Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.04.24
|Prev 2012.04.20||Next 2012.04.27|
List of Speakers
|Andrew Linden||Chieron Tenk||Elisha Richez|
|Fancy Detector||Flip Idlemind||Ima Mechanique|
|Jonathan Yap||Kallista Destiny||Kelly Linden|
|Kitto Flora||Liisa Runo||Motor Loon|
|Nalates Urriah||Qie Niangao||Rex Cronon|
|Sahkolihaa Contepomi||Simon Linden||TankMaster Finesmith|
|TheBlack Box||Vincent Nacon||Yuzuru Jewell|
[12:03] Andrew Linden: cool, we have a gambling table today
[12:03] Andrew Linden: deal me in
[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell: Sorry, Yap..
[12:03] Jonathan Yap: ?
[12:03] Flip Idlemind: Thanks to my LSL Preprocessor I only have to change one line to switch from sensors + viewer chat to llGetAgentList
[12:03] Flip Idlemind: Yay!
[12:03] Simon Linden: nice
[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell: I pushed you.
[12:04] Andrew Linden: News... I've been working on an interestlist bug in the pathfinding code... caused by some minor cleanup I attempted
[12:04] Andrew Linden: but I'
[12:04] Andrew Linden: I've fixed that bug
[12:04] Flip Idlemind: Coolio
[12:04] Andrew Linden: and the good news is that I did a little optimization along the way
[12:04] Andrew Linden: we used to only do 2D culling
[12:04] Vincent Nacon: on what?
[12:05] TheBlack Box: i played with pathfinding ... very fun stuff ... was the bug you fixed about llPersue not working well on stationary targets ?
[12:05] Andrew Linden: so that if objects were far above or below we would still send you updates, but I put in some Z-dependency
[12:05] Andrew Linden: so we'll see how that works
[12:05] TheBlack Box: ah kk
[12:05] Andrew Linden: No TheBlack, I didn't fix that bug, but maybe Falcon has a fix for it. Dunno.
[12:05] Andrew Linden: We should get another pathfinding update deployed this week.
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Also, the bug about the HUD attachments not getting updates when you moved your camera far away from your avatar... that bug is fixed.
[12:06] Flip Idlemind: AKA SVC-7792 ?
[12:06] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7792
[#SVC-7792] HUD Attachments Receive Infrequent Updates when Camera is Zoomed Out
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Kelly fixed it in a maintenance project that should get out soon.
[12:06] Kallista Destiny: did SVC-7845 get fixed hopefully?
[12:06] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7845
[#SVC-7845] Group notices are not sent to users from 12.04.13.253827 RC
[12:06] TheBlack Box: very cool stuff ... i use it for some simulated evolution experiments ... but the test-sims are pretty slow i think ... i need more juice :)
[12:06] Andrew Linden: Yeah, that one Flip.
[12:06] Flip Idlemind: Woooo!
[12:07] Flip Idlemind: I haven't tested pathfinding extensively, but a couple times, an object I had called llPursue on, ran away from me .()
[12:07] Simon Linden: That fix should roll out tomorrow, Kallista
[12:07] Kallista Destiny: llPrusued() Lol
[12:07] Andrew Linden: I'm *think* kelly had a fix for the group notices. Yeah.
[12:08] Kallista Destiny: It's not mentioned in the deply list is why I asked
[12:08] TheBlack Box: any idea when PRIM_SLICE ( https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-15 ) will roll out grid-wide
[12:08] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-15] Add flag parameter [vector slice] to llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_TYPE flags PRIM_TYPE_BOX, PRIM_TYPE_CYLINDER, and PRIM_TYPE_PRISM
[12:08] Andrew Linden: Also, we were doing interestlist culling based on your avatar position, rather than your camera position
[12:08] Andrew Linden: although we had code that could follow the camera instead
[12:08] Andrew Linden: so I turned that on (in the pathfinding project) so we'll see how that changes things too
[12:09] Flip Idlemind: Yay for the interest list getting some attention :D
[12:09] Vincent Nacon whispers: but is that optional, Andrew?
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Anyway, I thought I would mention those bug fixes since they've probably been bugging you all for a while.
[12:09] Vincent Nacon: ahh stupid whisper key
[12:09] Andrew Linden: Vincent, it isn't optional on a per-viewer basis
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: then that's gonna be a problem for some people
[12:10] Vincent Nacon: mostly photographers
[12:10] Andrew Linden: however it is possible to disable the "cull by camera position instead of avatar" on a per-host basis
[12:10] Fancy Detector: Kelly Linden has arrived!
