Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2012.06.08

From Second Life Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Simulator_User_Group

Prev 2012.06.05 Next 2012.06.12

List of Speakers

Andrew Linden AnnMarie Otoole Ardy Lay
Baker Linden Draconis Neurocam DrFran Babcock
Jonathan Yap Kelly Linden Londen Adored
Moundsa Mayo Nalates Urriah Rex Cronon
Simon Linden Vincent Nacon

Transcript

[16:02] Moundsa Mayo: Kitto did a KFM multi-unit train when it first came out but there were still some glitches that needed ironing out. i think those are resolved now.

[16:02] DrFran Babcock: oooooh

[16:03] Simon Linden: If anyone has interesting things to sit on, feel free to rez them

[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: yes, the SLRR testing regions are being brought back up on Aditi - they'll be moved to the Pathfinding RC for development and testing of rolling stock with the latest features.

[16:03] DrFran Babcock: time for an update! I love SL, because improvements are always made.

[16:04] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[16:04] DrFran Babcock: hello, Rex

[16:04] Moundsa Mayo: I did some preliminary work in the Pathtest regions, but you really need permanent track with control of obstacles. Some few seem to delight in rezzing junk on the track.

[16:04] Andrew Linden: Sorry I couldn't make it to Tuesday's user group.

[16:04] Rex Cronon: hi drfran

[16:04] Andrew Linden: I was available technically, but fighting some build issues that needed to get resolved.

[16:05] Andrew Linden: I'm still working on pathfinding, am hopefully only a couple weeks from done.

[16:06] Jonathan Yap: I just tried the PF viewer briefly for the 2nd time

[16:06] DrFran Babcock: it's fun to turn on the mesh, but I FAIL at making it work

[16:06] Andrew Linden: We're going to try to make the editing of navmeshy objects a little smoother, which is what I'm working on now server-side, and then final bug fixing.

[16:06] Andrew Linden: That's all the news I've got.

[16:07] Vincent Nacon: and I missed it

[16:07] Simon Linden: I don't have much to add, except a little about the server rolls next week

[16:07] Baker Linden: I finally fixed SVC-4444, and have committed the change.

[16:07] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4444

[#SVC-4444] Objects become fully permissive when rezzed under certain conditions. - with Repro

[16:08] Baker Linden: With beaucoup thanks to Andrew for helping me understand permissions

[16:08] Simon Linden: The main channel will have essentially the same simulator code, but gets an update to some other SL system software

[16:08] Moundsa Mayo: Wow, good work navigating the permissions, labrynth, Baker!

[16:08] Andrew Linden: Baker's fix sits in a maintenance project. It will be a few weeks before it is deployed to RC.

[16:08] Baker Linden: I lost like 30 sanity points, but I leveled up. It was worth it.

[16:09] Rex Cronon: so now any chahges made to ojb perms while inside inventory will be permanent?

[16:09] Moundsa Mayo: Heee.

[16:09] Moundsa Mayo: Prolly want to test that fix quite throoughly B^P

[16:10] Andrew Linden: Uh... Rex, the repro recipe Baker was working with is fixed. I wouldn't go so far as to say "any changes made in inventory will be permanent".

[16:10] Simon Linden: That's it for my news

[16:10] Andrew Linden: But we're a little closer to being 100% correct.

[16:11] Rex Cronon: ok. so will still have to keep my eyes open

[16:11] Baker Linden: yeah

[16:11] Andrew Linden: Yeah, we all do.

[16:11] Baker Linden: I made it easy to toggle that change in case something bad happens

[16:11] Baker Linden: we can turn it off

[16:11] Andrew Linden: Actually, Baker wired his fix so that it could be enabled/disabled at runtime... just in case something goes terribly wrong.

[16:11] Rex Cronon: nice

[16:12] Andrew Linden: If everything goes according to plan that config will just be the default (enabled) for a few months without any problems.

[16:12] Andrew Linden: And then we'll eventually remember to pull the config out and make it a 100% compiled fix.

[16:13] Baker Linden: but if you have a case like what's in the jira repro -- an item with full perms that was placed into a container and then had permissions changed to something more restrictive, the more restrictive perms should now stick when giving the container to people

[16:13] Andrew Linden: Ok table is open.

