User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2010 01 13

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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[3:15] Ovaltine Constantine: There he is

[3:15] Ovaltine Constantine: Teehee

[3:15] Babbage Linden: sorry i'm late

[3:15] Babbage Linden: hello

[3:15] Nock Forager: oh!

[3:15] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Mornin', Babbage!

[3:15] Actingill Igaly: morning

[3:15] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: hey Babbage.

[3:15] Qie Niangao: Greetings, Babbage.

[3:15] Xugu Madison: hey Babbage!

[3:15] Nock Forager: From SF?

[3:15] Babbage Linden: thanks for coming everyone

[3:15] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning Babbage :-)

[3:15] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Well, at least I know my script works for Lindens. ;)

[3:16] Johan Laurasia: some, depends

[3:16] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Ohhh he fell in the drink. D:=

[3:16] Xugu Madison watches Babbage fall overboard "You may want a more practical OH area :)"

[3:16] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Fell in the drink - haha, I haven't heard that saying since Worms Armageddon. xD

[3:16] Babbage Linden: how is everyone today?

[3:16] Actingill Igaly: good thanks

[3:17] Ardy Lay: Cold but alive.

[3:17] Morgaine Dinova: Sleepy

[3:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Just watching the snow outside.

[3:17] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Ya just needs moar coffee, if he's on SF time. :P

[3:17] Xugu Madison: A bit... braaaaains... but getting slowly together

[3:17] Babbage Linden: i'm in brighton at the moment

[3:17] Xugu Madison: thesis draft due tomorrow :(

[3:17] Babbage Linden: lots more snow last night

[3:17] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Ooh.

[3:17] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: We've had light snow in Tamworth all morning.

[3:17] Robin Cornelius: YOu got hit in the SE as well? wow

[3:17] Babbage Linden: but i made it in to the office

[3:18] Babbage Linden: so, did anyone manage to work out what was wrong with the LSL HMAC code?

[3:18] Morgaine Dinova: Just sleeting here, and it's lightly covering the just-thawed spots, so gonna be slippery as hell.

[3:18] Babbage Linden: http://lsl.pastebin.com/m54880359

[3:19] Babbage Linden: i've asked strife for help as I'm using his combined library, but haven't heard anything back yet

[3:19] Ceawlin Steamweaver: That kinda stuff is over my head. I can't grok it without a cookbook. >_>

[3:20] Babbage Linden: heh

[3:20] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Scripting in general is over my head. :p

[3:20] Babbage Linden: it's certainly pretty fiddly

[3:20] Babbage Linden: i'd like to get it working both in LSL and in C# in our internal prototype

[3:20] Babbage Linden: to compare the 2 implementations

[3:21] Qie Niangao: Question: Is there (should there be?) a wiki page with current thinking about script limits, semi-comprehensive, so we can point people to it when they have questions?

[3:21] Babbage Linden: it's things like encryption and other byte manipulation applications that will benefit greatly

[3:21] Babbage Linden: qie, yes, good idea

[3:21] Xugu Madison: Qie, that does sound rather good, there's a lot of misinformation and general "Uh oh?"

[3:21] Babbage Linden: we can pull the pertinent points out of the office hour logs

[3:22] Babbage Linden: i'll talk to jack about it

[3:22] Robin Cornelius: if its "current thinking" it might need to be controlled in some way to stop random edits or people will add their own current thinking

[3:22] Babbage Linden: right

[3:22] Qie Niangao: yes... otherwise I'd tackle it myself, but I think it should be semi-official

[3:23] Babbage Linden: thanks for the offer qie, i'll let jack know that you're interested in helping

[3:23] Robin Cornelius: Qie for things i did with Rob i use to flesh them out in my user area and he would take them and tweek for the offical version

[3:23] Ceawlin Steamweaver: I been trying to educate the haters, but it seems that sometimes haters can't be educated. *grumble*

[3:23] Morgaine Dinova: In practice the wiki community is well behaved, and doesn't alter pages written by Lindens in any bad way.

[3:23] Qie Niangao: Thanks Robin... I'll see if I can do anything useful.

[3:24] Babbage Linden: i read your mail last week morgaine

[3:24] Babbage Linden: i think you're right and were worrying unduly

[3:24] Babbage Linden: we won't be having a single uniform limit for all simulators

[3:24] Morgaine Dinova: Good. Static limits are a bad idea.

