Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.02.19

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List of Speakers

Baker Linden Davido Chrome Honza Noyes
Ima Mechanique Inara Pey Jonathan Yap
Kelly Linden Lares Carter Lexbot Sinister
Lucia Nightfire Motor Loon Nalates Urriah
NeoBokrug Elytis Petteri Yiyuan Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon Simon Linden Squirrel Wood
Tankmaster Finesmith Yuzuru Jewell


[12:01] Simon Linden: Let's get started ... I don't think Andrew will be able to attend today

[12:01] Davido Chrome: Yeah, now that many people are here I see segments of Squirrels tail be left behind now and then.

[12:02] Simon Linden: For server releases, we're doing the main grid roll tomorrow instead of Tuesday due to yesterday's holiday in the US

[12:02] Simon Linden: The RCs will get their updates Thursday morning

[12:02] Rex Cronon: lol. i was just checking squrrel's tail. to see how many prims it has:)

[12:03] Simon Linden: Tomorrow the code that's in Magnum, which has Andrew's interest list work plus the materials work, will get promoted

[12:03] Simon Linden: Then on Thursday all the RCs will get an updated version of what's in LeTigre now, a maintenance release with some bug fixes

[12:03] Tankmaster Finesmith: should be interesting ?

[12:04] Simon Linden: There was some other code in the works but we found a bug that needs to be fixed first

[12:05] Simon Linden: Next week we should be back on the usual schedule ... my crystal ball is a big foggy but I would expect that bug fix code to be promoted and some new things in RC

[12:06] Squirrel Wood: 20 "prims" Rex

[12:06] Rex Cronon: u guys should have a blog with all the bugs u fix, what caused them, and how u fixed. it could be quiet an interesting read simon:)

[12:06] Simon Linden: That's it for my news, so the floor's open for questions or topics

[12:06] Petteri Yiyuan: so it will be on 21st on Magnuc, BlueSteel and Letiegre?

[12:06] Qie Niangao: I don't see Maestro's usual weekly Deploys thread in the Server forum... maybe he's off today?

[12:07] Qie Niangao: oh, never mind, there it is.

[12:07] Simon Linden:

[12:07] Qie Niangao: thanks.

[12:07] Simon Linden: It looks a bit rough but he updated it with that bug we just found

[12:07] Rex Cronon: i saw that squirrel. i was just curious what was wiggling in wront of me:)

[12:08] Rex Cronon: in front*

[12:08] Simon Linden: hmm, everyone is pretty quiet today ... I hope that's a good sign

[12:09] Lares Carter: What was with the bug where after a sim crossing the objects from the neighbour sim show up? I've seen it much worse recently. I checked with Ctrl+Alt+Shift+U for object updates and there are no "rez-dots" visible for those duplicate objects.

[12:09] Rex Cronon: people r tiptoeing. don't want to break things:)

[12:09] Ima Mechanique: you mean hopefully it's not a sign of chat lag ;-)

[12:09] Petteri Yiyuan: i have noticed a bug that when you rezz prims they go phantom even you dont set them phantom. Only way to get them nonphantom is to restart server

[12:09] Davido Chrome: I got curious about this:

[12:09] Simon Linden: lol Ima

[12:10] Tankmaster Finesmith: its a baker!

[12:10] Motor Loon: what Lares asked... and also what was the last minute found bug about?

[12:11] Simon Linden: Do you have a bug number for that one, Lares? I remember the report but don't recall the fix ... it sounds like either an interest list problem or maybe the viewer getting confused during the crossing

[12:11] Davido Chrome: Ah, yeah, the sim crossing with objects following makes the sim crossings be even more immersion killers. And very annoying.

[12:11] Motor Loon: (sounds like havok memory leak bug Petteri)

[12:11] Lares Carter: I am certain there is a JIRA for it, but I can't see it. :)

[12:11] Kelly Linden: how large are the prims petteri?

[12:11] Lares Carter: Nor search for it.

[12:12] Lares Carter: I see that duplicate bug on Magnum regions, but also on main server channel regions.

[12:12] Petteri Yiyuan: kelly: i haventn noticed any difference to size. Probably it has started some mesh terrain things and i then just rezz normal cube and test it to see i am not hallusinating and make it something like 5x5x5 and fly trhough it like ghost

[12:12] Lares Carter: So doesn't seem to be limited to interest list changes. And hasn't been fixed with interest list either.

[12:13] Simon Linden: Lares - I found it, and it appears to have been a viewer bug

[12:14] Lares Carter: Ah, thank you.

[12:14] Tankmaster Finesmith: the viewer doesn't have bug! just undocumented features!

