User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 May 08

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:01] Wyn Galbraith: Greetings Zero.
[13:01] Khamon Fate controls his urges
[13:01] Tao Takashi: ZOMG, a Linden
[13:01] Jester Thunders: hi Zero
[13:01] Zha Ewry: Zero!
[13:01] Wyn Galbraith: Rebake.
[13:01] Tao Takashi: Hi Zero
[13:01] Zero Linden: WELCOME ALL
[13:01] Khamon Fate: Hi Zero
[13:02] Tao Takashi: ZOMG another Linden
[13:02] Christine Etchegaray: hi Zero
[13:02] Zero Linden: and - welcome Qarl!
[13:02] Jester Thunders: hey Qarl
[13:02] Khamon Fate: Hi Qarl
[13:02] Wyn Galbraith had her first Philip sigthing today.
[13:02] Tao Takashi: disclosure Linden ;-)
[13:02] Qarl Linden: howdy howdy!
[13:02] Zha Ewry: Ah zzero all dreesed in Missing!
[13:02] Tao Takashi: Hi Qarl :)
[13:02] Christine Etchegaray: Hi Qarl
[13:02] Wyn Galbraith: Ah a new Linden a new bear ;)
[13:02] Qarl Linden: ooo - do i want the voice client?
[13:02] Tao Takashi: I discovered your maze, Qarl. great work :-)
[13:02] Qarl Linden: ah thanks.
[13:02] Zero Linden: Ah - and which is here ... don't dump your drinks on him...
[13:02] Wyn Galbraith played with scuplties today.
[13:02] Khamon Fate: Is anybody here going to use voice chat?
[13:03] Christine Etchegaray: no sorry
[13:03] Tao Takashi: but is there actually a way out or is that deadend the normal end?
[13:03] Jester Thunders: nop
[13:03] Khamon Fate: me either
[13:03] Wyn Galbraith has a doll just like Qarl in her studio.
[13:03] Qarl Linden: which deadend did you find?
[13:03] Zero Linden: Well all - welcome to my office hours
[13:03] Tao Takashi: I would use the voice chat
[13:03] Zero Linden: We have a guest today, Qarl -
[13:03] Tao Takashi: Qarl, the one with lots of you ;-)
[13:03] Zero Linden: and so we all know what the topic will be about....
[13:04] Tao Takashi: age verification? ;-)
[13:04] Zha Ewry: Speak up Zero!
[13:04] Zero Linden: Also, I see that Which and Sabin have joined us - so we should have a great discussion
[13:04] Sabin Linden: well, with Which anyway
[13:04] Khamon Fate: Which is a foxy plant eh
[13:04] Wyn Galbraith: Bear Bonaza!
[13:04] Khamon Fate: mmmmm mmmmm
[13:04] Which Linden: Not like we have a ton to say. :-) I'm just window dressing, really.
[13:05] Tao Takashi: Hi Sabin :)
[13:05] Zero Linden: As always - the discussion will be posted to the wiki - so speak freely and speak in public
[13:05] Tao Takashi: Hi Which :)
[13:05] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Qarl.
[13:05] Tao Takashi: interesting avatars :)
[13:05] Qarl Linden: :)
[13:05] Which Linden: Hi
[13:05] Wyn Galbraith: Hello Sbrin and Which.
[13:05] Wyn Galbraith: *Sabrin
[13:05] Jarod Godel: Nice stems.
[13:06] Jester Thunders: hello everyone
[13:06] Which Linden: Thanks!
[13:06] Khamon Fate: stop that
[13:06] Wyn Galbraith: Is that Lucky Bamboo, Which?
[13:06] Khamon Fate: Only Jarod can make a cube squeak.
[13:06] Zero Linden: As always - the goal is discussion -
[13:06] Which Linden: Yeah, it's a copy of the bamboo on my desk.
[13:06] Zero Linden: I think also, perhaps we should put out the wiki page of the sculpties discussion - which has a lot fo F.A.Q>s on it
[13:07] Which Linden: Qarl has been doing an amazing jobanswering every little question on that page
[13:07] Tao Takashi: one question maybe: Will voice and sculpties hit the maingrid together?
[13:07] Wyn Galbraith had fun with them, made a Torley Apple.
[13:07] Zero Linden: start here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims
[13:07] Zero Linden: and follow the links at the very bottom
[13:07] Zero Linden: for deeper discussion
[13:07] Tao Takashi: and I guess that means that there will be no firstlook then for voice as it seemed to be planned earlier
[13:08] Wyn Galbraith: Voice is in the Beta grid.
