User:Qie Niangao/Jack Linden Office Hour Transcript/2009-12-03

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Jack Linden: hey folks!

Ludmilia Zapedzki: hello Jack

Equinox Pinion: where did you get that from ardy :)

Equinox Pinion: hi jack

Driftwood Miles: Hello Jack :)

Charlene Trudeau: hi jack :)

Jack Linden: sorry I'm very slightly late - previous meeting overran a little

Ardy Lay: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Live_Data_Feeds

Equinox Pinion: thanks ardy

Jack Linden: did our US friends have a good thanksgiving?

Ardy Lay: http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/sl-statistical-charts/

Ardy Lay: Jack, <signups>17,440,802</signups> Where is everybody?

Jack Linden: hey Ardy

Jack Linden: what do you mean?

Kristaki Hudson: Good Evening...

Ludmilia Zapedzki: evening, Kristaki

Ardy Lay: An average of about ten thousand SecondLife accounts are created EVERY DAY.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: well, this does not mean they will buy land, Arty

Bronson Blackadder: not every seed that falls on the ground grows

Bronson Blackadder: lol

Kristaki Hudson: Hello guyz how are ya all Sir jack hello

Equinox Pinion: or stay and come back lol

Jack Linden: hi folks

Ardy Lay: With seventeen million fourhundred fourty thousand eight hundred two accounts in list right now, where is everybody at?

Melody Regent: so Jack, how are the new layouts for the script limits coming? Are you all getting a handle on how you want them done or still working on that?

Ludmilia Zapedzki: well, some create basic accounts

Ciaran Laval: Alts Ardy

Logger Sewell: hi all

Charlene Trudeau: basic accts can still own land on estate regions

Ludmilia Zapedzki: hello Logger

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes, totally, that's why they won't own mainland

Jack Linden: Well signups don't translate into active residents at 1:1 obviously, and we know we lose people in various ways. We've had strong gains in new registrations recently

Ardy Lay: How many people here met a "day zero account" yesterday and had a good experience with them?

Charlene Trudeau: that's one that works both ways, Ardy

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes, and some people can get lost when they come in second life for the first time

Equinox Pinion: i did for sure ardy

Charlene Trudeau: too many read those profiles and are immediately prejudiced against, too

Ardy Lay: I met 14. All of them are now banned.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: some quit and don't come back anymore

Alexxa Despres: I agree Charlene ;)

Equinox Pinion: many ludminlia

Charlene Trudeau: I've had new accounts positively cry because no one will talk to them and they don't know what to do

Jack Linden: we've a ton of stuff going on around new residents, for example the changes to the main logged out webpage

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes

Qie Niangao: Blondin said something interesting at his Zindra meeting... paraphrasing: Viewer 2.0 will be so different, there's no rush to bring in new people now since they'll just have to relearn the UI anyway, and too many would leave anyway, compared to the stickiness expected from 2.0.

Jack Linden: we're orientation experience is being worked on too

Ardy Lay: They are banned because of their activities when they came inworld.

Dennis Lagan: jack, could be, but i know that nearly all "newbies" i meet, and that are really a lot with the amount of sims we have, are alts. there was a time, where sl had a really big growth, where we indeed met a lot of REAL newbies.

Ciaran Laval: M said in his radio interview that things will look very different in six months too

Jack Linden: the new Viewer is far more browser-like in design and we do expect it to be much more friendly for new residents

Charlene Trudeau: yes, being able to ban by avatar age is a dual edged sword and that kind of prejudicial treatment is horrible

Ludmilia Zapedzki: the weak point with second life is user experience : the resident has to learn how to use a bunch of things

Jack Linden: so we're trying to balance that with making sure it's also still great for existing users

Ardy Lay: We do NOT ban by age!!!

Ludmilia Zapedzki: some can't stand, they can't get enough patience

Charlene Trudeau: I didn't say you did, ARdy

Charlene Trudeau: but many out there do

Marianne McCann: Hi, everyone

Marianne McCann grins

Ciaran Laval: Yeah, that's not going to happen Jack, people don't like change, even if evbentually they realise it was a good change

Ardy Lay: Be try to educate them in the TOS/CS but it's obvious what they are in SL for and that the have been here before.

