User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20081029

• [13:50] Whump Linden: so at the moment, the beta program supports teleporting an avatar between our development grid, and OpenSims.
• [13:50] Whump Linden: Hi Saijani
• [13:50] Chaley May: sure you cant have all the things created in SL being copied into other sims
• [13:51] Chaley May: but wouldnt it work if say when i tp between grids my avatar completely changes to use all assets i acquired on that grid
• [13:51] Chaley May: and take nothing between
• [13:51] Whump Linden: Yes, we don't want to mess with people who make all the avatars, outfits, and tools.
• [13:52] Whump Linden: Saijani's a resident who's been involved with thinking about our future architecture for a while now.
• [13:52] Whump Linden: Saijani: Chaley, Airck, and Rian.
• [13:52] Rian Hirvi: Hello
• [13:52] Rian Hirvi: i just wanted a bear :D
• [13:52] Chaley May: hi SaiJanai
• [13:52] Rian Hirvi: hahaha
• [13:52] Airck Philipp: Hi :-)
• [13:53] Whump Linden: Saij: I've got a couple of announcements w.r.t. the beta.
• [13:53] Whump Linden: hey, Widget, Twa, Junta
• [13:54] Airck Philipp: i have to logg off....bye everyone!
• [13:54] Widget Whiteberry: Hey Whump, all
• [13:54] Chaley May: lots more people popping up
• [13:54] Chaley May: hi
• [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm very Ross Perot-like, so go foor it Whump
• [13:54] Twa Hinkle: hi
• [13:54] Whump Linden: So, we're waiting on two fixes for getting the vaak sims back up again. There's a network config change, and a last fix to be applied to the agent domain.
• [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: sounds good
• [13:55] Whump Linden: I don't have the timings on those just yet.
• [13:56] Whump Linden: The region crossing JIRA, and I don't have the number for that one in front of me, JIRA is being slow, has a fix, and we'll deploy that once we have vaak back up.
• [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: Whump, at some point, I'd like to see an outgoing pipe defined for client to AD messages. I or Tao could hack one up in a ptyon test AD, but it would be good to have an official format for that
• [13:56] Widget Whiteberry: Whump, is the pollution off to your left a purposeful metaphor?
• [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: we need to start doing testing in parallel
• [13:57] Whump Linden: It's clean coal.
• [13:57] AngelAmores Waffle: quieres que nos tiremos mutuamente?
• [13:57] Widget Whiteberry: raises an eyebrow
• [13:58] Whump Linden: AngelAmores, I'm sorry, I do not read spanish. Can someone translate for AngelAmores?
• [13:59] Whump Linden: Saijanai: so you need a OGP-ified set of messages? Do you want to make a pass at writing that up?
• [13:59] fati Luik: hola
• [13:59] Chaley May: there is a good translator thats not babbler
• [14:00] Whump Linden: and I thought babbler was no longer supported/working?
• [14:00] Whump Linden: hold on, let me google
• [14:00] Chaley May: its not babler
• [14:00] fati Luik: shouts: hola
• [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: well, just the barebones outline of how to proceed. WE do the EQG with a single packet # as the entire payload. Could we change that to be outgoing message/packetack and assume it will be reasonably acceptable?
• [14:01] Chaley May: someone spanish gave me it
• [14:01] fati Luik: hi
• [14:01] Chaley May: no scripts :(
• [14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: I mean, xml/LLSD for any given packet is no big deal since the python translator exists already (I think), but the overal outgoing packet format isn't defined at this point
• [14:02] Whump Linden: AngelAmores, I'm sorry, I'm terrible at human languages and cannot tell if you're using Spanish or Portuguese?
• [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: spanish I think
• [14:02] Whump Linden: Sai: so if you want to overload one message or have many messages?
• [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: what do you want to do together, I think was the question
• [14:02] fati Luik: you speak spanish
• [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: hablo un poco (un poquitto)
• [14:03] fati Luik: where you fron
• [14:03] fati Luik: from
• [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: de donde eres?
• [14:04] fati Luik: de madrid
• [14:04] fati Luik: y tu
• [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: Soy de Tucson
• [14:04] fati Luik: por que tienes cola de pez
• [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: ah Madrid. Visitando Madrind 30 anos (ago)
• [14:05] fati Luik: hace 30?
• [14:05] fati Luik: cuantos aos tienes
• [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: 53
• [14:06] fati Luik: eres mujer verdad?
• [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: si
• [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: hola Infinity ;-)
• [14:06] Whump Linden: Hey Infinity.
• [14:06] fati Luik: bueno voy a dar una vuelta
• [14:07] fati Luik: bye
• [14:07] Whump Linden: Infinity is also working on Open Grid Protocol.
