User:Whump Linden/Office Hours/Transcript 20081203

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  • [13:31] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning
  • [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: oh, hi morgaine sorry about that
  • [13:33] Whump Linden: Hey, folks.
  • [13:33] Drunk Dukes: hi Whump
  • [13:33] Astarte Wylie: hi Whump
  • [13:33] Morgaine Dinova: Nice to see you Whump : -)
  • [13:33] Drunk Dukes: nice avi : )
  • [13:33] Whump Linden: Thanks, Morgaine.
  • [13:34] Whump Linden: Thanks, DD, it's a favorite avatar of mine.
  • [13:34] Drunk Dukes: yeah it looks awesome
  • [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: hey whump
  • [13:34] Whump Linden: Though I think I should go back to a steampunk humanoid for the new year.
  • [13:34] Drunk Dukes: lol
  • [13:35] Morgaine Dinova: Do you frequent Caledon? Would be quite in character : -)
  • [13:35] Whump Linden: Anyhow, I had a couple of topics for today, one was a bug update, and the other was on meeting schedule.
  • [13:35] Whump Linden: Morgaine, I haven't been there in a while.
  • [13:36] Astarte Wylie: Whump, b4 u get started could Drunk and i bother u for your bear or the secret key for it pls
  • [13:36] Whump Linden: ah, that's for the gridnauts program, and I should update the sign.
  • [13:36] Whump Linden: I have my regular bear. Let me drop on of those on you both.
  • [13:36] Astarte Wylie: ahhh ok, thank u : ))
  • [13:36] Drunk Dukes: well to be honesst we where on a bear hunt and trying to find your secret key lol but the wiki pages i got send too doesnt really help
  • [13:37] Drunk Dukes: ty
  • [13:37] Whump Linden: cool
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, that would be nice. I'm very short of bears : -)
  • [13:37] Astarte Wylie: thank u whump, we will leave u all to your meeting now : ))
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Is there bear in an OPenSim or a LL sim?
  • [13:37] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Whump : -)
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: cause once Belxjander gets his AD running, people could log in and grab the bear wthout being part of gridnauts
  • [13:38] Whump Linden: No, because the secret key is based on your agent UUID + secret.
  • [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: OH. O well....
  • [13:38] Whump Linden: And you'll have a different Agent ID in his AD.
  • [13:38] Whump Linden: So, OGP work.
  • [13:39] Drunk Dukes: secret huh ?
  • [13:39] Drunk Dukes: i will find out lol
  • [13:39] Astarte Wylie: lol
  • [13:39] Drunk Dukes: im not that drunk
  • [13:39] Drunk Dukes: lmao
  • [13:39] Astarte Wylie: : )
  • [13:39] Astarte Wylie: ok thanks again for the bear whump
  • [13:40] Whump Linden: DD, it's a simple crypto function. I take the MD5 sum of your agent id and the secret and use the first six characters as the key.
  • [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: An AD providing access to all unencumbered Creative Commons items, that would be cool. Would speed up interop work, while everyone else worries about the much harder perms issues.
  • [13:40] Whump Linden: Then on this side, you enter the key, I recompute the secret and compare the two.
  • [13:41] Whump Linden: I should put out an example of the script.
  • [13:41] Whump Linden: Is Zha about?
  • [13:41] Astarte Wylie: u all have a good day bye
  • [13:41] Whump Linden: I'm wondering if we can use AWG Groupies for discussing the IM work.
  • [13:42] Whump Linden: by Astarte, DD, nice to meet you both.
  • [13:42] Drunk Dukes: have good meeting : )
  • [13:42] Drunk Dukes: nice to meet u : )
  • [13:42] Larissa Vacano: hello ;-)
  • [13:42] Whump Linden: Hi Larissa.
  • [13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Haven't heard from Zha today, but she gave an interesting talk on Tues monring
  • [13:44] Whump Linden: Another approach would be to have one office hour a week for an update on OGP work.
  • [13:45] Whump Linden: Hum, is chat coming through, or is it lagged for you all?
  • [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Testing
  • [13:46] Larissa Vacano: okay
  • [13:46] Larissa Vacano: i am here
  • [13:46] Whump Linden: I see you Morgaine.
