User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 May 03

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[7:31] Ryozu Kojima: MoveToTarget? Yeah
[7:31] Ryozu Kojima shrugs.
[7:31] Dr Scofield: hi zha
[7:32] Zha Ewry: Hey Dr.
[7:32] Ryozu Kojima: MoveToTarget will Dampen your position to your current position at any distance above 64 meters
[7:32] Zero Linden: Good morning all
[7:32] Marcello Aldwych: let me start working, and i'll keep you posted how well I am doing
[7:32] Ryozu Kojima: You can either applyimpulse to overcome it
[7:32] Dr Scofield: hi zero
[7:32] Ryozu Kojima: Or activate it when within distance
[7:32] Rex Cronon: good morning
[7:32] Zha Ewry: Morning Zero
[7:32] Marcello Aldwych: is there a meeting here now ?
[7:32] Ryozu Kojima: Alright, good luck Marceollo, Office hours begin =)
[7:32] Marcello Aldwych: hello all
[7:33] Marcello Aldwych: thanks and see you later Ryozu
[7:33] Marcello Aldwych: bye for now
[7:33] Ryozu Kojima waves.
[7:34] Wyn Galbraith sits down quickly soshe stays put. "Good morning."
[7:34] Tree Kyomoon: morning zero
[7:34] Zha Ewry: Rough Mornign Wyn?
[7:35] Zero Linden: Welcome to office hours - transcript to be put in wiki - talk about tech - yadda yadda yadda....
[7:35] Zero Linden: there that's over with
[7:35] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[7:35] Tree Kyomoon: did you guys cover scupted prims last time?
[7:35] Zero Linden: So - group messinging and friends feel better?
[7:35] Ryozu Kojima: A bit
[7:35] Zero Linden: Not in any technical sense, Tree
[7:35] Tree Kyomoon: i think its incredibly cool, great concept
[7:35] Wyn Galbraith can't wait for those, "The artist in me is so excited to get my hands on those."
[7:36] Ryozu Kojima: No kidding, can't believe anyone really thinks they're bad
[7:36] Tree Kyomoon: would be nice to have sculpting tools in world
[7:36] Wyn Galbraith: Who would think they're bad?
[7:36] Ryozu Kojima: I imagine those will come at some point
[7:36] Wyn Galbraith: I've been wishing for them since I came here.
[7:36] Ryozu Kojima: People think they're more polygons, and will run slower on the client
[7:36] Zero Linden: Do people? Really? I've noticed over my time in SL that people are very conservative: they fear any change to the system
[7:36] Ryozu Kojima: Others think they'll ruin the economy
[7:36] Rex Cronon: those that don't have high-end graphics cards might not like them
[7:37] Zha Ewry: A bit, Zero, tho. We're still seenig some people who don't update when the log off
[7:37] Wyn Galbraith: I fear no change.
[7:37] Zero Linden: More polygons? Than twisted tortured cut hollow tubes?!?!?!?!
[7:37] Tree Kyomoon: yes, particularly evidenced in that "open letter of paranoia"
[7:37] Ryozu Kojima: LOL, no kidding Zero!
[7:37] Wyn Galbraith: Life is change, either you adapt or you die.
[7:37] Jarod Godel: Zero, that's whatcha get when your uer base is made of users.
[7:37] Ryozu Kojima: Now, the Open letter does have some valid concerns, at least it was worded nicely =P
[7:37] Jarod Godel: *user
[7:37] Wyn Galbraith: Good one Tree.
[7:38] Ryozu Kojima: Others are convinced that sculpted prims will only be for the elite 3D artists
[7:38] Zero Linden: Hey, with sculpted prims - at least it can all be done in the vertex shader - on the video card
[7:38] Wyn Galbraith: At Robin's meeting there seemed to be more concern over the badly drawn sun.
[7:38] Ryozu Kojima laughs.
[7:38] Jarod Godel: Wyn, well, the sun is the center of our universe.
[7:38] Wyn Galbraith will have to be elite then.
[7:38] Tree Kyomoon: yes, so what about remotely hosting the images, on our own webservers?
[7:39] Zero Linden: uhm - right 'cause LL is going to require "elite artist" certiication before we enable the sculpted prim editor.....
[7:39] Dr Scofield is surprised, thought the earth was...
[7:39] Ryozu Kojima: They think Sculpted Prims won't have an in game editor
[7:39] Ryozu Kojima: For a while
[7:39] Wyn Galbraith: The sun is ... well, something to give confort to those who don't like change and to make the VR sky interesting.
