User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Aug 30

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:01]	Benjamin Linden:	hi guys
[15:01]	Ciaran Laval:	Hi Benjamin
[15:01]	Benja Kepler:	hiya
[15:01]	Zhin Murakami:	Hello Benjamin
[15:01]	Tree Kyomoon:	hell oh benjamin
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	cool av Tree
[15:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks, im a skeleton!
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	wow this sim is lagging
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	I still don't see the floor
[15:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	just because you cant see it doesnt mean its not there...you have to believe :)
[15:03]	Zhin Murakami chuckles.
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	haha yeah, a leap of faith
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm surprised Squirrel and Wyn aren't here
[15:03]	Tree Kyomoon is writing the sequel to "the secret"
[15:03]	Ciaran Laval:	I saw them both earlier at Chadrick's office hour
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	ah there's the floor!
[15:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	hmm wyn is online
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	well maybe she'll swing by later
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	does anyone have a specific topic they'd like to discuss?
[15:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes I do
[15:04]	Zhin Murakami:	uhm...
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	ok, go ahead Tree
[15:05]	Zhin Murakami:	well not really topic but a question for me
[15:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	a couple of things...one is the login process after a crash
[15:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	as I discussed with zero earlier today
[15:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	and two is the idea of separating the chat and sound from the client
[15:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	so that we could crash the viewer but still be able to chat and hear the audio stream as we wait for the arduous login process
[15:06]	Ciaran Laval:	Wouldn't that be a bit resource hungry?
[15:06]	Tree Kyomoon:	or even just login to text chat/hear streams and not see the viewer stuff if we dont want it
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	what specifically about the login process were you talking about?
[15:06]	Tree Kyomoon:	the big problem is when you crash, then you have to try to log in like 3-4 times
[15:06]	Ciaran Laval:	Ah Tree I like the sound of that idea
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	Tree, there have been a lot of discussions lately around a lightweight client that can do chat, etc, but no 3d
[15:07]	Tree Kyomoon:	while the system tells you that you are being punshished and forced to sit outside for 5 minutes, mabey even in the corner
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	Tree, are you talking about the "You can't login because the sim is logging you out error"?
[15:07]	Benja Kepler:	you couldn't have >1 running with the same account though?
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, that'bs being worked on, Tree
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	it was fixed but then it stopped working again
[15:07]	Tree Kyomoon:	well thats the first one, the second one is not being able to come in
[15:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey all
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Squirrel!
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Wyn
[15:08]	Zhin Murakami:	Hello everybody
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Saijanai
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	Meow ^^
[15:08]	Tree Kyomoon:	but at any rate, having the ability to just typey chat and hear the stream would be awesome
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	did another meeting just let out?
[15:08]	Ciaran Laval:	Well as they've been talking about website authentication
[15:08]	Tree Kyomoon:	hi squirrel!
[15:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Hippo Hollow?
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	Tree, have you seen the AjaxLife client?
[15:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Open Source at Hippo
[15:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	Hiya Bones.
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	/ao off
[15:08]	Tree Kyomoon:	hi saij
[15:08]	Tree Kyomoon:	no I havent Ben
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	it's a web-based SL viewer that only has chat
[15:08]	Tree Kyomoon:	hey wyn!
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	pretty cool
[15:08]	Wyn Galbraith shares her set with Tree.
[15:09]	Wyn Galbraith shares Tree's seat.
[15:09]	Tree Kyomoon:	oh thats neat, could you run it along side the viewer and use it instead for chatting?
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	I believe so, I haven't used it yet myself. let me see if I can find the link
[15:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-621
[15:09]	Benja Kepler:	but not 2 logins under the same account?
[15:10]	Ciaran Laval:	It would be useful for when you just want to pop on for a quick chat or to answer a couple of questions and has a lot of implications for usage with other appliances
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	http://blog.katharineberry.co.uk/2007/07/02/ajaxlife/
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	here's the info
[15:10]	Tree Kyomoon thinks the viewer should be a seperate app that talks to the viewer buttons, which run as a seperate process and can be customized as a dhtml or flash layer
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	that sounds cool, Tree
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Dirk
[15:10]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be cool to have a mini SL viewer that would be able to run as a facebook app for example
[15:10]	Dirk Talamasca:	Hey Hey Benjamin ; )
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	yes! Facebook came up just the other day
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe you should write one, Tree! :-)
[15:11]	Tree Kyomoon:	I would if I knew how, do you think I could do it with LibSecondLife?
