User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2009 10 21

Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[3:00]	Hypatia Callisto nods at this as I use wifi :D
[3:00]	Babbage Linden:	so, last week we shipped the fixes i made to close a content theft exploit
[3:00]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I haven't had any problems with it on linux, other than my laptop having a gma965 in it. >_>
[3:00]	Babbage Linden:	hopefully you didn't notice
[3:01]	Imaze Rhiano:	and this week you have finally decided how much memory we are allowed to us? :P
[3:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage, we've just spent the last half day talking about this. And to say there's a sense of extreme depression is an understatement -- https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy
[3:01]	Babbage Linden:	this week we're working on deciding how much memory to allow
[3:01]	LSL Scientist:	did you fiddle with physics? some stuff dont behave like month ago
[3:01]	Babbage Linden:	;-)
[3:01]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Blukitty cuts to the chase!
[3:02]	Babbage Linden:	let me have a look at the link
[3:02]	Babbage Linden:	as far as i know there have been no changes to physics recently
[3:02]	LSL Scientist:	okies
[3:02]	Hypatia Callisto:	script limits make me happy :D
[3:03]	Imaze Rhiano:	so can you give any numbers about limits? ... so that we can run around and go to panic mode :P
[3:03]	Babbage Linden:	i haven't seen the blog post morgaine, i'll look at it offline as it looks big
[3:03]	Babbage Linden:	and i don't want to lose time here
[3:04]	Babbage Linden:	so, script limits numbers
[3:04]	Babbage Linden:	xan has done another pass on the analysis
[3:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyn's post is very short. The blog response may consume more bits than accounted for in cosmology though.
[3:04]	Babbage Linden:	as i couldn't believe the attachment numbers
[3:04]	LSL Scientist:	yea, script limits sure can kill SL, i already have started to create array of ALT's to follow me so together they can maybe make one gadget work normally :P
[3:05]	Babbage Linden:	but it turns out they were mostly correct
[3:05]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Lol, believe it. There are some really dumb things we have to do to work around some language deficiencies. <_<
[3:05]	Babbage Linden:	at the 99th percentile it looks like avatars are using 10MB of scripts for attachments
[3:06]	Imaze Rhiano:	ouch
[3:06]	Babbage Linden:	while at the 99th percentile entire regions are only using 65MB for parcel and vehicle scripts
[3:06]	Babbage Linden:	so, it looks like attachments are our biggest problem
[3:06]	Bogac Aeghin:	hi
[3:06]	LSL Scientist:	mem is cheap *sends 20L to governor linden*
[3:06]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Resizers. >_> Primparams delays. <_<
[3:06]	Imaze Rhiano:	HUDs
[3:06]	lonetorus Habilis:	so, the more script functions that can be offloaded to the viewer the better
[3:06]	Kaluura Boa:	llSetLinkText()...
[3:07]	Babbage Linden:	if we wanted to support this usage on a full region with 40 avatars
[3:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	What's the typical total amount of memory available to scripts on a sim?
[3:07]	Babbage Linden:	we'd need to budget 465MB of the 800MB we want a simulator to consume to scripts
[3:07]	Babbage Linden:	so, the next questions are:
[3:08]	Babbage Linden:	1) is this possible? Karel is currently doing work on simulator profiling to find out what reasonable memory numbers are for other subsystems, Xan is crunching memory footprint minus script usage for all the regions on the grid
[3:09]	Babbage Linden:	Xan's distribution is likely to show some regions with very high memory usage at the top end, even minus scripts
[3:09]	Babbage Linden:	where regions are using lots of physics for example
[3:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: "full region with 40 avatars"? 5 years ago we had full regions with 80 avatars. Negative scalability with population?
[3:09]	LSL Scientist:	who is fixing LSL so we dont need piles of sub scripts to beat silly design flaws?
[3:09]	Liandrapedia: There were no results matching the query.
[3:10]	Babbage Linden:	so, I'd like to pick a number that allows for 95+ percent of current usage and will run on 95+ percent of simulators without pushing their usage over 800MB
[3:10]	Bogac Aeghin:	mainland regions can only hold 40 avatars Morgaine :)
[3:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bogac: precisely.
