User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 17

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Transcript of Which Linden's office hours:

[11:02] Which Linden: good morning!
[11:07] Pranshu Siemens: hi
[11:07] Pranshu Siemens: hi harleen
[11:08] Which Linden: hi Pranshu
[11:08] Which Linden: I'm working on this demo thing
[11:09] Pranshu Siemens: wats its all about
[11:09] Pranshu Siemens: ??
[11:09] Which Linden: To illustrate the operation of The Escrow
[11:09] Pranshu Siemens: ok ic r u an indian
[11:10] Which Linden: an indian?
[11:10] Which Linden: Like, as in a native american?
[11:10] Which Linden: OK, where's that noise coming from?
[11:11] Which Linden: Not that I'm against WEsley Willis or anything
[11:12] Which Linden: ok, well, I'm obviously not going to get this scripting done anytime soon
[11:15] Which Linden: harleen. you got any topics?
[11:17] Original Prim waves
[11:17] Day Oh: Howdy (:
[11:18] Which Linden: hey!
[11:18] Which Linden: good morning
[11:18] Day Oh: I haven't been here, this is very pretty
[11:19] Which Linden: Thanks!
[11:20] Which Linden: Even though Runitai hates it
[11:20] Which Linden: for hurting graphics cards
[11:20] Day Oh: Hm, I'm getting my usual 2.9 fps
[11:20] Which Linden: Yay
[11:20] Day Oh: XD \o/
[11:21] Which Linden: So, you got any topics to discuss while I hack on this escrow demo?
[11:21] Day Oh: Is that what we're talking about? chttp, right
[11:22] Which Linden: Yeah, I just wanted to show this demo and give out copies of it
[11:22] Day Oh: I'm just waking up and got your message in AW Groupies, thought I'd see what's up (:
[11:22] Which Linden: but then I realized that all the interesting logic was external to the script!
[11:22] Which Linden: hah, nice
[11:24] Which Linden: there we go
[11:25] Which Linden: so check it, this is the most basic escrow transaction
[11:25] Which Linden: what's it doing
[11:25] Day Oh: Where am I looking, the diagram behind me?
[11:25] Which Linden: no, the rotating server-like thing by the water
[11:26] Day Oh: Aha!
[11:26] Which Linden: so those agentN-ds hosts represent the agent stores
[11:26] Which Linden: and the hockey pucks are certified http messages
[11:27] Which Linden: so it gets 10 L$ from Jill, and then gives it to, uh, Bob
[11:27] Which Linden: Ron
[11:27] Day Oh: hehe, alright :D
[11:27] Which Linden: I shoulda named 'em after Harry Potter characters
[11:28] Which Linden: So that's pretty straightforward, the only interesting thing is that the escrow's state changes from "gather" to "deliver"
[11:28] Day Oh nods
[11:28] Which Linden: lemme stick in a more involved example
[11:29] Which Linden: this is an object buy
[11:30] Which Linden: so it gathers both the L$ and the object in the gather phase, and delivers them both in the deliver phase
[11:30] Which Linden: but what happens if something goes awry?
[11:31] Day Oh attempts to attach diagrams to HUD
[11:31] Which Linden: so here the object gather fails
[11:31] Day Oh: oop, no mod
[11:31] Which Linden: which diagrams?
[11:31] Day Oh: The ones showing failure points etc
[11:31] Which Linden: oh yah
[11:32] Which Linden: now they are mod
[11:32] Tillie Ariantho: ao off
[11:32] Tillie Ariantho: Hey there. :)
[11:32] Which Linden: hi Tillie!
[11:33] Tillie Ariantho: Hum, where are all the groupies? ,)
[11:33] Which Linden: not sure
[11:33] Which Linden: This is kind of a slow hour because of me trying to code simultaneously
[11:34] Which Linden: OK almost done
[11:34] Which Linden: let's see if the group join example works
[11:35] Day Oh: boom XD
[11:35] Which Linden: so this is Jim joining the group Butter Fanciers for 100 L$
[11:35] Day Oh: ohh, escrow
[11:35] Which Linden: yah
[11:36] Tillie Ariantho: :)
[11:36] Tillie Ariantho: Hm, none of the usual suspects is online... weird.
