User:Enus Linden/Office Hours/2008 August 15

From Second Life Wiki

• [9:37] Enus Linden: wassa Locklainn
• [9:38] Enus Linden: hi Sai
• [9:38] Enus Linden: you aren't doing your job spamming
• [9:38] Enus Linden: which is fine by me :)
• [9:38] Waya Sion: greetings Locklainn
• [9:38] JayR Cela: lol / dont pick on Sai :_) he does a great job :_)
• [9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: sorry :-(
• [9:38] Locklainn Linden: hi everyone
• [9:38] Enus Linden: i <3 Sai more than most
• [9:38] Saijanai Kuhn: snifs piteously
• [9:39] JayR Cela: hi there Locklain
• [9:39] Enus Linden: so
• [9:39] Enus Linden: i have no agenda for today
• [9:39] Enus Linden: might be good to check in on how the lib looks
• [9:39] Enus Linden: and what folks are paying attention to
• [9:40] Enus Linden: and what needs attention
• [9:40] Enus Linden: other items folks wanna chat about?
• [9:40] Locklainn Linden: cool
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: we might thinkg roughly about how to get to some release
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: and of course we haven't further discussed the process proposal
• [9:40] Tao Takashi: so I will post that to the list with a link and ask for feedback
• [9:40] Locklainn Linden: this is the design/coding discussion correct?
• [9:41] Enus Linden: and we defered the doc discussion last week din we?
• [9:41] Tao Takashi: yes, Enus, Locklainn
• [9:41] Tao Takashi: and I forgot to post that link back then :-/
• [9:41] Locklainn Linden: cool
• [9:41] Locklainn Linden: then we should maybe talk abou tthe refactoring for the message lib
• [9:42] Enus Linden: so let's do: process proposal, docs, refactoring, and then the current state of things
• [9:42] Locklainn Linden: nice, sounds good
• [9:42] Enus Linden: what is outstanding wrt the process proposal?
• [9:42] Tao Takashi: refactoring is probably part of how we can get to a release
• [9:42] Enus Linden: i think we collectively like the approach
• [9:42] Tao Takashi: well, then we can say "do it"
• [9:43] Enus Linden: i need to dig up a link for reference
• [9:43] Enus Linden: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/pyogp/2008-August/000135.html
• [9:43] Tao Takashi: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pyogp/Client_Lib/Development_Process
• [9:43] Enus Linden: all in favor, say "ja"
• [9:43] Enus Linden:  :P
• [9:43] Tao Takashi: we probably still need to revise it while doing it
• [9:44] Enus Linden: that is a given
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: I actually has some enhancements but might post it to the list
• [9:44] Enus Linden: that would be great Tao, thanks
• [9:44] Locklainn Linden: well,
• [9:44] Waya Sion: it's over my head right now so don't count my vote ;)
• [9:44] Tao Takashi: but in general I am of course in favor ;-)
• [9:44] Locklainn Linden: I'm in favor, but what is the process for completing the process :)
• [9:44] Enus Linden: so we currently are in the middle of some things that aren't really following the process, but we've moved that direction
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: I would propose that I post to the list, everybody thinks about it and we can then ratify it next week
• [9:45] Enus Linden: perfect
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: in the meantime we are not starting any new big things anyway I guess
• [9:45] Enus Linden: that does mean though that we need active engagement on the list
• [9:45] Locklainn Linden: excpet for refactoring
• [9:45] Locklainn Linden: that's pretty big :)
• [9:45] Enus Linden: right, refactoring is exempt
• [9:45] Enus Linden: lol
• [9:45] Tao Takashi: yes but that's already ungoing
• [9:46] Locklainn Linden: grandfathered?
• [9:46] Tao Takashi:  :-)
• [9:46] Locklainn Linden: well its not
• [9:46] Locklainn Linden: cuz its in branches
• [9:46] Locklainn Linden: in proposal stages
• [9:46] Enus Linden: but that is part of the process
• [9:46] Locklainn Linden: so, what I mean is, are there forms to fill out?
• [9:46] Locklainn Linden: things to wait for?
• [9:46] Tao Takashi: that's what I call ongoing ;-)
• [9:46] Locklainn Linden: etc etc
• [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, a reminder to all non-linens to see about getting an open source (free) license for WingIDE professional if you're contributing to pyogp
• [9:46] Enus Linden: pimping software eh sai?
• [9:46] Enus Linden: is it any good?