[3:10]	Babbage Linden:	the higher we make the limit, the fewer residents will be affected, but the more sims will be pushed over 800MB at that usage
[3:11]	Liandra Ceawlin:	At the risk of being annoying and beating the proverbial dead horse, I'd bet you that 80-90% of the attachment bloat you are seeing results from cheesy but unavoidable workarounds for the fugly delays. >_> I think fixing that would net you a lot of reduction in silliness.
[3:11]	Babbage Linden:	so, we're looking for a sweet spot that trades off the 2 goals
[3:11]	Babbage Linden:	Liandra, right
[3:11]	Latif Khalifa:	breaking 5% of content and 5% of sim on scale of second life is huge
[3:11]	Dirk Talamasca:	It certainly seems that we are seeing a lot less bang for the buck than we saw previously
[3:11]	Babbage Linden:	2) find out why people are using huge numbers of scripts on attachments and provide ways to avoid the need for that number of scripts
[3:12]	Babbage Linden:	for example, by adding support for LSL functions that operate on entire link sets
[3:12]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, it's a known fact, no need for much finding out
[3:12]	Latif Khalifa:	we've been asking for it for years
[3:12]	Nock Forager:	I like 2) :)
[3:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Surely the right approach is to look at scripts, find out why scripts writers are using large numbers of them to achieve a simple task, and provide a native LSL facility to achieve it in one script, no?
[3:12]	Babbage Linden:	morgaine, that's what i'm saying
[3:12]	Babbage Linden:	as 2
[3:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cool, overlap with wha you wrote.
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	heh
[3:13]	Morgaine Dinova nods
[3:13]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I can say with confidence that most all of my cheese comes from needing to set different prim params on many different prims at the same time.
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	ok, good
[3:13]	Dirk Talamasca:	People have latger numbers of scripts because content creators are choosing to make hair, clothing and other items only modifiable via scripting in hopes that their work will not be ripped as easily.
[3:13]	lonetorus Habilis:	morg, my observations have been that sims currently wont hold much more than 40 avatars, before lagging out completely
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	ok, so I should probably send a survey out to the scripters mailing list
[3:13]	Hypatia Callisto:	sometimes they do that to deal with content breakage too
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	to ask what we can do to make scripting more efficient
[3:13]	Babbage Linden:	and why you find the need to use more scripts than you'd like
[3:14]	Babbage Linden:	the linkset functions look like a definite win
[3:14]	Latif Khalifa:	there is a jira about scripting low hanging fruit,you should browse it
[3:14]	Latif Khalifa:	a lot of feedback on jira
[3:14]	Babbage Linden:	the other thing i'd like to add is methods for reserving more memory for mono scripts
[3:14]	Babbage Linden:	so you don't have to split scripts apart when they get to 16/64K
[3:14]	Babbage Linden:	but it looks like we'll have to wait for the mono upgrade for that
[3:15]	Dirk Talamasca:	The flight altitude restriction pretty much has every avie in SL wearing at least one scripted attachment to overcome that limitation.
[3:15]	Babbage Linden:	so we get .NET 2 and support for version tolerant serialization
[3:15]	Babbage Linden has very few attachment scripts, but i'm mostly a ground dweller
[3:15]	lonetorus Habilis:	another script hog is the AO's
[3:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	lone: I doubt that LL is going to deal with sim avatar numbers scalability until competition wipes them off the map, since Zero did say they had no intention of scaling that, about a year and a half ago, and we've seen no progress on such scaling. So yeah.
[3:16]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Emerald fixes the cheesy AO problem pretty well. <_<
[3:16]	Babbage Linden:	so, on the script limits front: xan is doing more analysis, i'd like to do a survey to find out what we can do to make scripting more efficient when we introduce limits
[3:16]	Latif Khalifa:	while it's still legal to use.. ;)
[3:16]	Imaze Rhiano:	how is UI for memory usage coming together? when we can see our memory usage in parcel / attachments?
[3:16]	lonetorus Habilis:	morg, though if attachment script usage is lowered/limited then a region might hold more ppl again?
[3:17]	Babbage Linden:	if you could chuck jiras in text for low hanging fruit and effeciency jiras that would be great
[3:17]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Where do we sign up for this survey? :P Lol.
[3:17]	Hypatia Callisto:	and what about shunting some stuff off to the client
[3:17]	LSL Scientist:	emeral is just one persons idea of AO, scripted AO's have loads more different versions to choose from
[3:17]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes, where is the signup to the scripters mail list?