Jack Linden: Dennis, i'd agree.. some proportion of new accounts are clearly alts. But not all.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes, not all

Equinox Pinion: and you stopped the mentor program which helped them jack...they need a human to talk with them when they start

Jack Linden: And as the grid gets larger and larger, the odds of meeting a new resident (or a Linden) go down

Ludmilia Zapedzki: I see nex residents everyday

Kristaki Hudson: yeah like finding a nail in the sea....

Ludmilia Zapedzki: and I can assure you I mentor new residents everyday

Alexxa Despres: I see grey people every day ;-P

Marianne McCann: Ya, I run across a fair amount of truly new folks in the BC hubs.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: sometimes it can happen we see alts, but generally they don't neep any help from us

Jack Linden: Ciaran, it'll definitely be a big change for people. But I think the 'classic' Viewer will still be working alongside for some time after launch

Charlene Trudeau: when will we get to beta it, Jack?

Ciaran Laval: Pitchforks will go up in sales again I predict

Jack Linden: Charlene, not sure. I expect that team will blog about it when they have a firm date

Melody Regent: timeline Jack?

Charlene Trudeau: speaking of pitchforks and sales.... is there any truth to the rumour about inventory restrictions coming down on us any time soon? I heard actual numbers beind discussed in concierge chatter channel the other day

Jack Linden: I don't have one for the new Viewer: depends how final dev and QA go - if we hit problems then obviously we'll want to fix those

Jack Linden: Charlene, no current plans for inventory limits. It's always one of those things that is talked about but right now we have no plans there

Drongle McMahon: What exciting land stuff are you doing, Jack, or do you have time to get back to the microplotters?

Charlene Trudeau: good, because that would be a critical blow to our economy we can't afford

Marianne McCann: ...and the camping/bots

Charlene Trudeau: even though I understand the reasons behind it

Ludmilia Zapedzki: well, yes, what about the bots ? (above all, some landbots who do not refund land on mistake) ?

Jack Linden: Drongle, most of my time recently has been in thinking of where and goes over the next few years, about the long term. We're doing a lot of planning and dersign around what a virtual experience should be in 3 or 5 years

Jack Linden: *land

Ludmilia Zapedzki: I still see the lands of those landbots for sale on first page

Jack Linden: Oh dear, too many spellos. Sorry. :)

Dennis Lagan: it doesn't take long though to clean your inventory a bit and delete thousands of items. at least with me. i maybe bought 200 things in 2.5 years time, all the rest are crappy freebies, copies, and notecards and landmarks that i could delete for ages

Melody Regent: we speak typeese Jack

Ciaran Laval: 5 years is a long time in this market Jack, I hope you have a plan B, C and D ;)

Charlene Trudeau: we learn to be fluent in typo in SL, Jack

Marianne McCann: Dennis - want to tackle mine next? I just got it down to 52k

Qie Niangao: Uh, well Jack, unless the plans are for land to go to hell in 3 to 5 years, there's still a lot of unfinished business.

Jack Linden: Charlene, when it comes to the problem of asset storage, there are other factors than just limits.. such as how long we retain content for accounts that leave etc

Charlene Trudeau: that's you, Dennis, what about content creators? or estate owners with no copy setting stuff that they have to store for the next season they change out, and so on

Jack Linden: But as i said, no plans there at the moment

Drongle McMahon: Well, here's an idea, it could be free of microlpots!

Ludmilia Zapedzki: O_o

Charlene Trudeau: then I'd recommend your first area of harshness on inventory would be a stated policy on storage for accounts that leave

Drongle McMahon: But that's for one year, not three, I hope.

Dennis Lagan: well, the in ventory window is a bitg failure ofcourse. if it would be more like a windowzs folder, with little previews of snapshots for example, scaling of icon sizes and so on, it would be so much easier to handle

Ciaran Laval: If the inventory was easier to manage that would help, whom an item is from and sorting by item type would be good

Melody Regent: Jack, asset issues are a huge deal. That is something that needs to be adressed sooner than later. I know we talked about the Server Classes changing and making the more even on the grid, what about asset issues?

