Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.11.12

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List of Speakers

Andrew Linden Baker Linden Davido Chrome
Duckie Dickins Firey Indigo Ima Mechanique
Jenna Felton Jonathan Yap Kennylex Luckless
Kitto Flora Lexbot Sinister Lucia Nightfire
MartinRJ Resident Mona Eberhardt Rex Cronon
Simon Linden Siwo Resident Susie Chaffe
TankMaster Finesmith Tori Handrick Whirly Fizzle
Yerra Tripsa Yuzuru Jewell


[12:00] Kitto Flora: Hello , hello

[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Rex.

[12:00] Rex Cronon: u r welcome yuzuru:)

[12:00] Jenna Felton: hello :)

[12:01] Kennylex Luckless: Obduction did take Salazar Jack?

[12:01] Jenna Felton: hello Andrew

[12:01] Kitto Flora: These days, having local bits and pieces of builds never rez is quite usual

[12:01] Simon Linden: Hi everyone ... we can get started with the release news, which is relatively simple this week

[12:02] Simon Linden: There was no main channel update this morning because we had the same version on all channels

[12:02] Simon Linden: Tomorrow there are two versions going into the RC channels

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt: Hello all.

[12:02] Simon Linden: The forum post is here:

[12:03] Andrew Linden: Kitto, I'll ask you some questions about that problem later...

[12:03] Rex Cronon: hi mona

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Rex.

[12:03] Simon Linden: One is a maintenance release, the other is a back-end system update for experience tools

[12:03] Simon Linden: ... which I don't have any product or new info on, I'm afraid

[12:04] Simon Linden: It's early to predict but hopefully next week we'll have one of those promoted to the main channel, and another maintenance update

[12:05] Simon Linden: That's it for my news ... Andrew or Kelly do you guys have anything?

[12:06] Andrew Linden: I've been fixing a bug... but not one that is externally visible:

[12:06] Andrew Linden: in some cases our servers will upload an asset multiplie times before it successfully creates an inventory item (on take to inventory for example)

[12:06] Andrew Linden: which creates garbage assets in the asset system

[12:06] Andrew Linden: so I've been fixing that

[12:07] Andrew Linden: oh yeah, and there was another bug that I fixed...

[12:07] Kitto Flora: Does it show externally as a delay, or failure to arrive?

[12:07] Andrew Linden: Kitto, when the inv item creation fails yes there is a notification to the viewer (if the avatar is present in the region where it faile)

[12:08] Andrew Linden: and the notification would fire... about once every two seconds

[12:08] Andrew Linden: this should not happen except under very special (desperate) circumstances

[12:08] Andrew Linden: and hasn't been reported AFAIK

[12:08] Kitto Flora: Mmm - only see one notification, sometimes

[12:08] Andrew Linden: however I saw it happen on the beta grid and looked into it

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt: Hi Whirly.

[12:09] Kitto Flora: Usually it like drag/drop item from inv to content of object and it either never shows, or is very slow to shoe

[12:09] Andrew Linden: this other bug I fixed relates to "ghost objects" : on the viewer but not on the server

[12:09] Kitto Flora: or you have to kep re-selecting the object to get content to update

[12:09] Andrew Linden: I found a race condition that could produce such ghost objects (if you delete the objects too fast on a region crossing, for example)

[12:10] Andrew Linden: and I have a fix for it... somewhere. I don't think it is in an RC yet.

[12:10] Kitto Flora: Ones puts that down to 'the Asset server has problems again'

[12:10] Kitto Flora: Er gosts at the border - I see them

[12:10] Andrew Linden: and finally... Kitto about that "objects not showing up" bug you were talking about...

[12:10] Rex Cronon: now andrew u just have to fix "the bomb" and its clones;)

[12:10] Yuzuru Jewell: Andrew, do you know the issue of plane when it cross the sim?

