User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2008 12 03

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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[7:59] WolfPup Lowenhar: i wonder if babbage will be here this week :)

[7:59] Siobhan McCallen: guess we'll find out

[7:59] Imaze Rhiano: it was thanksgiving day last week

[8:00] Fake Fitzgerald: hello

[8:00] Twisted Laws: hello

[8:00] Siobhan McCallen: hiya

[8:03] Twisted Laws: babbage isn't logged on yet again :(

[8:04] Siobhan McCallen: i'm in no hurry. this is a pretty place.

[8:05] Twisted Laws: yeah, till we wait until 9 again :(

[8:07] Siobhan McCallen: he still not logged on?

[8:07] Twisted Laws: no

[8:07] Siobhan McCallen: I'm gonna pop over to Q's office, see if he's there

[8:07] Twisted Laws: cool

[8:11] WolfPup Lowenhar: there he is

[8:11] WolfPup Lowenhar: morning babbage

[8:11] Babbage Linden: hi everyone

[8:11] Fake Fitzgerald: hi babbage

[8:11] Chaley May: hi

[8:11] Twisted Laws: hi

[8:11] Babbage Linden: sorry i didn't make it last week

[8:12] Babbage Linden: let me ping the groups

[8:14] Babbage Linden: done

[8:14] Babbage Linden: let's give people a couple of minutes to turn up

[8:14] Ayumi Cassini: hello :)

[8:14] Chaley May: hi :)

[8:15] Babbage Linden: ok, let's get going

[8:15] Babbage Linden: we've been fixing quite a few scripting issues this week

[8:15] Babbage Linden: let me find them

[8:16] Babbage Linden: one fix was to our crash handling

[8:17] Babbage Linden: in some cases we couldn't register our error thread with mono during crashes

[8:17] Babbage Linden: which meant that emergency simstate saves would fail

[8:17] Babbage Linden: we now register the error thread on startup

[8:17] Babbage Linden: so there should be fewer crashes that fail to save a simstate and cause content loss

[8:18] Babbage Linden: it should also help us get better error reports

[8:18] Babbage Linden: as we'll get the core and callstack from the original problem

[8:18] Babbage Linden: instead of the callstack from the nested failure to register the thread with mono

[8:18] Chaley May: ive only ever had content gain :)

[8:18] Babbage Linden: so that's a big fix, but not a user visible one

[8:18] Babbage Linden: we've also fixed a problem with mono script time reporting

[8:19] Twisted Laws: fixes any visible issues?

[8:19] Babbage Linden: which was being reported as 0 in the estate top scripts tool

[8:19] Mipasia Ellison: sorry Cale

[8:19] Twisted Laws: does avatar script times appear anywhere ?

[8:20] Twisted Laws: like from huds or attachments?

[8:20] Babbage Linden: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2755

[8:21] Imaze Rhiano: Twisted: I don't think that estate tools allow to report avatar/hud scripts

[8:22] Babbage Linden: we've also fixed a problem with state changes to the current state causing infinite looping when compiled to mono

[8:22] Babbage Linden: i'm trying to find the jira now

[8:23] Babbage Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3379

[8:23] Babbage Linden: and a problem with some scripts causing high time dilation

[8:25] Babbage Linden: and Mono allows dividing a vector by 0.0 to create NaNs

[8:25] Babbage Linden: i think that's all of them

[8:25] Babbage Linden: most will be available in server 1.5.2

[8:26] Babbage Linden: which should roll out soon

[8:26] Babbage Linden: some will be in server 1.26 which will be after christmas

[8:26] Babbage Linden: there are a few other issues that we're working on too

[8:26] Babbage Linden: which will probably get in to 1.26

[8:26] Babbage Linden: so, that's what we've been up to

[8:27] Babbage Linden: is there anything anyone would like to talk about today?

[8:27] Imaze Rhiano: what about script memory limits?

[8:27] Babbage Linden: the code to measure script memory is now in QA

[8:27] Babbage Linden: and will probably be in 1.26

[8:27] Babbage Linden: we'll be working on the UI to display the currently used script resources early next year

[8:27] Babbage Linden: and will measure script use across the grid then

[8:28] Myla Moody: i am curious to know if the "list data = (data=[]) + data + newdata" trick is still necessary for mono compiled scripts, to conserve memory :)

[8:28] Babbage Linden: then we can talk about what the script limits will be

[8:28] Babbage Linden: and you'll be able to use the UI changes to find out whether you'll be affected

[8:28] Imaze Rhiano: Myla - it is not necessary - at least it seems to be so...