[12:14] Motor Loon: great news Simon

[12:14] Simon Linden: You're beginning to sound like us, Tank :)

[12:15] Motor Loon: quick, shoot him with silver before he fully converts

[12:15] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol

[12:15] Lares Carter: I got another question: I've been looking at those object update dots a lot recently and there are always a lot showing up at <0,0,0> in the region - what are those about?

[12:15] Tankmaster Finesmith: been working with your code to much :P

[12:15] Rex Cronon: u guys infected him:)

[12:15] Simon Linden: That would do it

[12:15] Ima Mechanique: argh! the code's gone virul

[12:16] Ima Mechanique: er viral

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: one interest list bug that annoys me is that root prims from a distance don't show their child prims until you cam closer to the root

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: cam away and the child prims disappear again and repat

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire: *repeat

[12:17] Simon Linden: There are some tweaks to that calculation in the works, Lucy. Andrew has a second round of work going to QA now .. I know he adjusted that a bit

[12:17] Petteri Yiyuan: One prim to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

[12:17] Rex Cronon: that i don't think will be fixed anytime soon lucia. the server would have too work to much:(

[12:17] Lexbot Sinister: Does anyone know if a bug has been reported with constant disconnects on region crossing? Seems like i can no longer cross regions properly...

[12:18] NeoBokrug Elytis: My friend also has that issue Lexbot

[12:18] Davido Chrome: There seems to have been a regression on Simcrossings. Getting stuck in a corner spinning now and then again.

[12:18] Lares Carter: I got a couple disconnects on region crossing and TPs. And unable to TP to certain destinations from some sims.

[12:19] Lexbot Sinister: Sometimes the bordering sim doesn't even bother to appear, until i relog. :((

[12:19] Simon Linden: do you have any ideas about when that started, or maybe between which server versions?

[12:19] NeoBokrug Elytis: About a month ago?

[12:19] NeoBokrug Elytis: (let me ask)

[12:19] Simon Linden: There's a fix in the pipeline for that problem with region neighbors not seeing each other

[12:20] Davido Chrome: Also this: SVC-7684

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister: Started um.. Lets see, it became constant about two weeks ago, but it did happen on occasion before. Although this week 4 out of 5 region crossings, on foot, fail.

[12:20] Simon Linden: ... that fix is in QA now

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire: region crossing in the TG sandboxes is bad atm, you never know what prims you have attached are going to make it or if you'll be able to tp anywhere after

[12:20] Davido Chrome: It's weird, when it gets fixed in one region the bug pops up in other regions many regions away.

[12:21] Davido Chrome: It never happens in the original region I reported it in anymore though.

[12:22] Honza Noyes: About two years ago there was a JIRA - - llRezObjectFast, Kelly mentioned that there could be "llNoFunctionSleeps or similar" instead. Any chance this feature will get attention, as it was the last time I heard about it.

[12:22] Simon Linden: Alve - for SVC-7684 people are trying to reproduce it. We've seen it but it's hard to make happen ... there's probably some factor with network timing involved, which is a pain to make happen from our offices

[12:23] Davido Chrome: Ah. Ok. On my end it reproduces 99% of the times. But only in specific regions.

[12:24] Davido Chrome: You have ti hop off and sit back on, sometimes you are left facing backwards after the sim crossing. XD

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire: soemtimes your cam gets stuck at teh border, lol

[12:25] Davido Chrome: That has never happened to me though.

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire: I use cam control in my npv, as I can control omega offsetting with it, don't ask, lol

[12:25] Davido Chrome: It's strangem because if you can so you look from the back of the vihicle it will snap back to the faulty view when you press a control key.

[12:25] Simon Linden: I haven't recently looked in detail about all that region crossing messaging, but maybe there's an update getting lost or something

[12:26] Davido Chrome: cam*

[12:26] Davido Chrome: So if you get stuck looking backwards, and cam so you look forwards again, it will snap back to looking backwards when you start driving.

[12:27] Lexbot Sinister: Wonder if thats somehow related to automated vehicles getting stuck at region border and spinning around?

[12:27] Simon Linden: Honza - SCR-154 is interesting. It would be nice to remove some of those delays, but we'll have to figure out how to do that without allowing even worse griefing

[12:27] Motor Loon: for what Davido says, it helps to re-take the camera via script and reapply the camera settings.

[12:28] Motor Loon: (I have a vehicle where I do that do prevent the bug, and it works)

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire: ya, going to have to add a provision for taht with region change

[12:28] Davido Chrome: Motor, sounds like a nice workaround.