[16:14] Vincent Nacon: no sit target because of the sculpty prim block you from sitting it

[16:14] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[16:14] Ardy Lay: There is no spo.... table.

[16:14] Andrew Linden: Sigh... sculpts.

[16:14] Vincent Nacon: this will do

[16:14] Andrew Linden: A blessing and a curse.

[16:15] AnnMarie Otoole: Any chance of taking a look at SCR-43. It appears to be a simple error in coding that should be easy to fix. (Refers to having to re-rez an object to get llListen to work in child prims).

[16:15] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-43

[#SCR-43] Listeners in child prims get positioned at root prim position first, then switch to child prim position after re-rez (resulting in wrong listener / whisper radius)

[16:15] Ardy Lay: Well, I wish I could see the prim as it it wasn't sculpted.

[16:15] Ardy Lay: I have been trying to educate somebody.

[16:16] Ardy Lay: "Show Physics Shape" crashes the viewer.

[16:16] Simon Linden: wow, that one goes way back, AnnMarie. I'll make a note of it for our next triage meeting

[16:16] AnnMarie Otoole: Thank you.

[16:17] Andrew Linden: Yeah, that looks like a good one to fix.

[16:17] Simon Linden: I can see it being worse with larger objects now

[16:18] Rex Cronon: with a 64m prim it does make a diffrence

[16:18] Simon Linden: I wonder if we'd break things ... if the child prim is actually outside of chat range, but can hear now due to using the root position

[16:19] Simon Linden: but using the actual position makes more intuitive sense to me

[16:19] Ardy Lay: Might break a snooping tool or two. ;-)

[16:19] Ardy Lay: Specifically the ones whose instructions say to always res a fresh copy.

[16:19] AnnMarie Otoole: It corrects itself to listening at the child location after a re-rez, just doesn't work if you attach a prim without re-rezzing.

[16:20] Ardy Lay: AH

[16:20] AnnMarie Otoole: Which makes it difficult to work around with dynamic adding and removing prims.

[16:20] Simon Linden: Right - that's a clear point where it's breaking and the behavior changes

[16:21] Andrew Linden: Good, that means it will break less content. Most of the breakable content is stuff that was made a long time ago and has been rezzed from asset since it was created.

[16:21] Andrew Linden: Anybody know if the bug survives a region save/load cycle? (restart)

[16:21] Vincent Nacon: ....Have Rod thought about pushing LL into making Third Life yet?

[16:21] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[16:22] Andrew Linden: ah, there it is in the bug comments: a region restart will fix the bug

[16:22] Simon Linden: If we start talking about secret new projects, the AVs in the white coats will come and take us away

[16:22] Andrew Linden: good

[16:22] Draconis Neurocam: no idea but https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-79 would be nice, as would https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SCR-321

[16:23] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-321] llGetParcelPrimOwnersFull a way to get all of the owner keys of prims in a sim in a strided list not capped at 100.

[16:23] JIRA-helper: [#SCR-79] llMatchGroup() - Checks if an object or agent is active in a specified group.

[16:24] Ardy Lay: Parcel != "sim"

[16:24] Ardy Lay: "sim" ~= Region

[16:24] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I think Baker needs some exposure to fixing script bugs, and adding new script functions.

[16:24] Vincent Nacon: even a parcel can be full sim sized

[16:24] Draconis Neurocam: ardy i still know parcels with over 100 object owners

[16:24] Rex Cronon: there r some sims that have less than 5 parcels

[16:24] Ardy Lay: How mych memory you need to store that list?

[16:24] DrFran Babcock: Baker can do it.

[16:25] Ardy Lay: Oh, I have a region that is all one parcel.

[16:25] Draconis Neurocam: i doubt it would be more than the 4096 being opened up with httprequest

[16:25] Ardy Lay: I also have one that is over 30 parcels.

[16:26] Ardy Lay: How my bytes in a UUID?

[16:26] Ardy Lay: =my +many

[16:26] Moundsa Mayo: 36

[16:26] Ardy Lay: Ugh

[16:26] DrFran Babcock: VOICE !!!!