[12:10] Kitto Flora: But its a standard ghost - not visible but its in physics - so you can collide with it

[12:10] Kennylex Luckless: Hia Baker

[12:11] Andrew Linden: Kitto, when you try to click on or select the object with the viewer... does it show up?

[12:11] Kitto Flora: 2 or 3 different problems then?

[12:11] Andrew Linden: there is a known viewer bug where the viewer actually knows the object is there (you can click on it) but it does not render

[12:11] Kitto Flora: Andrew - no

[12:11] Andrew Linden: hrm...

[12:11] Kitto Flora: Cant select it

[12:11] Kitto Flora: cant make it visible

[12:11] Kitto Flora: but its in Havok - you collide with it

[12:11] Duckie Dickins: Was it an old asset? I thought old assets that haven't been accessed in a long time got shuffled into a closet in the basement at Linden Lab and when you try to rez it the first time, they send a mole after it, dust it off and finally let it rez which was the cause for old items to be delayed when rezzed.

[12:12] Andrew Linden: ok still, this actually sounds like a known viewer bug

[12:12] Kitto Flora: Oh that one

[12:12] Andrew Linden: I think we fixed it in the "project interesting" viewer, although it was actually a bug in the release viewer

[12:12] Kitto Flora: Yeah - thats the 'bits and pieces dont show up'

[12:12] Kitto Flora: See em lots on track sections

[12:12] Andrew Linden: but we were fixing all "objects not showing up" bugs in the project interesting viewer

[12:13] Kitto Flora: I know the track is all there but bits are 'missing'

[12:13] Kitto Flora: you click edit where they should be and they appear

[12:13] Andrew Linden: btw Whirly, I think the project interesting viewer should have a project viewer available soon

[12:13] Andrew Linden: any day now

[12:14] Whirly Fizzle: OOOOh yay!

[12:14] Andrew Linden: right Kitto, there are two "objects not appearing" bugs in the release viewer, as I recall

[12:14] Andrew Linden: both fixed in project interesting

[12:14] Lexbot Sinister: Anything with " mesh sometimes apperaring, sometimes not?"

[12:15] Andrew Linden: ok that is all my news. Table is open.

[12:15] Andrew Linden: Lexbot, I can't remember if mesh was particularly affected by these bugs.

[12:15] Davido Chrome: Mesh usually appears for me, it might need a while to load though.

[12:15] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, when do you think you will add the cap I need for storm-68?

[12:15] JIRA-helper/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d:

#12ORM] As a Builder, I want that ability to set default permissions on creation of objects, clothing, scripts, notecards, etc. - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle: Isnt Monty working on making mesh more reliable to render?

[12:16] Andrew Linden: Ah right Jonathan. That was something I wanted to do in my copious spare time (on the side)

[12:16] Jonathan Yap: I know :)

[12:16] Andrew Linden: It shouldn't be too hard. I'll try to take an intial swing at it this week.

[12:16] Jonathan Yap: Thanks so much

[12:16] Jonathan Yap: It's the last little bit before this change can go out

[12:16] Andrew Linden: Ask me again next week.

[12:17] Kitto Flora: 'Bits not appearing' - I gaeve up caring about that problem - Others see stuff ok. Mostly. Maybe one day it will get fixed in Cool VL. I'll wait for that... maybe...

[12:17] Firey Indigo: can i ask a general question as a sim owner

[12:17] Davido Chrome: I have a question about Texture LOD.

[12:17] Simon Linden: go for it, Firey

[12:17] Andrew Linden: Go ahead and ask Firey.

[12:18] Firey Indigo: thanks have a huge group over 23 thousand and 500 ban list .. i am going nuts can it be raised PLEASE

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: lol, use an scripted db

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire: and cycle your bans

[12:18] Baker Linden: 500 on what ban list, Firey?

[12:18] Tori Handrick: we do that

[12:18] Firey Indigo: people

[12:18] Baker Linden: mute list you mean?

[12:19] Andrew Linden: Is that the estate ban list?

