59] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, seems ok now

[16:59] Andrew Linden: debug logs are off by default

[16:59] Pauline Darkfury: So, before the end, did you remember to email Patch (I think it was) about encroachment return?

[16:59] Liisa Runo: during the lag spike, net time was 23ms

[16:59] Andrew Linden: No Pauline. I was planning on doing it today and forgot

[16:59] Andrew Linden: thanks for the reminder

[17:00] Pauline Darkfury: Np, ans thanks :)

[17:00] Pauline Darkfury: *and

[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[17:01] Male Ember: hello... can i join u..?

[17:01] Andrew Linden: there was a bug where animation perms could live forever on an asset... anyone know if that was fixed?

[17:01] Rex Cronon: hello

[17:01] Andrew Linden: er... animation permissions

[17:01] Liisa Runo: not a bug, expected behavior

[17:02] Rex Cronon: i think kelly said that it was fixed/

[17:02] Rex Cronon: ?

[17:02] Andrew Linden: Yes Male Ember, but we're almost done here (the hour is over)

[17:02] Jessica Lyon: Andrew that's been around for ever.

[17:02] Techwolf Lupindo: Liisa, that expected behiviour tuned in a SEC bug. :-(

[17:02] Jessica Lyon: iirc you guys tried to fix it last year or so.. and broke things grid wide, rolled it back

[17:02] Liisa Runo: expected behavior that can cause trouble, but is fixed by having a toggle in the client "ban anim perms from this agent"

[17:02] Techwolf Lupindo: in=into

[17:02] Male Ember: ok Andrew...

[17:02] Jessica Lyon: over a year ago..

[17:02] Andrew Linden: yeah it was an old bug... I just remembered it while thinking about various problems with scripted permissions

[17:03] Andrew Linden: and I couldn't remember if it was fixed yet or not

[17:03] Jessica Lyon: you guys attempted to fix it

[17:03] Jessica Lyon: but had to roll it back.. it broke to much content

[17:03] Jessica Lyon: script errors on chairs everywhere, vehicles etc

[17:03] Andrew Linden: ok

[17:03] Latif Khalifa: yeah, it's not a bug and needs no fixing

[17:03] Jessica Lyon: would still be nice to fix though! Put an end to avatar trashers

[17:04] Male Ember: Bye people nice to meeted u.... --;--@

[17:04] Rex Cronon: it is a bug that needs fixing:)

[17:04] Rex Cronon: bye

[17:04] Techwolf Lupindo: Just need to revolked upon "take" into invetory.

[17:04] Jessica Lyon: what tech said

[17:04] Liisa Runo: that will ruin valid content too

[17:04] Latif Khalifa: If you put how marginaly seldom it's abused, vs. how much legit content it breaks, it's not a bug

[17:04] Jessica Lyon: revoke on take to inventory.. shoudnl't break content

[17:04] Latif Khalifa: it does

[17:05] Jessica Lyon: use cases?

[17:05] Andrew Linden: ok, well I was pondering some way to browse existing scripted perms in a UI and the ability to set/remove them.

[17:05] Squirrel Wood: Hmm. I want to be able to revoke permissions on any object that I might have given some that is out there in SL... but there is no way.

[17:05] Pauline Darkfury: yeah, other perms are zapped by take/rez

[17:05] Jessica Lyon: Squirrely, there are some viewers that let you do that. tpv's

[17:05] Latif Khalifa: sim bugs permitting

[17:05] Squirrel Wood: third party viewers are not the solution to that :p

[17:05] Liisa Runo: only way to prevent the griefing with this is to add ability to see who's objects are animating you and adding a ban button to ban specific agent from animating anymore

[17:05] Jessica Lyon: agreed

[17:06] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming

[17:06] Andrew Linden: I've got to depart.

[17:06] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you, Andrew.

[17:06] TankMaster Teichmann: have a great weekend everyone

[17:06] Andrew Linden: Have a nice weekend.

[17:06] Pauline Darkfury: Lack of ability to audit the important perms is still an issue, particularly not being able to audit PERMS_DEBIT

[17:06] Squirrel Wood: Have a great weekend Andrew :)

[17:06] Jessica Lyon: Thanks Andrew and Oskar.. and Simon.. outthere somewhere

[17:06] Rex Cronon: tc andrew

[17:06] Pauline Darkfury: Take care, Andrew, have a good one :)

[17:06] Oskar Linden: :-)

[17:06] Liisa Runo: thanks everybody

[17:06] Rex Cronon: tc oskar

[17:06] Pauline Darkfury: Thanks, MLPskar ;)


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