[8:28] Babbage Linden: the limits are unlikely to be enforced on full regions until the middle of next year

[8:29] Twisted Laws: interested in "a problem with some scripts causing high time dilation" and trying to find script time for an avatar that comes in a sim and seems to slow sim down

[8:29] Babbage Linden: myla, lists are now being implemented as ArrayLists when compiled to CLI

[8:29] Babbage Linden: they grow in a doubling manner

[8:30] Babbage Linden: when they fill they double

[8:30] Babbage Linden: so you'll see memory usage change in a non-linear way

[8:30] Babbage Linden: in lumps

[8:30] Babbage Linden: when using lists with scripts compiled to CIL

[8:31] Babbage Linden: using the shortcut syntax probably won't help

[8:31] Mephistopheles Thalheimer: any moves to a better sort than bubblesort?

[8:31] WolfPup Lowenhar: so cli is going to be a new part of the scripting resources availble to people?

[8:31] Babbage Linden: and will just end up newing an ArrayList that has to be GCed again

[8:31] Imaze Rhiano: any news about C#... you did have prototype version from it...

[8:31] Babbage Linden: I'm trying to call the 2 scripting engines LSO and CIL now

[8:31] Babbage Linden: after the 2 bytecode formats

[8:32] Babbage Linden: instead of original and mono

[8:32] Babbage Linden: which was a bit unweildy

[8:32] WolfPup Lowenhar: ok

[8:32] Babbage Linden: we have a C# prototype which we've been using internally

[8:33] Babbage Linden: we're waiting on the mono metadata verifier to be complete before we put it in to production

[8:33] Babbage Linden: that is due to be complete by the end of Q1

[8:33] Babbage Linden: so hopefully we will start working on C# support in Q2 or Q3

[8:33] Babbage Linden: but that hasn't been decided yet

[8:34] Babbage Linden: we're also talking about making our interface public before then

[8:34] Babbage Linden: so that we can gather feedback on it

[8:34] Babbage Linden: and so OpenSim can work on implementing a compatible interface

[8:34] Babbage Linden: (they don't support script sandboxing, so don't need to wait for the mono metadata verifier)

[8:35] Babbage Linden: i've been talking to adam and melanie and they're both keen on agreeing on a compatible interface

[8:35] Hermit Barber: Emilie mutters a question about snakes and such. Having discovered that she has an affinity for pythons.

[8:35] Mephistopheles Thalheimer: Any furtherance on SVC-2988 to implement a better sort?

[8:36] Babbage Linden: we've also been experimenting with ironpython on the viewer

[8:36] Hermit Barber: :-))))))))))))))))))!

[8:36] Babbage Linden: as a possible platform for scripting for qa that could eventually become viewer scripting

[8:36] WolfPup Lowenhar: script sandboxing is some thing i keep hearing about and was wondering what it is

[8:37] Babbage Linden: python is a lot harder to sandbox than c# though

[8:37] Babbage Linden: as it's more dynamic

[8:37] Babbage Linden: and later versions of ironpython do a lot of code generation at runtime

[8:37] Babbage Linden: so, python is further off than c#

[8:37] Babbage Linden: if we ever support it

[8:38] Imaze Rhiano: script sandboxing: script is running in sandbox where it can't harm other scripts or sim

[8:38] Hermit Barber: When we can have a dialog between server and client, all sorts of interesting things become possssssible. Which naturally leads to the question whether Babbage has any idea if/when the webserver on a prim is likely to make it across the water from the Beta to the production grid?

[8:38] Hermit Barber: Python does have a native sandbox mode though.

[8:38] Babbage Linden: i'm going to have a look at the status of http in

[8:39] Babbage Linden: kelly has been off work, so it hasn't progressed as quickly as i'd like

[8:39] WolfPup Lowenhar: as a RL computer tech i see issues relating to the pyton system

[8:39] Periapse Linden: I would guess we can get http into trunk in January, but then it likely won't deploy until February

[8:39] Babbage Linden: we fixed the issue with http out not transcoding correctly

[8:39] Babbage Linden: which was the biggest problem with http in

[8:39] Mephistopheles Thalheimer: Any furtherance on SVC-2988 to implement a better sort?