[11:38] Which Linden: cool, well I'll make this thing copy/mod and you all can take a demo
[11:38] Tillie Ariantho: Hm, anything important to discuss today? I dont see anyone of the usual people... Sai or Zha or Tao ...
[11:38] Tillie Ariantho: Nice. :)
[11:38] Tillie Ariantho: And then we all can make Jim joining Butter Fanciers? .P
[11:38] Which Linden: yup
[11:39] Which Linden: I'm gonna see if that group exists
[11:39] Which Linden: Not found. Score
[11:41] Which Linden: heh
[11:41] Tillie Ariantho: hihi
[11:41] Which Linden: now who's lookin' cool, or what?
[11:41] Tillie Ariantho: =D
[11:42] Day Oh: Okay, this kinda makes sense to me, but also this is the first time I've seen any hint of how you can remove the power to transact with someone's acount, from the simulator
[11:42] Vincent Nacon: hmmm did someone forget to water the plant?
[11:42] Day Oh: Also excuse me for being teh noob
[11:42] Which Linden: how's that?
[11:43] Day Oh: The first thing I noticed about this escrow diagram is the part where the agent A "somehow tells" its agent store to buy an object
[11:43] Tillie Ariantho: hm, cant take a copy ...
[11:43] Which Linden: (you'll have to take a lok at the code to see how to use it until I author an explanatory notecard)
[11:43] Which Linden: (it's set copy)
[11:44] Which Linden: Ok, now it's on sale for L$ 0
[11:44] Tillie Ariantho: that worked.
[11:44] Which Linden: Day Oh: How does this illustrate how to remove the power to transact from the simulator?
[11:46] Tillie Ariantho: Hello Zha. :)
[11:46] Day Oh: It seems to imply now the agent gets a capability to do this with his or her agent store? Which seems like the sim doesn't necessarily need to know
[11:46] Cel Edman gave you sft_sofa v#03.
[11:46] Day Oh: I'm probably going way off topic with that, and probably wrong too
[11:47] Which Linden: Oh, hm, we haven't yet hashed out the details of how the transaction will be initiated
[11:47] Which Linden: But yeah, that's a possibility
[11:47] Tillie Ariantho: hm, the stuff inside the Escrow demo box is nomod? what do we do with it then?
[11:47] Which Linden: ah, sorry, I forgot to mod the script
[11:48] Which Linden: but in the SL2008 future, remember, capabilities will be granted both by the Region Domain (i.e. simulator) and the Agent Domain
[11:48] Tillie Ariantho: SL permissions are hard stuff. .P
[11:48] Vincent Nacon: (sorry, back)
[11:49] Which Linden: yeah, I bet the scripts in the subsidiary objects are also no-mod nocopy
[11:49] Which Linden: blar
[11:49] Tillie Ariantho: the box now shows as full perms in inventory... so maybe they are good.
[11:49] Which Linden: Is there a faster way to update them than drag to ground, edit, take to inventory, drag from inventory to parent object inventory?
[11:49] Tillie Ariantho: but you never know. .P
[11:50] Tillie Ariantho: Which: No. .P Go improve that, haha! :D
[11:50] Which Linden: let me know if there are any problems
[11:50] Zha Ewry: Ahm.
[11:50] Zha Ewry: svn?
[11:50] Original Prim: would be useful if contents was stacked
[11:50] Which Linden: Hah, yeah, there should definitely be a better workflow for editing nested objects.
[11:50] Zha Ewry: Should, also be a btter scheme for resetting nested permissions
[11:50] Tillie Ariantho: Or a toggle like [x] distribute root perms to childred. :)
[11:51] Which Linden: Yeah.
[11:51] Zha Ewry: (Make everything in this prim to be copy/mod
[11:51] Zha Ewry: )
[11:51] Zha Ewry glances at which "so, we'll see that 1.20?"