[13:08] Qarl Linden: it's a bit hard to follow all that text... i'm hoping someone (hint hint) will come through and format it.
[13:08] Tao Takashi: Wyn, I know, that's why I am assuming that plans have maybe changed
[13:08] Wyn Galbraith: Oh.
[13:08] Zero Linden: Let's get started: Qarl - you should know that this is a very technical savvy crowd - so, could you start with an overview of what pathways got enhanced to add in sculpties?
[13:09] Qarl Linden: ok.
[13:09] Qarl Linden: sculpties are a fairly simple mod to our existing volume generation system.
[13:09] Qarl Linden: so - the code that usually generates spheres and tori and whatnot...
[13:10] Qarl Linden: and usually performs its work by calling sin() and cos() -
[13:10] Qarl Linden: instead now does a texture look.
[13:10] Qarl Linden: lookup.
[13:10] Qarl Linden: if that makes sense.
[13:10] Zero Linden: this is all done in the vertex shader?
[13:10] Qarl Linden: ahhh - no. not yet. it's all done on the cpu.
[13:10] Qarl Linden: that way we can cache the work - as it rarely changes.
[13:11] Qarl Linden: for animating sculpt-textures - we'll probably move to a gpu solution.
[13:11] Zero Linden: so - that is a sort of implicit assumption - that it is essentially static..
[13:11] Zero Linden: ah
[13:11] Tao Takashi: well, you hinted at least though that changing sculpties might be a goal :)
[13:11] Zero Linden: how much sim side had to change?
[13:11] Tao Takashi: like the video example
[13:11] Qarl Linden: VERY little. we store the sculpt texture uuid in a "extra-prim-parameter" block.
[13:12] Qarl Linden: that code checks for legal values - so the only sim change is there.
[13:12] Zero Linden cringes at those arbitrary binary blobs in some messaages...
[13:12] Qarl Linden: heh.
[13:12] Qarl Linden: yeah, Cube was upset about that too.
[13:12] Zero Linden: Then on the viewer - fetchnig it is treated just like any other texture, yes?
[13:12] Jester Thunders: may I ask if the client will require more CPU from our computers to display sculpties ?
[13:12] Qarl Linden: yes, exactly.
[13:13] Zero Linden: Great - this means that when externally hosted HTTP textures ships.... sculpties would have that option too
[13:13] Qarl Linden: depends on many factors...
[13:13] Qarl Linden: but they take very little cpu, generally.
[13:13] Jester Thunders: thanks
[13:14] Which Linden: More or less than generating a torus, for example?
[13:14] Wyn Galbraith already puts an ice pack under her laptop.
[13:14] Qarl Linden: well - it's a question of how do we sample that texture... vs. calling sin().
[13:15] Qarl Linden: but that work is done only once per prim... so honestly i didn't bother to profile it.
[13:15] Qarl Linden: volume generation is a small part of our render time.
[13:15] Which Linden: Ah, rad.
[13:16] Zero Linden: the sample is made using boxed sinc() function? (winks)
[13:16] Wyn Galbraith: wb Zha
[13:16] Zha Ewry: TY Wyn
[13:16] Qarl Linden: heh... um... yeah. something like that. :)
[13:17] Wyn Galbraith: How did you make the samples, I heard Maya and Blender.
[13:17] Zero Linden: no, actually, is it? or linear interpolation, or just nearest?
[13:17] Qarl Linden: it's nearest.
[13:17] Wyn Galbraith: It's all an illusion, just have to give the eye enough to trick the brain into seeing more ;)
[13:17] Zero Linden: sigh.... I suppose if it moves to GPU it might be better interpolated - people will need to not rely on the sampling method to achieve various effects...
[13:18] Qarl Linden: it's exact - we have 32 verts and 64 pixels, so...
[13:18] Christophe Priestly: hi
[13:18] Qarl Linden: i think we can do nearest on the gpu too, no?
[13:18] Zero Linden: oh - I thought you downsampled it at lower LOD (level of detail)
[13:18] Qarl Linden: i believe so.
[13:18] Qarl Linden: it falls to 16 verts and 32 pixels... :)
[13:19] Zero Linden: Wyn had a question there about generation
[13:19] Qarl Linden: there are exporters for maya and blender - and someone is working on 3ds max...