[15:11]	Tree Kyomoon:	Im just a flash programmer, dont know much else
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe you could ping Katharine berry and see how she did ajaxlife
[15:12]	Saijanai Kuhn has been looking at the client code for hours. decent framework except for one little class...
[15:12]	Wyn Galbraith:	Could you build a flash viewer?
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	a flash viewer would be awesome
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	which class is that Saijanai?
[15:12]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes if I had an API that gave me all the functions of all the buttons, exposed as ideally xml calls
[15:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the viewer class, llview. I'm calling it the kitchensinkcreatedafter72hoursandomygodweforgotthatandthatandthat class
[15:13]	Tree Kyomoon:	then we could really pretty up the blue soap bar interface!
[15:13]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wow, that would be cool.
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	lol @ Saijanai
[15:13]	Tree Kyomoon builds guis for Rich internet apps all day long
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	actually speaking up prettying things up
[15:14]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL Sai
[15:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'm serious, if this wasn't coded in some kind of ultijmjate burnout mode, I'd be greatly surprised
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	I've been intending to mention this on sldev
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	we have a new "look-and-feel" we've been playing with
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	it's a lighter color palette with more modern UI art assets
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	do you think there would be receptivity to pushing that out to the community?
[15:15]	Tree Kyomoon:	"your world" means you need to let the community design the interface
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	pusshing what out to the community?
[15:15]	Ciaran Laval:	I think we'd have to see it Benjamin
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	an updated visual appearance for the UI
[15:15]	Jansen Miles:	Screenshots pls. :)
[15:15]	Tree Kyomoon:	that is, let companies that specialize in making custom ui's build their own, just open up the UI api :)
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Tree, we are working on doing that and making the UI skinnable
[15:15]	Ciaran Laval:	Would people be able to go back to the traditional view? Some people will throw a complete wobbly if things change even slightly
[15:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	/shurg. At some point, people should be able to choose their own look and feel, with mods optionally made by WIndLIght
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	screenshots and a firstlook viewer for feedback....
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	but in the meantime, we would like to have something that looks decent
[15:16]	Squirrel Wood:	and give people the option to toggle between the UIs
[15:16]	Jansen Miles is very opinionated on UI look and feel.
[15:16]	Wyn Galbraith:	Viewer skins.
[15:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	testing of the GUI would be much easier if hte GUI could be run separately from the viewer...
[15:16]	Ciaran Laval:	Skinnable would be cool
[15:16]	Benja Kepler:	would that be an RC viewer too, Ben?
[15:16]	Wyn Galbraith loves skins.
[15:16]	Tree Kyomoon:	"decent" is so subjective... I would recomend leaving it as is and then just focus all the effort on skinnability
[15:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and on that note, TEST_HARNESS isn't defined
[15:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	but thats just my humble opinion...Im of course open to seeing any ideas
[15:17]	Tree Kyomoon:	and I dont want to be a big jerk
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Benja, I believe we'd try to do it as an RC
[15:17]	Benja Kepler:	great!
[15:18]	Dirk Talamasca:	I would bury that ability a bit past initial Orientation. New Residents learning Second Life and all using different UIs will be impossible to instruct.
[15:18]	Tree Kyomoon:	I totally agree Dirk
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	good point Dirk
[15:18]	Tree Kyomoon:	different UI is practially all that defines an entire OS these days
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	Jansen, you said you're very opinionated on UI, do you like the current visual appearance?
[15:19]	Saijanai Kuhn:	for those who don't know, TEST_HARNESS is a warpper about an alternate main() in llcontrol.cpp that apparently sets the required functions to test the GUI without evoking the viewer
[15:19]	Tree Kyomoon:	interesting saij!
[15:20]	Saijanai Kuhn:	In order for anyone to factor out that framework without reinventing the wheel, we have to know what the text harness stuff does
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	why do you guys think we haven't seen more UI innovation coming from the open source community?
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	because it takes 5 minutes to test a single line of code
[15:21]	Tree Kyomoon:	because its a TON OF WORK and theres little financial gain to be had
[15:21]	Dirk Talamasca:	If when reworking or redesigning the GUI, do you think it is wise to allow residents to change placement of buttons or would this just be a skinning effort? Certainly if you move buttons and controls around ir renders information in the Knowledgebase useless and totally impractical to maintain and update.
[15:21]	Squirrel Wood:	I guess the whole UI part isn't all that modular either. If it was, replacing parts would be a lot easier?