[12:19] Firey Indigo: its far to smal a number for the group yes

[12:19] Simon Linden: Most of our people lists like that have 500 limits

[12:19] Firey Indigo: we have to get rid of people causing trouble fast

[12:19] Firey Indigo: and we cant now

[12:19] Firey Indigo: without removing others

[12:20] Baker Linden: ohh, you mean can the ban list be raised, I got confused and thought you meant you couldn't see the list of group members

[12:20] Firey Indigo: lol no

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister: I have a question about worn mesh positioning, if there's time later.

[12:20] Simon Linden: Firey - what's a wild guess on how many people you would add per day or week or something? Whatever the size is, it will fill up ... but hopefully it can be made big enough to stay effective

[12:20] Firey Indigo: it could do with being in the thousands not hundreds

[12:20] Firey Indigo: can be anything from 20 to 50

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: Firey, in general, troublemakers use throwaway accounts.

[12:20] Tori Handrick: and also we have an appallng time with chat lag in group

[12:21] Davido Chrome: When I upload a low rez texture, 16*128 for example, it still gets scaled down in LOD change right away. Is there a good reason for this? It makes you want to make higher rez textures for one bit alpha things than would otherwise be needed.

[12:21] Firey Indigo: yes but would you like to go through all those people and check they are still active or not Andrew

[12:21] Andrew Linden: Firey, which ban list specifically? The estate ban list? Parcel ban list? some other list?

[12:21] Rex Cronon: what if u could have a unlimited list of banned avatars? would u guys pay 4 that?

[12:21] Firey Indigo: land and estate

[12:22] Firey Indigo: no i would not pay I pay enough now

[12:22] Andrew Linden: ok, so two lists: Land and Estate

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt: And, even if the size of the ban list was raised to 10 or 20 thousand, the ban list would still fill up, because troublemakers make alt after alt after alt.

[12:22] Firey Indigo: yes

[12:22] Davido Chrome: Are avatars banned from the whole grid autoremoved from local ban lists?

[12:22] Jenna Felton: perhaps there should not be a list of banned people stiked to a region/estate, but every avatar should carry a list of regions they was banned. Than you can potentially put every SL resident in a ban list. But every resident would be banned at last on 500 regions at same time

[12:22] Jonathan Yap: What is the performance impact on the server of having much larger ban lists?

[12:22] Firey Indigo: I dont know about you but i dont have time to do that

[12:22] Andrew Linden: Perhaps LL should automatically prune lists by removing accounts that have been terminated.

[12:22] Simon Linden: I doubt it, AlveKatt

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt: The most infamous forum bullies actually *brag* about having armies of alts they use for harassing people.

[12:22] Baker Linden: Davido, probably not, but I'm not 100% sure on that

[12:22] Firey Indigo: now that is a sensible idea

[12:22] Lexbot Sinister: I have an idea for a sollution to the large ban lists, but it goes together with what we talked about with Baker, so it might be better on thursday

[12:22] Davido Chrome: Simon, that would make sense.

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt: Andrew, I second that.

[12:23] Firey Indigo: terminated lists would help

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: @Andrew theres risk there

[12:23] Simon Linden: well, to loop around ... want to know why group chat is slow? it's a large list....

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: and that is accounts being unbanned later, no matter the offense

[12:23] Tori Handrick: here here simon

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: such as sim crashers and copybotters

[12:23] Kitto Flora: """ Andrew Linden: Perhaps LL should automatically prune lists by removing accounts that have been terminated.""" - Duh? They don't already?

[12:23] Andrew Linden: yes Lucia, some terminated accounts come back. Is that what you're talking about?

[12:23] Firey Indigo: We know Simon people pester us asking if they are banned because they cant chat

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire: I've seen it enough to keep peopel in a db and not worry abotu removing them later if they are not in search

[12:24] Tori Handrick: well we know that....sowhat do we do?