• [9:46] Saijanai Kuhn: I've been using it. Seems to work pretty well. Was going to test access to the svn via it
• [9:47] Enus Linden: cool. if you liek it, write something up about it on the wiki for others to see
• [9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: on the Mac it uses X11, so the interface is a tad clunky, but no worse than Eclipse's
• [9:47] Enus Linden: so process discussion will follow this week
• [9:47] Saijanai Kuhn: and its python-oriented through and through
• [9:47] Enus Linden: how about docs tao?
• [9:48] Tao Takashi: you mean how we document things?
• [9:48] Locklainn Linden: your library there
• [9:48] Locklainn Linden: whatever it was called
• [9:48] Tao Takashi: as you know I like sphinx quite a bit ;-)
• [9:48] Locklainn Linden: right, that one haha
• [9:48] Enus Linden: link?
• [9:48] Tao Takashi: [1]
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: and docs on it here: [2]
• [9:49] Enus Linden: the way i understand it (in like 2 seconds of thinking about it), the code is required to be clearly commented with docstrings yes?
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: no
• [9:49] Enus Linden: ok
• [9:49] Enus Linden: needs to read then
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: you can import such module docs if you want to
• [9:49] Tao Takashi: and if they are already there it makes sense
• [9:50] Tao Takashi: but in general you write textfiles
• [9:50] Tao Takashi: like here: [3]
• [9:51] Tao Takashi: I think the syntax is pretty simple
• [9:51] Tao Takashi: look at general.txt for instance
• [9:51] Tao Takashi:  :: at the end means that a code block is following (indented) and ---- and === are headlines
• [9:52] Tao Takashi: and ``something`` will put this into a code block or something like this
• [9:52] Tao Takashi: the output of this is here: [4]
• [9:53] Enus Linden: i'd be happy to test this out further. i like how it can be included in the repo
• [9:53] Enus Linden: are there ways of prettying up the html output?
• [9:53] Locklainn Linden: Tao, aren't these html files generated automatically?
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: seems to becoming quite common to use it these days, I guess for a reason ;-)
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: Locklainn: yes
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: I think you can change the template for it
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: actually I am pretty sure but I haven't looked at it yet
• [9:54] Tao Takashi: I was more concentrated on content ;-)
• [9:54] Enus Linden: lime green just makes my stomach turn...
• [9:54] Enus Linden:  :)
• [9:54] Locklainn Linden: haha
• [9:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Ooh Qarl cancelled office hours, but llDetected for html-on-a-prim is on the beta
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: likes it :)
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: but yep, this probably is a simple CSS change ;-)
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: I will post links and such to the list as well
• [9:55] Tao Takashi: make html should generate itbtw
• [9:55] Enus Linden: so, let's see about expanding the docs and see how we like it as we move forward?
• [9:56] Tao Takashi: or make pdf but you need to have various latex bits installed
• [9:56] Locklainn Linden: so, are these the type of docs you wanted me to write enus?
• [9:56] Enus Linden: user oriented tech docs are perfect. we need them for sure.
• [9:56] Locklainn Linden: ok cool
• [9:56] Enus Linden: and the wiki can be high level project oriented
• [9:57] Enus Linden: but can point to these docs as needed
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: yep
• [9:57] Locklainn Linden: seems before I start docing the refactoring should be done
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: you can also doctest the docs
• [9:57] Locklainn Linden: otherwise, have to redo all teh docs...
• [9:57] Locklainn Linden: docing docs, awesome
• [9:57] Enus Linden: agreed there lock, refactoring is important atm
• [9:57] Locklainn Linden: yea
• [9:57] Tao Takashi: I would suggtest to write simple doctest before doing the refactoring
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: basically what we mailed back and forth
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: you don't need full docs at this stage but I think it's cool to have some examples of how you'd use it
• [9:58] Tao Takashi: basically following the process proposal here ;-)
• [9:58] Enus Linden: this segways into the refactoring discussion nicely
• [9:58] Locklainn Linden: yea, that's all in the proposals
• [9:59] Locklainn Linden: and I put some more tests in my branch to show how they are being used
• [9:59] Enus Linden: i think we've tacitly arrived at a point where such a thing is going to occur...?
• [10:00] Tao Takashi: you mean refactoring is going to occur?
• [10:00] Enus Linden: yeah...