[3:17]	Babbage Linden:	liandra, i need to make one, or ask one of the PMs to set it up
[3:17]	Liandrapedia: (No article found.)
[3:17]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbagem they already exist, and you got them here several times
[3:17]	Babbage Linden:	lontorus, if we can wean people off huge amounts of attached scripts a lot of things would improve
[3:18]	Liandra Ceawlin:	wiki off
[3:18]	Babbage Linden:	teleports would succeed more often without timing out
[3:18]	Hypatia Callisto:	seems like AO is one of those things that should be in the client
[3:18]	Babbage Linden:	sims wouldn't freeze rezzing tons of scripts when people arrive
[3:18]	Becky Pippen:	you're talking about this one, right? https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/secondlifescripters
[3:18]	Babbage Linden:	(which i've also been looking at this week)
[3:19]	Babbage Linden:	if you could give me more sim freeze inducing objects that would be great
[3:19]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Oh, I forgot about that list.... I never get any mail on it. >_>
[3:19]	lonetorus Habilis:	lsl, im sure Skills Hak is open to suggestions to improve her emerald AO code if you have any specific ideas, or better yet, make a patch
[3:19]	Babbage Linden:	i've been experimenting with some of the objects you gave me and they have been very helpful
[3:19]	Babbage Linden:	part of the lag is caused by mono-scheduling issues
[3:19]	LSL Scientist:	will Skills make version of every AO seller in SL?
[3:20]	Babbage Linden:	which we already have fixes for
[3:20]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Nah, you just take out the notecard and animations and put them in a folder, assign the notecard to the AO, and it magically works.
[3:20]	Hypatia Callisto:	I dont buy AOs. I buy animations
[3:20]	Babbage Linden:	some of it is caused by script verification
[3:20]	Babbage Linden:	and i'm looking in to the lag caused by derez
[3:20]	Hypatia Callisto:	and make a notecard for ZHAO. I could care less about premade AOs anymore
[3:20]	LSL Scientist:	and im too lazy to type anything to notecards, so i use nice scripted click click configurable AO
[3:21]	Babbage Linden:	i think the verification and derez problems need to be fixed by threading rez and derez
[3:21]	Babbage Linden:	which is going to be a bigger project
[3:21]	Imaze Rhiano:	how is UI for memory usage coming together? when we can see our memory usage in parcel / attachments?
[3:21]	lonetorus Habilis:	babbage i have a box for memory exhausting sims if you are interested? (box with thousands of mono scripts all using 64kb mem)
[3:21]	Hypatia Callisto:	the client could be a click click configurable AO
[3:21]	Babbage Linden:	imaze, the ui design is coming together
[3:22]	Hypatia Callisto:	and you will save lag on the sim
[3:22]	Babbage Linden:	the front end engineers are very busy at the moment though
[3:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	lone: that would be a cool load tester for Opensim too
[3:22]	Dirk Talamasca:	And there is no reason those cannot still exist but having an AO built into the client certainly will go a long way to reducing script load for those that choose to use it which more than likely will be the majority
[3:22]	Babbage Linden:	so, we may not get the script limits ui in to the next viewer release
[3:22]	LSL Scientist:	everything could be in client, but scripted toys give us more ritch enviroment, more variation
[3:22]	Liandra Ceawlin:	So are there any changes to the expected enforcement schedule and all that, since last time?
[3:22]	Hypatia Callisto:	I do my best to not wear a ton of scripts when I am dealing with events and a couple of dozen avatars
[3:23]	Babbage Linden:	but, that would give us time to add some of the script efficiency improvements at the same time
[3:23]	Babbage Linden:	we will still make sure we leave at least 6 months between being able to see limits and enforcing them
[3:23]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Nods.
[3:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	We're forgetting Cyn's little note. In a while, there may be no more fancy open clients with scripted AO.
[3:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	lsl, thats where the emerald lsl bridge comes into play, so you can use some of the information availbale in the client, so you can ahve the emerald ao interact with your additional ao requirements in a attachment, overall its still less resoures used on the sim
[3:24]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Well, if that's the case there sill weill be on Opensim, and I'll be using it there, lol.
[3:25]	Liandra Ceawlin:	*still will, too.