Jack Linden: Qie, we're not ignoring the issues. Obviously there are short term things that we *must* handle, but when we design how to do those fixes we also need to be aware of the longer term

Jack Linden: For example, I'm very eager that we openup more of the controls to Estates over time - so that Estates build their own products rather than us selling specific products to them

Ciaran Laval: ?

Drongle McMahon: Will LL still be managing mainland in three years?

stormi Capalini: example?

Driftwood Miles: ?

Alexxa Despres: ??

Alexxa Despres: products?

Charlene Trudeau: what he's saying is maybe we buy a whole server and we design our region specs within the max they can handle ourselves

Ludmilia Zapedzki: hummm

Ciaran Laval: ?!!!!!?

Ludmilia Zapedzki: one thing is sure : mainland sales are down and crashing, it's apocalyptic

Jack Linden: We should recognise that Estates are our partners, are resellers and add value and that to do that well they need to be able to control resources for their regions, perhaps decide whether prims vs script load is important to them and so on

Charlene Trudeau: or a whole cpu and you designate the mix of things similar to homesteads, os and full prim limits yourself

Drongle McMahon: Maybe there will be a huge earthquake.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes Drongle

Dennis Lagan: we also need more "automation". more possiblities to have a script taking care about our sims. for example the ability to see which parcels are for sale. it shoudl be at least available to estate owners and managers, not saying everony should be able to check that with a script

Jack Linden: We probably have too much crossover between retail and wholesale in our land market, so I'd like us to better separate those out and let Estates have more of those levers

Jack Linden: Dennis - absolutely.

Ciaran Laval: Oh right choices of product, you should do that with other areas like premiums too

Jack Linden: Giving tools for handling rental agreements, or land reclamation, or land resetting, or governance issues.. the list is long. But ultimately for estate owners that want to have that level of control we should be providing the tools

Motor Loon: Sounds pretty damn good Jack.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes

Melody Regent: I know I would like to see more access to my sims on the webside. IE, be able to add/remove EM or do restarted on the website instead of logging in and going to that sim. Is that something you are looking into Jack?

Ludmilia Zapedzki: this is a good point

Jack Linden: If someone wants to build a land business around zero gravity, 5 avatars, no land and heavy physics load.. we should have the levers in place that allows them to sell that experience

Charlene Trudeau: I use a third party tool with a bot to do restarts and estate level kick/ban now, its AWESOME

Jack Linden: Melody.. totally agree. Web tools and remote management are key parts of allowing estates to scale

Alexxa Despres: jack ,those all sound like positive moves for estate owners.. great to hear

Equinox Pinion: which one is it charlene

Charlene Trudeau: no one should have to leave their event to go restart a region

Charlene Trudeau: Fox Reports

Charlene Trudeau: I can talk to you about itlater, Equinox

Equinox Pinion: thank you!

stormi Capalini: me as well please, Charlene

Equinox Pinion: that is such a pain to do it manualy

Jack Linden: controlling media or ban lists, are both things we could build good web tools or APIs to handle remotely

Jack Linden: For example

Melody Regent: ban lists that work are missing Jack

Melody Regent: there is a Jira that has alot of attention and noone has even bothered to assign it to someone

Charlene Trudeau: media would be awesome too, trying to change the whole estate over to seasonal music or an estate wide event sucks

Dennis Lagan: an other thing is that estate owners/ managers should have access to the about land windows of their residents, currently we can't change settings in it without reclaiming, it would make helping them so much more easy

stormi Capalini: here here Dennis!

Charlene Trudeau: and ban lists need to be able to be sorted by DATE so you can purge effectively once those griefer accounts have been cycled to new ones

Jack Linden: Yeah, I know Melody. We've a bunch of those problems to fix though some may be fixed during redesign for something much better rather than just fixed (if that makes sense)

Seattle LeShelle: good point dennis

Charlene Trudeau: yes, we need and admin override on our estate for land parcels

Melody Regent: I want to be able to set settings in estate level. Like not allowing ban lines or restricting sounds to parcels... etc

Charlene Trudeau: esp for things they set that are against covenant

Melody Regent: this way they cant screw it up, it is estate managed

Jack Linden: Dennis, like a local godmode? yeah, I can see why that would make sense

Charlene Trudeau: right, Melody

Charlene Trudeau: we need that too

Seattle LeShelle: we definitly need all of that.

