User:Babbage Linden/Office Hours/2010 06 16

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Transcript of Babbage Linden's office hours:

[03:03] Nock Forager: hello Babbage

[03:03] Ardy Lay: Zombie?

[03:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Babbage :-)

[03:04] Latif Khalifa: the undead cometh

[03:04] Ardy Lay: Hi Babbage

[03:04] Latif Khalifa: hello Babbage :)

[03:04] pipinpa Allen: haha, yeahh Babbage

[03:04] Jonathan Yap: Good morning Babbage

[03:04] Nock Forager: zombie?

[03:04] Babbage Linden: hi everyone

[03:04] Stickman Ingmann: You look a little under the weather, Babbage.

[03:04] Moy Loon: Hey!

[03:04] Imaze Rhiano: hi babbie

[03:04] Tillie Ariantho: Hello. :)

[03:04] Ju Roussel: Greetings Babbage, thank you for tweeting it :)

[03:06] Babbage Linden: let's give people a few more minutes to arrive

[03:06] Babbage Linden: i only tweeted a few minutes ago

[03:06] Morgaine Dinova: Time enough to make tea

[03:07] pipinpa Allen: i read your tweet :DD

[03:07] MasterPoppy Amat: me too:) (hi all)

[03:09] Ardy Lay: Hi Irie

[03:09] Irie Linden: Hello :)

[03:10] Babbage Linden: hi irie

[03:10] pipinpa Allen: hi Irie

[03:10] MasterPoppy Amat: hi.

[03:10] Ardy Lay: Hi Aimee

[03:10] Latif Khalifa: hey Aimee :)

[03:11] Babbage Linden: ok, it's 10 past, let's get started

[03:11] Aimee Linden: ✄ ✄ ✂lo

[03:11] Aimee Linden: oops

[03:11] Babbage Linden: first of all, sorry for missing last week's office hours

[03:11] Babbage Linden: we were in a meeting in the brighton lab finding out about the re-structuring

[03:12] Babbage Linden: as you've probably seen on the linden blog, that restructuring includes consolidating software development in the us

[03:13] Babbage Linden: which means linden is currently considering shutting down the brighton lab

[03:13] Babbage Linden: we are currently in a 30 day consultation period

[03:13] Babbage Linden: at the end of which, linden will make their decision

[03:14] Babbage Linden: as m has already announced the consolidation of engineering in the us, I am expecting that decision to be to close the brighton lab

[03:14] Imaze Rhiano: :(

[03:15] Babbage Linden: in the meantime, we are continuing the development of c# pending that decision

[03:15] Babbage Linden: and we're making good progress

[03:15] Babbage Linden: we have the documentation nearly complete

[03:16] Babbage Linden: and intend to release that at the end of the month as planned

[03:16] Babbage Linden: i hope you will look at the proposed api and give us your feedback on it

[03:17] Babbage Linden: after that we will be working towards a public beta which should happen around the end of next month

[03:18] Babbage Linden: it's unlikely to be complete, but should be usable and will enable you to try C# scripting and give us your feedback

[03:18] Jonathan Yap: Will this project carry on even if your office is closed?

[03:18] Morgaine Dinova: Very cool Babbage. Must be hard to remain focussed on it, in the circumstances.

[03:18] Babbage Linden: that is unclear

[03:19] Babbage Linden: there was no guarantee that the project would continue anyway

[03:19] Babbage Linden: the feedback from the beta will be very useful input

[03:19] Babbage Linden: and will help linden judge whether the project should continue

[03:20] Babbage Linden: if lots of positive feedback is received and the number of reported bugs is low, then it may be continued

[03:20] Babbage Linden: but if the feedback is mixed and there are lots of open bugs, then it's unlikely given that whether brighton is closed or not there are fewer engineers at linden

[03:21] Babbage Linden: in any case, all of the engineers would like to see the project reach some kind of conclusion

[03:21] Babbage Linden: and I'm very proud of them for that

[03:21] Tillie Ariantho: Isn't it even required for SL to make some progress at all?

[03:21] Mojito Sorbet: Was this an entirely Brighton project?

[03:21] Babbage Linden: engineers like to get things done

[03:21] Latif Khalifa: Falcon and other Linens say a lot of work in the future on the server depends on that project, especially the script api versioning

[03:21] Babbage Linden: we had project management support in SF

[03:22] Morgaine Dinova: Management likes to get things undone.