[12:11] Flip Idlemind: It makes more sense this way. The list of what you can see should be based on the position from which you actually see
[12:11] Andrew Linden: that is, we have a config file that allows us to disable the new behavior and go back to the old way if necessary
[12:11] Simon Linden: Why would that be a problem for photographers? I would guess they would want more detail based on where their camera is
[12:11] Rex Cronon whispers: greetings
[12:11] Andrew Linden: yeah, I don't understand the photographer problem.
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: yeah and some angling they may try
[12:11] Vincent Nacon: some times they don't shoot themselves
[12:12] Andrew Linden: No, I don't believe it. The pathfinding server-side culling should just be more correct now.
[12:12] Vincent Nacon whispers: wait what?
[12:12] Andrew Linden: No matte where they are looking, the data sent to them should be more correct.
[12:12] Vincent Nacon stabs the whisper key...
[12:13] Andrew Linden: That's all the news that I've got.
[12:13] Vincent Nacon: maybe i'm confused.. you're culling based on character (pathfinding object) view?
[12:13] Simon Linden: I can talk about this mornings server update....
[12:14] Simon Linden: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-04-23/m-p/1500935#M5092
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: nice prim slice in
[12:14] TheBlack Box: yes !!
[12:14] Simon Linden: The main channel was updated with new code in the backend for inventory management
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: now you can stop asking about it
[12:14] TheBlack Box: any idea when PRIM_SLICE will be available grid-wide ?
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:14] Vincent Nacon: oy
[12:15] Flip Idlemind: Next week, one would hope
[12:15] Kelly Linden: TheBlack Box: with luck as early as next Tuesday, though it could be longer.
[12:15] Andrew Linden: No Vincent. I'm culling based on your avatar's "camera", which is the center and field-of-view of your client.
[12:15] TheBlack Box: thanks Kelly :) the sooner the better
[12:15] Simon Linden: Tomorrow Magnum will be updated with a bug fix for that group notice problem, but otherwise has the new goodies PRIM_SLICE and llGetRegionAgents()
[12:15] Vincent Nacon: ah ok... then it's still can be a problem for some people
[12:15] Rex Cronon: tbb, does prim_slice cuts a prim like a cake?
[12:16] Simon Linden: Keep your virtual appendages crossed and that may get onto the full grid next week
[12:16] TheBlack Box: PRIM_SLICE and llGetRegionAgents() are already on magnum
[12:16] Vincent Nacon: best to make that optional, maybe just leave it in debug setting
[12:16] Simon Linden: Finally, the fly height limit was raised to 5km this morning on the whole grid
[12:16] Andrew Linden: Vincent, perhaps you could elaborate on how that would cause a problem?
[12:16] Jonathan Yap: So, no more flight feathers?
[12:16] Simon Linden: Right, they shouldn't be needed
[12:16] Flip Idlemind: Out of curiosity, and I understand if you can't tell me, what was changed that broke group notices
[12:17] Simon Linden: ... and if anyone finds a flight assist that sends you into orbit, I'd love to hear about it
[12:17] Kallista Destiny: OK, it wasnt mentioned in the notice...
[12:17] Vincent Nacon: I can't really explain people's force of habit nor their picky-ness choice of viewing.
[12:18] Simon Linden: Flip - it was related to some other work related to handling very large groups and notices. The sequence of fetching members and sending the notices was re-worked as the old code would sometimes hurt performance pretty badly
[12:18] TheBlack Box: Rex: PRIM_SLICE is what shuold really be called path-cut on box, cylinder and prism ... and what is called path-cut now should actually be called profile-cut :)
[12:18] Andrew Linden: So this is a theoretical problem Vincent? based on statistical data? (each change will always bother *someone* ?)
[12:19] Rex Cronon: i am asking because this page doesn't really explain what prim_slice is used for: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PRIM_SLICE
[12:19] Vincent Nacon: no statistical data, but it's a very good hunch
[12:19] TheBlack Box: Rex: in the build menu on newer viewers ... it is called "Slice" ... but it cuts the path ... and "path-cut" cuts the profile
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: just go ahead cull that way as default but at least make it optional in debug setting if it's not that many people gonna be annoyed by it
[12:20] Rex Cronon: tanks tbb:)
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: but if it's more than enough, you'
[12:20] Vincent Nacon: you'll know for sure ;)
[12:20] Rex Cronon: thanks*
[12:21] TheBlack Box: np
[12:21] Jonathan Yap: was SVC-7853 on purpose or by accident?