[3:25]	lonetorus Habilis:	cyns note: http://pastebin.ca/1634472
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	in other news we have a couple of good candidates in the pipeline for the c# scripting team that i'm very excited about
[3:26]	Liandra Ceawlin:	\o/
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	and i've started looking in to the changes we'll need to make to support c#
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	so that is still on course to start early next year
[3:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	ah, andrew said there where more devs being hired
[3:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	that great news imo
[3:26]	Hypatia Callisto:	\o/
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	yes, lots of dev posts at the moment
[3:26]	Babbage Linden:	tell your friends ;-)
[3:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	hire emerald dev team ;)
[3:27]	LSL Scientist:	LSL to client bridge comes usefull when it is identical in every client
[3:27]	Latif Khalifa:	linden lab is geohraphically challenged when it comes to hiring ;)
[3:27]	Dirk Talamasca:	Somewhere along the way someone forgot that the things you invest your time and money in should be fun and fruitful.
[3:27]	Liandra Ceawlin thinks about trying to reiterate the necessity of fixing script delays, or C# scripts will be just as cheesy as the current LSL ones, but then decides to try to not be annoying. >_>
[3:27]	Babbage Linden:	i'll have to look at the emerald client bridge
[3:28]	Dirk Talamasca:	I heard that Latif
[3:28]	Babbage Linden:	it sounds similar to what i'd like to build for client side scripting
[3:28]	lonetorus Habilis:	latif, brighton is not that far away, and i should think that we have pretty good visa application paths
[3:28]	Hypatia Callisto:	client side scripting \o/
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	liandra, at some point in the glorious future, i'd like to make script delays optional for all calls that don't add load to external systems
[3:29]	Liandra Ceawlin:	We've got lua in emerald, but it is very, very painful to hook it into all the places that it needs to hook into. :<
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	you may have noticed that http calls use throttles as they induce external load
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	but other LSL calls, that just use simulator CPU shouldn't be throttled
[3:29]	Babbage Linden:	as scripts are already timesliced
[3:29]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Amen. :P
[3:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	thats another great source for ppl splitting scripts and working around the delays
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	i don't care whether you spend your time slice setting parameters or calculating primes
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	exactly
[3:30]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Do you consider changing textures on a prim to be external load?
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	but, we will have to make the delays optional, to avoid breaking scripts that rely on them
[3:30]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Since the viewer has to fetch new assets?
[3:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	*nods*
[3:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	Easy to get into the UK. Standard cavity searches, DNA checks up to 10 generations back, including exhuming dead relatives, implanting of CCTVs in all body organs, etc. The usual
[3:30]	Babbage Linden:	so, i imagine some crazy llTurnOffDelays() call later to work around our previous throttling craziness
[3:31]	Liandra Ceawlin:	\o/
[3:31]	LSL Scientist:	<3
[3:31]	Babbage Linden:	but, this is pretty far in the future
[3:31]	Babbage Linden:	hopefully we'll be able to fold it in to C#
[3:31]	Liandra Ceawlin:	And if changing textures is deemed external load, can we still have an option to adjust texture offsets with no delay? >_>
[3:31]	lonetorus Habilis:	before 2027?
[3:31]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Or am I getting ahead of myself? Lol.
[3:31]	Babbage Linden:	(and C# will be useful without it: it will still provide arrays, objects, exceptions, user defined types...)
[3:32]	Babbage Linden:	all of those things will still make for more efficient scripts
[3:32]	Babbage Linden:	liandra, i'd have to think about each case
[3:32]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Noddles.
[3:32]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Well, I shall definitely spam your easr off on this forthcoming survey. :o
[3:33]	Babbage Linden:	changing textures would result in external http calls, but those will be throttled anyway
[3:33]	Liandra Ceawlin:	In fact, I shall try to obtain permission from some clients for which I have had to produce cheese to include some nommy cheese examples. >_>
[3:33]	Babbage Linden:	so, you'd just need to be careful that you didn't change textures so fast that the viewer couldn't keep up
[3:34]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Noddles. Well, that still gets throttled externall by the grey goo, even when you are using a bazillion scripts to change em all at once anyway, right? Or am I on crack here? >_>
[3:34]	Liandra Ceawlin:	*externally
[3:34]	Babbage Linden:	not sure
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	but, the point is we should be using throttles to avoid things like grey goo
[3:35]	Dirk Talamasca:	Aimee crashed me :o(
[3:35]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Nods.