Dennis Lagan: yes.

Monty Forzane: Hi Jack, I have a mainland property that I can not even log into half the time because one parcel owner has the sim full at almost all times. My vistors (if they can get in) can't even walk around. This person only owns 1/8 of that region. What could be a solution?

Equinox Pinion: and what would really help big estates.....having different levels of estate managers

Jack Linden: If we head in that directionthen estates will become more of a reseller/wholesale/partnership (at least those that wish to be focussed on being a business)

stormi Capalini: yes Equinox!

Melody Regent: i just want MORE managers

Charlene Trudeau: that too, Melody <G>

Qie Niangao: hmmm... so, maybe there really shouldn't be a market for Mainland going forward. (That's not a Mainland vs Estates thing, I'm just sayin'... do I really want to hold a bunch of Mainland that can't do any of those cool things? Not the admin stuff, but the "zero gravity, 5 avatars, no land, heavy physics" things)

Jack Linden: Monty, abusing region resources is a terms of service issue, so you should abuse report them so that our support agents can take a look

Ludmilia Zapedzki: mainland market is dying

Ludmilia Zapedzki: ...

Ludmilia Zapedzki: lol

Charlene Trudeau: Qie, once you get hooked on estate you can't go back ;P even with the limited cool factor we have now

Jack Linden: Equinix, I think estate managers should operate more like groups, with roles and permissions.

Marianne McCann: Ya. I'm more than a bit concerned about mainland as well

Jack Linden: *Equinox

Ciaran Laval: I saw a media tool the other day....hmm maybe it was Land Machine

Monty Forzane: thank you Jack

Charlene Trudeau: yes, Jack!!!

Ciaran Laval: How do you import someone else's friend list?

Melody Regent: [11:30] Jack Linden: Equinix, I think estate managers should operate more like groups, with roles and permissions.

Melody Regent: I love you Jack

Equinox Pinion: yes that would be good jack

Charlene Trudeau: we definitely need that

Ludmilia Zapedzki: I think in the future, there will be only estate lands or mainland only managed by LL

Jack Linden: Qie.. I expect that some features will filter down to Mainland very naturally and that we, as estate manager there, will get much more creative at helping Mainland communities to use those controls

Charlene Trudeau: my sandbox guardians NEED to be able to return griefer items from the surrounding parcels NOT just the land they have group perms to

Charlene Trudeau: but I can't, not enough manager space and no other way to give the permission

Kristaki Hudson: issue i must go sorry tkae care

Jack Linden: Mainland is a very important part of Second Life

Marianne McCann: I very much prefer maainland, myself, and the mainland experience.

Ciaran Laval: Bye Krisaki

Driftwood Miles: Is Jack Linden really Santa Clause?

Ludmilia Zapedzki: some features, and also the actuel economic world crisis, Jack

Melody Regent: If not for mainland I would not be where I am today

Alexxa Despres: LOL

Qie Niangao: interesting... interesting use of "communities" there, Jack. That may mean something I don't appreciate fully yet.

Equinox Pinion: we will know it soon driftwood lol

Ludmilia Zapedzki: *actual

Jack Linden: Haha, nooo Driftwood. :)

Ciaran Laval: There's always a clause to be wary of Driiftwood

Melody Regent: but mainland 3years ago and mainland today are not even in the same universe

Charlene Trudeau: you need to hire estate managers to be your mainland estate managers ;P but you need to be able to hire in more than four states

Driftwood Miles: LOL

Driftwood Miles: LOL Ciaran *nods*

Dennis Lagan: no, i am santa, you missed my hat

Jack Linden: Qie, oh i just mean to say that the multiple ownership model of Mainland tends to make some controls hard to allow there.. but that where communities hold larger areas it gets easier

Charlene Trudeau: the sad thing is, Jack, that even if someone controls an entire mainland region, there's no allowance for upgrading those controls for them

Qie Niangao: right, I understand Jack. a reason to be a member of a community: not a bad thing. :)

Jack Linden: For example, if we allowed parcel level ground textures. That mightnot make sense for mainland unless a group owns a substantial space within the regin

Jack Linden: *region

Marianne McCann: True, or say in some of the existing mainland communities (Bay City, etc.)