[12:24] Tori Handrick: we avtually lose members cos they cant chat

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt: I think LL could learn a thing or two from InnoGames w.r.t. account pruning.

[12:25] Andrew Linden: and then sort the candidate prunees by date of termination (or last login) and remove the oldest first

[12:25] Firey Indigo: its a big deal with most people and most groups

[12:25] Tori Handrick: we charge for people to join then they cant use group chat

[12:25] Firey Indigo: LL needs to think BIG :)

[12:25] Lexbot Sinister: each ban could be given a priority of 1-5, on severity and likelyness of the account returning. So 5 would be bans that stay forever, and 1 bans that can be removed on first cleanup. And as a land owner, you could sort the bans by priority, and clean the list of all 1'es, for an example.

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: I have 10000 active bans being cycled on demand (when agents enter a region) which is typically 20 - 30 bans a day. The ban times are 8640 minutes but I will later be goign to an offense/risk based time system.

[12:26] Firey Indigo: Lucy sounds great but i am not technical most of us are not

[12:26] Jonathan Yap: Here is an idea for a new feature: make some changes so you have to be X days old (specified by the group owner(s)) before you can join a group, that would keep throwaway accounts out to some degree

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: and this is an lsl db, heh, hard capped at 80000 capacity

[12:26] Duckie Dickins: Just fill the regions with ban bots. :D

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire: there are commercial ban systems availabel on mp too

[12:26] Davido Chrome: I am wondering, when on the Linden viewer there's no point in closing group chats, because they keep popping up. Are there maybe a lot of people that are logged in to the chat needlessly?

[12:27] Firey Indigo: Thats not a bad idea a lot of trouble comes from those under a month old

[12:27] Firey Indigo: What do you call needless?

[12:27] Simon Linden: That might slow things down a bit, Jonathan, or just open up a side market in older throw-away accounts

[12:27] Firey Indigo: the point is its social they love to chat

[12:27] Lexbot Sinister: There is already such market

[12:27] Kitto Flora: GO BACK to charging $5 for a new Av. That will make LL some legit $ and discourage the griefers

[12:27] Lexbot Sinister: Most beggar bots are from 2008

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle: Hacked old accounts cause the most problems these days >.<

[12:28] Firey Indigo: I truly think Free accounts are self defeating and most good games have a charge it gives people reason to stay

[12:28] Firey Indigo: they have money in it

[12:29] Simon Linden: so ... trying to think small (because that's the range of work that might get done) are there some tools or info from a ban list that would make it easier to manage it?

[12:29] Kitto Flora: Right on Firey

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt: Whirly, this brings me back to what I said earlier: LL needs to learn a few things about pruning inactive accounts. InnoGames (developers of Ikariam) has a nifty implementation for its games.

[12:29] Lexbot Sinister: I disagree Firey. When i first joined SL, there was a trial period and then you had to pay for an account. I left.

[12:29] Firey Indigo: well a bigger ban list would help

[12:29] Jonathan Yap: Simon: date banned and date last logged in

[12:29] Firey Indigo: and not having to check every person to see if they are active or not

[12:29] Firey Indigo: that would help

[12:29] Duckie Dickins: just replace group chat with IRC. That seems to scale well. :)

[12:29] Simon Linden: I wonder how ugly of a privacy issue that would be

[12:30] Davido Chrome: I am wondering, when on the Linden viewer there's no point in closing group chats, because they keep popping up. Are there maybe a lot of people that are logged in to the chat needlessly?

[12:30] Jonathan Yap: Duckie, they tried that but it didn't work

[12:30] Lexbot Sinister: it worked for eve online?

[12:30] Firey Indigo: people come here to socalise one reason for joining a large group is being able to chat

[12:30] Kitto Flora: Duckie - IRC is a goldmine for email address harvesters - I refused to use it for years now.

[12:30] Firey Indigo: to say you cant is daft

[12:31] Duckie Dickins: IRC has nothing to do with email

[12:31] Mona Eberhardt: Kitto, you *don't* have to declare your email in IRC.