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	rather than just slowing all script calls down
[3:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	sorry, bad habit
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	ok, that's pretty much all i have
[3:35]	Babbage Linden:	anything else you'd like to talk about?
[3:36]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Are you allowed to comment on the Cyn thing? :P
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	i haven't read it yet
[3:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	cyns msg: http://pastebin.ca/1634472
[3:36]	Babbage Linden:	give me a minute
[3:36]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Take yer time! We have all been emoing all night, lol.
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	ok, read it
[3:38]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I would lol about it, but unless I got pulled into a time warp, it doesn't seem like April 1. <_< Lol.
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	seems pretty reasonable to me: please make viewers with improved features, but don't make viewers that copy content
[3:38]	Babbage Linden:	what are your concerns?
[3:38]	Dirk Talamasca:	We are curious to know just how evil encrypting chat might be and how it would be of threat to residents.
[3:39]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage there will be a registry of "approved" viewers
[3:39]	Latif Khalifa:	you wouldn't be just able to compile and run your own without risking ToS violation
[3:39]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	Encrypted chat is an interesting feat for governments and major corporations in SL I'd imagine
[3:39]	Liandra Ceawlin:	It seems kinda crazy to try to do client-side security on a client-server architecture where the client can be assumed untrustworthy. <_<
[3:40]	Latif Khalifa:	also the bit about encrypting chat being against ToS
[3:40]	lonetorus Habilis:	i fail to see how chat encryption is a breach of CS and TOS
[3:40]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I mean.... The ripper viewers will just masquerate as the official one, and the rest of us will just have a big headache. <_<
[3:40]	Babbage Linden:	well, IANAL, so I'm not going to talk about ToS or CS issues
[3:41]	lonetorus Habilis:	XD
[3:41]	Aimee Trescothick:	how do you differentiate between someone that's encrypting their chat and someone that habitually types nonsense? :D
[3:41]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, i dont see how its technically possible to limit what vewvers connect
[3:41]	Latif Khalifa:	but linden lab is making a ne policy about having a registry of approved viewers...
[3:41]	lonetorus Habilis:	there will always be smart coders around, and those that follow them (script kiddies that do the copying)
[3:41]	Dirk Talamasca:	like me, for instance
[3:41]	Babbage Linden:	i can see that there may have to be some mechanism to support developers
[3:42]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: the issue is that viewer is open source, and a whole community of developers is helping LL, there's an ecosystem around it. This is effectively shutting down that ecosystem.
[3:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	does typing all my chat in pig latin count as encryption?
[3:42]	Babbage Linden:	for example, how do you develop your viewer and test it against SL before submitting it for approval
[3:42]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I can has lolcat crypto nao?
[3:42]	Latif Khalifa:	https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy
[3:42]	lonetorus Habilis:	Aimee, ask at linden lawyer OH? (oh wait, they dont have one)
[3:43]	Babbage Linden:	the goal is clearly not to shut down the open source ecosystem
[3:43]	Latif Khalifa:	approval? so you don't see anything wrong with asking for approval for an opensource viewer?
[3:43]	Babbage Linden:	but, i can see that it's going to be a difficult balance to strike
[3:44]	Kaluura Boa wonders if he will still be able to compile the client from SVN in his backyard and connect to SL...
[3:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	People don't extend the GPL viewer because they wish to work for LL for free. They do so because they enjoy the freedom. Remove the freedom, and say bye to the developers.
[3:44]	Babbage Linden:	kaluura, yes that still needs to be supported
[3:44]	Babbage Linden:	i'm not going to comment much further as I haven't been working on this
[3:45]	Babbage Linden:	but, there are ways this can work
[3:45]	Babbage Linden:	for example, firefox comes with a bunch of preinstalled search engines that can be used for it's search
[3:45]	Latif Khalifa:	but submitting viewer that i compile on my own computer to test a feature that i work on
[3:45]	Latif Khalifa:	for approval
[3:45]	Babbage Linden:	if you want to get your search engine on there at install time, you're going to have to ask firefox
[3:45]	Latif Khalifa:	makes no sense
[3:46]	Latif Khalifa:	not in open source world anyway
[3:46]	Babbage Linden:	but, it doesn't stop you making another search engine, building the glue that would plug it in to firefox
[3:46]	Babbage Linden:	and then pointing people to it
[3:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	The problem is that Cyn and similar Lindens appear not to be aware of the open source community at all.