• [14:07] Infinity Linden: hola Sai
• [14:07] Chaley May: hi infinity
• [14:07] Infinity Linden: totally not here... just a fly on the wall
• [14:07] Saijanai Kuhn: Este es en horas de oficina de Whump LInden
• [14:08] Whump Linden: The other bit of good news is OpenSim LSL related. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9332 has been resolved.
• [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: very good
• [14:08] Infinity Linden: oh Sai.. you habla the espaol?
• [14:08] Whump Linden: They are now flagging all scripts as mono, so the script goes to the sim for compilation.
• [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: nice and simple
• [14:08] Whump Linden: And with the 1.21.6 viewer, that flag is explicit
• [14:09] Whump Linden: so you avoid the precompilation steps that were tripping over the os* functions.
• [14:10] Whump Linden: so Saij: back to the packets
• [14:10] Saijanai Kuhn: right.
• [14:10] Whump Linden: were you talking about separate messages for each packet or a generic client <-> AD message?
• [14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: a bit of both. We have no pipe defined for outgoing messages, or any design for what they should look like
• [14:11] Saijanai Kuhn: so its hard to test laternate group IM, or anything else
• [14:12] Whump Linden: what payloads are in these packets, binary or or a mixture?
• [14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: prbably a mixture
• [14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: the one I wanted to work on for a start is the IIM
• [14:12] Saijanai Kuhn: which I think qualifies as mixed
• [14:12] Whump Linden: can you post a strawman to the wiki so that Infinity, Tess and others can comment?
• [14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: sure, though its more like a single piece of straw at the moment. Not quiete sure how to start
• [14:13] Whump Linden: well, it's something we can iterate on
• [14:13] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
• [14:14] Whump Linden: even a bit of source or an worked example from curl or python
• [14:14] Kristaki Hudson: hello
• [14:14] Saijanai Kuhn: I can dispaly incoming UDP and have the design for validity checking outgoing UDP. Just thinking we should move beyond that
• [14:14] Whump Linden: hi, Kristaki, we're talking about the Open Grid Protocol and Public Beta.
• [14:14] Zagro Ferraris: may i ask real quick what were tlking bout :)
• [14:14] Zagro Ferraris: talking
• [14:14] Celeste Auer: Whump is there a recommended MS usage on a OS sim?
• [14:15] Infinity Linden: start with the stuff you know.. problem description... solution parameters you're relatively sure shouldn't change
• [14:15] Kristaki Hudson: Dear linden will the customeres on open spaccs allowed to do military roleplay if i mays ask u this only
• [14:15] Jackson Rickenbacker: we keep ours below 2.0 ms
• [14:15] Whump Linden: Zagro: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Public_Beta
• [14:15] Jackson Rickenbacker: on top scripts
• [14:15] Zagro Ferraris: oh this is conecting to OG
• [14:16] Whump Linden: Celeste: I don't know that figure.
• [14:16] Jackson Rickenbacker: sorry my mistake,
• [14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: Whump. This is sample output, could format it better, and turn it into text entry boxes with simple type-validation: [1]
• [14:16] Whump Linden: I've been asked to direct the Open Space questions to the forum thread.
• [14:17] Illyria Illyar: Why don't they cap the agents on a open space region to cut down on resources
• [14:17] Kristaki Hudson: okay whump thank for reply i will ask there i apologize the interuptiion
• [14:17] Celeste Auer: But we are not getting any answers there
• [14:17] fati Luik: hello
• [14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: so we can start doing injectin packets soon. BUT, UDP isn't really OGP in the long run
• [14:17] Celeste Auer: but thank you for answering
• [14:17] Jackson Rickenbacker: Whump I would rather eat razorblades and gargel tabasco than be the Linden on the forum thread
• [14:17] Zagro Ferraris: do yall have asset server sharing scheem yet? of any sort
• [14:18] Whump Linden: Zagro, we've not started on specifications for that. If you are interested in the design work, I'd recommend joining and participating in the "AW Groupies" inworld group.
• [14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: Zagro, other than getting explicit permission from the original content creator and copying it by hand, there's no method or anything available yet
• [14:18] Whump Linden: Saijani can get you an invite, as can Zha Erwy.
• [14:19] Zagro Ferraris: hmm ask me easy way is to add one more checkbox to the perms list (cross grid)
• [14:20] Zagro Ferraris: then do asset sharing via the individual avatars client
• [14:20] Saijanai Kuhn: I think that's the easiest way too, Zagro, but raises the question: does LL want to be the data server for the entire internet?