[16:26] Baker Linden: I completely disagree with every statement about me fixing scripting bugs

[16:26] Moundsa Mayo: B^D

[16:26] Ardy Lay: How many UUIDs per "prim"?

[16:26] DrFran Babcock: heh

[16:26] Baker Linden: unless that statement is "no he shouldn't do that." Then I agree fully.

[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: baker your voice is on id you werent aware

[16:26] Ardy Lay: Or do you really mean object?

[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: if*

[16:27] Rex Cronon: 256 max nr of prims per object

[16:27] Baker Linden: sorry. this middle mouse is sensitive

[16:27] Draconis Neurocam: what i mean ardy is that the previous function only shows you 100 owners of different objects and cuts off

[16:27] Kelly Linden: I don't really like functions that can return lists of unbounded size.

[16:27] Jonathan Yap: Do you need that list in a script, or would having it in the UI be okay?

[16:27] Ardy Lay: THose make things go boom

[16:28] Draconis Neurocam: jonathan, its for a sim which i help with in which not everyone has permission to view who owns how many prims, so i have no way to format that data than by copying it by hand

[16:28] Draconis Neurocam: from the about land panel

[16:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[16:30] Kelly Linden: Maybe you need smaller parcels. ;)

[16:30] Andrew Linden: What is llGetParcelPrimOwners() most useful for?

[16:30] Rex Cronon: to see who has things rezzed on your parcel

[16:30] Draconis Neurocam: right

[16:31] Kelly Linden: That is what it does - what are you doing with that information

[16:31] Rex Cronon: sometimes people put follower on u

[16:31] Andrew Linden: as part of an automated system? or just to augment an incomplete viewer UI?

[16:31] Rex Cronon: this way u see what follows u from parcel to parcel

[16:31] Rex Cronon: ui

[16:32] Ardy Lay: Ah, I was thinking he wanted it to list the object too.

[16:32] Andrew Linden: We don't have llReturnObject() (although it has been requested).

[16:33] Jonathan Yap: the new pathfinder UI lists objects

[16:33] Andrew Linden: I could see how llReturnObject() and llGetParcelPrimOwners() could be used together... a janitorial bot could be made to monitor parcel contents effectively.

[16:33] Draconis Neurocam: right andrew

[16:34] Andrew Linden: The new pathfinder UI provides lists that are filtered...

[16:34] Andrew Linden: if you don't have perms to modify an object then it doesn't show up in the list of objects

[16:34] Rex Cronon: sometimes people like to rez a high altitude platform, or even house, or a store

[16:35] Andrew Linden: although... I think the UI for viewing characters (AI objects) shows all characters

[16:35] Andrew Linden: its intended use is to allow debugging of characters when the region performance suffers

[16:35] Andrew Linden: or general management of character resources

[16:35] Ardy Lay: Andrew, is that list filtered by the service or by the client?

[16:36] Andrew Linden: by the service. The simulator provides the list and only includes data that it thinks the viewer needs to know about.

[16:36] Ardy Lay: Good. We are learning.

[16:37] Andrew Linden: The simulator allows Estate Managers to change navmesh properties of objects

[16:37] Andrew Linden: so Estate Managers will get big lists in the navmesh linksets UI

[16:38] Andrew Linden: Anyway, my inclination would be to try to provide a way for the viewer to request the relevant info rather than implement llGetParcelPrimOwnersFull()

[16:39] Andrew Linden: unless it is desperately needed for a parcel maintenance bot

[16:39] Simon Linden: I wonder how often that one would hit whatever limit we put on the results

[16:39] Ardy Lay: Can people see their own counts on land they have no management capabilities on?

[16:39] Draconis Neurocam: nope

[16:39] Ardy Lay: I'd like them to be able to, and to return their own stuff from the list.

[16:39] Draconis Neurocam: that would be nice actually htough

[16:40] Draconis Neurocam: yeah ardy

[16:40] Andrew Linden: Ardy, good point. Maybe they should?

[16:40] Draconis Neurocam: that makes sense

[16:40] Ardy Lay: I often have to help clean up when somebody res something they should not have and it gets away from them.