[3:46]	Babbage Linden:	you can still have open source along with approvals or recommendations
[3:47]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, this would be akin to google asking every browser dev to submit for their approval prior to being allowed to connect to their services
[3:47]	Liandra Ceawlin:	It does if, pardon the interruption, God says, "This search engine you built may not connect to my intarwebs! >:O"
[3:47]	Babbage Linden:	latif, lots of services have restrictions on usage
[3:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not open source friendly services
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	for example, you can, techinically build screen scrapers for lots of services with APIs
[3:48]	Babbage Linden:	but the service provider would say, please use the API
[3:48]	Latif Khalifa:	restrictions on usage is one thing, requesting client approval is another
[3:48]	Latif Khalifa:	nobody is arguing that abuse and violation of ToS is a good thing
[3:49]	Dirk Talamasca:	Not at all.
[3:49]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Just that the protections being suggested are indeed not any protection at all, and will simply stifle innovation.
[3:49]	Latif Khalifa:	exactly
[3:49]	lonetorus Habilis:	*agrees*
[3:50]	Hypatia Callisto:	agrees
[3:50]	Latif Khalifa:	bad guys are not going to bother with approval process, they're just gonna spoof regular viewer this only affects legit OS devs
[3:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage, if we can't technical people like yourself on the side of open source, then pretty much all hope is lost.
[3:50]	lonetorus Habilis:	ltif, what was that example from blizzard and wow?
[3:50]	lonetorus Habilis:	latif
[3:51]	Latif Khalifa:	well blizzard has spent millions and a dedicated dev team trying to authenticate clients, and did it work? of course not
[3:51]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Poor Babbage, lol. We have pitchforked him good today. ;(
[3:51]	Babbage Linden:	morgaine, i'm not going to declare allegance to any side here, as i haven't been involved with the discussion
[3:51]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, we can still express our concern
[3:51]	lonetorus Habilis:	what you do with our suggestions in the end is up to you
[3:52]	Babbage Linden:	but, i will say that there are issues that need to be addressed with policy as well as technology
[3:52]	Liandra Ceawlin:	You have the dubious distinction of being the first OO since the announcement. ;P
[3:52]	Latif Khalifa:	hahaha
[3:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: the case for open source is pretty well known, and it was even the LL policy until yesterday, it was believed.
[3:52]	Babbage Linden:	we all want to have open source and innovation and content protection
[3:52]	Babbage Linden:	but getting all of those things at the same time is hard
[3:53]	Babbage Linden:	where we can implement technology solutions to protect content we will
[3:53]	Latif Khalifa:	i think linden lab knows fully well the benefist of opensource... they are reaping all the benefits
[3:53]	Babbage Linden:	(which is what we deployed last week)
[3:53]	Liandra Ceawlin:	It just feels to me like nontechnical people are dictation nonsensical technical policy, maybe, and that is never a good thing. <_<
[3:53]	Liandra Ceawlin:	*dictating
[3:53]	Latif Khalifa:	Babbage, trying to protect the service by relying on a client is a non-starter
[3:53]	lonetorus Habilis:	babbage, the notecard exploit?
[3:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's as Liandra says. And we're hoping that at least the technical Lindens can see the case, and champion it inside LL *against* the non-technical Lindens who are making daft policies.
[3:54]	Babbage Linden:	latif, a technological solution to content protection would be to stream video from the servers, but that's uneconomical, would stop viewer innovation and would only work until computer vision could work out 3D geometry anyway
[3:55]	Babbage Linden:	so, we have to use policy and norms
[3:55]	Dirk Talamasca:	Restrictions on things that are detrimental is logical.. Implementing those restrictions by blanketing and suffocationg innovation is unnecessary
[3:55]	Babbage Linden:	make it clear that it's ok to extend and innovate in the viewer
[3:55]	Babbage Linden:	but it's not ok to steal other people's content
[3:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's known, Babbage. Nothing new there. So why the new anti-FOSS attitude in LL?