[13:19] Qarl Linden: Seifert Surface generates his with python...
[13:19] Jester Thunders: will the exporters be freely available ?
[13:19] Wyn Galbraith: So Blender, being the cheaper, would work just as well as higher priced apps?
[13:19] Qarl Linden: yes yes, they are.
[13:20] Wyn Galbraith: Coolness. :)
[13:20] Christine Etchegaray: will there be one for zbrush ?
[13:20] Qarl Linden: the exporters work just as well - the modeling tools themselves... well - you get what you pay for, i think.
[13:20] Qarl Linden: i'd like to get a zbrush one, yes.
[13:20] Jester Thunders: can we allready get the exporters ?
[13:20] Qarl Linden: yes - check-out that wiki page.
[13:20] Jester Thunders: nice
[13:21] Qarl Linden: the community has been VERY active is developing tools.
[13:21] Tao Takashi: http://amandalevitsky.googlepages.com/sculptedprims
[13:21] Qarl Linden: tutorials/etc.
[13:21] Tao Takashi: that's the one for Blender
[13:21] Wyn Galbraith: I think my son has Maya, he did motion capture for Sega. I'm just looking at what's possible to everyone.
[13:21] Qarl Linden: i believe there are now THREE different external viewers for sculpties.
[13:21] Christine Etchegaray: and when do you plan to have an inworld tool ?
[13:21] Qarl Linden: ah - that's tricky. not sure.
[13:22] Qarl Linden: we WILL have a tool of some kind - sometime soon.
[13:22] Qarl Linden: but it won't be a generalized all purpose tool.
[13:22] Tao Takashi: oh, and what about those huge sculpted prims actually?
[13:22] Qarl Linden: the mega prims?
[13:22] Tao Takashi: yep
[13:22] Simil Miles: work fine
[13:22] Zero Linden: Is it important question - is it important to have an in viewer sculpty previewer (say that 10x fast)
[13:22] Tao Takashi: I know but is this a bug or a feature? ;-)
[13:23] Zero Linden: since the tools for creation are out of world?
[13:23] Tao Takashi: I'd actually like to see megaprims supported on islands or so
[13:23] Zero Linden: Megaprims are really a problem
[13:23] Zero Linden: I don't think we want to support
[13:23] Qarl Linden: heh... i don't think megaprims are generally supported, no.
[13:23] Zero Linden: them ---
[13:23] Tao Takashi: too bad
[13:24] Christine Etchegaray: a previewer will be useful only to spare the upload cost
[13:24] Tao Takashi: at least for setting up atmosphere like a big sphere around a sim they would be great, even though they just are phantom then
[13:24] Qarl Linden: of course - the longer we let them live - the more people will come to rely on them.
[13:24] Qarl Linden: witness the warppos thing.
[13:24] Zero Linden: Tao, realize that they cause big issues with sim to sim communication - and can't work over two 512m
[13:24] Tao Takashi: what sort of issues actually? physics engine or something more?
[13:24] Qarl Linden: as far as previewing goes - the viewer will let you show the texture as a sculptie before you upload.
[13:25] Tao Takashi: and yes, let them live as I just build something with it which wouldn't have been possible otherwise that easy ;-)
[13:25] Christine Etchegaray: ok that's fine then
[13:25] Simil Miles: why not over 512 ? i have several over 512
[13:25] Zero Linden: well - sims have to communicate objects that are near borders
[13:25] Zero Linden: the bigger the prims - the more distance over which the sims have to know
[13:25] Christine Etchegaray: would it be possible to treat only one question at a time ?
[13:25] Qarl Linden: heh.
[13:26] Zero Linden: Christine - welcome to chat office hours....
[13:26] Zero Linden: in voice - we'd be doing just one
[13:26] Zero Linden: but - sure - let's do previewing....
[13:26] Christine Etchegaray: let's finish with the huge prims then ?
[13:26] Jester Thunders: well, don't get me started on voice or age verification :P
[13:26] Zero Linden: okay
[13:27] Zha Ewry: Previewing really paid off wiith the render.
[13:27] Zero Linden: so - not more than 512 because then a prim has to be communicated to a sim more than one sim neighboring
[13:27] Zero Linden: and we have no infrastructure for that - nor do we want to put one it
[13:27] Qarl Linden: sculpted mega prims are as supported as regular mega prims.