[3:25] Babbage Linden: the limits will at the very least vary by sku

[3:25] PP HUD Radar v1.6.3: PP HUD Radar v1.6.3 [script:PP gate keeper] Script run-time error

[3:25] PP HUD Radar v1.6.3: Stack-Heap Collision

[3:25] Babbage Linden: so, homesteads and open spaces will have different limits than full sims to start with

[3:25] Babbage Linden: if we end up with a heterogeneous grid

[3:25] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Heh, nice run-time error there.

[3:25] Babbage Linden: (which, as you point our is inevitable at scale)

[3:26] Babbage Linden: then we will end up with different limits on the different classes of machines

[3:26] Babbage Linden: i think this is compatible with a simple accounting system that works like prims

[3:26] Morgaine Dinova: Makes sense. You have to be able to make use of upgrades as they happen, anything else is a waste.

[3:26] Babbage Linden: it will still allow people to buy objects that need X prims, Y Kb and Z urls

[3:27] Babbage Linden: and have land owners who get different allowances of those resources dependent on hardware

[3:27] Babbage Linden: you will still be able to compare 2 objects by resource usage

[3:27] Babbage Linden: and compare 2 hardware configurations by resource allowance

[3:28] Babbage Linden: ultimately jack would like it also to be possible to trade off resources

[3:28] Babbage Linden: so if you control a region, you get to turn up scripts and turn down physics for example

[3:28] Johan Laurasia: not a bad idea

[3:28] Ceawlin Steamweaver: That would be keen.

[3:28] Babbage Linden: but we're a long way from that now :-D

[3:29] Xugu Madison: My biggest worry, Babbage, is how Mono will be counted. Some of us have been scripting large Mono scripts that do the job of 4 different LSL2 scripts, for the memory saving from bytecode sharing. If that's not visible to the user, they'll move off to the less efficient single scripts I suspect...

[3:29] Morgaine Dinova: Sim owners would appreciate that, definitely.

[3:29] Babbage Linden: xugu, i would like to see us account for bytecode sharing too

[3:29] Babbage Linden: but i'm not sure that is going to make the first iteration

[3:30] Johan Laurasia: once plugins become available, do you think it will catch on enough to offload alot of the in world scripting to lighten the load on the servers?

[3:30] Babbage Linden: one way i think we might be able to make it work is to count the bytecode size for the first copy, and then have duplicates have 0 bytecode cost

[3:31] Actingill Igaly: That would be good, some of my stuff needs 40 copies of the same script at the moment

[3:31] Ceawlin Steamweaver: I am sorry for possibly being an annoying bozo, but I am supposed to ask if there is any way we could get an unofficial pre-QA efficient scripting sim or two on the beta grid before official QA time. Sorry. Lol. :P

[3:31] Babbage Linden: but we'd have to think about how that interacts with bytecode and data being accounted together

[3:32] Babbage Linden: for example if you rez a, then b

[3:32] Babbage Linden: which are scripts that use the same bytecode

[3:32] Babbage Linden: a "pays" for the bytecode cost

[3:32] Babbage Linden: b gets it for free

[3:32] Babbage Linden: b uses all it's memory for data

[3:33] Babbage Linden: a gets taken back

[3:33] Babbage Linden: be has to pay the bytecode cost by has no memory

[3:33] Babbage Linden: b, rather

[3:33] Xugu Madison: Even if bytecode sharing doesn't hit the quota, can it be shown? So later copies show as "Bytecode 26kb, but 0kb equivalent because it's sharing with object <blah>?"

[3:33] Babbage Linden: yes, we might be able to do that

[3:34] Xugu Madison: it makes it at least possible for us to show why we do these crazy things :)

[3:34] Babbage Linden: in the previous example, we'd have to reduce b's reserved memory by it's bytecode size

[3:34] Babbage Linden: that might be the best way to do it

[3:34] Babbage Linden: so, a would have 64Kb usage, b might have 48KB

[3:34] Babbage Linden: which would go back up to 64K when a gets removed...

[3:35] Babbage Linden: that might work nicely and wouldn't require any viewer changes...

[3:35] Actingill Igaly: is there a list of the proposed new script functions anywhere yet?

[3:36] Babbage Linden: no, we should do that

[3:36] Babbage Linden: efficient scripts has passed internal review

[3:36] Babbage Linden: and is code complete

[3:36] Actingill Igaly: i scared to script anything new incase i can do it in half he code

[3:36] Johan Laurasia: I've seen some proposed functions in the wiki

[3:36] Babbage Linden: so it should be fine to add the functions to the wiki

[3:37] Babbage Linden: the current plan is to release efficient scripts in 1.38

[3:37] Qie Niangao: perhaps just a checklist of what's "in" and "out" from http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5165 --assuming that's complete

[3:37] Babbage Linden: we may be able to get them on aditi for testing after 1.36

[3:37] Actingill Igaly: whats the timescale for that release?