[12:21] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7853
[#SVC-7853] Newly created notecards dont auto open in the viewer on 12.04.12.253726, BlueSteel or Le Tigre regions
[12:21] Vincent Nacon: total accident, yup
[12:21] Kallista Destiny: Accident, see above
[12:21] Rex Cronon: that wiki page is kind of useless
[12:21] Kitto Flora: Andrew, what do you know of the Havok memory leak? (SVC-7749)
[12:21] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7749
[#SVC-7749] Rez of vehicle gets message "Unable to create item '<object name>' that has caused problems on this region. Other vehicles are forced non-phys on enter.
[12:22] Andrew Linden: Kitto, this is the first I've heard of it.
[12:22] Simon Linden: I haven't heard of that one, Jonathan, and am honestly confused why the server would change that behavior
[12:22] Kitto Flora: Wow.
[12:22] Simon Linden: Opening the notecard seems like something that would be driven by the viewer
[12:22] Qie Niangao: could the notecard thing be Inventory API related?
[12:23] Kitto Flora: Maestro never mentioned it? I'd thought Andrew would hear about any physics problems.
[12:23] Vincent Nacon: I don't see how that's related to any form of memories leak...
[12:23] Simon Linden: It definitely could be, Qie -- if it's on this region now, that would point to the new version
[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith: items not opening when recieved has occurend int he past with server updates
[12:24] Simon Linden: yeah, that's on the full grid now
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: you're late, you're only getting one chip, Motor
[12:24] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:24] Motor Loon: damn
[12:25] Vincent Nacon: you too kelly
[12:26] Simon Linden: I pointed a developer who worked on the inventory code to SVC-7853, fwiw
[12:26] Flip Idlemind: So, pathfinding...I went to one of the pathfinding regions, and made a hollow cube like this. But I was unable to actually stand in the center of it like this. Intentional?
[12:26] Kallista Destiny: ARGHHHHHHH the bling, Puts on sunglasses
[12:26] Flip Idlemind: (I didn't test that extensively either, could have just been a 1 time thing)
[12:27] Simon Linden: Was the region running slow, Flip?
[12:27] Andrew Linden: Kallista, did you make the hollow cube part of the navmesh?
[12:27] Andrew Linden: or was it just a hollow cube?
[12:27] Flip Idlemind: Not that I noticed, but it was really empty except for me and a couple prims I'd rezzed
[12:28] Andrew Linden: er... I meant "Flip"
[12:28] Qie Niangao: (and not Convex Hull physics shape, presumably)
[12:28] Simon Linden: ok- it was a shot in the dark, as it will revert to simpler physics shapes when things get very slow
[12:28] Kallista Destiny: Lols
[12:28] Andrew Linden: That is not expected behavior, so maybe a bug.
[12:28] Andrew Linden: Oh right, some concave shapes might get boxified during very low physics performance.
[12:28] Flip Idlemind: Does "making something part of the navmesh" require being on the pathfinding viewer? Because I wasn't, so probably not
[12:29] Motor Loon: is that something new Simon?
[12:29] Simon Linden: No Motor, that was added a few years ago
[12:29] Andrew Linden: Yes Flip, you have to have some new UI to set an object "walkable" (included in navmesh calculation).
[12:29] Simon Linden: ... sometime around the Havok 4 change
[12:29] Motor Loon: ok, just never noticed that - must under extreme circumstances
[12:30] Andrew Linden: Yes Motor, it kicks in at around 15fps (if I recall correctly).
[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over
[12:30] Motor Loon: ok
[12:30] Andrew Linden: but only if the physics engine is the source of the crippling lag
[12:30] Flip Idlemind: And like I said I didn't test it again, so I could be talking about an issue that's not an issue
[12:30] Flip Idlemind: But good that it's not expected behavior
[12:31] Andrew Linden: Which reminds me... I haven't heard anything about the "temp on rez bullets get stuck on rez" problem in combat regions in a long time.
[12:31] Andrew Linden: So I guess I can assume that it really is fixed?