[13:27] Zero Linden: that really ups communication costs
[13:27] Zero Linden: read: "supported in so far as mega prims are supported"
[13:27] Qarl Linden: yes.
[13:28] Qarl Linden: which is "not at all"?
[13:28] Qarl Linden: :)
[13:28] Khamon Fate: See this is why we like Zero. He can explain in one sentence why large prims cause adverse effects without droning on about technicalities and vaporous timelines. We Love You Zero.
[13:28] Zero Linden: and - then there the community effects of objects on parcels and how far they can overlapp your neighbors
[13:28] Tao Takashi: I wonder what's different if I build a huge tower with 100 single prims or 1 megaprim
[13:28] Zero Linden: awwwww
[13:28] Zha Ewry: The commo coast
[13:28] Zha Ewry: cost
[13:28] Zha Ewry: te 100 prim tower oesn't make the sim talk 2 sims away
[13:29] Zero Linden: Tao - you could certainly make a case that there are a class of mega prims that don't
[13:29] Zero Linden: cause the problems we can have with mega prims
[13:29] Zero Linden: but that means much the code has to have more complex checks than "not bigger than 10m"
[13:29] Which Linden: Megaprims might be supported if we did some sort of subdivision, but then you might as well just link a buncha smaller prims
[13:29] Wyn Galbraith: So mega prims, or wild prims that are not bigger than a sim and are centered in the sim, those are less likely to cause problems?
[13:29] Tao Takashi: Which, ok but a twisted tube is a bit harder to build from smaller prims ;-)
[13:30] Tao Takashi: at least with my math knowledge ;-)
[13:30] Zero Linden: So yes, possible, but a fair bit of work in code for not a huge benefit (unless you're the one paying the tier bill, of course! :-) )
[13:30] Which Linden: Ha, true
[13:30] Tao Takashi: a tool to scale a single small prim to 100 big prims might be handy ;-)
[13:30] Which Linden: Yeah, that would be mega-rad. (pun intedned)
[13:30] Zero Linden: There is a mythical script that can replicate ANY prim to ANY size (with enough prims....)
[13:30] Qarl Linden: heh.
[13:31] Wyn Galbraith has 20x20x0.50s in her castle centered in the sim.
[13:31] Tao Takashi: and of course I liked the thing which Spin did on his sim, doing a 256x256 sphere on top of it to simulate stars etc. or some other atmosphere
[13:31] Zero Linden: I have been to that mythical island... and seen this mythical beast in action.....
[13:31] Which Linden: The Jackalope?
[13:31] Which Linden: Primalope?
[13:31] Tao Takashi: where is that script? :)
[13:31] Wyn Galbraith: Good one Which.
[13:31] Jarod Godel: as fast as fast can be, you'll never catch me...
[13:32] Zero Linden: I'll have to reneter dream time and see if I can find it...... but don't hold your breath
[13:32] Tao Takashi: for the atmosphere thing a custom sky image might be a solution ;-)
[13:32] Tao Takashi: Zero: I trust in you ;-)
[13:32] Qarl Linden: yeah custom sky boxes are on my list.
[13:32] Khamon Fate: Zero have y'all done any analysis of the load that a 20m or 25m prim limit would cause?
[13:32] Khamon Fate: Is there *any* hope of the size increasing ever?
[13:32] Zero Linden: Khamon - no we haven't
[13:33] Tao Takashi: I'd actually like to chat about that communication stuff another time a bit more in detail :)
[13:33] Zero Linden: I'd love to see the limits explored -
[13:33] Wyn Galbraith would like to sit in on that conversation as well.
[13:33] Zero Linden: Realize also that it isn't CPU time
[13:33] Tao Takashi: and actually I did not make a 256x256 prim there but a 100m tube or so
[13:33] Zero Linden: (at least for most operations)
[13:33] Zero Linden: it is communications cost
[13:33] Zero Linden: A sim with 30k objects is going to be 2x as dense as one with 15k
[13:34] Zero Linden: so for the average AV, they will see 2x the stuff
[13:34] Wyn Galbraith: That's why the mega prims go wild and are hard to see until you bump into one or look at sidewise?
[13:34] Tao Takashi: but with megaprims I'd need less objects ;-)
[13:34] Zero Linden: of course - it is possible to build in such a way where this isn't so....
[13:34] Zero Linden: and possible to build so that it is much worse with only 5k prims....
[13:34] Jester Thunders: guys and girls, I'm sorry I gotta run !