[15:21]	Tree Kyomoon:	speaking as someone who actually has to build those thousands of tiny buttons people take for granted
[15:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I have a spiffy additin to the LSL editor that would benefit virtually all scripters, but it is almost faster for me to factor out the damned framework than to code it directly
[15:22]	Squirrel Wood:	xml based UI configuration.... define where each button goes.
[15:22]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes squirrel! Modularity would make some bits customizable that were simple, while leaving the complex bits as they are
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	most of the UI is defined in XML already
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	it's not very well documented
[15:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that exists for the most part. To make it better, you have to divorce the GUI from the viewer
[15:22]	Tree Kyomoon:	yes, it should run as an independant process
[15:22]	Saijanai Kuhn:	otherwise you run into what I am running into: spending most of your time waiting for the client to login rather than coding
[15:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Modules also make it easier to fix problems and add features.
[15:23]	Tree Kyomoon:	so that the heavy viewer can crash, but the ui is still usable...again for chat an streaming audio /video etc.
[15:23]	Ciaran Laval:	As long as their well documented
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	every time I hit the compile button, I have to log-in in order to test anything, even an xml modification
[15:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's an idea, voice hangs on for a bit after a viewer crash. Like it's the last thing to get turned off.
[15:24]	Tree Kyomoon:	Linden Labs needs to hire us I think. :)
[15:24]	Dirk Talamasca:	And with so many different configurations who will document them? The current KB is not even properly documented
[15:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	We could be our own studio.
[15:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	Bones&Brains.
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	Don't forget to put some nuts in!
[15:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Benjamin, do you think you could get the test harness code released to opensource? Apparently SOMEONE knows how to bypass the viewer
[15:24]	Tree Kyomoon:	perfect, as I have no brains
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	and carrots for the ponies!
[15:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	AH yes NuttyBones&Brains.
[15:25]	Benja Kepler:	Benjamin, how does LL handle all these XML files? are they mapped to a database?
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	Saijanai, that would be a better question for Rob
[15:25]	Jansen Miles:	Benjamin: sorry, missed that -- actually yes. I find the current color scheme quite pleasing, although white on medium grey as the principle text area can get a bit fatiguing. The font is perfect, the tear-off menus are great. Icons are a bit ghetto and could use some work.
[15:25]	Wyn Galbraith:	Oh ponies... NuttyCarrotCakeBones&Brains Studio.
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	Benja, what do you mean how do we "handle the xml"
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	the xml is in a folder in the SL install, you can go look at it right now if you want
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	and "skin" the UI
[15:25]	Wyn Galbraith likes the icons.
[15:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ascii font is ok. unicode is far from perfect because you can't rpedict which client has what fonts, even in the same OS
[15:26]	Benja Kepler:	well, you said the UI is defined in XML - and there are a lot aren't there? so do you have them mapped to datasets in a db or what?
[15:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	nice can we mess with it?
[15:26]	Dirk Talamasca:	You can already change your button colors and text in the Debug Menu
[15:26]	Wyn Galbraith:	I like that 'Skin the UI'.
[15:26]	Saijanai Kuhn:	a GUI builder is impossible to create currently, because of the viewer-lanuch issue
[15:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	I dont want skin.
[15:26]	Wyn Galbraith:	Not you Tree, your viewer.
[15:26]	Ciaran Laval:	lol Tree
[15:26]	Tree Kyomoon:	gotcha
[15:26]	Turtle: Hello, Avatar!
[15:27]	Wyn Galbraith:	Hey turtle.
[15:27]	clock second hand: Hello, Avatar!
[15:27]	Wyn Galbraith wonders why the sky gets so orange.
[15:27]	Tree Kyomoon:	sorry ben didnt mean to overwhelm you, you kind of asked and I opened a can of worms...im not very polite sometimes
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	Saijanai, do you think you could create a testing utility for loading arbitrary xml files in the viewer?
[15:28]	Wyn Galbraith:	Worms come with bones.
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	that way you wouldn't have to restart the viewer over and over
[15:28]	Saijanai Kuhn wonders if anyone besides him has looked at the client code
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	no, this is great discussion Tree
[15:28]	Tree Kyomoon:	/I havent looked at it myself saij
[15:28]	Saijanai Kuhn:	it shouldnt' be in the viewer at all, at least as "the viewer" is defined currently
[15:28]	Ciaran Laval:	I haven't looked at the client code at all
[15:28]	Wyn Galbraith:	Not yet.