  • [13:46] Larissa Vacano: i was afk
  • [13:46] Whump Linden: cool
  • [13:46] Whump Linden: okay
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: local chat is a tad lagged right now it seems
  • [13:46] Larissa Vacano: sorry now i am back
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: not any more
  • [13:46] Whump Linden: yes
  • [13:46] Morgaine Dinova: Seems OK to me. I was just moving around to find a seat without a mind of its own ;-)*[13:47] Whump Linden: yeah, the San Jos√© sofas have their own sits built in.
  • [13:49] Whump Linden: So, we've got a lot of office hours on the schedule, but Zero and others have been unable to hold them, so wanted to get feedback on if we can discuss OWG work in detail at the AWG Groupies meetings, or we have one meeting a week to review work?
  • [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: ANyway, said hi to Infinity earlier. She sounds busy but still committed to group IM in OGP which is a good thing
  • [13:49] Whump Linden: Yes, either she or myself would run the OGP IM meeting.
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: when would that be scheduled for?
  • [13:50] Morgaine Dinova: Well, the sun never sets client-side, only CA-side ... so anything you decide has to be fine with us, we'll accomodate it somehow : -)
  • [13:50] Whump Linden: not sure, but probably use one of Zero's existing slots or my OO.
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: That sounds ominous. We were starting to get the hint that Zero's absence wasn't going to be just Oct-Nov as stated : -(
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Sadly
  • [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: sent an IRC message to Zha don't know if she's near her comp or not
  • [13:52] Whump Linden: There's Zha.
  • [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Ah Zha should see it now
  • [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: hey Zha
  • [13:53] Whump Linden: Hey Zha, we we talking about meeting schedules.
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova waves at Zha
  • [13:53] Larissa Vacano: hello Zha
  • [13:53] Zha Ewry waits for something to rez 1.22.2
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Don't worry, you're not ressed on anyone's nose ;-)
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry chuckles
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: This has to be about the slowest rezzzing RC in six months
  • [13:54] Morgaine Dinova: I always seem to res on Sai's head at Zero's
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: So...
  • [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: I try to remember to get the SLURL THEN sit, but sometimes forget
  • [13:55] Zha Ewry: I keep trying to rermmber to get prim tomatoes to toss over the parcel boundray
  • [13:55] BlueWall Slade: hehe
  • [13:55] Whump Linden: Zha, so the question was if AWG Groupies was an appropriate venue where we can discuss any ongoing OGP work, or if we want a separate meeting.
  • [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: I actually remember putting dad's tomatoes on the end of a stick and slinging them. Don't think dad nor neighbours were impressed.
  • [13:56] Zha Ewry: I think it is totally apprpriate
  • [13:56] Whump Linden: cool
  • [13:56] Zha Ewry: What I'd love to have, is some vague sense of roadmap forward
  • [13:57] Morgaine Dinova: Roadmap would be nice
  • [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: me2
  • [13:57] Whump Linden: I'd like to have that too.
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: We got sort of first useful "yeah, we can cooperate" proofs this summer
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: and now we feeel quite stalled out
  • [13:58] Morgaine Dinova: AWG feels highly stalled
  • [13:58] Whump Linden: Saij, how far have you and Zha gotten with the IM stuff?
  • [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: haven't really. I've been off on tangents (as usual) and Zha has been busy*[13:59] Zha Ewry: if we're going to do an IM gateway, we're sort of gogn to want soem story of how it relates to the work as a whole
  • [14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Yes
  • [14:00] Zha Ewry: For example, a IM GW which was anchored inthe Agent Domain (which is a good long term story) does very little in the shor tterm, as there seems no plan to actually deploy the AD
  • [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: right. Want to think of group IM as the test case for a generic service discovery mechanism and outgoing data transfer. ONce we have that, bel and me and whoever can start playing with custom services
  • [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: IM "GW"?
  • [14:01] Whump Linden: IM gateway.
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: same issue, tho, which is do we every see it deployed in non test cases. if not, the temptation becomes to do it out of the OGP context
  • [14:01] eaglefx Binder: Evening
  • [14:01] Whump Linden: evening
  • [14:02] BlueWall Slade: hello
  • [14:02] Larissa Vacano: hello
  • [14:02] Whump Linden: Yes, I understand we're lost momentum here.
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: Although, I think it might be better if the AD authenticated access to an IM gateway service that is not the SL one ... given that there are severe problem with the SL one. It would also be a good test for the IM service (for Groupies alone) to be a 3rd party channel.