• [10:00] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Meaning of Refactoring
• [10:00] Enus Linden: lock, is that your understanding as well
• [10:01] Locklainn Linden: yea,
• [10:01] Locklainn Linden: I mean
• [10:01] Enus Linden: XL: the mesaging system was written in a certain manner. refactoring would mean rewritting it, so that it is works and is used in a different way
• [10:01] Locklainn Linden: we haven't talked about it as much as I'd like to
• [10:01] XLR8RRICK Hudson: thanks
• [10:01] Locklainn Linden: but I think we are at the point to look at my proposal and Tao's and pull the
• [10:01] Locklainn Linden: best characteristics of each
• [10:02] Enus Linden: well, that's what the mailing list is for no?
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: yep, probably we would have discussed this more in advance
• [10:02] Locklainn Linden: yea, bu tnot as much as I'd liek to be enus :)
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: yes, I think we are on a good path
• [10:02] Locklainn Linden: yea, good path
• [10:02] Locklainn Linden: just not htere yet
• [10:02] Enus Linden: i'm agnostic myself, and would like to see the decision made via mailing list discussion
• [10:02] Enus Linden: and made soon.
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: and we probably need more discussion around it
• [10:02] Enus Linden: what's needed to get there?
• [10:02] Locklainn Linden: yea, well Tao and I were discussing sockets,
• [10:02] Locklainn Linden: which the messaging depends on
• [10:02] Tao Takashi: I am not sure there is _the_ decision
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: there are maybe more a couple of smaller ones
• [10:03] Enus Linden: there is _a_ decision
• [10:03] Locklainn Linden: right,
• [10:03] Enus Linden: which of course will evolve
• [10:03] Locklainn Linden: like i said, we have to pull best parts of Taos and my proposals
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: and discussing what in which case is the best for a component
• [10:03] Locklainn Linden: and refactor to that
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: in the end there will be _a_ result ;-)
• [10:03] Locklainn Linden: in the end there will be ONLY ONE
• [10:03] Enus Linden: _yay_!
• [10:03] Tao Takashi: maybe not _the_ result when we look back a year from now though ;-)
• [10:03] Locklainn Linden: right
• [10:03] Enus Linden: so, to the mailing list with that as well.
• [10:04] Locklainn Linden: ok then
• [10:04] Locklainn Linden: speaking of that,
• [10:04] Locklainn Linden: I'm having problems committing code to my branch
• [10:04] Locklainn Linden: and in fact it was hard for me to create the branch
• [10:04] Locklainn Linden: kept getting internal server 500 errors
• [10:05] Enus Linden: we could use a branching process overview somewhere on the wiki btw
• [10:05] Enus Linden: had you seen the 500s before lock?
• [10:05] Enus Linden: or is this new?
• [10:05] Locklainn Linden: never with trunk
• [10:05] Enus Linden: robla would be the one to talk to
• [10:05] Locklainn Linden: I think sl has a wiki on branching already enus
• [10:05] Locklainn Linden: ok
• [10:05] Locklainn Linden: will talk to robla then
• [10:05] Enus Linden: cool, then we should point to that wiki somewhere in the pyogp wikis
• [10:06] Locklainn Linden: will do
• [10:06] Enus Linden: so the current state of Things in pyogp overall....
• [10:06] Enus Linden: i think that the refactoring discussion is blocking other work atm
• [10:07] Enus Linden: not the discussion, but the lack of a final state in the lib
• [10:07] Tao Takashi: not sure, it's pretty modular in the message system
• [10:07] Tao Takashi: I was actually going to add some logging
• [10:07] Locklainn Linden: yep
• [10:07] Tao Takashi: well, yes. for some release it needs to be finished first of course
• [10:07] Locklainn Linden: Tao, not sure about what? being blocked?
• [10:08] Enus Linden: logging and exception handling are other areas needing attention as well yes
• [10:08] Tao Takashi: now I don't know what you mean, Locklainn ;-)
• [10:08] Tao Takashi: but I thinkg we all mean the same
• [10:08] Locklainn Linden: "not sure, it's pretty modular"
• [10:09] Tao Takashi: well, I meant that the msg sys refactoring is not blocking logging, exception handling etc.
• [10:09] Locklainn Linden: ohhh
• [10:09] Tao Takashi: except maybe time wise
• [10:09] Locklainn Linden: no
• [10:09] Saijanai Kuhn: well, you can certainly play around with testing various messages even before the refactoring if that's what you mean
• [10:09] Locklainn Linden: we are only blocked so that we don't have to go back and refactor lots of new code
• [10:09] Locklainn Linden: we COULD move forward with the current messaging
• [10:09] Tao Takashi: and that of course logging and exceptions then also needed to be added to the msg system
• [10:09] Locklainn Linden: but then we'd have to change it all
• [10:10] Locklainn Linden: so yea, logging and excpetions are not dependant on messaging, so they are not blocked
• [10:10] Tao Takashi: I'd rather not finish the refactoring before doing it in 0.2
• [10:10] Tao Takashi: and we might also have to wait for some auth changes
• [10:10] Locklainn Linden: what is 0.2?