[7:39] Ryozu Kojima: That's the general fear I've been hearing
[7:39] Rex Cronon: i hope u kidding zero
[7:39] Jarod Godel: SSL = Sculpted Sculpture Licensing.
[7:39] Ryozu Kojima: Thus you'll "have to buy Maya for $6bazillion dollarz"
[7:39] Zero Linden: sorry - hard to express sarcastic voice in chat
[7:39] Wyn Galbraith: *comfort
[7:39] Ryozu Kojima: Aye
[7:39] Ryozu Kojima: ;)
[7:40] Zero Linden: Well - there won't be a in-viewer editor from us - just the - "apply this texture as the shape map"
[7:40] Tree Kyomoon: and spend 8 years working through the incomprehensible interface of Maya
[7:40] Zero Linden: as shown in the video
[7:40] Ryozu Kojima: Right, which is fine, as long as there is a free way to make those textures logically
[7:40] Wyn Galbraith tends to take things literally sometime ;)
[7:40] Ryozu Kojima: Which I imagine there WILL be
[7:40] Zero Linden: But I believe that a) there are, or can easily be, plug ins for other 3D software
[7:40] Zero Linden: and b) the viewer is open source - if you think you can make a good sculpty prim editor - do it!
[7:41] Ryozu Kojima giggles.
[7:41] Wyn Galbraith: My son worked for Sega and knows Maya.
[7:41] Rex Cronon: and sell it?
[7:41] Tree Kyomoon: how is maya these days?
[7:41] Ryozu Kojima: Heh!
[7:41] Ryozu Kojima: Well Rex, someone's selling a Clothing maker on SLX
[7:41] Ryozu Kojima: So why not
[7:42] Wyn Galbraith: They canned him a couple of years ago, he did motion capture and they decided they were paying him and his boss too much. :)
[7:42] Jarod Godel: AUGH
[7:42] Ryozu Kojima: Ouch
[7:42] Jarod Godel: witch!
[7:42] Zero Linden: My spouse just bought Maya and loaded up the several 100 Meg of tutorials....
[7:42] Tree Kyomoon: yes, I trid that once
[7:42] Ryozu Kojima: I want a ZBrush plugin
[7:42] Ryozu Kojima: ZBrush is amazing for making things like that
[7:42] Tree Kyomoon: I got a copy of Maya from a rep in sandiego
[7:42] Wyn Galbraith: Still I bet if it's a mp that it won't be that hard to figure out.
[7:43] Zero Linden: The concept of the texture mapping is easy - so I imagine folks will easily build plugins for those 3D apps that don't support it yet
[7:43] Wyn Galbraith: *mp =map
[7:43] Ryozu Kojima: Indeed
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: yes
[7:43] Zero Linden: the harder part, the reason that maya is so expensive, is that 3D editing interfaces are difficult to make functional
[7:43] Zero Linden: well, to make highly functional
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: so what about hosting textures and shapes on remote web servers?
[7:43] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[7:43] Wyn Galbraith: Oh, I think I still have access to educational software.
[7:44] Ryozu Kojima: I don't see that happening, personally
[7:44] Rex Cronon: wouldn't be better, if a importer/exporter to .obj files was available?
[7:44] Ryozu Kojima: Hey Zero... Here's a fun question for you
[7:44] Ryozu Kojima: Video streaming and scultped prims
[7:44] Zero Linden: When we have remote hosted textures- the sculpted shapes will come for free... they are just textures themselves
[7:44] Zero Linden: The dev path is this:
[7:44] Zero Linden: 1) textures over HTTP
[7:44] Tree Kyomoon: yay remote hosted textures!
[7:44] Zero Linden: 2) remote hosted textures
[7:45] Zero Linden: #1 is coded and running in house
[7:45] Zero Linden: it is twice as fast as the current texture download -- in our limited testing
[7:45] Tree Kyomoon: yay twice as fast!
[7:45] Zero Linden: we haven't seen what it does under more stressful conditions - like over slow internet connections
[7:45] Dr Scofield: any ideas on how you are going to charge for remote hosted textures?
[7:45] Zero Linden: or under high-packet loss situations
[7:45] Tree Kyomoon: yay not going to charge !
[7:45] Zero Linden: Dr. - we aren't going to charge for remote hosted textures
[7:45] Dr Scofield: nice!