[12:31] Kallista Destiny: Yes andrew, that is indeed tfixed, and thank you very much
[12:32] Andrew Linden: ok cool
[12:32] Kallista Destiny would kiss andrew but ...
[12:33] Kallista Destiny: We had 30 odd people in Sardar a couple of weeks ago, the region was slow bot not bogged down, and there were no shoals of arrows being released late
[12:33] Simon Linden: great!
[12:33] Qie Niangao: So yesterday, I was riding a keyframed motion "vehicle" into a no-object-entry parcel, and when I stood up, it just disappeared, not returned to Lost&Found. I can't seem to replicate that, but I'm wondering if this just happens sometimes or if it's something to watch (was on a Le Tigre sim, fwiw)
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: just pucker up, will ya?
[12:34] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:35] Elisha Richez: Qie, if a vehical crosses a sim border of which has "no object entry" turned on it will delete after you stand up.
[12:35] Andrew Linden: Yeah, but shouldn't it get returned to inventory?
[12:35] Simon Linden: Qie - I believe that should have been returned and shown up in Lost and Found. Was it copyable?
[12:35] Qie Niangao: delete, not get returned? really? (this wasn't a sim border, although the motion *started* in another sim)
[12:35] Qie Niangao: yes, it was full perm
[12:35] Elisha Richez: they've been deleting for me too
[12:35] Vincent Nacon: unless it was temp
[12:36] Elisha Richez: but thats in goguen/cordova
[12:36] Andrew Linden: There may be a difference when crossing the border into a no-entry parcel
[12:37] Qie Niangao: ClicK, do you know a jira about it, by any chance?
[12:37] Andrew Linden: however I'd expect it to happen as soon as you cross, rather than wait for you to get off the vehicle.
[12:37] Elisha Richez: i have not checked for one yet :/
[12:37] Simon Linden: Vehicles get some weird bypass of the checks
[12:37] Simon Linden: You can drive them to places you couldn't push a regular object, so then there's a special check as you stand up
[12:38] Qie Niangao: Yes, and *usually* they've gone to my Lost&Found then
[12:38] Vincent Nacon: .... yeah we should work on vehicle API right after pathfinding project.
[12:39] Qie Niangao: Thanks. I'll see if it can replicate in any comprehensible pattern. If so, I'll make a jira.
[12:39] Simon Linden: The behavior rules are unfortunately complex as the restriction is "no entry" as opposed to being on the parcel - stuff that's there when "no entry" is turned on are grandfathered and stay in the parcel
[12:39] Andrew Linden: Falcon might be ready to work on a new vehicle API after pathfinding. I know he wants to do it.
[12:39] Elisha Richez: a friend of mine made a script before that rerezzed his vehical after exiting the vehical once crossed object no entry borderline.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: what I meant was....
[12:40] Andrew Linden: But he's also been lining up a bunch of other projects. I wonder which one will float to the top.
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: maybe put it on backburner till we get around to it?
[12:40] Vincent Nacon: or ...well hmm
[12:40] TheBlack Box: would be great if problems around vehicles with multiple passengers crossing sim borders would get fixed somewhen .. that is and always has been a major pita
[12:41] Vincent Nacon: aye
[12:41] Rex Cronon: u drop passangers at sim border, and pick them up on the other side
[12:41] Motor Loon nods... I've tried crossing borders with 17 avatars on my sailboat... didn't go too well
[12:41] TheBlack Box: :)
[12:41] Kitto Flora: Whats the problem with multiple riders on one vehicle, crossing border?
[12:42] Rex Cronon: after the crossing u might not be sitting
[12:42] TheBlack Box: usually everyone crashes
[12:42] Elisha Richez: or they get voided
[12:42] Kitto Flora: Ah - thatsjust sim overlaod
[12:42] Simon Linden: well, the basic problem is there is way too much leaving one region and entering the other ... it's like everyone trying to TP in at exactly the same time
[12:42] Rex Cronon: only 2 people in a car shouldn't overload a whole sim
[12:43] Motor Loon: neither should 10
[12:43] Simon Linden: If you look at the drops in frame rate on that performance meeter when someone arrives, just multiply that by the number of riders
[12:43] Simon Linden: ... and add the vehicle too
[12:43] TheBlack Box: it is a tough problem no doubt
[12:43] Kitto Flora: Take of all their script and bling - it works fine :)
[12:43] Elisha Richez: yea simon...lots of load especially if they are all wearing bling like kellz
[12:43] Elisha Richez: :P
[12:44] Motor Loon: Kelly alone can cause a sim to come to a halt
[12:44] Rex Cronon: not really. it needs somebody that is meticulous and pays attention to details:)
[12:44] Simon Linden: Finally there's the problem of re-assembling the vehicle and riders ... if something has gone missing, it doesn't recover well
[12:44] Motor Loon: well, thats the problem aint it... must be a solution for that
[12:44] Simon Linden: The bling isn't bad, except for your eyes. It's scripts that are the worst
[12:45] TheBlack Box: yeah ... a tough problem for sure ... but also would be a great feature if it worked well ...