Ludmilia Zapedzki: true, Jack

Motor Loon: yes, that could become real "pretty"

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes, but impossible to realize

Charlene Trudeau: but on estate I'd love a better way to 'paint' the terrain

Jack Linden: Charlene, well yes.. agreed.. and that *is* the Estate advantage in many respects.. but there are some things that we can add for Mainlanders to keep pushing their experience forward

Ludmilia Zapedzki: oh really, jack ?

Melody Regent: Like what Jack?

Charlene Trudeau: I understand, but it was very frustrating when I did have a full region mainland while still running my estates

Ludmilia Zapedzki: give us an example, please

Charlene Trudeau: I just couldn't do everything I needed to

Qie Niangao: by the way, Jack--already told Michael: nice progress on SLRR, and some good stuff on roads coming. Very happy about that.

Marianne McCann: Oh yes. I can't wait to see the SLRR trains back up and running, myself

Jack Linden: For example, if we get Script Limits well defined and released, whereas estates would have controls at region and parcel level, we might beableto give mainlanders tools at parcel level

Ludmilia Zapedzki: woww

Ludmilia Zapedzki: it would be excellent

Melody Regent: not bad

Ludmilia Zapedzki: :)

Jack Linden: Some controls we can and shold devolve down to Mainland or parcel leverl so that mainlanders can use them too

Marianne McCann: Please!

Ludmilia Zapedzki: oh, it wold be very usefull

Ludmilia Zapedzki: oh yes, please

Ludmilia Zapedzki: :)

Charlene Trudeau: all parcel level should be able to see top scripts, Jack

Charlene Trudeau: for their parcel

Qie Niangao: yes, that would be a *huge* value.

Charlene Trudeau: scripters need to see what they are doing to us

Marianne McCann: I agree, Charlene. That's been a biggie in my book

Drongle McMahon: And mine

Jack Linden: Charlene, good example and yes. agreed

Ludmilia Zapedzki: this could change the way of how many people consider mainland

Zoha Boa: /Me is looking for his book

Marianne McCann: I would also love to see the ability to list who can build or script on a parcel, much like the allowed or banned lists of today.

Marianne McCann: (Rather than doing it via groups)

Qie Niangao: it would in fact change the Mainland to be a better experience, just being able to measure what we're doing to it unintentionallyu.

Marianne McCann: (or in addition to).

Jack Linden: I've had feedback from people that we've loaded too much control into Groups, so Marianne.. that might be something to look at

Charlene Trudeau: I still say we need a way to separate 'land group' needs from 'chat/update group' needs

Marianne McCann: True, Qie. That would be a big boon. I know I would ov3e to know if any of my parcels are causing troubles like that

Charlene Trudeau: with a different 'bucket' of groups for each type

Melody Regent: well, we need one of two things to happen with groups Jack... we need more roles or more groups...

Ciaran Laval: I'd prefer to be able to devolve roles to certain parcels

Marianne McCann: It would certainly make it easier for, say, mall or other store owners. Just add someoen to the "build" list, rather than having to add them to yet another group.

Charlene Trudeau: we need both, Melody, along with division on what they are used for

Melody Regent: I agree Charelene

Charlene Trudeau: my community event group doesn't need land controls

Melody Regent: but I learned not to ask for two much

Melody Regent: give them a choice

Charlene Trudeau: my land control groups don't need chat functions

Melody Regent: then get it

Melody Regent: then hound for the left off choice later

Melody Regent grins

Marianne McCann: 'zactly

Marianne McCann: Gotta run. Lotsa meetings today f'r me!

Charlene Trudeau: but I'd be happy with double the groups

Marianne McCann: Bye Bye!!