[7:46] Ryozu Kojima: The charge for uploading textures is more to discourage mass upload of textures and bog down the asset server
[7:46] Wyn Galbraith: Did Autodesk buy Maya?
[7:46] Ryozu Kojima: I believe
[7:46] Dr Scofield: so, i could have a photo collection tied to prim surfaces
[7:46] Wyn Galbraith: Wow.
[7:46] Dr Scofield: ?
[7:46] Rex Cronon: so the slviewer gets them directly from the host without going through the LL servers?
[7:47] Ryozu Kojima: As long as it's not stored on the asset server, it may not matter?
[7:47] Tree Kyomoon: yes, and could you get texutres from perl scripts, so you could do image editing in world
[7:47] Zero Linden: upload charges are about 1/4 of the sinks in the money supply
[7:47] Zero Linden: but that includes all types
[7:47] Wyn Galbraith: 389.98 from journeyed.com for Maya
[7:47] Ryozu Kojima: True, but people want free, Wyn
[7:48] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[7:48] Wyn Galbraith: Well good software isn't free.
[7:48] Tree Kyomoon: hey thats one months teir fee on an island almost
[7:48] Wyn Galbraith: Except for Linux ;)
[7:48] Ryozu Kojima: True
[7:48] Dr Scofield: exactly :-)
[7:48] Ryozu Kojima: Except SL? ;)
[7:48] Zero Linden: Rex - yes - the viewer will be going directly to the server
[7:48] Wyn Galbraith: And to be legal one has to pay. That's the software realm.
[7:49] Zero Linden: we've decided against the version where the viewer gets it from the simhost which in turn gets it from the external server
[7:49] Zero Linden: although - alas, that is the version that is coded right now (it is was a little easier...)
[7:50] Ryozu Kojima: Too much bandwidth there? I imagine heavier loads would kill the server. The only issue I'd have about getting it directly from the server is, that would make it a lot easier to steal those textures
[7:50] Rex Cronon: but the host can get the ip addressof who requests the image, no more annonymous users?
[7:50] Ryozu Kojima: Not that it's terribly hard anyways I suppose
[7:50] Ryozu Kojima: That too
[7:50] Tree Kyomoon: screen captcha
[7:50] Zero Linden: whoa.... hold on
[7:51] Zero Linden: Bandwidth? Well, we either get a texture from the asset server for a face, or we get it from an external server - on average about the same
[7:51] Zero Linden: and we still expect the vast bulk of textures to be in the asset system --
[7:51] Zero Linden: for L$10 - it is cheep hosting!
[7:51] Ryozu Kojima: I'd expect differently, to be honest, free webhosting is abundant
[7:51] Tree Kyomoon: right but they all get squeezed through your IP, with externals they can be independent of linden right?
[7:51] Zero Linden: free webhosting is ... well ... what you pay for
[7:52] Jarod Godel: Not many free hosts allow external image usage. Flickr, PhotoBucket...
[7:52] Ryozu Kojima: Well, two different issues Tree, Bandwith usage by LL's servers and Privacy of IPs
[7:52] Zero Linden: When the texture is external, and our servers are fetching it, it means our servers have to handle the vagueries of all those external servers
[7:52] Zero Linden: rather than just the asset system
[7:52] Tree Kyomoon: so it cant just go from external IP to viewer??
[7:52] Ryozu Kojima: One with a dedicated host can use an LSL script to log times of visitors and HTTP logs of downloads of a texture and roughtly associate an IP with a username
[7:52] Zero Linden: and there is almost no advantage to us fetching the texture for you
[7:52] Tree Kyomoon: why create the bottleneck?
[7:53] Rex Cronon: right ryozu
[7:53] Zero Linden: Exactly Tree, that is what we've decided to do
[7:53] Zero Linden: there are two downsides to it:
[7:53] Ryozu Kojima: To protect the IP of the users
[7:54] Zero Linden: 1) Both the viewer (and the user) thus know the URL of the source, and hence the machine -- and the external server knows the IP of the viewer (though not which user -- but that can be correlated against inworld objects)
[7:54] Zero Linden: So there is a loss of anonymous access -- but no less than with a web browser
[7:54] Dr Scofield: royozu: true...anonymizer?