[13:34] Jester Thunders: cheers, c ya !
[13:34] Tao Takashi: take care, Jester!
[13:34] Wyn Galbraith: Bye Jester.
[13:34] Jester Thunders: bye
[13:34] Zero Linden: Thanks for coming, Jester
[13:35] Khamon Fate: Some wikization of best building practices would be most welcome information Zero.
[13:35] Jester Thunders: you're welcome ! c ya soon !
[13:35] Khamon Fate: Bye Jester
[13:35] Tao Takashi: or some statistics tool to profile a sim yourself
[13:35] Zero Linden: Khamon, I think you, the builders would know more about that than we -
[13:35] Zero Linden: the issue is really, what building techniques make for good avatar experience
[13:36] Wyn Galbraith: That's sometimes hard when hit with prim limits.
[13:37] Tao Takashi: well, if I'd do that 256m sphere with normal prims I guess I'd hit the prim limit quite soon.. not that this is my plan ;-)
[13:37] Zero Linden: the 15k limit was calculated from early work on communications cost, and the density expected for a reasonable expereince
[13:37] Khamon Fate: So much of that depends on fellow avatars as well. There's no culture of respecting other people's frame rates in this world.
[13:37] Zero Linden: I have to say, while those calculations from years ago were in many ways a shoot in the dark, they have held up pretty well
[13:37] Tao Takashi: but if skyboxes are somewhere on some list then this should be ok
[13:38] Zero Linden: people do quite well with 15k/region -
[13:38] Wyn Galbraith: I think the sculptured prims will fix a lot of problems creating effects with less prims.
[13:38] Tao Takashi: Wyn, true
[13:38] Khamon Fate claps for sculpties
[13:38] Zero Linden: space isn't too sparse... and only a little annoyingly slow :-)
[13:38] Wyn Galbraith: Which is why I'm so excited.
[13:38] Qarl Linden: have you all been to the beta grid?
[13:38] Tao Takashi: yep
[13:38] Wyn Galbraith: I have.
[13:38] Simil Miles: yes
[13:38] Christine Etchegaray: yes
[13:38] Khamon Fate: I have
[13:38] Zero Linden: Qarl - I know that is crystal ball gazing, but....
[13:38] Qarl Linden: there are a LOT of sculpties in there.
[13:39] Qarl Linden: yes?
[13:39] Khamon Fate: Braddie was uploading 256x256 and 512x512 sculpt textures.
[13:39] Tao Takashi: I just did a quick peek back then but I will have another look and also try out blender again
[13:39] Zero Linden: People have asked here if we think that Scupled Prims will affect how much land people buy.... will they need fewer prims, so buy less?
[13:39] Zero Linden: or will they simply more more cool stuff on their land?
[13:39] Khamon Fate: Y'all were right; there's no difference in the resolution from using a 64x64 one
[13:39] Khamon Fate: More Cool Stuff
[13:39] Khamon Fate chants
[13:39] Tao Takashi: yes, more cool stuff
[13:39] Khamon Fate: Mor Cool Stuff
[13:39] Simil Miles: i think pple will buy smaller parcels
[13:39] Qarl Linden: i think they'll go the more cool stuff route.
[13:40] Tao Takashi: it also depends on what you are building I guess
[13:40] Qarl Linden: heh.
[13:40] Tao Takashi: for a house I supposed the "old" prims will still be the first choice
[13:40] Qarl Linden: our landscapes/rooms/etc are still very "empty" feeling...
[13:40] Tao Takashi: plus that it also depends on how many people will actually use them as it's harder now to create them
[13:40] Khamon Fate: I already have unused tier due to the insane tierage system. It'd make no sense to use less land.
[13:40] Christine Etchegaray: simil, i don't agree, think just pple will put more things on same space
[13:41] Tao Takashi: they will make another floor ;-)
[13:41] Qarl Linden: didn't we change the 15000 number in the last couple years?
[13:41] Qarl Linden: up from 10000 or something?
[13:41] Qarl Linden: or am i wrong?
[13:41] Tao Takashi: no idea..
[13:42] Nounouch Hapmouche: Believe I read something like that in Wiki, yup
[13:42] Zha Ewry: I'd bet more cool stuff. People put insane things like Pianos with Candles on them in thier houses
[13:43] Qarl Linden: i'm poking our devs about the question...
[13:43] Khamon Fate: Yes we had only 10k until version 1.3 or so
[13:43] Zero Linden: Khamon is our old-timer here!