[12:31] Tori Handrick: it defeats the object

[12:31] Jonathan Yap: Unless you are clever IRC exposes your IP

[12:32] Lexbot Sinister: So does Voice. So?

[12:32] Lexbot Sinister: and media streams.

[12:32] Andrew Linden: yes, any server to which you're sending lots of data will have to know your IP address

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: And media streams have been exploited by a well-known scamware/spyware "alt detection system" developer.

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt: For years now.

[12:32] Andrew Linden: if you're only sending a little bit of data you can route it through a proxy

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire: as well as illegal tpv's, heh

[12:33] Lexbot Sinister: and every website ever. IP can't be considered a huge secret. In SL you casn opt out of showing your IP, but if it ment better chat groups... *shrugs*

[12:33] Duckie Dickins: I've been using IRC since 89, a private linden IRC cluster would be safe. You could disable most of the commands that would cause privacy issues on your own servers.

[12:34] Mona Eberhardt: But at what cost, Duckie?

[12:34] Firey Indigo: Well i think a lot of people come here to socialise so anything that makes that easier to do is going to keep people here .. and thats the point

[12:34] Simon Linden: just fyi, practically speaking we're not going to be re-writing the chat system any time soon

[12:35] Susie Chaffe: Been away awhile, could I ask for a quick update on what the current major region crossing issues are?

[12:35] Lexbot Sinister: given up?

[12:35] Davido Chrome: Reposting: I am wondering, when on the Linden viewer there's no point in closing group chats, because they keep popping up. Are there maybe a lot of people that are logged in to the chat needlessly?

[12:35] Duckie Dickins: no cost really....people wouldn't realize they were on IRC if it replaced how group chat operated.

[12:35] Tori Handrick: at the end of the day ive spent 3yrs building up 23000 member group, thats not been easy , i dont expect to be answering daily complaints, from members not being able to use the facilities they have paid for

[12:35] Firey Indigo: smile ... i guessed somehow .. but it will have to be done sooner or later

[12:35] Yerra Tripsa: hello all

[12:35] Firey Indigo: better sooner

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: Would IRC scale any better though?

[12:35] Simon Linden: Susie - I've been fixing a couple of bugs with vehicle region crossings where you'd get denied when it should have been allowed

[12:35] Rex Cronon: hello

[12:35] Tori Handrick: much sooner

[12:35] Duckie Dickins: Yeah...not fixing a social aspect of your social gaming platform is like letting a wound fester if you ask me.

[12:35] Yerra Tripsa: hi Rex

[12:35] Kitto Flora: Susie: Did you want to know the issues? Or any fixes?

[12:36] Simon Linden: one is in the next update (tomorrow's RC) and the other _might_ go out next week

[12:36] Susie Chaffe: actually both.....

[12:36] MartinRJ Resident: from what I've been told, IRC doesn't scale well either for very large groups

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith: LL tyes a lot fo things together, chat as a part of it, IRC doesnt have the capibilities to to non chat things really

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt: And net splits have been legendary on many IRC networks.

[12:38] Kitto Flora: The main issue appears to be that ... When your client net traffic level is high when you cross a border (because theres lost of new scenery arriving) then some critical handshake with the new region fails, and you are left drifing on to 'infinity' with no connection to any sim.

[12:38] Kitto Flora: Looks like 'reliable UDP' is no longer reliable

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith: udp was never reliable :P

[12:38] Davido Chrome: When I use Linden viewer group chats always pop up when you log on. And if you closed them they would pop up soon again a few minutes later. So it seems that if you are a member of a group, you are automatically always logged in to the chat.