[7:54] Jarod Godel clap
[7:54] Zero Linden: (well, may be a little less... but not much)
[7:54] Tree Kyomoon: exactly...anonymous schmonymous
[7:55] Ryozu Kojima: Ah, good idea, maybe allow proxy for remote hosted textures
[7:55] Ryozu Kojima: That is, a proxy just for that
[7:55] Zero Linden: 2) It would be easier for the external server to intentionally serve different images to different people - which would make the world look different to different folks
[7:55] Zero Linden: of course - that will be an advantage to some
[7:55] Tree Kyomoon: RIAA would like that
[7:55] Ryozu Kojima: Kind of ruins consistency in my opinion
[7:56] Zero Linden: Exactly - but really, as a external image provider - you'd have to work hard at it....
[7:56] Zha Ewry dislikes things which break the single POV
[7:56] Zero Linden: So do i
[7:56] Tree Kyomoon: it totally ruines the idea of a virtual world
[7:56] Ryozu Kojima: Yeah
[7:56] Zero Linden: But - it would still be possible even if we proxied the requests (and cached them), only it would be harder
[7:56] Ryozu Kojima: I can't say "See that blue dot there?" if they aren't even getting the same data as I am
[7:56] Rex Cronon: maybe the obejects that do it, should give a warning to users, that each might be seeing different things
[7:57] Dr Scofield: no, it ruins the idea of a virtual world as a replica of the RL
[7:57] Zero Linden: Well - I think if you do it intentionally as part of an inworld experience - and frame the experience correctly, it could be used to great benefit
[7:57] Ryozu Kojima: What it ruins is: Shared experiences
[7:57] Dr Scofield: some people do so already in RL
[7:57] Jarod Godel: Zha, this won't break the single POV. It might provide the ability to do it, but someone would have to code an image loader to specifically do that.
[7:57] Tree Kyomoon: yes, look at the blue screen ads in soccer fields
[7:58] Ryozu Kojima: which is a fundamental of Multi user enviroments
[7:58] Zero Linden: The other advantage of having the viewer know the originating server is DMCA: That way if you find your work on a prim
[7:58] Zero Linden: and that prim texture is hosted externally, then LL doesn't need to be in the middle of the DMCA issue: You can go directly to the source, just like any other website you find
[7:58] Jarod Godel clap
[7:58] Tree Kyomoon: excellent point zero
[7:58] Dr Scofield thinks it would even allow for increased privacy in-world: only show certain content to members of the same group
[7:59] Zero Linden: If we proxied the image, then things get weird - "take down" - but we don't host it.....
[7:59] Tree Kyomoon: me good point
[7:59] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[7:59] Zero Linden: ha ha
[7:59] Zero Linden: you should script that so you can have it point at whomever you want
[8:00] Ryozu Kojima: Welcome back Khamon
[8:00] Khamon Fate: Thanks
[8:00] Khamon Fate: I'm only kinda here.
[8:00] Tree Kyomoon: yes, I had originally intended it to bolster my ego
[8:00] Zero Linden notes that he needs a lantern in here
[8:00] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[8:00] Wyn Galbraith loves SL in the dark. "Still waiting for simualted Space."
[8:01] Rex Cronon: not if u press Ctrl+Shift+Y
[8:01] Jarod Godel: wrong lantern
[8:01] Khamon Fate: I leave my night light turned all the way up. I wish we could just override the cycle in our preferences.
[8:01] Ryozu Kojima: Never been orbited Wyn?
[8:01] Ryozu Kojima chuckles.
[8:01] Wyn Galbraith: I've been threatened ;)
[8:01] Tree Kyomoon gave you arrowPointingAtME.
[8:01] Zero Linden: World > Force Sun...
[8:01] Khamon Fate: Oh, question, Zero, is LL implementing some kind of global or simwide weather system, additional to wind, that includes random rain et al?
[8:01] Wyn Galbraith: I don't want to orbit I want to be in.
[8:02] Khamon Fate: yeah I force sunrise a few times a day.
[8:02] Ryozu Kojima: I bet they will at some point Khamon
[8:02] Wyn Galbraith: Oh weather. Good idea.
[8:02] Ryozu Kojima: It was one of Phil's dreams, if I recall
[8:02] Khamon Fate: I just wish we could set it permanently like you can on an estate.
[8:02] Zero Linden: Khamon - no, I don't think weather is currently on the plat
[8:02] Zero Linden: palte
[8:02] Khamon Fate: It's a good idea if it's OPTIONAL to the viewer.
[8:02] Zero Linden: plate (dang!)
[8:02] Ryozu Kojima: Really? Heh
[8:02] Tree Kyomoon: would be cool when you fly up high if the world was spherical rather than a bunch of region borders
[8:03] Wyn Galbraith: I think it would be too costly.