[16:41] Andrew Linden: Hrm... what are the arguments against giving them all the object data for parcels that they don't own?

[16:41] Andrew Linden: That is, why not open that info for everybody?

[16:41] Ardy Lay: Information overload?

[16:41] Vincent Nacon: I don't see why not

[16:41] Ardy Lay: Some new folks might get lost in that. ;-)

[16:41] Simon Linden: I guess that would depend on what you plan to do with the info

[16:41] Draconis Neurocam: i don't see a problem andrew, as long as they can't do anything about it besides their own objects, but my opinion is not everyones

[16:42] Ardy Lay: Imagine that parcel with over objects owned by over a hundred people.

[16:42] Ardy Lay: If that won't be a problem then I won't mind it.

[16:42] Londen Adored: Can people really abuse it? I always lose my stuff but I don't want to have to bother people to go find it.

[16:42] Andrew Linden: Well... the information management is a problem for the viewer. The UI just needs to be improved.

[16:42] Rex Cronon: is already possible to get partial info about objects on a parcel.

[16:43] Andrew Linden waves hands at that problem and says "Viewer devs will fix it."

[16:43] Ardy Lay: Can't abuse it any more than right-click, return, which the service blocks.

[16:43] Draconis Neurocam: andrew, where can i talk to some?

[16:43] Draconis Neurocam: heh

[16:43] Jonathan Yap: the ui could filter by name

[16:43] Londen Adored: Well then.

[16:44] Rex Cronon: sometimes i might go on a parcel and look for one of my objects and this way i could find it lots easier

[16:44] Ardy Lay: Yes

[16:44] Andrew Linden: In theory a 3rd party viewer could scrape all or most of the info that would be provided by a parcel item list, via automated select-obj-and-cache-info system.

[16:44] Jonathan Yap: I have flown around a lot trying to find my lost item as a blue square on the minimap

[16:44] Ardy Lay: I kinda think a drillable list of manageable objects, giving location when opened would be nice too.

[16:44] Rex Cronon: i don't think that is just a theory andrew

[16:44] Andrew Linden: It would be a messy project, but is not impossible.

[16:45] Andrew Linden: Right, perhaps someone has done it.

[16:45] DrFran Babcock: I agree, Ardy.

[16:45] Ardy Lay: Andrew, area search

[16:45] Rex Cronon: usually when i look on other parcles is when i loose my objects

[16:45] Ardy Lay: Somebody has that in viewer, yes

[16:45] Andrew Linden: Which just goes to support the idea that the info should just be made available for easy consumption.

[16:45] Vincent Nacon: sounds like a job for spiderbots

[16:45] AnnMarie Otoole: The SL script editor has a dropdown list of all functions that is totally useless, you still have to go to the Portal to get a list of required parameters. The list would be VERY helpful if the functions contained the list of parameters like the definitions in the Portal.

[16:46] Ardy Lay: Hover mouse over the function name after inserting it into script source.

[16:46] Nalates Urriah: The solution to that is LSLEditor

[16:46] Simon Linden: yeah - and I'd really like the "paste the tooltip into text" function so it would set up those parameters

[16:46] Rex Cronon: could we have llParcelObjects(uuid owner) :)

[16:47] Ardy Lay: Oooh.. nice, Simon.

[16:47] Andrew Linden: Which reminds me... the script highlighting info in the pathfinding viewer is already out of date. I need to update it.

[16:47] Andrew Linden: Sigh...

[16:47] Ardy Lay: Andrew, is that pushed yet?

[16:47] Nalates Urriah: Weren't you and Ima getting an auto-update thing working?

[16:47] Ardy Lay: We need to have things like GPU table and script syntax pushed to viewers.

[16:48] Andrew Linden: That was an idea. I kinda ran out of time to get it done.

[16:48] Ardy Lay: Ah

[16:48] Ardy Lay: OKay

[16:48] Ardy Lay: Oz might like to help. ;-)

[16:48] Ardy Lay: He like things that make maintenance easier.

[16:50] Andrew Linden: Yeah... really I'd just like to get the service up first.

[16:50] Andrew Linden: Which really shouldn't be very hard to do...

[16:50] Andrew Linden: hence my "Sigh..." earlier.