  • [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: right. I'd like a standardized way to inquire about such things, and to create outgoing message hookups to the AD. We have a format for incoming, and P2P cn be completely custom, but we need a standard way to START the process
  • [14:03] Whump Linden: Oh, I can turn on temporary object creation.
  • [14:04] Saijanai Kuhn: There are real world companies that offer P2P musci collaboration services, for example. That would be a BIG draw for some types of people to SL
  • [14:04] Zha Ewry explits the enter vs. rez loophole : -)
  • [14:04] Morgaine Dinova: Does SL AD need to provide service discovery for a 3rd party IM service though? Why not just use AD to auth agent and use that to enter another party's IM service?
  • [14:05] Morgaine Dinova: Start some real interop going : -)
  • [14:05] eaglefx Binder: yes would be nice ;)
  • [14:05] eaglefx Binder: i seems to be the only one jumping all the sims .. lol
  • [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: MOrgaine, yeah, that would be a nice long term thing P2P between ADs instead of clients, BUT same pattern should work for just about eery usecase
  • [14:07] Zha Ewry: You don't want P2p between clients, in the large, inthe 2009 world of IPV4 and firewalls
  • [14:07] Whump Linden: Okay, but from a logistics POV, we could drop down to a meeting a week on this.
  • [14:07] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, but the point was that SL IM wasn't providing Groupies with a very useful IM service, so kill 2 birds with one stone : -)
  • [14:08] Zha Ewry: I'd like some story about the path forward, and yes, one meeting a week feels fine. Is there any plan, looking forward on the AD and such, or is that on long term hold?
  • [14:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Zha, it might be just a dedicated CAP to an external server that is only letting 5-20 people talk together like for music jam sessions, but its a real world application that fits in with SL
  • [14:09] Whump Linden: the plan's being hashed out at a level above me, I'm only able to get some input on meeting logistics at the moment, sorry.
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry: No worry
  • [14:09] Morgaine Dinova: Zha if it's a long-term hold, AWG will fail in its 2-year mission
  • [14:09] Zha Ewry nods
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: that is an issue
  • [14:10] Dahlia Trimble: was there ever a timeline?
  • [14:10] Zha Ewry: There was back a year ago
  • [14:11] Zha Ewry: There was, at the time, also somthing of a plan, that said, getting the AD deployed was an important part of the long term structure of SL
  • [14:11] Morgaine Dinova: Well, there was the idea that a tentative protocol would be usable early on, and finalied for IETF consideration within the AWG liespan
  • [14:11] Morgaine Dinova: lifespan*
  • [14:11] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [14:12] Morgaine Dinova: But we seem to have got stuck at teleport and rez.
  • [14:12] Morgaine Dinova: Which are the least interesring parts
  • [14:12] Morgaine Dinova: Well, not least.: -) But we're not moving ahead onto object transport
  • [14:14] Zha Ewry: Right, which. gets back to the roadmap, and, at some level auth/policy discussions
  • [14:15] Saijanai Kuhn: RIght, Belxjander is workign on his Agent Domain but is jumping 20 steps ahead of OGP. WOuld be good to have discussion about where he's heading and how the OGP can accomidate some of his ideas cause otherwise he's got no compatibility with anyone
  • [14:15] Morgaine Dinova: Link to Bel's stuff?
  • [14:16] Saijanai Kuhn: hasn't made it public yet. He just talks about it in IRC late at night (lives in Japan)
  • [14:16] Morgaine Dinova: kk
  • [14:16] Zha Ewry: and Christa is pushing off in other directions with hypegrid. The moment of things stayign coherent is not long to last
  • [14:16] Morgaine Dinova: Example of "20 steps ahead"?
  • [14:16] Dahlia Trimble: the hyergrid stuff seems to be gaining momentum
  • [14:17] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: agreed. Zero maintained that coherence.
  • [14:17] BlueWall Slade: people want to explore
  • [14:17] Saijanai Kuhn: he's talking about his own IM gateways, the ability to keep track of inventory between grids and the like
  • [14:18] Morgaine Dinova: That's all good, I want rapid progress. But I also want interop, not 1,000 walled gardens
  • [14:18] Whump Linden: And I'm trying to keep up with the developments like hypergrid and jhurilman's inventory services, and make sure our folks are aware of that.