[8:03] Khamon Fate: Thanks, people keep asking me that because I'm a sprite and should know all that nature related stuff.
[8:03] Ryozu Kojima: There used to be a more dynamic cloud and weather system a long long time ago, but got taken out? I may be wrong on that.
[8:03] Zero Linden: Despite perhaps what the "Open Letter" people may think - the very items they are concerned about are in general our top priorities
[8:03] Khamon Fate: You're correct; there were water currents too but they cost WAAY too much
[8:04] Ryozu Kojima: I have an awful memory
[8:04] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[8:04] Wyn Galbraith: Isn't there wind under the water?
[8:04] Tree Kyomoon: of course, the open letter was ridiculous and embarassing IMHO
[8:04] Zero Linden: while things like Sculpted prims may look like we are ignoring stability or scaling and doing features - know that that feature was the work of one engineer
[8:04] Ryozu Kojima: For someone in the know Tree, perhaps, but not everyone is "In the know"
[8:04] Zero Linden: kind of on the side
[8:04] Khamon Fate: Prior Khamon has posted with great alacrity the truth of LLSD and distributed regions to those SC people. But they haven't listended.
[8:04] Rex Cronon: there are still people signing it
[8:04] Ryozu Kojima: Oh really? Which one, so we can go thank him, hehe
[8:05] Zero Linden: And - "all work and no play makes for dull programmers"
[8:05] Wyn Galbraith: Give that guy a raise.
[8:05] Tree Kyomoon: I dont have access to any information that anyone else in SL cant get easily
[8:05] Zero Linden: but really, we are mostly all coding away at the big issues
[8:05] Ryozu Kojima: Depends on your definition of easily Tree
[8:05] Ryozu Kojima: You're above average from what I know of you
[8:06] Ryozu Kojima: Everyone here seems to be
[8:06] Tree Kyomoon: map-->search-->"linden"
[8:06] Ryozu Kojima: You all have a better grasp at what is going on
[8:06] Jarod Godel: Zero, once the new systems go Live, what's next on your plate?
[8:06] Zero Linden: I admit - I was upset when I heard we were spending cycles on new primtive types too -- but then Sculpted Prims is so elegantly simple, and such a big win - I now realize it was worth the effort
[8:06] Zero Linden: "the new systems"? Like the stuff I was talking about last time?
[8:06] Tree Kyomoon: amen to sculpted prims!
[8:06] Zha Ewry thinks scultped prims makes sense as a nice incremental step to more meshes
[8:06] Khamon Fate: What seems different about your team Zero is that y'all work on something until it's done, fun or not.
[8:06] Wyn Galbraith thinks it's brilliant.
[8:07] Jarod Godel: Yes. That and web textures.
[8:07] Zero Linden: Well - that will be shipping in pieces for probably the next year
[8:07] Zero Linden: So - after that? who knows?
[8:07] Jarod Godel: Ah-aha. I keep forgetting it's an incremental thing.
[8:07] Tree Kyomoon: open sourcing the server
[8:07] Wyn Galbraith: Sky's the limit... or not ;)
[8:07] Ryozu Kojima: What I'd like to know about Sculpted Prims is at what point do they take shape in the graphic system... I'd LOVE to be able to point a video stream at a sculpted prim and have it morph smoothly.
[8:08] Zero Linden: We could do it faster if we didn't have to do it incrementally
[8:08] Wyn Galbraith: Incremental is good, gives a chance to ease the bugs out ;)
[8:08] Zero Linden: BUT - that would risk two things: 1) possible serious divergence from the current code base
[8:08] Ryozu Kojima: My question about that subject is, when the server and all this stuff gets released, where does LL see itself in the big picture, just service provider?
[8:08] Khamon Fate: Sculpted prims are "lopsided" spheres aren't they?
[8:08] Zero Linden: and 2) missing the true challenges and needs - our crystal balls are not perfectly sharp
[8:09] Zero Linden: Ah -
[8:09] Wyn Galbraith suggest, "Next Simulated Space." :)
[8:09] Khamon Fate: LL can be several things, they can continue to host SL, they can license grid software, they can provide connecting architecture,
[8:09] Tree Kyomoon: mabey you guys could put a freeze on the current SL build, assign some maintainance dudes to it, and start building a new indpendant one
[8:09] Ryozu Kojima: Less a tech thing and more a policy thing I know
[8:09] Rex Cronon: where can i get more info about the order that pixel values are mapped into what vertices on a sphere?