Melody Regent: bye Mari

Alexxa Despres: Bye Marianne ;)

Charlene Trudeau: And, Jack, you may want to look at ways for us to 'earn' more groups

Charlene Trudeau: whether thats by amount of land ownership, or some tie to economic impact as a creator or whatever

Melody Regent: basics, none pay have very groups, paid more.. estate/land owner more... etc

Charlene Trudeau: simply the more we do in world to be productive citizens the more we need more groups

Melody Regent: Mel the most

Jack Linden: One question will be whether an estate owner should be able to control on/off for all of the land controls, so for example could choose to switch off media controls for a resident.. my gut feel is that yes, we should allow estates to control their experiences fully

Melody Regent: KIdding, I actually keep mine under 20

Charlene Trudeau: yes, Jack

Melody Regent: yes

Ludmilia Zapedzki: Charlene, are you talking about the 25 groups limit ?

Dennis Lagan: yes, and limit the use of banlines on estate level for example

Charlene Trudeau: esp being able to prohibit ban lines and require that sounds be restricted to parcel, those are ABSOLUTELY things we should be able to set estate wide

Melody Regent: and let us controls those estate level AND parcel level

Zoha Boa: I had to reclaim today 4 parcels to turn ban lines down and had them set back for sale to my residents because they would not turn them off

Charlene Trudeau: yes, I am, Ludmilla

Jack Linden: Charlene, re. groups.. indeed. And it might be that group count be tied to subscription or account type or account age.

Jack Linden: Lots of ways to look at that

Charlene Trudeau: right, Zoha

Ludmilia Zapedzki: well, the problem is that it would require the linden lab modify the database

Ludmilia Zapedzki: ....

Charlene Trudeau: right, Jack

Ciaran Laval: You can turn banlines off in the viewer now, are they any worse than security devices?

Ludmilia Zapedzki: do you imagine, if I'm right, the time and money it can take ?

Ludmilia Zapedzki: that's why, if I'm right, the group limit did not evolve

Charlene Trudeau: Ciaran, if they are prohibited by covenant, I should be able to restict their placement, period

Dennis Lagan: as long as they are not turned of by default in the viewer, its no good ciaran.

Zoha Boa: an estate manager should be able to change ALL land settings of a resident. to apply the covenant but also to explain to a resident how to do something

Ludmilia Zapedzki: Am I right, Jack ?

Charlene Trudeau: and some estates odn't allow security orbs at ground level either

Melody Regent: Ludmilia, seems they are making some massive changed to the viewer, dataabase.. the whole kit and kaboodle...might as well ask for the sun, moon and starts NOW

Jack Linden: Not quite Ludmilia, we are constantly evolving the database and the shape of the data we hold, but with groups there are issues around load for example that are also a factor

Charlene Trudeau: and when I have a parcel empty at ground level because they have skybox only

Ludmilia Zapedzki: ahhh, ok

Jack Linden: We have to ble clear on how 50 groups vs 25 would impact resources

Charlene Trudeau: there is NO reason someone shouldn't be able to walk across the parcel and not run into even an invisible wall

Ludmilia Zapedzki: oyu mean more lag

Ludmilia Zapedzki: more bugs

Qie Niangao: well, if Premium membership is going to remain at all, it really needs some more benefits. It's just not a big draw now.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: *you

Jack Linden: And is group count driven more by socialising or land management, or being a business..

Jack Linden: It's probably all of those

Talarus Luan: It is driven by many factors.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: well, then it would nee more servers to hold SL

Ludmilia Zapedzki: ...

Charlene Trudeau: Which is wy, Jack, I suggested two types of groups, I have to assume that the heavy controls required for all the perms in the current groups would 'weigh' more than a simple list for chat and notice perms

Ludmilia Zapedzki: *need

Zoha Boa: i have 2 alts who hold groups for me as owner, they have to invite me each time if i need to work on something

Qie Niangao: I'm guessing that splitting off "social groups" that cannot own land would reduce the resource demand of groups.

Jack Linden: So do we give more groups to bi gland owners specifically, or again do we just tie it to the type of account

Talarus Luan: The load issues need to be resolved so that you can remove the limit entirely, or at least push it out to something reasonable, like hundreds or a thousand.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: ahh, I did not know you were doing that

Melody Regent: to account types Jack... but.... here is the flaw

Melody Regent: no

Melody Regent: I take that back

Dennis Lagan: why not to both? for example if you are big land owner and/or premium, you get more groups.