  • [14:18] BlueWall Slade: jhurliman is working on a distributed asset service
  • [14:18] Saijanai Kuhn: right, which is why I'd like more interaction on a level beyond here's the TP protocol
  • [14:18] Morgaine Dinova: BlueWall: that sounds excellent
  • [14:19] BlueWall Slade: are they growing cold to the idea of interop?
  • [14:19] Saijanai Kuhn: which to my mind goes back to service discovery and a standardized outgoing protocol for Client => AD communication
  • [14:19] Whump Linden: I can't speak for management about that, BlueWall.
  • [14:19] Morgaine Dinova: Don't know. Some kind of internal logjam, everyone's wondering what's going on. : -) But it's very bad for the group.
  • [14:20] BlueWall Slade: understood
  • [14:20] Saijanai Kuhn: which is what gorup IM does as part of the process (or it should)
  • [14:20] Whump Linden: But keep in mind that we are also trying to steer a business through a recesssion, so interop may not be top of mind presence for them.
  • [14:20] Morgaine Dinova: Who's the highest up Linden with office hours?
  • [14:21] Whump Linden: Zero was.
  • [14:21] Morgaine Dinova: Ouch
  • [14:22] Dahlia Trimble: is that an official "was" ?
  • [14:22] Whump Linden: zoy
  • [14:22] Whump Linden: gah, client freeze
  • [14:22] Morgaine Dinova: Well we all know where the bad road leads: everyone doing their own thing, the open worlds advancing at a rate of knots, and LL losing grip on the tiger's tail. That would be sad.
  • [14:23] Whump Linden: Dahlia, at the moment it's not an offiocial was.
  • [14:24] BlueWall Slade: sed s/the/to/
  • [14:24] Morgaine Dinova: In a recession, the only resource that isn't affected is community manpower. The choice not to use it is a very poor one.
  • [14:25] Whump Linden: BlueWall, all I can ask for right now is some more patience while things get sorted.
  • [14:25] Morgaine Dinova: At least Rob's triaging harnesses community fairly well.
  • [14:26] BlueWall Slade: sure, I really appreciate you looking into that viewer issue
  • [14:26] BlueWall Slade: a lot of eyes could help with that with a different license
  • [14:26] BlueWall Slade: because of the OpenSim rules
  • [14:27] Whump Linden: I'm not the one looking into it, but I'll have some feedback next week.
  • [14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Blue Wall, at least the PYogp viewer is under Apache license... ;-)
  • [14:27] Dahlia Trimble: pyogp "viewer"?
  • [14:27] eaglefx Binder: lol, yes i wondered that too
  • [14:27] BlueWall Slade: hehe Dahlia you have competition
  • [14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: library whatever
  • [14:27] Saijanai Kuhn: lightweight test client...
  • [14:28] BlueWall Slade: well, it's pretty exciting to see all the new ideas taking off
  • [14:28] Saijanai Kuhn: hey it could be a vewier... 2D only for the forseeable future, but should be easy to grab mini map texture and avatar locs and show a minimap interface (should be easy)(
  • [14:28] Dahlia Trimble will consider selling you some meshing code ;)
  • [14:28] Morgaine Dinova: Well the only merit in using GPL for the viewer was to be sure to get a million patches back. But if you're not integrating those million patches anyway then GPL is pointless, so might as well have BSD'd it and given more peopl the opportunity to hack.
  • [14:29] eaglefx Binder: What is the timeframe for getting the TP stuff into the SL Viewer?*[14:30] eaglefx Binder: if any ;)
  • [14:30] Morgaine Dinova chuckles at question
  • [14:30] Zha Ewry listens intently*[14:30] Dahlia Trimble giggles
  • [14:30] eaglefx Binder: heh
  • [14:30] Whump Linden: eaglefx, I don't have an answer
  • [14:31] eaglefx Binder: okay
  • [14:31] Morgaine Dinova: Well let's put it this way Don Linden's timeline for the "almost fully working O(1) arrays in LSL" was under a month ... 3 years ago ;-)
  • [14:31] eaglefx Binder: a beta cycle usually has numbers, and you have none for this? ;)
  • [14:33] Dahlia Trimble: I'd settle for O(n^2) arrays in LSL as a start ;)
  • [14:33] Morgaine Dinova: Hehehe
  • [14:33] Whump Linden: Okay. I don't think there's anything else I can do here today. I understand everyone's frustration.