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	"the viewer" is this massive afterthought class that runs all of second life. It is a dark hole into which all classes fall
[15:29]	Tree Kyomoon:	the viewer should work like quicktime, or media player, its just a viewer with no buttons or minimal controls, the rest is other apps or a DHTML /flash layer
[15:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and there is no easy way to separate out the viewer from the window from the whatever. There's not even an event loop defined.
[15:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	you should be able to embed a "viewer" into any device
[15:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	My fear is that when an event loop IS defined it will be again, bonded with superglue to the viewer
[15:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you should also be able to run the GUI without running the viewer
[15:30]	Tree Kyomoon:	exactly saij...thats my point
[15:31]	Tree Kyomoon:	plus then you could run a localized version of the viewer for building/scripting and testing
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	What I would like to see in the edit window is an option to set/edit Prim attributes (particle effects, hovertext and the like) without having to use scripts for it. I'm sure this is something that can be done... mayhaps hide it in the debug menu under "Advanced Edit Mode" or something...
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	Saijanai, I'm not sure if this is in the release build but there's a debug tool where you can hit Ctrl-T on the login screen and it will open a test XML file called test.xml
[15:31]	Tree Kyomoon:	you could have a "grid" file on your desktop
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but only for existing xml stuff, I blieve
[15:31]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but if not, I'll certainly try that
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	you can edit the test.xml file to try out different UI layouts, etc.
[15:32]	Tree Kyomoon imagines saving little grids in folders on my computer
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	there's also a command in the debug menus for opening an arbitrary XML file but it doesn't appear to work
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd love get that working so that I could mockup new UIs in the Viewer
[15:32]	Tree Kyomoon:	yeah yeah! WSIWYG skin editor!
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'm working on an enitirely new composit widget that gets evoked by a button at the bottom of the LSL editor inplace of that 200+ item list called "insert..."
[15:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	that would be awesome
[15:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	you could build somethign like that in flash pretty easily
[15:33]	Tree Kyomoon:	well... I could
[15:33]	Wyn Galbraith:	Skins would be very interesting. The possilities are endless. For exampe Tree skin all bones and things ;)
[15:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	better would be to not have the viewer running at all. That wall, people like Cel Edman could use the framework to create cross-platofrm tools like sculptypaint using somethig other than java
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah, I agree Saijanai
[15:34]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be awesome to have an in world tool for sculpting sculpties
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and, when a plug-in API is defined, it could be optimzed to allow small applications to be instantly converted into plugins
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	I think there is one Tree
[15:34]	Tree Kyomoon:	Id love to design that one
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	at least I heard about one
[15:34]	Ciaran Laval:	I was talking to someone who claimed to have made all her sculpties inworld
[15:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there are two at least
[15:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	in world sculptie editors?
[15:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	no way
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	they are extermely slow and clumsy compared to what could be done
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	yep. there is one tool that basically "scans" a set of prims and provides you with an url to the generated sculpt map
[15:35]	Tree Kyomoon:	something like blender sculpt mode would be fantastic in world
[15:35]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's a phase where the data is exported to a website and converted to a scuptmapand reloaded
[15:35]	Ciaran Laval:	I asked her if she was using Blender and she said she'd done it all inworld
[15:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	well I use blender to create different shaped sculpties that I then paint with in world
[15:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	I use my sculpties like brushes
[15:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sorry if I'm a tad grumpy. I spent about 4 hours last night looking at the viewer code
[15:36]	Wyn Galbraith:	Doctor said don't do that Sai ;)
[15:36]	Tree Kyomoon:	Didnt pick up on grumpiness saij
[15:37]	Ciaran Laval:	lol Saijani it's funny because Tree was already on the same wavelength as you and you don't sound grumpy
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	wow you're a glutton for punishment Saijanai
[15:37]	Wyn Galbraith can be grumpier she's been fight heat and headache all week.
[15:37]	Wyn Galbraith:	*fighting
[15:37]	Tree Kyomoon loves SL, this is an awesome discussion you guys
[15:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I even generatede a class tree. ITs a tad overwhelming when you look at it that way
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	glad this is helpful, Tree
[15:38]	Wyn Galbraith thinks all conversations in SL are mostly helpful.
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	Saijanai, what are you hoping to build once your get the client code figured out?
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	SL loves you too, Tree. Every single bone. ^^
[15:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	do you post your chat logs? Im going to write up some more Jiras based on this I think
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	the scripting enhancements?