[12:28] Simon Linden: ah, so you can work-around by detecting the region change and re-doing the camera pos?

[12:29] Motor Loon: I'd prefer not having to work around it, but yeah °?°

[12:29] Davido Chrome: Though, it adds a function that lags the sim as you are transferred to it, no?

[12:29] Motor Loon: yes Simon... bit more involved, but basically yeah

[12:29] NeoBokrug Elytis: SCR-154: Isn't there a grey goo fence in place already? People if they want to grief will just thread rezzing.

[12:29] Simon Linden: I don't think that work-around code would be particularly laggy

[12:29] Honza Noyes: There is, but the sleep on llRezObject is still there as well.

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire: you don't even need to rez to lag or crash sims these days

[12:30] Davido Chrome: Grey goo fence? Brain fence?

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:30] Simon Linden: The grey-goo fence is a mechansim to detect self-replicating objects

[12:31] Davido Chrome: Replication Without human brain interference?

[12:31] Kelly Linden: Anti-grief measures, in particular the grey goo fence, uses a lot of heuristics that are interdependent. Modifying the delay on rez would affect a lot of the numbers and they would need to be reworked.

[12:31] Rex Cronon: it detects the ones that do it too fast:)

[12:31] Kelly Linden: The grey goo fence is not as simple as a region wide limit on rez rate.

[12:32] Qie Niangao: Probably need another throttle (besides gray-goo) on rezzing... but in fact, it would be better to have that throttle (per object? per owner?) rather than the script delay, which doesn't really do anything anyway.

[12:32] Davido Chrome: Oh, Grey goo isn''t a brain simily in this case?

[12:32] Simon Linden: right - "grey goo" comes from the sci-fi / nanotechnology world. It's the idea that tiny self-replicating machines would get out of control and cover the world

[12:32] Honza Noyes: Per owner, like llInstantMessage would do the job.

[12:33] Davido Chrome: I suddenly understand Charles Stross books better...

[12:33] Honza Noyes: llInstantMessage also has the 2 second sleep, however there is a sort of "grey-goo" fence as well on it.

[12:33] Nalates Urriah: Stargate replicators ...

[12:33] Qie Niangao: I was thinking along the lines of the http throttles.

[12:33] Davido Chrome: Or Iain M Banks Smatter infections.

[12:34] Honza Noyes: That works the same as on llInstantMessage, I assume.

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire: I always said, all resource usage/limitations should be based on if its publicly or privately owned, whereas if public it is not land owner or group set

[12:34] Rex Cronon: i should put my replicators for sale;)

[12:35] Davido Chrome: SL should have a Neural network server tied into it. To see how long it takes for it to become self aware!

[12:35] Qie Niangao: So, on another subject: Simon, remember ToySoldier's BUG-355 (aka MAINT-1682) ? According to reports in the forum thread, the problem remains (sudden massive lag and often crashes in event sims, associated with very high Network times and unack'd bytes). Wondering what sorts of data residents could collect to help pin-down what's going wrong.

[12:35] Simon Linden: I sometimes think it's already aware, Alve, but it's just not happy with all the avatars infesting it

[12:36] Nalates Urriah: I've been seeing Time Dilation and Network Time spikes all over.

[12:36] Ima Mechanique: Simon, it certainly *seems* to have occassional temper tantrums

[12:37] Nalates Urriah: BUG-355 seems to be well and growing

[12:37] Davido Chrome: Maybe it's the awareness using the high traffic as a cover to run it's own processes?

[12:37] Davido Chrome: It might be shy.

[12:38] Simon Linden: hmm, that sounds like it needs a fresh look. It seems like there's a spike in networking traffic, performance goes bad and thus all sorts of things don't work well

[12:39] Petteri Yiyuan: i have my full sim affected by this very same bug also Qie. It went better after sim was changed to some other server which should be better working but we still get sudden Network Time spikes which goes very. Explanation was that big 1024x1024 textures caused that. Those were removed and same problems still raise up

[12:39] Qie Niangao: Yeah.... I don't know whether the Network stuff is a *cause* or a kind of epiphenomenon, or artifact of the way the sim collects statistics on itself.

[12:39] Nalates Urriah: Yeah, I've been in nearly empty regions and been rubbberbanding like crazy. Then TD and Net Time clear up and things are fine.

[12:39] Davido Chrome: I am curious, how much lag does streaming a lot of avatars to users in an adjacent sim lookin on cause?

[12:40] Davido Chrome: Sounds like it could be related.