  • [14:33] BlueWall Slade: ok, is there anything we can do as customers of LL to help out?
  • [14:33] Dahlia Trimble: sorry whump, just trying to make levity of things
  • [14:33] Dahlia Trimble: thanks : )
  • [14:35] Dahlia Trimble: poofs... bye all , thanks )
  • [14:36] Zha Ewry: Morgaine, I've neen trying to scale you up to 10M, and I can't find any little collored boxes to grab. Are you sure you're scalable?
  • [14:36] Morgaine Dinova: LOL
  • [14:37] Morgaine Dinova: My sliders are a bit stuck at the moment, or I'd scale, I swear ;-)
  • [14:37] Whump Linden: Okay, I need to head off. Thanks for coming by.
  • [14:37] BlueWall Slade: Thanks whump
  • [14:37] Zha Ewry takes a deep breath, and nods
  • [14:37] Zha Ewry: "Thanks"
  • [14:37] Larissa Vacano: thank you
  • [14:37] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks muchly whump
  • [14:37] eaglefx Binder: yw, thanks bye
  • [14:37] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Whump --- hope you get yourselve's sorted out, it's painful looking in from where we stand : -(
  • [14:38] BlueWall Slade: bye all
  • [14:39] Whump Linden: thanks Morgaine
  • [14:39] eaglefx Binder: okay see ya, happy gridnauting ;)
  • [14:39] Whump Linden: see you all around
  • [14:40] Saijanai Kuhn: so ouchies and all that
  • [14:40] Morgaine Dinova: Very painful meeting, they're clearly distressed*[14:41] Zha Ewry observes, that in the past six months, they've picked up a new CEO, and shed both Cory, and Phil, form day to day engagement
  • [14:42] Morgaine Dinova: Who is the CEO now?
  • [14:42] Zha Ewry: Mark Kingdon
  • [14:42] Saijanai Kuhn: M LInden?*[14:43] Larissa Vacano: MLinden is ceo
  • [14:43] Zha Ewry: What I don't love at all, is the lack of a CTO, and c coherent technical vision
  • [14:43] Saijanai Kuhn: yar. Wondering if Zero is being groomed for that spot...
  • [14:43] Morgaine Dinova: KK, I don't really much care for CEO things ... only liked Phil because of his visionary parts, which had nothing to do with the Exec bit*[14:44] Zha Ewry: What sort of annoys, is everyone pretty much sees the openSource wave loomign behind them, and then goes back to pushing on thier bit of the sandcastle
  • [14:44] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
  • [14:45] Zha Ewry: The wave is going to mess up the sand no matter what
  • [14:45] Zha Ewry: it would be better for all involved if it was constructive, not destructive
  • [14:45] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, the trick is to ride the wave not just get out of the wqy (unless you think its too big, in which case this is all moot anyway)
  • [14:45] Morgaine Dinova: On seeing the wave approach, the only sane approach is to grab the surfboard and harness it.*[14:46] Zha Ewry: yeps*[14:49] Saijanai Kuhn: I still don't know wenough networking stuff to dive in without advice. I mean, we can define outgoing LLSD/SML type stuff, but without some definition for what the AD should be expecting, its not a very productive thing I think
  • [14:49] Saijanai Kuhn: LLSD/XML*
  • [14:51] Saijanai Kuhn: any ideas on that Zha?
  • [14:51] Morgaine Dinova: We need someone to run an OpenSim hacked to be purely an OGP vehicle
  • [14:51] Zha Ewry: Ahh. There is is
  • [14:51] Saijanai Kuhn: should we try to copy EQG format but in an outward direction or should we go with something new?
  • [14:51] Morgaine Dinova: Aha! Zha's gonna ride the open source wave!!!
  • [14:51] Morgaine Dinova giggles
  • [14:51] Larissa Vacano: LOL
  • [14:51] Zha Ewry: I knew I had it somehere
  • [14:52] Saijanai Kuhn: cause the format is reasonably simple, but the details like the message number and how that is used, are confusing (and inconsistent it seems to me)
  • [14:52] Larissa Vacano: i have to go for now, see you soon
  • [14:52] Larissa Vacano: bye bye
  • [14:52] Saijanai Kuhn: zha goes ape
  • [14:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Laters Larissa
  • [14:52] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Larissa
  • [14:53] Zha Ewry: Well
  • [14:53] Zha Ewry: I am looking, quite serously, at doing the minium to have an OGP agent domain up
  • [14:53] Zha Ewry: But....