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: quick... someone ban Black Box
[12:45] Kitto Flora: Av script limts. Where are they?
[12:45] Rex Cronon: can't u say that all passangers will have their scripts turned off?
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: err... I mean Simon
[12:45] Vincent Nacon: misread the name
[12:46] Simon Linden: I think there's new code where you can't ban the landowner
[12:46] Jonathan Yap: scripts that are turned off still have to be moved between regions, having no scripts is much better
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: oh be quiet you
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: :P
[12:46] Vincent Nacon: I'm the dealer here!
[12:47] Rex Cronon: running scripts also need to save state, so if u turn them off it takes less memory and time to transffer them to the next sim
[12:47] Vincent Nacon: wondering how much improvement there can be made with particle
[12:47] Motor Loon: You're a crappy dealer.... I didn't even get any playing cards
[12:48] Kitto Flora: Well - you can script your vehicle to check the script load of an Av when they sit, and unseat them if their load is 'too high'
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: we're playing with invisible cards
[12:48] Vincent Nacon: and you lost
[12:48] Qie Niangao: Kitto: or refuse to cross a sim border until they unload some scripts.
[12:48] Motor Loon: in that case... no, I'm sure I have a royal flush
[12:48] Vincent Nacon takes your one and only chip
[12:48] Simon Linden: I looked into the idea of a special case for scripts that didn't need to save state, and it turns out there wasn't much of an advantage for region crossings or TPs
[12:49] Simon Linden: There's enough overhead in loading and starting up the bytecode that it's not worth it
[12:49] Motor Loon: hm
[12:49] Qie Niangao: now if only we could turn off teleporting for script-heavy agents.
[12:50] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Or ... just bring in those script limits for avatars.
[12:50] Kitto Flora: llSetRegion(SCRIPT_LIMIT, <number>);
[12:50] Kitto Flora: If Av exceeds limit, TP denied
[12:50] Simon Linden: well, you could apply a little social pressure by making something follow script-heavy agents around
[12:50] Rex Cronon: than say: all passangers in a vehicles must take off all scripted attachments, only the driver allowed with attachments
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: yeah, Kitto's got good idea there than Koli
[12:51] Qie Niangao: heh, Simon, I think that's an AR waiting to happen
[12:51] Andrew Linden: An idea which has been mentioned here many times is to pre-load the receiving region with the script data when the crosser gets close to the boundary
[12:51] Jonathan Yap: Pathing objects can follow you around
[12:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Simon - the FN sandbox (we only have one now) will actually warn and send people home who are detected to be using up to 12MiB of script memory.
[12:51] Kitto Flora: Simon - we did nagging on Octoberville - it worked somewhat
[12:51] Vincent Nacon: actually, it wouldn't need to be LSL function, just put it in estate control panel
[12:51] Liisa Runo: i want a way to move objects to far away distances in the future. After LL ruin all the old border behavior.
[12:52] TheBlack Box: <- "This person is using way too many scripts and therfor messing up YOUR SL experience."