[15:38]	Wyn Galbraith:	done to the bone
[15:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	aww thanks squirrell
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Tree, I post the chat logs
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	let me get the link
[15:38]	Tree Kyomoon:	geeze Im red skelton over here
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	anyway, I'll look into the cmd/cntrol T thing at the splash screen. I didn't see it in the release version. Maybe its in the candidate version
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Benjamin_Linden
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm a little behind on posting
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	:-(
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Benjamin could you see if you can find out if TEST_HANRESS still exists and can be opensourced?
[15:39]	Tree Kyomoon:	heh heh
[15:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	TEST_NARNESS
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	HARNESS 9gh
[15:40]	Ciaran Laval:	lol
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	Saijanai, can you ask Rob about that?
[15:40]	Tree Kyomoon pictures benjamin as a "little behind"
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	new keyboar and its not working well
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	he would be the most knowledgeable
[15:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	KK
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	What I would like to see in the edit window is an option to set/edit Prim attributes (particle effects, hovertext and the like) without having to use scripts for it. I'm sure this is something that can be done... mayhaps hide it in the debug menu under "Advanced Edit Mode" or something...
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	lol @ Tree
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Squirrel, Torley has talked to me about that
[15:41]	Tree Kyomoon:	yeah that would be cool, and pretty simple too,as the particle attributes are just lists
[15:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	Good idea Squirrel.
[15:41]	Camber Front Door: Valentine Coppens is at the door.
[15:41]	Tree Kyomoon:	I totally agree that should be menuized
[15:41]	Squirrel Wood:	as for particle effects... have a button there that generates a ready-for-use particle script with the settings...
[15:41]	Tree Kyomoon:	you should do a jira on that
[15:41]	Zhin Murakami:	I would say that too Squirrel
[15:41]	Wyn Galbraith:	It would also be a way to standarize the scripts for better excution.
[15:42]	Ciaran Laval:	I'd like to see more default scripts available
[15:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	If you pushed a button for particles, set up the fields, the code could be pure.
[15:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that's where my little gizmo can come in
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood:	I'll sleep it over and may post a jira tomorrow at work
[15:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	yeah, all those "yadni's junkyard" ones were cleaned up and offered bettter at IBM's codestation
[15:42]	Tree Kyomoon:	if you are interestedd
[15:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Photoshop has features like that.
[15:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Just fill in the blanks.
[15:42]	Wyn Galbraith likes that alot.
[15:43]	Tree Kyomoon:	theres so many opportunities if SL just made it a bit less geeky to augment the functionality...that is we shouldnt have to run VB studio or something
[15:43]	Wyn Galbraith:	Would let new people be better creators out of the box.
[15:44]	Tree Kyomoon:	so many more could get involved in adding features
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	could even offer default settings for particles like... explosion, BLING, ...
[15:44]	Ciaran Laval:	Absolutely Wyn and it would encourage more people to learn more
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree Tree
[15:44]	Tree Kyomoon:	(flash and director make it really easy to create components and add ons for example)
[15:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	My little gizmo could be aumented to provide that kind of function.
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	and Wyn
[15:44]	Wyn Galbraith:	Exactly, the first time I looked at the particle enginee I just gasped.
[15:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	trivially. If I didn't have to wait 5 minutes to test each change
[15:45]	Wyn Galbraith:	It still overwhelms me sometimes, trying to get a certain effect.
[15:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	yeah the particle thing is really simple, its just really messy
[15:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	a drop down menu at least
[15:45]	Wyn Galbraith:	Hard to get a grip on what does what.
[15:45]	Tree Kyomoon:	even some previews
[15:46]	Wyn Galbraith nods.
[15:46]	Tree Kyomoon:	seems like a 1 day job
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn sighs
[15:46]	Ciaran Laval:	Benjamin what would you like to see in the UI? You implied you don't like the way it looks now
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you've never tried to code the client tree
[15:46]	Tree Kyomoon:	lol saij...thats defintely something that has to change
[15:46]	Jansen Miles:	Just what we need. More bling. :P
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	seconds
[15:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	bicyles
[15:46]	Tree Kyomoon:	/tree still thinks adobe needs to get with it and create a special "authoring" version of the client
[15:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	bicycles
[15:47]	Tree Kyomoon:	I mentioned that to philip and he thought it was a good idea but didnt want to put any resources on it
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	Ciaran, there are lots of things I don't like about the current UI
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	many of the features are flawed from a usability perspective
[15:48]	Tree Kyomoon:	imagine having photoshop integrated right in the client
[15:48]	Saijanai Kuhn:	in my opnion the client UI could change drasically overnight if the viewer was divorced from the rest of the framework
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	there are inconsistencies in the way we implement context menus, tooltips, etc.