  • [14:53] Morgaine Dinova: As a separate chunk of code?
  • [14:53] Zha Ewry: Probably as a OpenSIm service
  • [14:53] Saijanai Kuhn: Bel's been working on his own. He's hard to get ahold of at reasonable horus (for us at least)
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: which means you could run it as
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: part of a standalone
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: or as its own service
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: or in a grid
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: BUT...
  • [14:54] Saijanai Kuhn: right. Goes back to trust issues though, when it connects to a metagrid (like SL)
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: Anhoring all this on the Linden Agent Domain approach, only makes sense
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: when you have a comittment from Linden to go that way
  • [14:54] Zha Ewry: Otherwise
  • [14:55] Morgaine Dinova: Ignore the trust issues for now, stick to CC assets
  • [14:55] Zha Ewry: you might as well push on it from a more services dfecomposition approach
  • [14:55] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but none defined in SL, so we have to come up with a SL-compatible protocol
  • [14:55] Morgaine Dinova: We need to get objects moving ... STOPPING them moving is the easy part ;-)
  • [14:55] Saijanai Kuhn: and let them play catchup when they can which will be less than popular at LL
  • [14:55] Zha Ewry chuckles*[14:56] Zha Ewry: Very True Morgaine, and the real issue, is't going to be gettign them moving, but rather
  • [14:56] Zha Ewry: gettign them movign efficinetly
  • [14:56] Saijanai Kuhn: that's why I'd like to see the service discovery and outgoing cap protocols defined. That way, we have something that is at least compatible in theory, and can start playing with new stuff
  • [14:57] Zha Ewry: I'd peek at the hypergrid stuff Christa is loking at on OpenSim
  • [14:57] Saijanai Kuhn: Is it caps based?
  • [14:57] Zha Ewry: Nope
  • [14:57] Saijanai Kuhn: -/
  • [14:57] Zha Ewry: Look, Caps are clever
  • [14:57] Saijanai Kuhn: nothing against non-CAPs. just know the reaction that Zero would have
  • [14:58] Zha Ewry: but.. if Linden doesn't promote them as part of the world, as opposed to turnign its back on stuff
  • [14:58] Saijanai Kuhn: trying to be the team player here and all that
  • [14:58] Zha Ewry: they are a dead end
  • [14:58] Morgaine Dinova: Caps may be nice, but unless Zero holds the reigns together, there will be no more talk of caps in 6 months time, or less.
  • [14:58] Morgaine Dinova: Exactly
  • [14:58] Zha Ewry concrus
  • [14:59] Zha Ewry: Concurrs, even
  • [14:59] Saijanai Kuhn : which goes back to the two main missing bits in the protocol: service discovery and out-going messaging. Group IM would hel define both. Something simpler would do just fine too. But we need SOMETHING we can point to and say "this is a page"
  • [14:59] Zha Ewry: Or rather, only within Linden's closed walled garden
  • [15:00] Morgaine Dinova: Sai why are you stuck on service discovery? Why not conjure up the service out of thin air, for now?
  • [15:00] Zha Ewry: As a note Any work I do on basic establishment of SSL pipes between components will be CAPS nuetural
  • [15:00] Zha Ewry: Caps, being just http/https endpoints, I dont need to do much to support them
  • [15:01] Saijanai Kuhn: well, goes back to having something LL compatible. If we roll our own protocol that has nothing to do with LL, then its kinda ignorning what the AWG is supposed to do. Might as well go OpenSim only if we ignore LL completely
  • [15:01] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: I did say "for now" though. Where the service came from could be filled in later.
  • [15:01] Zha Ewry: anyway.
  • [15:02] Zha Ewry: Two things which would be fun to do:
  • [15:02] Saijanai Kuhn: well, trying to keep it within the AD paradigm in some way. Let the AD do the authentication and provide the endpoint even if itsw just relaying it from some other server
  • [15:02] Zha Ewry: and AG outside of the Linden code base
  • [15:02] Saijanai Kuhn: AD?