• [14:20] Zagro Ferraris: wortks both ways tho
• [14:20] Saijanai Kuhn: not for a very long time
• [14:20] Zagro Ferraris: the asset is stord loacaly
• [14:21] Zagro Ferraris: you can bring outside in via your pc and inside out
• [14:21] Zagro Ferraris: if it has that checkbox
• [14:21] Whump Linden: Zagro, are you talking about Gigs Taggart's design concept?
• [14:21] Saijanai Kuhn: lots of issues there, Zagro. We've been debating and discussin gthis whole thing forat least a year
• [14:21] Infinity Linden: yay! let's be the data server for the internet!
• [14:21] Infinity Linden: oh oh... sorry.. i mean.. no.. let's not
• [14:21] Zagro Ferraris: hello infinity
• [14:21] Zagro Ferraris: lol
• [14:22] Jackson Rickenbacker: content created by a avatar should be able to be stored on thier pc, since obviously they hold all r permissions, that would allow your own content to transfer
• [14:22] Infinity Linden: @jackson
• [14:22] Saijanai Kuhn: 100+ discussions online: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs
• [14:22] Infinity Linden: the problem with locally hosted assets is
• [14:22] Zagro Ferraris: no but you can temporarly hold assets in a sim brought in by an aoutside avatar and vice versa
• [14:22] Saijanai Kuhn: anything since Aprlil this year is likely a good read on the topic
• [14:22] Infinity Linden: that if you're at the end of a DSL line, the SL protocol can easily eat up ALL of your upstream bandwidth
• [14:23] Zagro Ferraris: the avatars root inventory would be kept at it's acoutn holder (for re uplaoding) the data would folow that avatar (in it's invenotry ) across grids and uploaded to the sim as needed
• [14:23] Zagro Ferraris: via the (arg) via the agents own pc
• [14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: Zagro that's not how Second LIfe OR OpenSim does it right now, I believe
• [14:23] Zagro Ferraris: only for those cross grid items tho
• [14:23] Saijanai Kuhn: like I said 100+ discussions over the past year. You have a lot of catchup-reading to do ;-)
• [14:24] Zagro Ferraris: thats the problem ya need interconectivity thats a way to do it without causing a legesticks nightmare
• [14:24] Whump Linden: Zagro, like shoutcast streaming? Asset data to a reflector that then hands it out to the simulators and viewers?
• [14:24] Infinity Linden: are you really talking about cross-grid items, or items that are stored at a remote inventory server?
• [14:24] Saijanai Kuhn: also read the OpenSim discussions. they're doing things slightly differently than LL is and an OGP solution has to handle both
• [14:25] Infinity Linden: i've often thought that if we were going to keep a lot of UDP messages, we should (at least) make object updates go over RTP
• [14:25] Whump Linden: yeah, Adam has a recent post that I need to read
• [14:25] Saijanai Kuhn: RTP? Reverse HTTP or something else?
• [14:25] Infinity Linden: but that's way off
• [14:25] Infinity Linden: RTP == real-time protocol
• [14:25] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK, more googling
• [14:25] Infinity Linden: it's what VoIP bearer data frequently uses
• [14:26] Infinity Linden: but honestly... i think we're moving away from "excessive use of UDP"
• [14:26] Infinity Linden: and i don't want to reignite that discussion again
• [14:26] Zagro Ferraris: infinity it's a bit like remote items. the agent has an acount with an off gird sim Or open grid acount) they have items stord there that have the (cross grid tag) those items are pulled to the agents local pc via the agents internet conection stord localy and uploaded as needed to the sim on the grid the agent is on the asset never actuily enters ll's main database just temporarly in that preticular sim uplaoded via the agent
• [14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, all I'm looking for right now is a tentatively blessed way of sending things like the IIM packet over a cap
• [14:26] Saijanai Kuhn: note the word "send"
• [14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: I'd like to see Tao and I start playing with client to Ad and AD to AD communications
• [14:27] Whump Linden: i've got your pastebin URL open, Saij and so could take a stab at writing that in LLIDL.
• [14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: OK, that's taken from Locklainn's packet dictionary. Automatically generated
• [14:27] Infinity Linden: w00t! LLIDL use in the wild!
• [14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: so an LLIDL translator should be reasonably eay to come up with I hope
• [14:28] Whump Linden: so you'd need to get an IM cap back from place avatar?
• [14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: talking about one for talking directly to the AD< not the sim
• [14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: the inverse of the eventqueueget cap
• [14:29] Whump Linden: right, sorry, getting myself confused.
• [14:29] Saijanai Kuhn: that way we can start playing with outgoing messages like group IM, or whatever
• [14:30] Whump Linden: okay, I think I'm going to have to lobby Tess for that but can try
• [14:30] Zagro Ferraris: were talking about chat systems?