[12:38] MartinRJ Resident: never

[12:39] Firey Indigo: yes thats a problem for many

[12:39] Simon Linden: the crossings usually don't recover from that kind of failure at all

[12:39] Firey Indigo: if they can opt out

[12:39] Tori Handrick: yes we get that complaint oo

[12:39] Firey Indigo: it would help

[12:39] Susie Chaffe: did SVC-22 ever get addressed

[12:39] Kitto Flora: Phoenix - SL uses 'reliable UDP' - read the comms protocol

[12:39] Firey Indigo: not everyone wants to listen to all the chat

[12:40] Firey Indigo: if you had to opt in ..... that would cut the problem considerably

[12:40] Davido Chrome: I still get the bucking like a crazy horse on my bike. I wonder if it's related to that I use collision detection to make it fall faster when not touching ground.

[12:40] Simon Linden: it's UDP with some re-tries ... but with 20/20 hindsight it's probably worse than a dedicated TCP/IP channel

[12:40] Kitto Flora: Simnon - Indeed :)

[12:40] Tori Handrick: well group chat tends to be topical rather than typical....will never appeal to all

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle: If you close a group chat session it shouldn't re-open that session unless you reopen it yourself. Sometimes it does though but it doesn't appear to happen that often.

[12:40] TankMaster Finesmith: yeah tcp = more reliable (but more overhead)

[12:40] Firey Indigo: would make a massive difference if people could turn it off

[12:41] Simon Linden: yes Whirly -- when you close it, you're really wanting it to say quiet until something interesting comes along :P

[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith: lol

[12:41] Jonathan Yap: That could be a viewer only change, but better if there was a server change too.

[12:41] Rex Cronon: how would u know if something interesting comes up if u r not listening?

[12:42] Firey Indigo: those who want to chat would log in

[12:42] Firey Indigo: those who dont wont

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Can you mute group chats on TPVs but still get notices if you want.

[12:42] Simon Linden: IRC does that by tagging your name or key words

[12:42] Jonathan Yap: It would be a tickbox in the group floater panel

[12:42] Simon Linden: or a lot of IRC clients, I mean

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: However, that group mite setting has a habbot of not sticking

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: *habbit

[12:43] Firey Indigo: but it stops group chat and notices and is a pain to reset

[12:43] Davido Chrome: I have firestorm set to block all group chats unless I have opened them myself. The question is, am I still technically logged in to those chats serverside?

[12:43] Firey Indigo: needs to be simple tick box in communications

[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith: yes

[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith: it jusdt doesnt display the message to the UI

[12:43] Jonathan Yap: yes, all those chat message go to your viewer, which then drops them

[12:43] Duckie Dickins: I think that feature is busted in the beta viewer....I got one group chat muted and it still pops open.

[12:43] Firey Indigo: i have to go to Poole to send messages to my own group laugh

[12:43] Duckie Dickins: firestorm beta

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle: If youve mited a groups chat, if you open that groups chat, you unmute it btw.

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle: Same as IMing a muted avatar

[12:44] Tori Handrick: yeh we tp out to do work

[12:44] Tori Handrick: rediculous

[12:44] Davido Chrome: Then you should really be able to opt out of chats serverside, that might solve the chat lag problem!

[12:44] Jonathan Yap: It would reduce server load

[12:44] Firey Indigo: thats got to be good

[12:45] Duckie Dickins: I think the real issue is that there wasn't much planning for groups with 20K members. :P

[12:46] Ima Mechanique: heh of course not, when groups were created SL didn't have 20K members

[12:46] Duckie Dickins: you know....i pruned about 8000 people out of a group once who hadn't logged in the last probably should look into that.

[12:46] Firey Indigo: now they do and more

[12:46] Firey Indigo: Duckie i have better things to do frankly and i have tried over a thousand gone

[12:47] Tori Handrick: but the point is surely that now there are!!!

[12:47] Firey Indigo: but i do have a rl and sl

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire: theres an autooption, at least for everyone role "Remove agents that haven't logged on in # years" heh

[12:47] Ima Mechanique: *sigh* there was a time when we struggled to get 3K concurrent users. And it crashed the grid when it happened ;-)

[12:47] Firey Indigo: two years is a good option for me

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire: Simon, what regions on Aditi have the new grey goo fence changes and sat on temp prim autoreturn time changes?