[8:09] Zero Linden: In the longer run, there will always be the mainland, and the islands we host - and the community we support
[8:10] Zero Linden: Tree - and leave you all behind?!?!? No way!!!!!
[8:10] Zero Linden: Rex - there is a whole FAQ in the external wiki
[8:10] Rex Cronon: that has limited info:(
[8:10] Tree Kyomoon: you could set up an importer so we could bring our stuff over when the new system is all ready to go
[8:10] Zero Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims
[8:11] Rex Cronon: i know, been there
[8:11] Tree Kyomoon: and those who dont like change could stay here
[8:11] Khamon Fate: Oh I'm sorry Ryozu, I thought you meant LL the company, not just SL the grid.
[8:11] Ryozu Kojima: I'm pretty sure Phil's ultimate goal is Web3D, ubiquitous use of SL's base for the world wide web in 3D
[8:11] Ryozu Kojima: I did, in part
[8:11] Zero Linden: see the talk pages for ongoing more detailed description
[8:12] Tree Kyomoon: I wonder if phil will ever hold office hours
[8:12] Tree Kyomoon: that would be cool
[8:12] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[8:12] Wyn Galbraith feels like a kitten who's got something shiney dangled in front of her.
[8:12] Zero Linden: I think a crucial part of what SL is, is a continuous experience
[8:12] Tree Kyomoon: I got an email from him once
[8:12] Zha Ewry: Zero.. can I ask one quick. totally random question?
[8:12] Zero Linden: This is why we don't just license the technology as it sits out now so corporatations can create private little grids
[8:12] Ryozu Kojima: I sat around and talked to Phil on Christmas, with flying green santa hatted pickles in the air.
[8:12] Ryozu Kojima giggles.
[8:13] Zero Linden: We believe that there is MUCH more power to this when everyone is in the same space - even if their islands are private
[8:13] Zha Ewry: Is there a performance reason to limit people to 25 groups? (Because I constantly have to juggle mine)
[8:13] Zero Linden: Zha - yes
[8:13] Zero Linden: group information is currently a PITA to get to the viewer
[8:13] Wyn Galbraith: Someone asked me that the other day.
[8:13] Jarod Godel: Zero, it's nice to hear a Linden acknowledge that both private and public can exist.
[8:14] Zero Linden: This is for no really good reason than the old message system
[8:14] Ryozu Kojima: Zero: What I'd like to see, is the ability for anyone to host not a grid, but a single region on a home machine, and link them to friend regions much like hrefs in html. It may have to be seperate from SL's grid,but I think it could be made to use many of SL's features, if they were modularized.. Making our names an identy to be used on the entire web, for example.
[8:14] Zero Linden: When message liberation ships - it will become much easier for that data to get to the viewer
[8:15] Tree Kyomoon: I agree with Ryozu
[8:15] Wyn Galbraith: As much as I'd like more groups I'm worried that more would become hard to manage unless you could divide them into groups theirselves, like Education, Fun, Business, etc.
[8:15] Ryozu Kojima: The one could travel from the main grid to a friend's region and maintain identity.. Further, if the L$ became it's own independant service, one could use it more like Paypal to pay for things, even when on a seperate grid.
[8:16] Zha Ewry nods "The hard think Ryozu.. is stuff like permissions. Trust between sime an asset sevrers, but it's the right goal"
[8:16] Ryozu Kojima: That's the thing
[8:16] Rex Cronon: each user with their own sims, hosted on their computers:)
[8:16] Ryozu Kojima: I imagine Assets would be grid dependent
[8:16] Zero Linden: As for the future role of SL on the Internet, and LL in that cosmos, believe you me, we are well into deep thinking about that here.
[8:16] Zero Linden: I believe in about a months time I'll be ready to talk more about that here with you
[8:16] Ryozu Kojima: I've been thinking about just how SL could be the next WWW for the last two years.
[8:16] Ryozu Kojima: How you all were going to pull it off, that is ;)
[8:16] Zero Linden: (there - will that keep you coming back?!?!)
[8:17] Ryozu Kojima: Hehe
[8:17] Tree Kyomoon: lol
[8:17] Tree Kyomoon: suspense!
[8:17] Zero Linden: As for groups - when we build the Agent Domain - and then when we move groups to it, we'll be able to relax many of the restrictions on them
[8:17] Ryozu Kojima: I've only recently came to the conclusion that it'll be through modularization and providing services, but not controling the entire thing.