Melody Regent: paid accounts get more bennies

Melody Regent: not just land

Ludmilia Zapedzki: well, the problem is that it will impact SL performance, Jack ?

Melody Regent: yes and being a land/sim owner you get the most

Bronson Blackadder: I would like to see higher stpend levels that increase with each tier level

Melody Regent: so levels of accounts...

Melody Regent: yes bronson

Jack Linden: Yep Dennis, might be various ways to earnmore groups

Charlene Trudeau: paid accounts should have more than premium, but large land owners may need more groups simply to land manage, esp those renting mainland where groups can become almost a mass number necessity

Jack Linden: I'm just saying that there are lots of ways to look at it.

Talarus Luan: The primary bottleneck is the group chat system, which should be scrapped and re-done in the first place.

Charlene Trudeau: I can't begin to tell you what kind of crisit ibecomes when I have to empty up to 8 group slots so I can be working effectively on RFL each year

Melody Regent: your dripping Talarus

Melody Regent: :)

Zoha Boa: free , premium and gold members or something

Qie Niangao: good point, Charlene: groups are about the only tools there is for managing Mainland rentals.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: yes Zoha, I agree

Talarus Luan: I'm always drippy. :)

Melody Regent: well, add more roles in ALLL groups for one

Ludmilia Zapedzki: maybe 25 for basic

Zoha Boa: give newbies a max. of 15 groups, when they get premium they can have 25 groups as existing residents

Charlene Trudeau: Talarus, again, separate land groups from chat system entirely

Ciaran Laval: Free is often a misnomer

Jack Linden: Tal, we've a lot of problems there, I agree. Personally, and this is just my view, I'd prefer it be more like irc in how it operates

Ludmilia Zapedzki: and then, increase depending on the level of the account

Melody Regent: Chat Jack, that is a massive joke

Talarus Luan: Absolutely, Charlene

Zoha Boa: and gold members to 50 or so

Milano Ferrentino: Another matter related to group count is trying to find a person's last log-in, which is particularly important when a long-term and reliable resident suddenly falls behind in rent. Now one has to try to temporarily join a group that individuals is in to see when they last were inworld. Why is last log-in openly available, like SL "birthday"?

Melody Regent: talking in chat for groups is hit and miss

Talarus Luan: Yes, that should be #1 on your priority list to fix, Jack

Melody Regent: and one of the worst things in SL right now

Talarus Luan: It's been FUBAR for years now.

Talarus Luan: No more shinies in the viewer, or the next viewer or whatever.

Talarus Luan: Fix the crap that is broken badly.

Motor Loon: agree... groupchat can be extremely lagging if working at all... espicially in large groups

Melody Regent: fix the crap we NEED to function, not the pretty crap I turn off anyway

Milano Ferrentino: Meant to say why is last log-n NOT openly available.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: oups, I have another meeting too, I have to leave

Jack Linden: Tal, often the two go together. Do you spend 3 months fixing chat, or do you spend 5 months doing a new chat thaht fixes the old problems.

Ardy Lay: I would like to be able to see last login date too.

Qie Niangao: Milano: extra benefit: save on a bunch of script use, if we could know last-login without sampling for it by script.

Ludmilia Zapedzki: goodbye everybody, have a good morning/afternoon/evening

Melody Regent: Have a good day Ludmilia

Charlene Trudeau: 5 months doing a new chat that is way better than a fixed version of current :)

Motor Loon: ..or makes 20 new bugs jack ;-)

Driftwood Miles: Bye Ludmilia

Jack Linden: As part of the Viewer work for example, a lot of underlying problems have been fixed that may not be obvious but that dramatically change how quickly we can move on new features

Melody Regent: I would be happy if things fixed didnt mess something eslle up.

Charlene Trudeau: Jack, while we're wishing for viewer 2.0.... and chat... being able to dock our chat windows, local and IM, outside the main viewer window would be AWESOME

Jack Linden: hehe Motor! so cynicsal!