[11:51] Tillie Ariantho: And allow opening containers inside containers without removing and dropping them on the floor. :)
[11:52] Tillie Ariantho: 1.20?
[11:52] Zha Ewry: Well, I figure which can't get it into the 1.19 code drop, but 1.20.. that's in Feb :)
[11:52] Which Linden: Well, the question is whether there's a powerful uniform interface or whether there's a lot of bandaids that we can apply
[11:52] Tillie Ariantho: ah okay. .)
[11:53] Zha Ewry: The reality is that re-visiting how to propogate stuff wihtin linkesets, is the heart of htis. Not trivial
[11:53] Which Linden: The "apply root perms to all children" I'd consider to be a bandaid.
[11:53] Zha Ewry: Yeah, which, but a *blasted* useful one
[11:53] Tillie Ariantho: heh, so with lots of bandaids the mother prim becomes a mummy prim. .)
[11:53] Which Linden: Yeah, it's true, it's a common use case
[11:53] Day Oh imagines all the vulnerability testing he'd do
[11:54] Which Linden: Yep
[11:55] Zha Ewry: Which, has there been much thoght of how the c-http and escrow blend into the existing protocl streams?
[11:55] Which Linden: You mean udp?
[11:55] Which Linden: I think chttp is rather orthogonal to any REST interface
[11:56] Vincent Nacon: err or Curl?
[11:56] Zha Ewry: (ie does any of it include client side, or does it stay mostly on the servers)
[11:56] Which Linden: Oh, there's no plan for putting it on the client.
[11:56] Which Linden: We'd have to come up with much weaker requirements in that case.
[11:56] Zha Ewry: Ok, that's one part of the story
[11:57] Which Linden: Yeah, so for right now it's just of interest to people who might set up their own grids
[11:58] Zha Ewry: So, are you assuming it's sim side, and mostly sim/serveice?
[11:58] Which Linden: Actually, even sims are not reliable enough
[11:58] Zha Ewry lifts en eyebrow
[11:58] Which Linden: So it's purely for high-availability servers like the agent data stores
[11:59] Vincent Nacon: and so we've noticed that
[11:59] Zha Ewry: On the server side
[11:59] Zha Ewry: But prsumably, the sims kick off some of the transactoins
[11:59] Which Linden: Maybe if the sim becomes more stable we can start using them for this sort of thing
[12:00] Which Linden: The initiation comes from the viewer initially, and then goes through the sim (now) or the agent host (sl2008)
[12:00] Which Linden: so that is a potential source of problems
[12:00] Which Linden: we know
[12:00] Zha Ewry: Does it really flow as a single flow, or is it
[12:00] Which Linden: which is why I'd love to talk about a chttp-for-clients
[12:00] Zha Ewry: That the client asks the the sim to do things, in a non chttp form
[12:00] Zha Ewry: and th esim does things chttp wise
[12:00] Zha Ewry: Or, is it end to end?
[12:01] Day Oh nods, I love the client<->agent store idea
[12:01] Day Oh: Even though it was only a speculation.. by me, lol
[12:01] Which Linden: Zha: it's non-chttp until it gets to an agent store
[12:02] Which Linden: so, for now, it's just a replacement for single-database transactions
[12:02] Zha Ewry nods
[12:02] Day Oh: Wonderful enough
[12:02] Zha Ewry: Ok
[12:02] Zha Ewry: Yes
[12:03] Which Linden: so, ok, we have a topic for next time, and I have to go meet someone for lunch
[12:03] Tillie Ariantho: So is there any internal stuff changing to REST and stuff soon? I don't know what happened last week, too busy...
[12:03] Tillie Ariantho: last weeks I meant
[12:03] Which Linden: quick answer for tillie: slowly, very slowly
[12:03] Day Oh: Bye Which <3
[12:03] Tillie Ariantho: hm. .)
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: oh think you can get Sidewinder to answer my IM? long as he isn't really too busy
[12:03] Which Linden: I'll see you all later!
[12:03] Which Linden: Thanks for coming!
[12:03] Vincent Nacon: seeya
[12:04] Tillie Ariantho: Bye Which. :)