[3:37] Ceawlin Steamweaver: \o/

[3:38] Babbage Linden: we haven't got a fixed date yet, but beginning of Q2 looks likely

[3:38] Actingill Igaly: great :)

[3:38] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Still aiming for early Feb on Aditi, then Agni in Q2, right?

[3:38] Babbage Linden: yes

[3:38] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Groovy.

[3:39] Babbage Linden: 1.36 is early efb

[3:39] Babbage Linden: feb

[3:39] Babbage Linden: efficient scripts will be able to go on aditi after that

[3:39] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Folk are prestering me to get their stuff efficientized before it goes on agni, so I am pretty pumped. Lol.

[3:39] Ovaltine Constantine: Whats in 1.36? (..Anything?)

[3:40] Xugu Madison hopes all of SVC-5165 makes it, but suspects that may be a touch optimistic :)

[3:40] Johan Laurasia: lol

[3:40] Qie Niangao: I don't even know what's in 1.35. :o

[3:40] Babbage Linden: wsgi asset upload is in 1.36, which i worked on

[3:40] Babbage Linden: it makes asset upload more efficient and throttled

[3:40] Ceawlin Steamweaver: They have a linux-like numbering scheme nao, Qie, odds are internal builds (I think).

[3:40] Nock Forager: 1.36 is already on aditi, Oskar Linden announce it on Beta group.

[3:40] Babbage Linden: so you can't affect simulator performance by compiling scripts

[3:40] Qie Niangao: oh :o

[3:41] Babbage Linden: or slow a party down by taking snapshots ;-D

[3:41] A group member named Oskar Linden gave you Server 1.36 BETA Release Note Card.

[3:41] Babbage Linden: (which was the biggest problem with the old asset upload code at busy parties)

[3:41] Babbage Linden: there are various other fixes and features in, but that's the bit that we're shipping

[3:42] Ovaltine Constantine: Thats cool. I was at an OH earlier and they said that none (0) of those "confirmed easy changes" were in 1.36, is that right?

[3:42] Qie Niangao: (RL calls... have fun, all)

[3:42] Babbage Linden: ovaltine, i'm not aware of any scripting work that's going to ship in 1.36

[3:43] Xugu Madison: Babbage, any work on web-service asset (texture, anim, etc.) upload? :)

[3:43] Babbage Linden: "confirmed easy fixes" like efficient scripts still take at least a month of work

[3:43] Babbage Linden: xugu, yes, the wsgi asset upload work makes asset upload much more efficient

[3:44] Actingill Igaly: no changes to the limitations of say, animations is there?

[3:44] Babbage Linden: no changes, just more efficient upload

[3:45] Babbage Linden: better server performance

[3:45] Babbage Linden: before i forget, i wanted to ask you all to let me know what are the most amazing scripted objects you've seen in SL recently

[3:45] Babbage Linden: i'm going to do some talks at FOSDEM and SL Pro and would like to have some good recent examples

[3:46] Babbage Linden: i'd also like to have some interesting scripts to port to C#

[3:46] Xugu Madison: Babbage, erm, I meant as in... any chance I can write stuff that uploads directly without requiring the client, so I can have my logo generator upload images for me?

[3:46] Babbage Linden: that push LSL

[3:46] Ceawlin Steamweaver: I can show you a 4096m fast maze rezzer sometime if ya want. It needs reset periodically though, cos it steals prims from my neighboring parcel and they tend to derez randomly because of that. :s

[3:46] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: The only thing I have that I really like isn't recent and isn't transferable, unfortunately.

[3:46] Babbage Linden: xugu, no you'd need to get a capability from a logged in client

[3:47] Xugu Madison: Curses, foiled again

[3:47] Ardy Lay: Xugu, maybe visit with Enus?

[3:47] Babbage Linden: if you could have a think and let me know of interesting scripted objects this week that would be great

[3:48] Xugu Madison: Enus... noted...

[3:48] Babbage Linden: yes, xugu, you could use enus' python code to get you a cap and then use that to upload

[3:48] Xugu Madison: Cool

[3:48] Babbage Linden: you'd still need an account, but not a client

[3:48] Robin Cornelius: Xugu or libomv

[3:49] Babbage Linden: yes

[3:49] Xugu Madison: That's fine, would be nice to not have to remember where all the images I just generated, went to, and then manually upload them :)

[3:49] Babbage Linden: the other big news this week is that i made significant progress on http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895

[3:49] Ardy Lay: \o/

[3:50] Becky Pippen: Yay Babbage!