Jack Linden: *cynical

Motor Loon: I know ;-)

Melody Regent: thats my baby

Motor Loon: But it comes from experience Jack bro ;-)

Charlene Trudeau: I have both open constantly when not building, but when I am, I'm forever having to cycle between them and my build work to keep tabs on things

Charlene Trudeau: glancing outside the main viewer to keep up with a convo would be soooo much easier

Jack Linden: Ooh modeless dialogs would be an interesting change

Talarus Luan: Well, Jack, since I am suggesting spending 5 months to do a new chat that fixes all the old problems instead of flexiboobs or whatever, yeah.

Jack Linden: If we could do it without it being super confusing for new residents

Zoha Boa: make an option of it in the preferences that is disabled by default

Charlene Trudeau: right

Bronson Blackadder: hey I want to have my flexy beergut... leave my flexi beergut alone

Motor Loon: lolw

Ardy Lay: Hehe... I open a command shell and run "tail -f chat.txt"

Jack Linden: :)

Ardy Lay: Then I can do that for as many chat groups by name as I want and watch them while I work.

Charlene Trudeau: but bouncing boobies will bring mor enewbs in world than a fixed chat system ;P

Motor Loon: Jack, do your programmers look at some of the alternate viewers to see new ideas that might be real good to put in the mainviewer?

Alexxa Despres: jack..as everyone is giving you their wish list.... what do YOU see as Linden's top wishes..or their TOP 5 priorities this coming year?

Melody Regent: Jack, speaking of wiggly boobies... Why is it that the Emerald viewewr people can give us great viewer oiptions and in a timely manner but you all dont give us some of the wonderful tools they do in the SL viewer?

Melody Regent: (wiggly boobs is NOT a plus)

Melody Regent crosses her arms over her chest

Charlene Trudeau: Motor, like temp textures? a slider for draw distance on the main viewer panel?

Motor Loon thinks boobs should wiggle

Talarus Luan: No, if anything I want to see Yohan with a flexi gut..

Charlene Trudeau: lol, Melody, tell that to the strip clubs <>G

Charlene Trudeau: long and short, sex sells so bouncy boobs can only be a plus ;P

Motor Loon: charlene, and the fact that I can run a perfect SL experience without having a single HUD attachment on

Talarus Luan: That boy will be able to dribble himself around the room.. <.<

Melody Regent: Yes, the radar on emerald is perfect

Charlene Trudeau: I wish I knew, but I won't use 3rd party viewers cause I'm stubborn, so I only get to drool over heresay

Melody Regent: Char darrrrling, would I mislead you?

Jack Linden: Alexxa, I would say that it's about making the experience much easier to get into.. on all fronts. Easier for new residents (Viewer), easier for casual visotors (website), easier for estates (tools), easier for landowners, merchants and so on. It'll be about how we can make such a complex world be easy and safe

Driftwood Miles: same here Charlene

Motor Loon: Charlene, well, dont try them then, because once you've been on e.g. Emerald, you won't go back to the mainviewer.

Alexxa Despres: Thank you for answering , jack :)

Jack Linden: Okay folks, I have to scram to my next meeting. So much to do! Lovely talk today, thank you all!

Ardy Lay: Jack, please define "safe" in that context.

Melody Regent: see you later Jack

Charlene Trudeau: heh

Melody Regent: thank you for coming

Motor Loon: tc jack man

Charlene Trudeau: he saved that til he had to scram <G>

Driftwood Miles: Thank you Jack...have a good one

Equinox Pinion: take care jack

Charlene Trudeau: take care, Jack

Ciaran Laval: cheers Jack

Jack Linden: hehe

Bronson Blackadder: thanks Jack :)

Melody Regent: ciao all!

Talarus Luan: Jack, one question before you go... on the issue of the remaining few microparcel extortionists, when are we going to see them dealt with? We've seen evidence that some of them are making new 16s or at elast expanding their holdings again.

Zoha Boa: bye jack

Alexxa Despres: thanks jack, appreciate it ;)

lufpleh Obstreperous: if LL introduced an emerald style radar or flexi boobs they would be casigated for adding shinny bloat!!

Jack Linden: Tal, i haven't seen that in the data but if you have examples... send me them.

Jack Linden: bye all!