• [10:10] Enus Linden: that might is a will have to
• [10:10] Enus Linden: auth changes are coming
• [10:10] Saijanai Kuhn: are we even at 0.1 release yet?
• [10:10] Enus Linden: i think not myself
• [10:11] Locklainn Linden: release? 0.1? 0.2?
• [10:11] Enus Linden: so 0.1
• [10:11] Locklainn Linden: release for Pyogp?
• [10:11] Enus Linden: that sounds like a milestone target of sorts
• [10:12] Enus Linden: and in my mind, that sounds like a set of features that are functional and enables certain features to a consumer of the lib
• [10:12] Saijanai Kuhn: I'd say we're about 0.05 right now. Most of the bits are workign, but are they workign together as we would like?
• [10:12] Tao Takashi: I knew that this discussion was coming up but: this will never be finished and I think we should simply go with 0.1 now ;-)
• [10:12] Locklainn Linden: so
• [10:13] Tao Takashi: and go to 0.26 is needed before we get a 1.0 which might represent the final OGP spec
• [10:13] Locklainn Linden: maybe we should have defined points to say 0.1 is - this feature and that feature
• [10:13] Locklainn Linden: 0.2 will be when we have feature a and feature b
• [10:13] Tao Takashi: the OGP spec should get version numbers as well
• [10:13] Enus Linden: i'm not sure about that tao, we ned to talk about what that body of work should look like, and what state the features are in
• [10:13] Tao Takashi: then we could synchronize with it
• [10:14] Enus Linden: syncronizing would be great
• [10:14] Tao Takashi: of course it should be bound to features
• [10:14] Enus Linden: it makes total sense
• [10:14] Tao Takashi: so 0.1 might be auth, place_avatar and the message system
• [10:14] Enus Linden: right now, draft 2 of the ogp doc is at [5]
• [10:15] Tao Takashi: so it might be 0.2 ;-)
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Howabout 0.1 is when we get refactoring done and can login, TP and maintain prsence with all the messaging working?
• [10:15] Locklainn Linden: it may also be linked to jira tasks as well
• [10:15] Tao Takashi: all the messages?
• [10:15] Enus Linden: i agree that our .1 release should work per that doc, plus what sai just suggested
• [10:15] Tao Takashi: what does that mean? ;-)
• [10:15] Enus Linden: not all the messages
• [10:15] Saijanai Kuhn: not allthe messages, just hte system itself
• [10:15] Enus Linden: what sai said
• [10:15] Locklainn Linden: well, in the current ssystem, all the essages are done :)
• [10:15] Tao Takashi: that should be the case after refactoring I guess
• [10:15] Tao Takashi: and is already now, yep
• [10:16] Tao Takashi: so with this you can implement presence etc. as Locklainn showed
• [10:16] Locklainn Linden: right
• [10:16] Saijanai Kuhn: so .1 means we have a genunie do-nothing bot except login and TP, then we can start workign with new OGP and old legacy message implementation
• [10:16] Locklainn Linden: so, is now a good time to list what exactly IS done, and in what state?
• [10:16] Locklainn Linden: as enus was suggesting?
• [10:16] Tao Takashi: so besides refacoring not much should be missing.. but I would like to have logging and exceptions in there as well
• [10:16] Enus Linden: Yes
• [10:16] Enus Linden: and Yes
• [10:17] Enus Linden:  : )
• [10:17] Tao Takashi: sees some acks coming in
• [10:17] Enus Linden: let me roll all this up and update the wiki and post to the mailing list for discussion today
• [10:17] Tao Takashi: oh, and the new auth should probably be in
• [10:17] Tao Takashi: but I don't expect this to be big changes
• [10:18] Tao Takashi: as it would be unfortunate if we release 0.1 and the next day the LLAD has a new auth system in place
• [10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: should we include legacy login as part of .1 or is that not strictly part of hte project?
• [10:18] Enus Linden: not required as part of .1
• [10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
• [10:18] Enus Linden: i would like to see it in .2
• [10:18] Tao Takashi: I was thinking about moving this to pyogp.legacy or so
• [10:18] Locklainn Linden: so, have we defined 0.1?