[12:52] TheBlack Box: :))
[12:52] Andrew Linden: I think one of the LL developers was seriously speculating on how pre-load of crossing data might be done, as part of the region crossing overhaul
[12:52] Simon Linden: It's a tough problem, because then finding and removing the scripts isn't easy. I hate all the resizers I find in clothing
[12:52] Andrew Linden: but I don't know the current state of those plans
[12:52] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: You should look at hair that have scripts in every prim. Oh boy. >_>
[12:52] Simon Linden: We should see the region-crossing RC code back next week, fwiw. In the long run, that'll apply to objects too
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: we could use a "remove all scripts" option inthe viewer that would also work on no mod objects
[12:53] Vincent Nacon: err bad idea Tank
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Vincent Nacon has 0 scripts using 0 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Motor Loon has 12 scripts using 12 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Simon Linden has 53 scripts using 36 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Flip Idlemind has 42 scripts using 534 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Ima Mechanique has 10 scripts using 12 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Yuzuru Jewell has 0 scripts using 0 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Sahkolihaa Contepomi has 5 scripts using 93 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: TankMaster Finesmith has 78 scripts using 65 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Kelly Linden has 19 scripts using 56 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Andrew Linden has 0 scripts using 0 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Kallista Destiny has 57 scripts using 64 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Nalates Urriah has 11 scripts using 42 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Jonathan Yap has 12 scripts using 13 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: TheBlack Box has 70 scripts using 44 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Chieron Tenk has 57 scripts using 93 uSecs
[12:53] Av Script Checker 0.5: Liisa Runo has 16 scripts using 142 uSecs
[12:53] Chieron Tenk: definitely bad.
[12:53] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: -.-
[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith: then you could remove allt he scripts from those baldy scripted resizes / color changers
[12:53] Rex Cronon: don't forget shoes
[12:54] Kallista Destiny: YES!!!
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Actually, I was thinking that was a good idea -- as long as it removed ALL scripts.
[12:54] Rex Cronon: gee. wall of text passing through?
[12:54] Kitto Flora: Flip is bad
[12:54] Vincent Nacon: as much I would like to favor that idea but it's still abuse-able in some other cases
[12:54] Liisa Runo: i dont take orders from cript checkers
[12:54] Liisa Runo: script*
[12:54] Andrew Linden: Removing selected scripts might be a way to hack certain script systems that expect other scripts to be present.
[12:54] Kallista Destiny: OMG I have probably l$2000 in hair that I canlt use because each and every prim has a scrit
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: It would be all or none
[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
[12:55] Andrew Linden: but removing ALL of them produces an empty object that can't otherwise be changed (I'm assuming no-mod perms)
[12:55] Qie Niangao: and it's no-mod hair, Kallista?
[12:55] Nalates Urriah: Kalli, are they all no mod?
[12:55] Jonathan Yap: There is already code to stop/start /recompile all scripts within a selection, I suppose it could be modified to delete them too (but I think that might be something of a support nightmare for creators)
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: exactly
[12:55] Kitto Flora: Theres a lot of tarshy producst sold in SL, and alot of dumb customers buying them.
[12:55] Rex Cronon: removing scripts from no-mode objects is not a viable solution. will never be
[12:55] Kallista Destiny: Yes
[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith: i wasnt looking for removering some scripts, jsut all
[12:56] Andrew Linden: really Rex, why is that? What scenarios would break?
[12:56] Kallista Destiny: They are not trashy, qua trashy, just ill scripted
[12:56] Kitto Flora rates that as trashy
[12:56] Kallista Destiny: actually nice hair
[12:56] Chieron Tenk: there is still lacking awareness of how bad memory overuse actually can be.. the old resizers/recolorers are still not dead because of that
[12:56] Qie Niangao rates no-mod as trashy by definition
[12:56] Rex Cronon: there r scripts that have security checks
[12:56] Liisa Runo: just need to put a sign on freshly installed viewer's login screen "never buy anything with nomod prims"
[12:56] TankMaster Finesmith: ive seen some hair with 2 scripts in each prim, one for size and one for color :P
[12:57] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Ah...
[12:57] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Demos for scripts.
[12:57] Simon Linden: right, you can have good objects with too many scripts, like a HUD I use
[12:57] Rex Cronon: like vendors, they pay certain parties
[12:57] Kitto Flora: And they all listen to chat on 0?
[12:57] Kallista Destiny: Mystitool comes to mind
[12:57] Andrew Linden: Hrm... ok so a demo with an llDie() on a timer could be foiled into sticking around.
[12:57] Rex Cronon: if the wrong scripts is removed or turned off some people might not get paied
[12:57] Rex Cronon: paid*
[12:58] Chieron Tenk: andrew, sometimes the permissions are produced to be noperms with an inventory items like a script, removing that would also add a permission, i guess?
[12:58] Qie Niangao: well, if *all* scripts are turned off, it's just bricked. nobody gets paid at all.
[12:58] Rex Cronon: right. demos too
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Rex, but we were talking about removing ALL scripts. So either none or all, but not a partial removal.