[3:56]	Babbage Linden:	it's not acceptable for people who create content in second life to just say "there are no easy technology fixes for this, so tough"
[3:56]	Latif Khalifa:	nobody disputes that... the dispute is about making it illegal to connect with something that is not sent to LL for certification first
[3:56]	Dirk Talamasca:	And apparently it is not okay to encrypt chat and have a bit of privacy either?
[3:56]	Babbage Linden:	latif, i doubt that will happen
[3:56]	Babbage Linden:	i don't think there is an anti-FOSS attitude at linden
[3:57]	Latif Khalifa:	i wish someone would clearly say so from Linden Lab side... all comments from Linden Lab on that issue were "this is to be determined"
[3:57]	Babbage Linden:	but there is definitely an anti content theft attitude
[3:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: it *will* happen unless techie Lindens stand against it. If you and similar FOSS-aware Lindens don't, nobody else will.
[3:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	I imagine with the chat encryption the lawyers have regulatory concerns
[3:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nobody seems willing to stand up to the policy nutters.
[3:57]	Liandra Ceawlin:	I can definitely see your point of view, Babbage, but... I dunno, there has got to be a better way, lol. I just don't think the people that are going to rip stuff are going to be very put off by policy anyway, and if an illicit viewer can be made to look just like the official viewer from the server end of things, then it seems to not be any solution at all. :<
[3:58]	Babbage Linden:	i'm going to continue to use open source technology, contribute to it and encourage it where i can
[3:58]	Babbage Linden:	liandra, if you can think of a better way, please let me know ;-)
[3:58]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Hehe, I wish I was that smart. :P Lol.
[3:58]	Hypatia Callisto:	I was going to sy... and disconnected, that the viewer is not really the way to deal with content issues
[3:59]	Liandra Ceawlin:	It is a pretty sticky tarpit, ain't it? Lol.
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	hypatia, we have much more control on the server and we will continue to ensure content protection there
[3:59]	Latif Khalifa:	well one thing is for sure, if non-licensed clients connecting to the grid are to be considered a violatin of ToS in the future, opensource is dead
[3:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: if you don't see a better way, that is no reason to implement a terribly bad way.
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	it is much harder to to anything technological in the viewer
[3:59]	Babbage Linden:	as it's not in our hands
[4:00]	Babbage Linden:	so, we have to rely on policy and norms much more there
[4:00]	lonetorus Habilis:	what if global asset removals where possible via the dmca process, currently we are being asked to provide specifc named avatrs and inventory names to get that one copy removed
[4:00]	Babbage Linden:	it's ok to have tools, it's not ok to use them to steal
[4:00]	Latif Khalifa:	no dispute there
[4:00]	Babbage Linden:	dmca process is another part of this
[4:00]	Morgaine Dinova:	Babbage: and that's what you were doing until now: "no arms race" was said by several Lindens. Apparently that's changed now?
[4:01]	Babbage Linden doesn't want to get involved in an arms race that can't be won
[4:01]	Latif Khalifa:	again, dispute is about will people be allowed to use homebrew clients to connect without risk of being banned for the sole reason of not using officially approved viewer
[4:01]	Babbage Linden:	i don't think that's what this is about
[4:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	So tell Cyn!!!
[4:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Tell your colleagues that it can't be won.
[4:01]	Babbage Linden:	i will certainly pass on your concerns to cyn ;-)
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	ok, we're out of time
[4:02]	Latif Khalifa:	that's all we can hope for :)
[4:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	*nods*
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	i'll talk to cyn and get back to you next week
[4:02]	Liandra Ceawlin:	Thanks for your time Babbage, and sorry for the pitchforks! Lol.
[4:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	thanks for listening and comments bababge
[4:02]	Latif Khalifa:	haha
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	heh, no problem
[4:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	and regarding memory limit work, good news
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	it was fun as always
[4:02]	Latif Khalifa:	thanks for your time Babbage
[4:02]	Becky Pippen:	thank you Babbage
[4:02]	Babbage Linden is always glad to see passionate residents
[4:02]	Dirk Talamasca:	Thanks Babbage!
[4:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep, that's all we're hoping for Babbage, someone who understands the technical side to inform Linden policy makers who don't.
[4:02]	Babbage Linden:	see you all round
[4:03]	Latif Khalifa:	take care
[4:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes, take care
[4:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Babbage :-) TC
[4:03]	Nock Forager:	Thanks Babbage. Seeya next week.