[16:51] Ardy Lay: Hmm.... Can wiki pull from that service too?

[16:51] Andrew Linden: Well, maybe I'll get it done yet. I was reminded today.

[16:51] Kelly Linden: Yeah. Ima was working on the viewer support for getting all the syntax from a single file, pretty good progress too.

[16:52] Andrew Linden: I'll make yet another note and maybe I'll find it on my desk on Monday.

[16:52] Kelly Linden: Ping me when ya do - I'd like to sync up with you on it.

[16:52] Ardy Lay imagines Andrew's desk sometimes looks like a public SL sandbox.

[16:52] Andrew Linden: Must remember: when waitin for that compile to finish I should be working on providing LSL syntax as a service.

[16:52] Kelly Linden: no, that is falcon's desk

[16:53] Ardy Lay: Hehe

[16:53] Rex Cronon: if his desk looked like that he would be lagging all the time

[16:53] Ardy Lay: Falcon gets people leaving stuff everywhere?

[16:53] Vincent Nacon: Falcon is fairly new to LL, isn't he?

[16:53] Andrew Linden: Actually I had a big pile of post-it notes from User Group on my desk a few weeks ago.

[16:54] Kelly Linden: I don't consider Falcon to be new to LL.

[16:54] Andrew Linden: I cleaned them up must recently. Now it is nice and cleaner

[16:54] Rex Cronon: i think there is program for posting notes on your screen:)

[16:54] Vincent Nacon: clean desk is another chance to get messy

[16:54] DrFran Babcock: yes, I have a widget on my mac with postits

[16:54] Ardy Lay: Heh, I used to take notes on SL Notecards.

[16:55] DrFran Babcock: I still do

[16:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[16:55] Ardy Lay: I don't run SL at work now.

[16:55] Vincent Nacon: yeah I have sticky notes on my desktop (in windows 7, not physical desk)

[16:55] Ardy Lay: Not allowed to take my notebook in due to security restrictions.

[16:56] Ardy Lay: -notebook +notebook computer

[16:56] DrFran Babcock: :(

[16:56] Rex Cronon: u have to leave your cell phone home too?

[16:57] Ardy Lay: THey have lockers for those.

[16:57] Vincent Nacon: there's new SL viewer with 3D app for phone now

[16:57] DrFran Babcock: do tell

[16:57] Simon Linden: really? What's that called?

[16:57] Draconis Neurocam: http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/

[16:57] Rex Cronon: ipsl;)

[16:58] Vincent Nacon: yup that's it he beat me to it

[16:58] DrFran Babcock: Android.bah

[16:58] DrFran Babcock: iPhone, iMac, MBP, iPod, iDrFran

[16:59] Ardy Lay: iGetIt

[16:59] Ardy Lay: Android is for tinkerers.

[16:59] Vincent Nacon: anyway, that's all for today's meeting then?

[16:59] Ardy Lay: Lots of people like to tinker.

[16:59] DrFran Babcock: thanks all. A learning experience as usual.

[16:59] Andrew Linden: Yup. This meeting is nearly over.

[17:00] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone one again for the good chat

[17:00] DrFran Babcock: Yes, Ardy.

[17:00] Jonathan Yap: have a good weekend everybody

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: no it's over now

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: :P

[17:00] Moundsa Mayo: Andrew, Simon, Kelly, Baker, thanks for your time and hard work!

[17:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[17:00] Simon Linden: That 3D phone viewer looks interesting

[17:00] DrFran Babcock: yes

[17:00] Andrew Linden: Have a nice weekend.

[17:00] DrFran Babcock: but, I won't buy an android to get it.

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: 8:00 just chimed in

[17:00] DrFran Babcock: thanks, have a nice California weekend.

[17:00] Vincent Nacon: aye, take care all

[17:00] Ardy Lay: Thanks

[17:00] Rex Cronon: tc simon, andrew, baker, and all the others present here. have a nice day all:)

[17:01] Moundsa Mayo: By now the iPhones should be able to EMULATE Android ...

[17:01] DrFran Babcock: one day:wqa



Simulator_User_Group

Prev 2012.06.05 Next 2012.06.12