[12:40] Simon Linden: We've seen bad backups in those cases with texture traffic, but that may just be a side-effect of the network going bad. Most of the bandwidth is textures anyway

[12:41] Rex Cronon: if a sim has around 50 avatars, and if each one has mesh attache to each attachment point and with scripts in them, and and if a new ave leaves every 5 seconds while a new one arrives...

[12:41] NeoBokrug Elytis: As for the region spikes in performance, here's what I found out: I have a resident who has trouble on one of my problematic regions (always has problems) but he lives in the UK and has a slow connection. The region will be fine, he will enter and it's performance will tank.

[12:41] Davido Chrome: People have tried holding simball events with the audience looking from an adjacent sim, but there doesn't seem to be any reduction in lag in the arena sim.

[12:42] Qie Niangao: Anyway, there are venue-owners highly motivated to try to help isloate the problem, so if anybody thinks of anything they can do, maybe a post to that thread would get results.

[12:42] Simon Linden: That's an interesting clue, Neo

[12:43] Rex Cronon: it take too long to push the data down a small pipe?

[12:43] Simon Linden: I wonder if we have some blocking network operation somewhere that stall on his slow connection

[12:43] Lexbot Sinister: Oh, btw, i'm in sweden. Would that change anything? My connection is great though, and even on low-traffic hours, i get disconnected on sim crossings, or just in general.

[12:43] Simon Linden: That kind of thing happens all the time, Rex, but _shouldn't_ slow the region down

[12:43] Petteri Yiyuan: i also run very active sim and we have weekly events where amount of participants can go to 40 or 50, few weeks ago there was 70. Good part of people are europeans so i suppose connections are not so good as US peopel as there is pacific between

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, I suspected that as well, always see spikes in net timing with certain agents no matter if they're wearing anythign or not

[12:44] Jonathan Yap: lexbot, you could have a flaky router; many of them have some serious deficiencies

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire: net timing, agent timing

[12:44] Lexbot Sinister: it didn't use to be this way though.

[12:44] Lexbot Sinister: nothing changed on my end.

[12:44] Davido Chrome: My apartment house is also in Sweden, got fiber though, that recently got upgraded to 1Gb per s.

[12:44] Lexbot Sinister: I also have fiber, etc. Same same.

[12:45] NeoBokrug Elytis: Simon: I think slow connections have been impacting SL regions for years, it just seems more aggravated in past years. Such as if someone sets their viewer bandwidth higher than they can support things used to get bad for the region.

[12:45] Petteri Yiyuan: there is lot of cable between sweden and USA....

[12:45] Jonathan Yap: lexbot, try from a friend's house, that will eliminate the router issue (make sure it is different than yours)

[12:46] Motor Loon: a euro connection dont have to be worse than a US connection at all... though most would have slightly higher ping times (but doubt that would affect any of this)

[12:46] Petteri Yiyuan: ok i dont know what is now current fastest network speed what you can set from viewer but i remember seeing in one phonix viewer 10 000 kbs or something? I remember in old default sl viewer it was 2000 or something what was maxium?

[12:46] Simon Linden: These sound like good ideas ... and unfortunately conditions that are really difficult to reproduce in a testing setup

[12:46] Davido Chrome: Anyway, I am still curious about how this affects events: People have tried holding simball events with the audience looking from an adjacent sim, but there doesn't seem to be any reduction in lag in the arena sim.

[12:46] Jonathan Yap: tankmaster knows about network speeds

[12:47] Jonathan Yap: there was a change to reduce the max to 1,500

[12:47] Simon Linden: If that's the case, Alve, then the lag isn't an issue with bandwidth or sending those updates. I'd guess physics

[12:47] NeoBokrug Elytis: Which is why the JIRA should be at least publicly viewable so we can collaborate again. Or at least certain issues.

[12:48] Jonathan Yap: at some points the server doubles that value (right simon?)

[12:48] Davido Chrome: Simon, thats strange, because you don't get lag without an audience.

[12:48] Lexbot Sinister: Agreed neo, whenever i have an issue it's like flailing my arms in the dark :/

[12:48] Simon Linden: I'm pretty sure the max now is 3m

[12:48] Jonathan Yap: it that capped at the server Simon?

[12:48] Jonathan Yap: *is

[12:49] Davido Chrome: Simon, in that past you have tiold us it's capped at 2000.

[12:49] Jonathan Yap: And I think that only applies to UDP transfers?

[12:49] Tankmaster Finesmith: the simulator is caped at 3k for UDP traffic

[12:49] Simon Linden: Unfortunately those settings on Jira being private are outside my control

[12:49] Tankmaster Finesmith: thats why FS reduced the max to 3k from 10k

[12:49] Motor Loon: davido - have you guys tried using that new privacy feature - so audience would be on a privacy parcel - they can look out, but cannot be seen from outside the parcel. That might help with "viewer lag" for the people playing simball..