[3:50] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Wootfulness.

[3:50] Babbage Linden: only the 1st copy of any mono script causes any sim freezes

[3:50] Babbage Linden: i'm continuing to investigate why the first copy causes freezes too

[3:50] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Really.

[3:50] Ovaltine Constantine: How long until there arent any sim freezes ever?

[3:51] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: That would be a while.

[3:51] Babbage Linden: i'm hoping to ship the fixes i have in a 1.36.1 release

[3:51] Babbage Linden: while i continue to investigate

[3:51] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Cos I have made a box with hello avatar in it, made 64 copies, picked them all up, and rezzed them all at once, and there is some moticable sim hiccuping. >_>

[3:51] Ceawlin Steamweaver: *noticable, too.

[3:51] Xugu Madison: Going to have to run. Good luck with the freezes!

[3:52] Babbage Linden: thanks xugu

[3:52] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Or maybe it was 128. I don't remember. <_<

[3:53] Babbage Linden: i've been talking to the mono developers and this stall is fixed in the mono trunk

[3:53] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Ooo

[3:54] Babbage Linden: so, it will be fixed when we upgrade mono to c# anyway

[3:54] Babbage Linden: but, i'd like to get it fixed before then if i can

[3:54] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: So we'll hopefully no longer have to keep restarting a sim after several days?

[3:54] Babbage Linden: no

[3:55] Babbage Linden: the only reason that restarting a sim might be helping currently, with this problem is that you will be unloading scripts and so avoiding getting as many duplicates

[3:55] Actingill Igaly: i gotta shoot - thanks babbage and all. sees ya

[3:55] Babbage Linden: so, restarting sims will no longer help after 1.36.1

[3:55] Babbage Linden: at least not with the mon sim freeze problem

[3:55] Babbage Linden: it may help with other issues

[3:55] Sahkolihaa Contepomi nods.

[3:56] Babbage Linden: i'm going to be talking with the mono developers more about this when I go to FOSDEM next month

[3:56] Babbage Linden: last time we met up IRL we got scripts running in mono 10x faster after 2 days of working together, so I have high hopes...

[3:56] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Oh wow.

[3:57] Babbage Linden: thanks for the landmark liandra

[3:57] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Hehe, face-time always helps. :P

[3:57] Babbage Linden: ok, we have a couple of minutes left, anything else we should talk about?

[3:57] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Np, lemme know if it's broken when you get there. The parcels-sharing-prims bug hits it sometimes.

[3:57] Questar Utu: Will there ever be a chance that certain functions with 'sleep after run' limits removed?

[3:58] Questar Utu: Or are those purely for safety?

[3:58] Morgaine Dinova: Sim restarting needs to be stomped on anyway. You badly need some mechanism for live update, or live migration of state to an upgraded sim replica. Ejecting people is just not on.

[3:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi thinks it would be a good idea if a sim could teleport people out of a sim before restarting.

[3:58] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: out of the sim*

[3:58] Babbage Linden: heh, that's a huge job morgaine, i don't see that being done any time soon

[3:59] Babbage Linden: at least we don't have to turn off SL every wednesday anymore...

[3:59] Ceawlin Steamweaver: lol

[3:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: You are tmorrow. :p

[3:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: tomorrow*

[3:59] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Well, not fully, but nothing else will work. ;)

[3:59] Questar Utu: Turning it off weekly for maintinence would be a good idea, despite how many people complain.

[4:00] Babbage Linden: ok, times up

[4:00] Babbage Linden: i should get back to work

[4:00] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Agni downtime used to give me an excuse to explore the beta grid. There hasn't been as much of that lately. :P

[4:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: See you Babbage.

[4:00] Babbage Linden: thanks for coming everyone

[4:00] Morgaine Dinova: Babbage: well you'd better be thinking about it, because Zero doesn't grok your scripting side so he's not going to tackle it in his sekrit project for 3-5 years ahead.

[4:00] Questar Utu waves.

[4:00] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Thanks Babbage!

[4:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Le poof.

[4:00] Morgaine Dinova: Have fun Babbage, tc :-)

[4:00] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Four hours till Q's OH.

[4:00] Becky Pippen: thanks Babbage

[4:00] Morgaine Dinova: Good OH