  • [15:02] Zha Ewry: and an extension to the OGP teleport protoocl to pass along the UUIDs of the ave's worn/attached set
  • [15:03] Zha Ewry: and some simple passing of the ref back to the grid/sim/service which holds htose UUIDs
  • [15:03] Zha Ewry: if Linden doesn't do it, it's going to happen anyway
  • [15:03] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
  • [15:03] Zha Ewry observes, the point at which OpenSim resolves a UUID is pretty local
  • [15:03] Saijanai Kuhn: Already has in various ways. That's why Gareth got stomped on
  • [15:04] Zha Ewry: He got stomped on becuase he did it with Linden Servers
  • [15:04] Zha Ewry: Thus the non linden AD
  • [15:04] Saijanai Kuhn: right, which was silly of him, but o well. However, he had a solution working of SOME kind
  • [15:06] Morgaine Dinova: I get this dreadful feeling that their new CEO actually put his thinking cap on and realized that this current walled garden is a little time capsule of regular easy income that will disappear when interop starts, and so has said "no" ... to the distress of all.
  • [15:07] Morgaine Dinova: Trouble is, Philip doesn't fit that hypothesis. He's still on board after all.
  • [15:07] Morgaine Dinova: So I'm out of good hypotheses.
  • [15:07] Saijanai Kuhn: I think there may be a desire to slow things down, or it just may be new CEO pains combined with recission issues
  • [15:07] Saijanai Kuhn: recession
  • [15:08] Zha Ewry: I'd argue as much as anything
  • [15:08] Zha Ewry: its a combination, of new execs
  • [15:08] Saijanai Kuhn: someone said *something8 about LL layoffs but they may have been talking about Cory and Phil which aren't related to the recession as far as I know
  • [15:08] Zha Ewry: and.. timeline
  • [15:09] Zha Ewry: They have to keep growing, or they die.. and the AWG work, has not been movign terribly quickly
  • [15:09] Zha Ewry: Largely that is on thier end
  • [15:09] Zha Ewry: but.. it is always easier to patch anbd spackle for a while
  • [15:09] Zha Ewry: then invest upfront
  • [15:09] Saijanai Kuhn admires republican take on "spending too much money" on infrastructure work
  • [15:09] Zha Ewry: Oh well. I need to go solve RL problems
  • [15:10] Zha Ewry: Some of which are non unrelated to this discussion
  • [15:10] Saijanai Kuhn: OMG. RL!
  • [15:10] Morgaine Dinova: Well we have to accept the possibility of LL dying. But VWs won't. So where do we want VWs to go, is the more interesting question.
  • [15:10] Zha Ewry: quiite
  • [15:10] Zha Ewry: And, for what it's worth
  • [15:11] Zha Ewry: I'd argue that you want to have a good answerr for why Linden has floruished compared to most of the others, when you answer that question
  • [15:11] Zha Ewry: and.. on that note, off to RL
  • [15:11] Morgaine Dinova: I know the answer to that one ... and cya : -)
  • [15:11] Saijanai Kuhn: laters. /me is nodding off for a bit as well
  • [15:12] Zha Ewry: do you?
  • [15:12] Zha Ewry: In one sentance?
  • [15:12] Saijanai Kuhn: all virtual worlds survive due to a sense of commuynity that brings people back to tHAT world with familiar people, rather thna new ones
  • [15:12] Morgaine Dinova:  : Yepgreed by creators, buy-in by futurists, and a temporarily lucrative business model based on getting paid for land that costs nothing ;-)
  • [15:13] Morgaine Dinova: Easy. Next question?
  • [15:13] Morgaine Dinova chuckles
  • [15:13] Saijanai Kuhn: games, quests/raids, etc, are just ways to give them something to do while they are standing around talking
  • [15:14] Zha Ewry listens and smiles. I think land is about 1/2 of it
  • [15:14] Zha Ewry: Ok. Off for real
  • [15:14] Morgaine Dinova: That's not wholy true Sai, but partly yes
  • [15:15] Morgaine Dinova: Not wholly just from my personal experience in one game, GW ... it gains its audience from the opposite of sense of community --- enabling multiplayer with community avoidance ;-)
  • [15:17] Morgaine Dinova: You see people in the towns, cringe at the chat for 30s, then get you 7 AI heros and henchmen and head out into battle zones, with a nice team, but no annoying people :-)
  • [15:17] Morgaine Dinova: Makes it very popular : -)
  • [15:18] Morgaine Dinova: It's an interesting point for sociologists and philosophers ... how AIs can create a better "community" than people : P
  • [15:25] Morgaine Dinova: Heading out Sai, see ya later