[15:48]	Tree Kyomoon:	and being able to edit images IN WORLD
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	the menu structure isn't well organized
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	the toolbar doesn't have iconography
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	Search is quite poor
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	Inventory is hard to manage
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	there's a lot of clutter on the main screen
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	the build tools are over-complicated
[15:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	it all goes back to factoring the GUI away from the viewer
[15:49]	Benja Kepler:	any progress on Chat History name, Benjamin?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	but beyond all *that*
[15:49]	Ciaran Laval:	lol
[15:49]	Benja Kepler:	you asked about that last week?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	I find the visual appearance abysmal
[15:49]	Wyn Galbraith:	Inventory is a nightmare. I even dream in RL about it.
[15:49]	Wyn Galbraith:	Looking for a solution.
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	too dark and dreary and oppressive
[15:49]	Ciaran Laval:	Inventory definitely needs improving
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	the graphics are outdated
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn sighs again. They just don't get it
[15:50]	Tree Kyomoon:	hey for what it is, its actually not too bad considering the size of Linden Labs and all the issues
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	who doesn't get it Sai?
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree Tree, it's pretty amazing that it works at all, considering how complicated it is
[15:50]	Wyn Galbraith:	I need to jira an idea, how about we don't dupicate items that are copy in outfits, what if we just referenced one item in many places?
[15:50]	Tree Kyomoon:	linden labs just needs to let go
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	and it has a certain level of consistency with itself, in its own twisted way
[15:50]	Tree Kyomoon:	let the community build the UI and focus on making that a possibility
[15:51]	Ciaran Laval:	Like Microsoft Exchange is supposed to with emails Wyn.
[15:51]	Tree Kyomoon:	delegate
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	there are whole teams in the company focused on that goal, Tree
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	but I'm not sure that guarantees we'll get a usable UI
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	I worry abou that
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	reflecting Dirk's concerns
[15:51]	Wyn Galbraith:	Right so even if an item is copy, don't copy without asking, reference it instead.
[15:51]	Saijanai Kuhn:	everyone is talking about how we need this feature or that feature. Such features would take a few minute sto implement if there was a "hellow world" window available
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	around having a hundred different UIs in the wild
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	how do you educate people on that?
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	how do you support it as a company?
[15:51]	Tree Kyomoon:	theres no guarantees in life, but you have the best chance if someone like Frog or some huge design outfit takes it on
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	A Contest! Let the community send in ideas for a better UI ?
[15:52]	Ciaran Laval:	Yep I like that idea Wyn makes a lot of sense
[15:52]	Wyn Galbraith:	Would save the inventory problem.
[15:52]	Ciaran Laval:	Benjamin I think you have to draw the line somewhere on what you can support
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm actually talking to a few large design companies to help us
[15:52]	Wyn Galbraith:	So unless you wanted to change an item there's no reason to copy it because you like it in an outfit.
[15:52]	Tree Kyomoon:	let people charge for their UI design, sell clients
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	this is the project proposal
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	a contest: let the viewer be divorced from the GUI and 200 new UI's could appear in a week
[15:52]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and I'm not exagerating by much either
[15:52]	Tree Kyomoon:	make a business model to support it
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Interface_Improvements
[15:52]	Wyn Galbraith listens to Benjamine.
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	but Sai, do we *want* 200 UIs?
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	or one outstanding one?
[15:53]	Wyn Galbraith has so manyp copies of her dang free foot wings.
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	I think we need at least one quality reference implementation
[15:53]	Wyn Galbraith:	*many
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	shrug. That's the rice you pay for creating a rational programming system
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	for people that don't care to dink around with skins, etc.
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	most such UIs won't be used anywone
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	exactly
[15:53]	Ciaran Laval:	It depends upon what you change in a UI, if the core functionality is the same across the board but just mods are different then it would work.
[15:53]	Valentine Coppens:	I think there should be a permanent one with improvement, but having someone build their own UI should be welcoming
[15:53]	Ciaran Laval:	Like WoW with its add ons
[15:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	given the option most people dont use skins unless they really hate their UI
[15:53]	Saijanai Kuhn stamps his foot and looks peeved
[15:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	BUT people love add ons
[15:53]	Tree Kyomoon:	look at facebook
[15:54]	Zhin Murakami shudders as she hears WoW.
[15:54]	Ciaran Laval:	Add ons are cool but the core UI is the same
[15:54]	Valentine Coppens:	people should be able to make their own UI...