[12:49] Rex Cronon: if somebody were to make an outside jira...

[12:50] Davido Chrome: Motor, no. I will definitely recommed trying it.

[12:50] Simon Linden: and that gets sub-divided a bit to try and prevent one type (like textures) from hogging all the bandwidth

[12:50] NeoBokrug Elytis: You could ask whoever is in control of that. :|

[12:50] Tankmaster Finesmith: we have also found lots of residents have isseus woth the likes of baking and streaming sound if they set their UDP bandwith much above 1500, even if they have a 20mb Fiber connection

[12:50] Davido Chrome: Thanks!

[12:50] Motor Loon: (I'm on a 50mbit fiber connection and I keep my max. bandwidth under 1000)

[12:51] Tankmaster Finesmith: montey is working to move more services over to http, and improve the http throuput

[12:52] Simon Linden: That's interesting, Phoenix - we don't do _anything_ with streaming sound other than pass around the URL and related data. That connection to the streaming server, and the server itself, it all outside of our servers and bandwidth counting

[12:52] NeoBokrug Elytis: Perhaps something to consider is have the viewer do a bandwidth test with each install, and set the settings automagically. That way people get the best settings for SL.

[12:52] Tankmaster Finesmith: yeah, im not sure why some have issues with streaming sound if the udp is set high

[12:52] Tankmaster Finesmith: we also found a bug in the throtteling code where it wont work right if the bandwith is above 2k

[12:53] Jonathan Yap: is that a viewer or server bug?

[12:53] Tankmaster Finesmith: viewer

[12:53] Davido Chrome: Simon, but yes. We do get more physics lag when there is an audience, even when it's seated in an adjacent sim.

[12:53] Simon Linden: I'd be curious to see that bug, Phoenix ... there's a chance it's on the server too since they once shared a lot of code

[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: we made a jira on is a while ago

[12:54] Motor Loon: Tank is not actually callled "Phoenix" simon °?°

[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: it*

[12:54] Motor Loon: damn displaynames...

[12:54] Simon Linden: ah, ok, sorry ... just mentally parsing the first part of the name :)

[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith: lol

[12:54] Ima Mechanique: Tank, isn't it time to drop the Phoenix from the front. Keep up with the web site? ;-)

[12:54] Motor Loon: confused me a bit until I figured out who you was talking to °?°

[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith: and to think, i can still add 2 charidtors to the display name...

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:56] Rex Cronon: if people adjacent sims affect havok, that means those sim r on same server?

[12:56] Davido Chrome: I have no idea.

[12:56] Motor Loon: Don't really make sense to me that they would affect physics?!

[12:56] Simon Linden: People on adjacent sims shouldn't have a direct effect on Havok, I think

[12:56] Davido Chrome: I am thinking that the streaming of the avatar updates steal frames from the physics calculations.

[12:57] Motor Loon: you mean affect as in... you feel some lag - or you actually see numbers go down?

[12:57] Simon Linden: right, they'll use up the CPU for updates and such, but their AV shape is not part of the physics simulation

[12:58] Davido Chrome: What is sent over should be possition updates mostly.

[12:59] Davido Chrome: I never looked at the numbers, going to try and remember to do that on the next big event.

[12:59] Davido Chrome: You notice physics lag in that you go through walls and get stuck in ramps/pegs.

[12:59] Simon Linden: The updates aren't really much different than if you were on the same region, they just come from the neighbor

[13:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Davido Chrome: That means that scripts that do visual things are run on both regions?

[13:00] Tankmaster Finesmith: thx for your time and info, simon

[13:00] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon, Kelly, Baker... have fun, all.

[13:01] Davido Chrome: Yes, thank you very much.

[13:01] Simon Linden: No Alve, they just run where the object with the script is. But on that region, we know there is someone on the neighbor region that is looking at that object, so it sends an update to them

[13:01] Jonathan Yap: Thank you everybody

[13:01] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you Simon.

[13:01] Davido Chrome: Ah, ok.

[13:01] Nalates Urriah: Thx Lindens

[13:01] Simon Linden: So for example, sitting here ... if you're seeing into Longfellow to the south, you're getting updates and data from that region

[13:01] Lares Carter: Thanks for the meeting.

[13:01] Ima Mechanique: thanks guys

[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc everybody and have a nice day:)

[13:01] Baker Linden: Thanks for coming everyone!

[13:01] Inara Pey: Thanks, Lindens

[13:01] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good talk

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister: Thanks for the meeting!


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