[03:22] Babbage Linden: but unfortunately they have been let go too

[03:22] Latif Khalifa: Gisele?

[03:22] Babbage Linden: the only team member unaffected is kelly

[03:22] Babbage Linden: who is very keen to see the project completed

[03:22] Babbage Linden: we will be transitioning the work to kelly over the coming weeks

[03:23] Babbage Linden: and he will likely be triaging and working on bugs when we go to beta

[03:24] Babbage Linden: in addition we are hoping to reduce the risk of the project not getting to beta by making as much of the code as possible open source

[03:24] Babbage Linden: which will allow you all to help us if you have the time

[03:24] Babbage Linden: that discussion is currently happening within linden

[03:24] Latif Khalifa: sure

[03:24] Babbage Linden: and I'm very much hoping that we'll be able to release the code soon

[03:24] Mojito Sorbet: "as much as possible"??

[03:25] Babbage Linden: the code under discussion is the API definition code

[03:25] Morgaine Dinova: That's cool Babbage.

[03:26] Babbage Linden: if that was open source it would allow the creation of intellisense files for IDE support

[03:26] Babbage Linden: and unit testing frameworks for C# second life scripts

[03:26] Latif Khalifa: which linden is the most influential in making the descision about the project going forward? (ie where to loby :)

[03:26] Babbage Linden: it can also be mostly reverse engineered from the documentation we'll release anyway

[03:26] Babbage Linden: so that is a relatively easy decision

[03:27] Babbage Linden: the other software we're discussing is the UThreadInjector

[03:27] Babbage Linden: which is where most of the work needed to get C# in to beta needs to be done

[03:27] Babbage Linden: I know there is interest from the OpenSim community in being able to use that code

[03:28] Babbage Linden: to enable OpenSim regions to run 1000s of scripts in the same way that Second Life does

[03:28] Babbage Linden: so, we're hoping that if we open source it we will be able to get some help completing it

[03:28] Morgaine Dinova: That would be good

[03:28] Mojito Sorbet: Completing it in OpenSim, not SL

[03:28] Babbage Linden: which will allow us to get to beta on our new compressed time scale

[03:29] Babbage Linden: if OpenSim and SL both use the same UThreadInjector it would also make moving scripts between SL and OpenSim possible in the future

[03:29] Latif Khalifa: i'm sure if the code was released many devs would chip in and help get it into beta at that shortened timescale

[03:29] Babbage Linden: as they could have binary compatibility between the serialized scripts

[03:29] Mojito Sorbet: Impossible to test it, without the rest of the server code

[03:30] Babbage Linden: there's also interest from the wider .NET community in that technology

[03:30] Babbage Linden: so we may get help from elsewhere

[03:30] Babbage Linden: the UThreadInjector is an independent tool and so can be tested and developed without the rest of SL

[03:30] Morgaine Dinova: Many departed Lindens are working on Opensim themselves, like Prospero and Infinity for example. Might you be interested in working on Opensim some day too, Babbage?

[03:31] Papol Heron: Hello sime

[03:31] Papol Heron: hi to all

[03:31] Babbage Linden: we currently have a test suite set up that processes the Mono mcs compiler tests

[03:31] Babbage Linden: currently the UThreadInjector is able to process 25% of the tests

[03:32] Babbage Linden: and it reports the opcode which caused the test to fail

[03:32] Babbage Linden: so its easy to see what needs to be done

[03:33] Babbage Linden: it's possible to imagine a situation where we go to beta supporting 90% of CIL opcodes

[03:33] Babbage Linden: and, if the UThreadInjector is open source

[03:33] Babbage Linden: you would be able to test a script in SL, see the injection failure, find out which opcode caused it and add support yourself

[03:34] Babbage Linden: so, making that technology open source gives us more options

[03:34] Babbage Linden: and that's the discussion that is happening at the moment

[03:34] Morgaine Dinova: Sounds good Babbage

[03:34] Mojito Sorbet: How can it be tested without the rest of the server?

[03:34] Babbage Linden: i hope to have the results of that discussion soon

[03:34] Latif Khalifa: hopefully make it work with gmcs too (.net 2.0) if it was opensource :)

[03:35] Babbage Linden: that's the hope latif

[03:35] Babbage Linden: we were planning to port the UThreadInjector from RAIL to Cecil

[03:35] Babbage Linden: to allow it to support .NET 2 assemblies

[03:35] Babbage Linden: if the tool is open source and used widely, it's likely that the community would do that port

[03:36] Babbage Linden: so, that's where we are at the moment

[03:36] Babbage Linden: completing the documentation

[03:36] Morgaine Dinova: Could the open sourcing be blocked by corporate decision?