[15:54]	Wyn Galbraith loves WoW, but hasn't played online.
[15:54]	Benja Kepler:	"browser-like concept" looks about right - then everything within it is customisable
[15:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	nothing can happen without a ton of work unless the GUI and viewer are divorced
[15:54]	Wyn Galbraith loves Warcraft rather, "It's one of the few piece of software I can't break.
[15:54]	Tree Kyomoon:	would be cool if the SL UI looked like Aperature
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	Sai, I agree with you
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	and that work is planned
[15:55]	Tree Kyomoon:	but thats just my preference
[15:55]	Wyn Galbraith:	Can't wait or the windthing to come in.
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	but *my* job, in the meantime, is to try and make the Viewer more usable
[15:55]	Zhin Murakami where caught in WoW for a while and still cant get those bight colours off her retina.
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Wyn, Windlight is *fantastic*!
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I can't overemphasize that enough
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree that the UI should be highly customizable
[15:55]	Tree Kyomoon:	have you talked to Apple or Steve Jobs? Would he help out?
[15:55]	Wyn Galbraith:	GUI should be separated from the viewer.
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	but there also needs to be a good baseline
[15:56]	Wyn Galbraith has a thing for SL skies as it is.
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	so people can pick it up and just use it
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	somehow I don't think Steve Jobs wants to help us :-)
[15:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	there's no such thing as a "good baseline without a good underlying design. The ccurrent framework is ok, until the last step, and "then a miracle happe3ns"
[15:56]	Dirk Talamasca:	Me either Benjamin.. It is hard enough teaching people to use SL as it is... Change is good if it is intuitive, not necessarily because it is cool.
[15:56]	Wyn Galbraith:	I've been thinking of introducing SL to the elderly. The easier it is for us the easier it will be for them, if they're not up to speed on using computers.
[15:57]	Tree Kyomoon:	he should, he usually gets "cool" so Im shocked they aret here in a big way
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	Sai, I think we're talking about two different things
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm not talking about the UI architecture
[15:57]	Ciaran Laval:	Steve Jobs doesn't seem like the sort of person who would fit into the LL type of climate
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm talking about the User Experience
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	which is independent of the technology
[15:57]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's Mr. Job's Lost then.
[15:57]	Saijanai Kuhn:	er, if you can't crate teh user experience using the current technology, then it is NOT independent of the technology
[15:57]	Wyn Galbraith:	User experience should be effortless.
[15:57]	Benja Kepler:	a clean interface that unfolds....if you need to go deeper
[15:58]	Benja Kepler:	so a first-timer will just explore
[15:58]	Benja Kepler:	then build on that
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	you're right, Sai, we are *dependent* on the technology to a certain extent
[15:58]	Wyn Galbraith:	That was me, I explored at first.
[15:58]	Tree Kyomoon:	yeah the trick is figuring out what needs to show up first
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	so we do need a good UI architecture
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	but they are separate design problems
[15:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	a very great extent. My little widgit is a perfect example
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	Benja, that's what's in my proposal, have you read it?
[15:58]	Wyn Galbraith:	UI is like icing on the cake, it needs to be pretty and not melt.
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Interface_Improvements
[15:58]	Dirk Talamasca:	You have to spend time with new residents to know that.
[15:58]	Benja Kepler:	I am reading it now
[15:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	theres defintiely some obvious thing, like the map search and search should be integrated
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I should have been done with the GUI about an hour after I started, even hand-coding everythign without using XML
[15:59]	Valentine Coppens:	some residents dont really stay, they try it and leave
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Tree
[15:59]	Tree Kyomoon:	and 'disable camera constraints" shoudl always be on for everyone
[15:59]	Ciaran Laval:	Isn't the whole search function going to change shortly anyway?
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	then the guts, which is quite close to what people were requesting for a particle template, would be the only hard part
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	Search is changing, yes
[15:59]	Wyn Galbraith:	Which is why there should be an easy UI. One maybe that has training wheels for a while, similar to what happens when you log in the first time.
[15:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	instead, the hard part is simply sitting on my hands, testing a single line of code
[16:00]	Valentine Coppens:	Wyn: like a video tutorial of the UI ?
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I can't imainge that anyone here "gets" what I am sayig or you would all be screaming about it as well
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	but let's just say, theoretically, Sai, that we have this perfect UI architecture
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	we still need to design the actual UI
[16:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	Not exactly, more like flyout helps, things like that.
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	who talked about "perfect?"