• [14:30] Whump Linden: Yes, in particular IM through the Agent Domain
• [14:31] Infinity Linden: right... we may have to have a wrestling match to see if we (I mean LL + AWG) sould try tackling IM or Inventory next
• [14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: talking about a general way for the viewer to talk to the rest of the world via the OGP standards
• [14:31] Infinity Linden: but yeah
• [14:31] Whump Linden: cool
• [14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: no reason why we can't play with both, IMHO
• [14:31] Zagro Ferraris: ok seems like looking at irc might help a bit lol but i dont have thefull picture on that part
• [14:31] Saijanai Kuhn: oh, and the script to generate that output: [2]
• [14:31] Infinity Linden: maybe the thing to do is define the protocol endpoint (a cap on the AD) for right now
• [14:32] Infinity Linden: then get peeps to start designing around it
• [14:32] Whump Linden: yes, and it could just use an adaptor to existing IM
• [14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: right. ALl I'm really looking for, that and the general format for the generic message
• [14:32] Whump Linden: okay
• [14:32] Zagro Ferraris: ok i'm landmarking and bolting :) i need to plan a head for listingin to this
• [14:32] Saijanai Kuhn: I figure once we get that in place, we can start testig ideas in parallel with Tao's python AD
• [14:33] Infinity Linden: right... we could define a LLIDL resource that describes the IM protocol messages
• [14:33] Whump Linden: cool, Zagro, there's a lot to read but there has been a lot of resident and linden thinking about it
• [14:33] Infinity Linden: and heck... rather than try to wrestle over whether we shold be using IRC or XMPP
• [14:33] Saijanai Kuhn: if there's a simple translator for the LLSD-XML to LLIDL format, could hook it into the current system no problem
• [14:33] Infinity Linden: just have it be an interface into the existing IM service
• [14:33] Whump Linden: yeah
• [14:34] Whump Linden: okay, take the packet and LLIDL it, ask about cap? Those are the two action items?
• [14:34] Infinity Linden: yup... there would no doubt be some engineering work here at LL
• [14:34] Saijanai Kuhn: precisely. Just squirt the incoming message into the current viewer code and leverage the GUI that eixsts. That's the biggest coding issue with using the current viewer: modding the GUI is beyond painful
• [14:34] Infinity Linden: Sai or Whump... you want me to pair with you on the LLIDLification of the packet
• [14:35] Saijanai Kuhn: and we could write translators for various IM formats to put the data into the IIM at the AD level
• [14:35] Whump Linden: Sai, would it be instructive to pair with Infinity on that?
• [14:35] Infinity Linden: and yeah... we should run this plan past the hive mind: Zero, Tess, Leyla
• [14:35] Infinity Linden: (er... the rest of the hive mind, that is)
• [14:35] Saijanai Kuhn: very instructive, though not sure how much I can contribute besides "huh"
• [14:35] Infinity Linden: @Sai... not sure i wanna volunteer to do those adaptors
• [14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure I know how, and if YOU don't wanna do it, its probably far worse than I'm thinking
• [14:36] Infinity Linden: but maybe we could spend some time friday morning working on it
• [14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
• [14:36] Whump Linden: at the PYOGP meeting?
• [14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: sounds good
• [14:36] Infinity Linden: hmm.. i just remembered i have an 8am meet
• [14:36] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao should be there too
• [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: pyogp is at 9:30 Enus's office
• [14:37] Infinity Linden: sure... this would be great.. i could get you guys to do the heavy lifting
• [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: or we could do it any time. My schedule is more than flexible
• [14:37] Infinity Linden: and i'll just chat about LLIDL and a touch about how our IM system works
• [14:37] Infinity Linden: and
• [14:37] Infinity Linden: i should probably ping Enus about it
• [14:37] Infinity Linden: it's his meeting... don't wanna hijack it
• [14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Sounds reasonable (whats up with that?)
• [14:38] Whump Linden: Reasonable? :)
• [14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: joking
• [14:38] Saijanai Kuhn: been reading too much political stuff lately
• [14:39] Whump Linden: Okay, we've run over time. But thanks for coming out. It does mean something to use that residents care about pricing and interop and other stuff that affects SL.
• [14:39] Infinity Linden: yup... and i've got to monkey along
• [14:39] Whump Linden: er, us, even
• [14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: hey, my attitude is that we may be defining the next itnernet protocol. FOr me, that's a lifetime project thing
• [14:40] Whump Linden: and I need to talk to Sean about the network changes
• [14:41] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks much for hosting this Whump. THanks for input, Infinity
• [14:41] Whump Linden: kk, glad to keep things moving along
• [14:41] Whump Linden: we've been in a bit of a slump and want to keep it moving