[03:36] Babbage Linden: finishing the XML descriptions of the SL profile

[03:37] Babbage Linden: extending the UThreadInjector to support more opcodes

[03:37] Babbage Linden: and talking about making it open source

[03:37] Babbage Linden: that decision needs to be made at an executive level

[03:37] Latif Khalifa: Babbage, glad to hear that you guys are still pressing ahead to get most done... and that not everything is bleak as it seemed last week

[03:37] Babbage Linden: and so I am talking to the executives about it currently

[03:38] Babbage Linden: it's pretty bleak

[03:38] Babbage Linden: but we're making the best of it

[03:38] Babbage Linden: and I'm very proud of the professionalism of the Brighton Lindens during this period

[03:38] Morgaine Dinova: /me nods

[03:39] Latif Khalifa: who are the executives in charge, would any effort on our part to try to convince them be of any use?

[03:39] Babbage Linden: probably best if I pass on your support

[03:39] Stickman Ingmann: Hah

[03:40] Morgaine Dinova: Good question, Latif. Who is the top of the Linden tech hierarchy?

[03:40] Stickman Ingmann: I've seen SLers "support" things, too. They get very passionate. :)

[03:40] Latif Khalifa: OK, that's one way of doinf it

[03:40] Latif Khalifa: hehe, true stick

[03:40] Babbage Linden: out of interest, how many people would be in a position to help out on an open source C# project?

[03:40] Latif Khalifa: i would

[03:40] Imaze Rhiano: I would

[03:40] Stickman Ingmann: I'm afraid I haven't the skill.

[03:41] Trash Genesis: same

[03:41] Babbage Linden: it would be a good way of learning C# ready for scripting SL ;-)

[03:41] Moy Loon: I guess I'll have to learn me some C# then!

[03:41] Morgaine Dinova: I'm not a C# expert, but I'll certainly take a good hard look at it.

[03:41] Latif Khalifa: could probably get some other libomv guys to participate too ;)

[03:41] Tillie Ariantho: Just got this C# 4.0 book. ;)

[03:41] MasterPoppy Amat: I'm willing ti learn C# in SL too:)

[03:41] pipinpa Allen: i wanna say "Hello world" on C# in SL :)

[03:42] Papol Heron: lol

[03:42] Jonathan Yap: The version you're developing is C# V1.0 right?

[03:42] Ju Roussel: Yeah, ordered the book phase :)

[03:42] Babbage Linden: currently the UThreadInjector is written in C#1 and supports .NET 1 assemblies

[03:43] Tillie Ariantho: http://www.lovemachineinc.com/2010/03/fearless-leaders/ M should send around this questionaire, too. :P

[03:43] Imaze Rhiano: For UThreadInjector there is very likely interest outside SL - C# scripts sounds fun

[03:43] Morgaine Dinova: It's only takes a few days to become proficient in C# 1.0, nothing too clever in it ;-)

[03:43] Imaze Rhiano: If you know Java - you pretty much know C# already

[03:43] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, roughly.

[03:44] Ju Roussel: (not if your only experience so far is LSL, Morgaine, lol)

[03:44] Opensource Obscure: Ju+

[03:44] Morgaine Dinova: Ju: if your only experience is LSL, you're not a developer ^_^

[03:44] Opensource Obscure: ??

[03:44] Tillie Ariantho: .D

[03:44] Babbage Linden: ok, so several people might be able to help out, that's great to know

[03:45] Latif Khalifa: Babbage, what communiation channel would you use to let us know of the developments

[03:45] Imaze Rhiano: I guess we can recruit some folks also from Open SIM to help out - if licence is not going to be too probhiting

[03:45] Mojito Sorbet: What about the library assembllies?

[03:46] Babbage Linden: so, anyone have anything else they want to talk about today?

[03:46] Latif Khalifa: yeah, if you manage to convince them try using Apahe2 license like some other LL openrource (pyogp) or MIT (llsd) :)

[03:46] Imaze Rhiano: Hate to ask this: but what about mono rezzing bug, memory limits and possibility to allocate memory in mono scripts?