[12:58] Andrew Linden: Yes Chieron, however we could bake the pre-removal final perms into the object and then remove the scripts.
[12:59] TheBlack Box: well ... removing all scripts would actually have the same effect as rezzing the thing in a no-script region ...
[12:59] Chieron Tenk: k
[12:59] Rex Cronon: if u remove all scripts u might just as well delete the object
[12:59] Rex Cronon: an vehicle with no scripts would be useless
[12:59] Andrew Linden: But foiling a demo that deletes itself... that is one scenario that would break.
[12:59] Qie Niangao: yes, Rex, that's why people wouldn't do that with such objects.
[12:59] Andrew Linden: That is, a demo that did NOT rely on script behavior.
[12:59] Kallista Destiny: No Rex, yu resize it how you want it, set the color, then remove the scripts
[12:59] Chieron Tenk: we could also leave the scripts be for the time being, but add some flag that prevents loading them (and also makes the object noperm)
[12:59] Motor Loon: Creators just need to learn to put in options to descript their products
[12:59] Kitto Flora: Umm - if you 'unpack' the object then all its scripts end up in your Inv, even if the object is no-mod.
[13:00] Kallista Destiny: good devices have the remove option,
[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
[13:00] Rex Cronon: kallista. how r u going to drive a no-mode vehicle with no scripts in it:)
[13:00] Simon Linden: It doesn't sound good to me to allow modifications on a no-mod object ... it just seems like a bad can of worms
[13:00] Motor Loon: agree Simon
[13:00] Kitto Flora: Simon - you can so mod a no-mod object
[13:00] Qie Niangao: right: I think we're trying to save old stuff that is now crap because we don't script that way anymore. It may be pretty, but it's still crap.
[13:01] Simon Linden: It's pretty crap
[13:01] Liisa Runo: it is bad can of worms, just need to get more clever creators and consumers
[13:01] Kallista Destiny: There are very lovely hair/clothing/shoes that canlt be used becasue of having excessive scripts
[13:01] Motor Loon: Kinda like old cars in RL eh.... they often pollute more....
[13:01] Vincent Nacon: let's not worry about the "removing script" as scripter should have wrote in an option to kill its own script
[13:02] Jonathan Yap: Thank you everyone
[13:02] Kallista Destiny: I refuse to wear 500+ scripts becasue the maker is not cleaver/competent . and guss what you canlt count the scripts until you've bought it.
[13:02] Andrew Linden: I guess another scenario that might upset some content creators is that the "scriptless" object still shows up created by them, so it is a way for the object owner to deviate from the intended "experience" of the content
[13:03] Andrew Linden: that is, the creator loses some control over how their content is used/preceived
[13:03] Kallista Destiny: anyway thank All for a very interesting meeting.
[13:03] Kitto Flora: LL should apply a script-tax to objects?
[13:03] Andrew Linden: mmmm... taxes
[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving
[13:03] Qie Niangao: hehehe
[13:03] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh boy, I can just hear the screams for that.
[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: script equevelnt cost :P
[13:03] Kallista Destiny draws her dagger and goes hunting for Koli
[13:03] Rex Cronon: i think long ago a tax was put in place and small revolution started:)
[13:04] TheBlack Box: script-costs have been on the table and shelved again if i remember corrently
[13:04] Kitto Flora: sky-box tax?
[13:04] Andrew Linden: I can foresee the motto of the mob: "Born Free but Taxed to Death"
[13:04] Qie Niangao: You're good at this motto thing, Andrew. :p
[13:04] TankMaster Finesmith: thx for your time, guys
[13:04] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Simon & Andrew.
[13:04] Andrew Linden: thanks for coming everyone
[13:05] Ima Mechanique: thanks for having us :-)
[13:05] Chieron Tenk: tc everyone
[13:05] Kallista Destiny: You think that Adult content opened a can of worms?
[13:05] TheBlack Box: thanks for the office hour and all ! cu around
[13:05] Qie Niangao: Thanks Lindens, all. Have fun!
[13:05] Simon Linden: Bye everyone - thanks for the good conversation
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: naa the can has been opened long before anyway
[13:05] Nalates Urriah: thx
[13:05] Kallista Destiny: lol script taxes.... OMG *looks for a red flag
[13:05] Vincent Nacon: they just served it on pretty plate for them
[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell: See yo
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