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire: I want to test stuffs, lol

[12:49] Simon Linden: so if you had a magic button to press that said "remove anyone from this group (or ban list) that hasn't logged in for X days" that would solve everything? :P

[12:49] Firey Indigo: no but it would help to reduce them

[12:49] Firey Indigo: and make that a year simone

[12:49] Firey Indigo: Simon

[12:49] Andrew Linden: I was thinking about something like that too. Some sort of auto-culling of groups, but with a manual trigger.

[12:49] Davido Chrome: OR 2

[12:49] Siwo Resident: if I may... I've a LSL question... why all functions to apply textures (llSetTexture, PRIM_TEXTURE...) require only full-perm textures? I make textures for (no-modify) planes and it is pretty unpleasant when I must give my textures away with full rights so they can work with applier script the planes use. I've seen my textures being resold so many times it even isn't funny anymore.

[12:49] Firey Indigo: same with bann lists

[12:50] Firey Indigo: auto or manual

[12:50] Simon Linden: a few choices would probably be needed ... we'll never have agreement on the right length

[12:50] Baker Linden: I toyed around with that thought already too -- a button to help auto-prune group lists

[12:50] Baker Linden: considering the biggest SL group has over 100k members

[12:50] Duckie Dickins: well pruning 8000 people did help the group chat issue for the group I did that with

[12:50] Firey Indigo: well we will be 25 thousand in the new year

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: Samm goups can get bad chatlag too though

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: *small groups

[12:50] Firey Indigo: and its getting to be a bigger and bigger problem

[12:51] Jonathan Yap: Have a box which the user can fill in for the "X number of days" value

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire: yeah, certain small groups seem to have chat lag versus bigger ones, its all in the group key from what I was told, lol

[12:51] Baker Linden: I imagine the small groups experience lag are a direct result of the fact that we have huge groups also chatting on the same server

[12:51] Tori Handrick: i may be wrong but there seems to be alot of computor planners here today...whereas firey and i are not techies and actually live in SL...its a frustrating place to be at times

[12:51] Firey Indigo: that makes sense :)

[12:51] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah. Conference IMs are bad too!

[12:51] Baker Linden: internet traffic is internet traffic

[12:52] Firey Indigo: Laugh were so not Techies we have trouble understanding sculpts

[12:52] Firey Indigo: but were the average user

[12:52] Baker Linden: I have trouble understanding sculpts too :)

[12:52] Davido Chrome: But still, Lindens, aren't there a lot of people that are needlessly logged in to the chats?

[12:52] Tori Handrick: lolol...i think we can forget conference ims...we dont have a chance lolol

[12:52] Firey Indigo: lol glad were not alone

[12:52] Simon Linden: there's a mix Firey but the Lindens here are server developers, so we stick mostly to technical solutions to problems

[12:52] Jonathan Yap: I think a few people here would like to see a new UG for Estate Managers

[12:52] Baker Linden: Davido, I'd imagine there are.

[12:52] Firey Indigo: I guess Simon, Tori and i look for social solutions

[12:53] Rex Cronon: i have no troubles with sculpts. lol

[12:53] Firey Indigo: big head :)

[12:53] Tori Handrick: whats a sculpt?

[12:53] Ima Mechanique: [12:49] Seewo (siwo): if I may... I've a LSL question... why all functions to apply textures (llSetTexture, PRIM_TEXTURE...) require only full-perm textures? I make textures for (no-modify) planes and it is pretty unpleasant when I must give my textures away with full rights so they can work with applier script the planes use. I've seen my textures being resold so many times it even isn't funny anymore.

[12:53] Tori Handrick: cough

[12:53] Davido Chrome: I bet you could drastically reduce the size of the group chat lists if you could opt out of the chat serverside for your session.