[03:46] Mal Pinden: Some people are so rude

[03:46] Babbage Linden: (i'm going to suggest that feature requests are probably not that useful at this point)

[03:46] Mojito Sorbet: So what about the script-limit project?

[03:46] Latif Khalifa: status of the limits project(s(=

[03:47] Babbage Linden: script limits is going to transition to the land team in SF

[03:47] Babbage Linden: there is still some work to be done there

[03:47] Latif Khalifa: don't waste your time it :)

[03:47] Opensource Obscure: mono rezzing bug is a hot topic indeed

[03:48] Skills ModularSystems: and mono update in late summer still stands?

[03:48] Babbage Linden: the mono rezzing bug is likely addressed in the C# beta codebase

[03:48] Morgaine Dinova: Babbage: Zero released some Linden code (various implementations of LLSD) under MIT/BSD license a few days before the layoffs announcement, so that precedent may help you.

[03:48] Latif Khalifa: pyogp is apache2 which is fine too

[03:48] Babbage Linden: that code will then either ship with C#

[03:49] Babbage Linden: or have to be extracted from the C# branch if C# doesn't continue

[03:49] Babbage Linden: which kelly will be able to do

[03:49] Opensource Obscure: in other words, it's not supposed to be solved 'soon' where 'soon' means less than 6 months. approx.... ?

[03:49] Babbage Linden: so the mono sim freeze issue and mono upgrade will likely happen whatever happens to C#

[03:50] Babbage Linden: but i don't expect the restructuring to result in a faster development time for those projects

[03:50] Skills ModularSystems: :|

[03:51] Morgaine Dinova: lol

[03:51] Tillie Ariantho: those freezes just NEED to get fixed...

[03:51] Skills ModularSystems: ya can't they just backport that bit

[03:52] Skills ModularSystems: when mono is up to date

[03:52] Babbage Linden: yes we can

[03:52] Morgaine Dinova: Management has a different angle on what NEEDs to be done and what doesn;t.

[03:52] Babbage Linden: and I'm sure kelly and squire will discuss it

[03:52] Skills ModularSystems: :D

[03:52] Latif Khalifa: i'm still thinking on how to convince the linden execs how essential is to have c# project completed

[03:53] Babbage Linden: making amazing things in the beta is probably the best way

[03:53] Babbage Linden: /me looks at Moy

[03:53] Maggie Darwin: Sink me, I finally made it to a Babbage OH

[03:53] Moy Loon: :o

[03:53] Babbage Linden: ;-)

[03:53] Babbage Linden: hi maggie

[03:53] Babbage Linden: welcome

[03:54] Maggie Darwin: 'Morning. Up early to catch a plane here.

[03:54] Babbage Linden: oh yes, that was the final thing i wanted to mention

[03:54] Babbage Linden: kelly would like to start participating in the office hours

[03:54] Opensource Obscure: \o/

[03:54] Liisa Runo: yay

[03:54] Maggie Darwin: Excellent.

[03:54] Babbage Linden: as he may be taking over from me in running them

[03:54] Morgaine Dinova: Cool !!

[03:54] Stickman Ingmann: Would Kelly be changing the hours?

[03:54] Jonathan Yap: Does that mean a time change in when they are held?

[03:55] Mojito Sorbet: Probably at a different time

[03:55] Babbage Linden: so, we'll need to make the time later for him

[03:55] Mojito Sorbet: If Kelly is in SF

[03:55] Stickman Ingmann: I'm sure 4am would work fine.

[03:55] Maggie Darwin: It being 0355 there now. :-)

[03:55] Babbage Linden: my overlap time with SF has far fewer meetings in as of a week ago

[03:55] Babbage Linden: so, I'm going to suggest we move to 9AM on wednesday from next week

[03:56] Morgaine Dinova: That's cool Babbage

[03:56] Babbage Linden: I know that won't work for everyone, but I hope some of you will still be able to make it

[03:56] Jonathan Yap: Will you update the wiki OH entry so we will know for sure?

[03:56] Latif Khalifa: 9am pst?

[03:56] Babbage Linden: latif, yes

[03:56] Morgaine Dinova: I'm on US time, despite being in the UK, so that's great with me.

[03:56] Babbage Linden: hopefully it will also let some new residents turn up and lobby for features too ;-)

[03:57] Latif Khalifa: that's 5pm uk time, so it's fine

[03:57] Babbage Linden: (and unwittingly get volunteered for vapourware open source projects)

[03:57] Latif Khalifa: or 7? damn timezones

[03:57] Babbage Linden: its 5PM UK time

[03:57] Latif Khalifa: ah ok

[03:57] Opensource Obscure: i think 5pm in UK. 6pm in italy, fine for me.