• [10:18] Locklainn Linden: and 0.2?
• [10:18] Enus Linden: no
• [10:18] Locklainn Linden: ok, just making sure haha
• [10:18] Saijanai Kuhn: though, we should keep it in mind for a use case of the refactoring..
• [10:18] Tao Takashi: we have everything defined up to 5.87 ;)
• [10:19] Enus Linden: i'll post to the list what this all could look like for discussion later today
• [10:19] Enus Linden: .3 = all message handlers built :)
• [10:19] Saijanai Kuhn: refactoring should accomidate legacy login when/if we add it in
• [10:19] Locklainn Linden: haha riiiight enus
• [10:19] Tao Takashi: actually some stuff can also be in separate packages/eggs
• [10:19] Locklainn Linden: aka, finished client
• [10:19] Tao Takashi: and they might be released separately
• [10:19] Tao Takashi: like you would probably do with a client
• [10:19] Enus Linden: like what tao?
• [10:20] Tao Takashi: like pyogp.lib.agentdomain for instance
• [10:20] Enus Linden: that's a good question imo
• [10:20] Tao Takashi: there is no need to bind this to a base release
• [10:20] Enus Linden: do msg handlers exist in the .base lib, or in something like .client?
• [10:20] Tao Takashi: that's usually done like this in Zope and Plone which consists of many eggs
• [10:20] Locklainn Linden: my idea is a .client, not in base
• [10:20] Tao Takashi: but of course you do releases before a new (complete) Plone release
• [10:20] Enus Linden: i think so too lock
• [10:21] Tao Takashi: it might be in .client or maybe some extra .handlers package
• [10:21] Enus Linden: gosh, too much good stuff in this convo today
• [10:21] Enus Linden: i have summary work to do
• [10:21] Tao Takashi: as they might not only be used by a client
• [10:21] Locklainn Linden: i know
• [10:21] Tao Takashi: probably clients are not even part of the pyogp namespace
• [10:21] Enus Linden: so i have a different mtg in 5 or so
• [10:21] Tao Takashi: ok
• [10:21] Tao Takashi: and I should go home :)
• [10:21] Enus Linden: GO!
• [10:21] XLR8RRICK Hudson: we all know different things thats why we are all better together
• [10:21] Enus Linden: i;ll push as much to the list as i can today
• [10:22] Tao Takashi: cool, I will try to post about some topics as well like process and such
• [10:22] Tao Takashi: sphinx
• [10:22] Enus Linden: Thanks all for a good chat!
• [10:22] Enus Linden: OH
• [10:22] Enus Linden: btw
• [10:22] Enus Linden: our dear dear Locklainn
• [10:22] JayR Cela: thank you
• [10:22] Enus Linden: will be with us for 2 more weeks
• [10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: ackj?
• [10:22] Locklainn Linden: ... yep
• [10:22] Enus Linden: and then is off into the wild blue yonder
• [10:22] Saijanai Kuhn: /snif
• [10:23] Enus Linden: so, there is a deadline for you
• [10:23] Enus Linden:  : )
• [10:23] Locklainn Linden: yea
• [10:23] Locklainn Linden: gotta get Tao moving
• [10:23] Locklainn Linden:  :)
• [10:23] Enus Linden: use him, abuse him, and love him while you can
• [10:23] Locklainn Linden: yep
• [10:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: _ _ _ _
• [10:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: | | | | | | | |
• [10:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: | | | | ___ ___ | |__ | |
• [10:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: | |/\| | / _ \ / _ \ | __| | |
• [10:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: \ /\ / (@) | (@) | |_ |_|
• [10:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: \/ \/ \___/\___/\__| (_)
• [10:23] XLR8RRICK Hudson: Locklainn
• [10:23] Locklainn Linden: haha
• [10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: wheeps quietly
• [10:23] Locklainn Linden: Sai, your gonna have to take my place
• [10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: weeps*
• [10:23] Enus Linden: ok, that's it for me
• [10:23] Saijanai Kuhn: riiight
• [10:23] JayR Cela: best of luck to you Locklainn :_)
• [10:23] Enus Linden: thanks all
• [10:24] Locklainn Linden: thanks JayR
• [10:24] Locklainn Linden: bye everyone
• [10:24] JayR Cela: byee everyone :_)
• [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
• [10:24] Enus Linden: byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
• [10:24] Enus Linden: sai, can you post transcript?
• [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: kk
• [10:24] Enus Linden: tyvmly
• [10:24] Saijanai Kuhn: nply