[8:17] Ryozu Kojima: Oooh, hope that's soon
[8:17] Zero Linden: right now - there is just too many problems (all hail the central DB)
[8:17] Zha Ewry grins Super. Zero. Nice to know there are some reasons :-)
[8:17] Wyn Galbraith would keep coming back anyway.
[8:17] Tree Kyomoon: just like CIsco did in the early 90's
[8:18] Jarod Godel hisses at Zero
[8:18] Gotthilf Fischer: Hi everyone.
[8:18] Couch sit 2(male model setup) RED: Gotthilf Fischer, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[8:18] Tree Kyomoon: provide the tools and leave th content to the residnets
[8:18] Rex Cronon: hi
[8:18] Ryozu Kojima: In a way, they do that already,but they also control the tools
[8:18] Tree Kyomoon: hi foxy
[8:18] Ryozu Kojima: The WWW is what it is today because the tools were open and out there
[8:19] Tree Kyomoon: and companies like Macromedia and Adobe came along and made awesome tools
[8:19] Dr Scofield: and everybody can host their own content if they want to
[8:19] Ryozu Kojima: Ultimately, LL should be what Mozilla is to the internet
[8:19] Zha Ewry: Yes.. but there are more interdendencies in the immersive web, because of the state sharing. I can't muck up your assets by playing with them in the WWW. I could in an SL style web
[8:19] Wyn Galbraith: Maybe Adobe would make a plugin for sculpted prims ;)
[8:19] Zero Linden: Ryozu - we understand that - hence we've open sourced the viewer already - and have said that we will do so for the servers one day too
[8:19] Ryozu Kojima: Mozilla, Paypal, Etc, all in one ;)
[8:19] Jarod Godel: Mozilla and Apache.
[8:19] Ryozu Kojima: Heh, indeed
[8:19] Jarod Godel: They're Mozilla now, opening the client.
[8:20] Tree Kyomoon: has adobe shown any interest yet?
[8:20] Dr Scofield: no, not all in one: federated
[8:20] Tree Kyomoon: Ive been hounding the flash lead guy there
[8:20] Jarod Godel: But the 3D web needs an Apache.
[8:20] Zero Linden: In LL? Who knows....
[8:20] Ryozu Kojima: Mozilla: SL Viewer, Apache: SL Server, Paypal: Lindex, Etc.
[8:20] Jarod Godel: Adobe used to have Atmosphere.
[8:20] Dr Scofield: yep
[8:20] Tree Kyomoon: adobe should be partnering with you to build content tools
[8:20] Wyn Galbraith: You'd think they'd be interested.
[8:21] Jarod Godel: Zero, have you seen Valve's new game, Portal?
[8:21] Ryozu Kojima: New game?
[8:21] Zero Linden: We don't really partner that much.... we don't have the time --- They can build all the content tools they want right now!
[8:21] Zero Linden: There is nothing stopping them
[8:21] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[8:21] Ryozu Kojima: They already do =P Photoshop, heh
[8:21] Jarod Godel: Where you fire off A portal and B portal, and jump through?
[8:21] Zero Linden: Jarod - sorry, the only game I play is Go
[8:21] Wyn Galbraith: Maybe we need to bombard them as users with suggestions and requests.
[8:22] Tree Kyomoon: yes, if the users go to Adobe direclty
[8:22] Zero Linden: (and yes, I play it in SL!)
[8:22] Ryozu Kojima: Heh, I should learn Go
[8:22] Tree Kyomoon: is Go a card game?
[8:22] Ryozu Kojima: Board game
[8:22] Ryozu Kojima: Of the ancient variety
[8:22] Gotthilf Fischer: Go is awesome.
[8:22] Jarod Godel: Nevermind. I just realized, I answered my own question. Sit hack.
[8:22] Rex Cronon: is a black and white dots on a grid
[8:23] Tree Kyomoon: like pente?
[8:23] Ryozu Kojima: Same board, differnt goals
[8:23] Zero Linden: Uhm... no, just the most popular board game in the world... but mostly played in Asia: http://senseis.xmp.net/
[8:23] Tree Kyomoon: that would be a good SL game
[8:23] Wyn Galbraith has spent the last week helping to originate a gang of text-based role-players from text-based games she plays.
[8:23] Jarod Godel: Go, aka Othello
[8:23] Zero Linden: no Go != Othello at all
[8:23] Tree Kyomoon: != hehe hehe
[8:23] Ryozu Kojima: Othelo does color flips, Go does captures, I believe
[8:23] Wyn Galbraith: Totally different Jarod.