[8:39] Hermit Barber: Congrats

[8:40] Babbage Linden: i don't know any plans to improve sorting

[8:42] Imaze Rhiano: Any news about user created libraries?

[8:42] Babbage Linden: not much news imaze

[8:42] Babbage Linden: it's on the roadmap

[8:42] Babbage Linden: but won't happen before c#

[8:43] Babbage Linden: which won't happen before q2

[8:43] Hermit Barber: Mephistopheles: Send youir data to an external server, sort it as you would, and return a list index to unscramble it. Even with all the communications latency it is likely to be faster, take fewer resources and ultimately avoid any "abusive" script tarpits than anything you can do in world. :-)

[8:43] Imaze Rhiano: any plans to provide better performance counters (beyond memory counters) in future? (Like how many cycles scripts in your attachments/parcel are using)

[8:45] Babbage Linden: imaze, yes, ultimately we'd like to pool cpu cycles using the resource pools

[8:45] Babbage Linden: but that will likely come after memory limits

[8:45] Babbage Linden: as unlimited memory can result in swapping which reduces the performance of the whole host

[8:46] Babbage Linden: whereas cpu time spent on scripts is limited, although rationed unfairly

[8:46] Babbage Linden: so it's a lower priority

[8:47] Imaze Rhiano: Any plans about allowing multiple media textures (like multiple html textures) and/or possible remote desktop connection (like in one another virtual world)?

[8:49] Babbage Linden: imaze, lots of plans in those areas

[8:49] Babbage Linden: but i don't know where they are in the pipeline

[8:50] Myla Moody: what is your preferred salad dressing, if any? :)

[8:51] Babbage Linden: french

[8:51] Myla Moody: :)

[8:51] Molly Montale makes note

[8:52] Myla Moody: have there been any issues with the land_collision event being triggered above ground, after a teleport?

[8:53] Babbage Linden: i haven't heard of any myla

[8:53] Babbage Linden: if you've had problems please look in jira

[8:53] Babbage Linden: and file an issue if you can't find a matching one

[8:54] Myla Moody: thank you :)

[8:54] Babbage Linden: ok, we're coming to the end of the hour

[8:54] Babbage Linden: any last questions or thoughts?

[8:54] Cale Flanagan: are there also periapse bears?

[8:54] Larissa Vacano: lol

[8:55] Hermit Barber: Emilie sings her "Song to be sung whenever meeting a Linden." Synchronized MIDI streams to a synthesizer along with triggers for midi notes would transform the entire nature of interaction and music in this world - and would be so easy for somebody smart to implement.

[8:55] Hermit Barber: Bears are always good.

[8:55] Periapse Linden: my bear is free to copy on my home in beaumont

[8:55] Cale Flanagan: ok:)

[8:55] Periapse Linden: look for the hill with the observatory dome. The bear is on the open platform underneath

[8:55] Larissa Vacano: thank you babbage for taking the time

[8:56] Babbage Linden: np

[8:56] Myla Moody: yes, thank you :)

[8:56] Imaze Rhiano: thank you

[8:56] Babbage Linden: oh, hi peri, i didn't see you there

[8:56] WolfPup Lowenhar: i have one problem that has creaped over from installing the SLim viewer

[8:56] Periapse Linden: yo, Babbage

[8:56] Myla Moody: he came for the free food :)

[8:56] Larissa Vacano: he was sneaking behind me 10 minutes ago ;-)

[8:56] Periapse Linden: always

[8:56] Babbage Linden: ok, i'll see you all next week then

[8:56] Larissa Vacano: okay

[8:56] Babbage Linden: thanks for coming everyone

[8:56] Myla Moody: take care :)

[8:56] Ayumi Cassini: see you

[8:57] Babbage Linden: bye!

[8:57] Larissa Vacano: take care bye bye

[8:57] Twisted Laws: bye, thanks

[8:57] Periapse Linden: bye all

[8:57] Fake Fitzgerald: thanks , bye

[8:57] Imaze Rhiano: bye

[8:57] WolfPup Lowenhar: tc babbage

[8:57] Hermit Barber: Babbage, it is nice meetiong Lindens that are not hiding :-)