[12:53] Firey Indigo: can it be done your the techies

[12:54] Andrew Linden: Siwo, is there such a limit to llSetTexture()? I thought it would just work for any valid texture asset_id... even if you don't actually own said texture in your inventory.

[12:54] Firey Indigo: the opt out button would be great

[12:54] MartinRJ Resident: there isn't if you use a UUID

[12:54] Ima Mechanique: no Andrew, it has to be full perms now. Has been that way for some time

[12:54] Siwo Resident: it works only with texture uid or full-perm texture if is it in objects content

[12:54] Davido Chrome: Basically, if you close a group chat you get logged out until you open it again.

[12:55] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle: You don't need to give out your textures though, just the UUIDs

[12:55] Yuzuru Jewell: I heard the aircraft issue of BUG-4389. Please check It occurs at Blake Sea - Cannonade and Honah Lee Surf.

[12:56] Yuzuru Jewell: It occurs only mono script.

[12:56] Siwo Resident: giving away uids is basically the same as textures

[12:56] Jenna Felton: are the group chat messages sent to the special server? I think so. Perhaps it is better to outsource that in this case, group chat is sent then to the sim you are and the sim delivers the chat to the sims of logged into group members

[12:56] Andrew Linden: hrm... I don't see the permission check in the code yet

[12:57] Siwo Resident: hm

[12:57] Davido Chrome: Honestly, it would make more sense if you had a setting to autologin in the viewer on the chats you want, and not log in at all on others unless you open them yourself.

[12:57] Jonathan Yap:

[12:57] Duckie Dickins: Yeah....some groups I only want notices.

[12:57] Baker Linden: hahaha

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle: \o/

[12:57] Object/f5c7ade0-ae12-4cce-95b1-bed4b0fbb603: Hello, Avatar!

[12:57] Jenna Felton: /me laugs

[12:58] Davido Chrome: Because as it is now, I am lagging down 38 chats that I am not using.

[12:59] Jonathan Yap: But if there are no chats in those 38 groups there is no lag

[12:59] Lexbot Sinister: IRC has always been Opt In, why the chat rooms never reach the size of several thousands, either

[12:59] Jonathan Yap: The chat servers don't even have links set up

[12:59] Jonathan Yap:

[12:59] MartinRJ Resident: I strongly agree with Davido

[12:59] Davido Chrome: Well, yeah. But some of the chats that I am apparantly logged into but not have open is FS support and Builders brewery, and those are always busy.

[13:00] Lexbot Sinister: Maybe it would be a better indicator to show instead somehow that a chat group is being active, and then give the option to join it?

[13:00] MartinRJ Resident: you should have a checkbox to auto-opt-in to group chats

[13:00] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Jonathan Yap: For those who cannot see, svc-2820 is the jira for muting group IMs

[13:01] MartinRJ Resident: like "Receive group notices" "Show in my profile" - an additional checkbox "participate in chat automatically"

[13:01] Siwo Resident: nvm then...

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: SVC is public

[13:01] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I just don't see that permissions thing Siwo.

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister: So instead of "automatically jshow chat" have "automatically show which chats are active"

[13:01] Jonathan Yap: Whirly, I had to log into jira to see that entry

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: ahhh. Im always logged in ROFL

[13:02] MartinRJ Resident: I don't think you can see anything without being logged in

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah, you cant

[13:02] MartinRJ Resident: maybe to keep robots out

[13:03] Jonathan Yap: Thank you everybody

[13:03] Ima Mechanique: have to run. Bye all

[13:03] Davido Chrome: Thank you!

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt: Thanks, Lindens.

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle: Ty Lindens

[13:03] Rex Cronon: tc all those leaving

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: tc simon

[13:03] Rex Cronon: i guess group meeting over?

[13:03] Tori Handrick: interesting thank you

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: tc baker

[13:03] Baker Linden: tc everyone

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: yes rex


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