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	that's what I'm trying to do
[16:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	below average would be acceptable
[16:00]	Tree Kyomoon:	a video walkthrough yes! like that Ipod one
[16:00]	Wyn Galbraith:	It does that now sort of.
[16:00]	Benja Kepler:	calm down, Saijanai
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	ok maybe "perfect" is overstating :-)
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm an optimist!
[16:01]	Benja Kepler:	that's good
[16:01]	Valentine Coppens:	hmm maybe implement a first time video tutorial for the first SL user
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	let's just say, "workable"
[16:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	bingo
[16:01]	Valentine Coppens:	and if they want to go back to it, itll be on the secondlife.com website
[16:01]	Wyn Galbraith:	Like create an alt and log in open inventory for the first time, you get a little prompt about inventory.
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	Sai, I think we do agree with you
[16:01]	Tree Kyomoon:	I think it will get there Benjamin, you guys are so open to resident feedback that its only a matter of time
[16:01]	Ciaran Laval:	The UI needs to be intuitive enough to get new users past orientation island very quickly
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	but we are trying to solve different problems
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	related but different
[16:01]	Valentine Coppens:	prompt wouldnt do much, most people ignore that
[16:02]	Valentine Coppens:	a detailed video would get people hooked on and actually read what SL is about
[16:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	theres already lots of in world orientations that are much better than orientation island
[16:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'm not convinced of that. MY issue needs solving before you can work on your issue in any rational way
[16:02]	Dirk Talamasca:	Video is rather impractical. Sometimes it will not work and you have language barriers.
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	we do have an internal project to create a video tutorial library
[16:02]	Wyn Galbraith didn't, "and I'm a old software hand. Famous for using software without manuals.
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	I think you're probably right about that too, Sai
[16:02]	Valentine Coppens:	well theres the Tranlator Liasons :)
[16:02]	Ciaran Laval:	A fun task would help new residents
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	but there's no reason we can't be thinking about UI design before we can actually build it
[16:02]	Tree Kyomoon:	lindens should just have links to those places at orientation island
[16:02]	Wyn Galbraith has to cool off her laptop and set the RL table for dinner.
[16:03]	Benja Kepler:	(my video "How to leave Orientation Island" is popular)
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	in fact, we should be doing some of this in parallel, so we're ready with a design when the technology is in place
[16:03]	Dirk Talamasca:	15 Liasons and 30,000 new residents a day.. not gonna cut it
[16:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Cool.
[16:03]	Saijanai Kuhn:	sure, as long as you realize that with the current implementation, nothing is possible without 10-x the work it should be taking
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	or, even better, so that the UI design and inform the UI architecture
[16:03]	Tree Kyomoon:	lol cool title benja!
[16:03]	Valentine Coppens:	im sure they are able to view it aleast one time
[16:03]	Ciaran Laval:	I was stuck on Orientation island for a while before I found that video
[16:03]	Wyn Galbraith tried to become a Liaison. :)
[16:03]	Benja Kepler grins
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	Bedtime for me. Its past 1am
[16:03]	Valentine Coppens knows Spanish fluently
[16:03]	Wyn Galbraith:	Sleep sweet Squirrel.
[16:03]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, we're out of time
[16:03]	Wyn Galbraith knows English and Geek.
[16:04]	Valentine Coppens:	^^
[16:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Fluently
[16:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	buy Squirrell!
[16:04]	Zhin Murakami:	lol
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for the spirited discussion folks!
[16:04]	Ciaran Laval:	Thanks Benjamin
[16:04]	Benja Kepler:	ok! take care benjamin
[16:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	thanks benjamin!
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	like I said, I'm grumpy from 4 hours looking at the client code
[16:04]	Zhin Murakami:	bye Benjamin
[16:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	Bye Benjamin, same trip home.
[16:04]	Tree Kyomoon:	jeez an hour already
[16:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	thanks for hosting this, Benjamin
[16:04]	Benja Kepler noticed Saijanai's grumpiness
[16:04]	Wyn Galbraith kicks Sai's turtle.
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	believe me, Sai, our code makes me grumpy every day :-)
[16:04]	Benja Kepler:	awww
[16:04]	Turtle: what you need?
[16:04]	Turtle: seriously, what do you want?
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	time flies...
[16:04]	Wyn Galbraith:	TAke care of him Turtle.
[16:04]	Benjamin Linden:	I appreciate your help, I really do
[16:05]	Petmech: Beep!
[16:05]	Tree Kyomoon:	buy benjamin
[16:05]	Benjamin Linden:	ok gotta run all, take care!