[03:57] Babbage Linden: end of my day, rather than the start of it

[03:57] Maggie Darwin: No excuse for "unwittingly". Eyes wide open.

[03:57] Opensource Obscure: :D

[03:58] pipinpa Allen: 0:00am in Japan?

[03:58] Babbage Linden: ok, good, 5PM/9AM next week it is

[03:58] Babbage Linden: hope to see you all there

[03:58] Babbage Linden: and if you can't make it at the new time, thank you so much for coming for the last few years ;-)

[03:58] Ardy Lay: Thanks Babbage

[03:59] Maggie Darwin: I wouln't have realized this was the right time but for the Twitter from Babbage.

[03:59] Imaze Rhiano: Thank you Babbage

[03:59] Babbage Linden: it really has been the most fun

[03:59] Stickman Ingmann: Thank you Babbage.

[03:59] MasterPoppy Amat: thack you babage:)

[03:59] Opensource Obscure: thanks Jim. can't wait to see your next experimentation with GuitarzPadsSoundEffects and robots

[03:59] Morgaine Dinova: Sure will, looking forward to "Kelly OH". :-)

[03:59] windyy Lane: thank you Babbage

[03:59] MasterPoppy Amat: thank*

[03:59] Latif Khalifa: thank you Babbage :)

[03:59] pipinpa Allen: sure :)

[03:59] Simon Kline: Thanks babbage! :D These have been the best Office hours i've been to in SL :) (when 've ben abl to make it! )

[03:59] Maggie Darwin: Thanks and the best of luck to you, sir..

[03:59] Babbage Linden: you're what make SL amazing, so keep at it!

[03:59] Latif Khalifa: high marks for not giving up on the project even under these circumstances :)

[03:59] Skills ModularSystems: Thanks Babbage and good luck :>

[03:59] Logos Sohl: actually i wouldnt have known except for twitter either, so is it still going to be wednesdays?

[04:00] MasterPoppy Amat: good luck:D

[04:00] Jonathan Yap: We should have a going away party

[04:00] Babbage Linden: /me goes to pimp Moy's latest masterpiece to the Lindens

[04:00] Morgaine Dinova: Your office hours have been by far the most interesting technically, Babbage. I'm very grateful for that, it's made them worthwhile coming.

[04:00] Maggie Darwin: Dublin. Yesterday.

[04:00] Skills ModularSystems: oh which one?

[04:00] Moy Loon: eeeeaaaaaaaah!!! <:0

[04:00] Babbage Linden: yes, dublin was great

[04:00] Moy Loon: The old raycaster thing

[04:00] Skills ModularSystems: ah nice

[04:00] Babbage Linden: I'm sure there will be others

[04:01] Imaze Rhiano: THREE CHEERS FOR BABBAGE AND BRIGHTON LAB!!!

[04:01] Jonathan Yap: Hoooo!

[04:01] Imaze Rhiano: Hip Hip Hooray!!

[04:01] Imaze Rhiano: Hip Hip Hooray!!

[04:01] Tillie Ariantho: woohoo :D

[04:01] pipinpa Allen: yeahhhh

[04:01] Maggie Darwin: Hip hip Hooray!

[04:01] Morgaine Dinova: Agreed on the cheers! :-)

[04:01] Imaze Rhiano: Hip Hip Hooray!!

[04:01] Stickman Ingmann: :D

[04:01] Nock Forager: ya! ;-)

[04:01] Babbage Linden: /me feels a warm glow

[04:01] Babbage Linden: ok, see you all next time

[04:01] Maggie Darwin: Be well.

[04:01] Babbage Linden: keep building cool stuff!

[04:01] Latif Khalifa: take care Babbage and good luck with the execs

[04:02] Simon Kline: Take care babbage! :D

[04:02] Babbage Linden: thanks

[04:02] Skills ModularSystems: cya!

[04:02] pipinpa Allen: see ya babbage

[04:02] Imaze Rhiano: Bye Babbie

[04:02] MasterPoppy Amat: (*'-')/☆

[04:02] Moy Loon: Take care Babbage

[04:03] Morgaine Dinova: Babbage: and a good job all round from the team, in everything you've done, including presentations and community interaction.
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