[8:23] Jarod Godel: REALLY? Yikes. Sorry.
[8:23] Gotthilf Fischer: Go is much more complex, even though you only have black and white stones.
[8:24] Ryozu Kojima: And some other fundamental differences, but I can't play either, so I should shut up ;)
[8:24] Dr Scofield: /wiki Go
[8:24] AVpack: Looking for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/go
[8:24] Zero Linden: Othello - pretty easy, strategy well understood. Go - 4,000 year history, 1,000 years of professionals - lifetime to master - etc.
[8:24] Ryozu Kojima: Heh
[8:24] Zha Ewry used to be serious Go. player. Not at all the same.
[8:24] Jarod Godel: Interesting.
[8:24] Tree Kyomoon: sounds awesome
[8:24] Dr Scofield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28board_game%29
[8:24] Tree Kyomoon: must learn, need to be more nerdy
[8:24] Ryozu Kojima giggles.
[8:24] Rex Cronon: is addictive:)
[8:25] Jarod Godel: Yahoo!Games has a Go section. I learned there how much I suck at Go. :)
[8:25] Wyn Galbraith: Tree, you're as funny as you are boney
[8:25] Zero Linden: http://senseis.xmp.net/?WhatIsGo
[8:25] Ryozu Kojima: http://www.gokgs.com/
[8:25] Ryozu Kojima: Online Go
[8:25] Zero Linden: you can play in world at the Go Center of Second Life
[8:25] Wyn Galbraith: I saw a Go table in SL.
[8:25] Ryozu Kojima: Or here ;)
[8:25] Zero Linden: http://www.flickr.com/photos/92519859@N00/sets/72157600098690999/
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: hey guys, jsut as a cool aside...
[8:26] Zero Linden: but - I appologize about going on about my own personal diversion.....
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: I was at a concert last night where three musicians in three locations were all playing together for a concert in SL
[8:26] Ryozu Kojima: Indeed
[8:26] Ryozu Kojima: Gotta love SL
[8:26] Zero Linden: That's great Tree
[8:26] Gotthilf Fischer: How did they synchronize it?
[8:26] Wyn Galbraith loves SL.
[8:26] Tree Kyomoon: they improvised a piece on the spot and "jammed" with each other , the sound was perfect
[8:27] Ryozu Kojima: Probably through a 4rth "Conductor" type source
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: It was "cypress rosewood" if you know him
[8:27] Wyn Galbraith: My son's band wants to do that. That's why I built the castle, to be a place for their fans to come hear them.
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: anyway just had to mention it, it was stunning use of second life and convergence,
[8:27] Tree Kyomoon: made me realize we are much more than a glorified chat engine :)
[8:27] Ryozu Kojima: A streaming audio with a hearbeat to syncronize with other streams before being routed to a shoutcast I imagine?
[8:28] Gotthilf Fischer: You need to hear your companions playing along, though, that's not working with a heartbeat sync.
[8:28] Ryozu Kojima: I ramble, anyways
[8:28] Ryozu Kojima: I'm also not much of a musician
[8:28] Zero Linden: Yes - those are good examples of stuff that make SL what it is
[8:29] Dr Scofield: you provide the heartbeat aka beat before it's mixed back togehter
[8:29] Zero Linden: well - I think I'm going to try to get Qarl to come talk about sculpty prims for next time..... I'll put it on the calendar and on the wiki if he does
[8:29] Ryozu Kojima: Cool
[8:29] Rex Cronon: would be really, really cool if it was possible to have/play something like Half-life:)
[8:29] Tree Kyomoon: you should call them sculpy
[8:29] Gotthilf Fischer: Sculpted prims look like a very cool thing.
[8:29] Wyn Galbraith jumps up and down, "Yes yes please! Tell him I'm a fan already."
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: sculpy being one of the coolest modelling clays around
[8:30] Ryozu Kojima: Rex: That's almost possible, there are some things on the way to help with that I hear
[8:30] Zero Linden: Okay all - I'm going to head on out.....
[8:30] Ryozu Kojima: Later Zero =)
[8:30] Zero Linden: thank you all for coming
[8:30] Wyn Galbraith: Ah already?
[8:30] Zero Linden: till next week
[8:30] Rex Cronon: bye zero
[8:30] Tree Kyomoon: thanks Zero!
[8:30] Wyn Galbraith: Bye Zero, thanks.
[8:30] Dr Scofield: cu!