[13:43] Khamon Fate: Jarod is a few days older. He's really really old.
[13:43] Zero Linden: chec out his rez day!
[13:43] Christine Etchegaray: so, my concern is about pple who actually build iw and don't know yet about the 3D programs
[13:43] Qarl Linden: so the question is - what happened when we went from 10 to 15...
[13:44] Zero Linden: wow - Jarod!
[13:44] Khamon Fate: We built more for sure.
[13:44] Nounouch Hapmouche: I believe people won't take smaller parcels, might take better statistic but I see all parcels smaller than a 1/4th sims to be almost full.
[13:45] Simil Miles: u choose a parcel for what u can build with that many prims
[13:45] Zero Linden: I suppose it is possible to consider making a simple, in-world scuptie tool...
[13:45] Nounouch Hapmouche: You select a parcel by your real dollar budget...
[13:45] Zero Linden: ...any open source developers stepping up?
[13:45] Qarl Linden: HEH.
[13:45] Qarl Linden: there are many open source modeling packages to borrow from.
[13:45] Zero Linden: Nounouch - true! you can NEVER have enough land!
[13:45] Zero Linden looks at his personal tier bill and cringes
[13:46] Christine Etchegaray: pple who have motivation can learn must have a little time for that
[13:46] Khamon Fate: Christine I didn't know jack about 3D graphics at all until I started Second Life. It took me a full year to learn Bryce, PSP, LSL and prim building enough to produce a reasonably usable tree. Now I see scuplties as a chance to learn all over again with Blender and um whatever we're gonna call those scuplted textures.
[13:46] Khamon Fate: If nothing else, the challenge of starting over will keep me inworld for a while longer.
[13:47] Nounouch Hapmouche: v2 with partial auto-merge of prisms into sculpted one might fill a gap ;)
[13:47] Wyn Galbraith thinks there will be a crop of apple and bannana houses.
[13:47] Christine Etchegaray: Khamon I agree but you say yourself that it takes time
[13:47] Tao Takashi checks if his sim has arrived ;-)
[13:48] Zha Ewry winces "Apple Houses. Ick"
[13:48] Qarl Linden: Nounouch - yes. that's the plan.
[13:48] Christine Etchegaray: so why not at least a simple tool iw relatively soon ?
[13:48] Wyn Galbraith: Trees will be so cool to do now.
[13:48] Zero Linden: Qarl - can you have a hole in a sculptie?
[13:48] Wyn Galbraith: I think so.
[13:48] Khamon Fate: No negative sculptie spaces.
[13:48] Wyn Galbraith: They were making Apple cars in the beta grid.
[13:48] Qarl Linden: a hole how? with a transparency map, yes.
[13:48] Wyn Galbraith: Ah.
[13:49] Qarl Linden: with real topology - no.
[13:49] Wyn Galbraith: Maybe they just looked like cars.
[13:49] Qarl Linden: not 'til v2.
[13:49] Khamon Fate: Oh with a transparent texture applied yeah.
[13:49] Tao Takashi: I still would like to know if voice and sculpties hit the maingrid at the same time ;-)
[13:49] Zero Linden: Right - so build the visible shell with sculpties, then use a few prims to define the physical space
[13:49] Which Linden: Probably not ,Tao
[13:49] Qarl Linden: Tao - no idea.
[13:49] Qarl Linden: depends on how many bugs remain in each.
[13:49] Tao Takashi: I just was wondering because both are now in the same client
[13:50] Khamon Fate: Maybe voice will be really hard and they'll just give up on it altogether.
[13:50] Zha Ewry: They are.. sort of orthogonal
[13:50] Khamon Fate: Oh, did I type that out loud?
[13:50] Zha Ewry: Yes, Khamon, you did
[13:50] Tao Takashi: and is there still a firstlook planned for voice?
[13:50] Zero Linden: So - we should talk about why we comingled those features
[13:50] Which Linden: There was some mind-bending merging going on to get sculpties and voice in the same viewer
[13:50] Taja Beatty: good afternoon
[13:50] Khamon Fate: First Look was a totally great idea.
[13:50] Wyn Galbraith doesn't care about voice either way.
[13:51] Tao Takashi: I do but I guess I said that already ;-)
[13:51] Khamon Fate: Hi Taja
[13:51] Taja Beatty: hey Khamon
[13:51] Christine Etchegaray: voice and sculpties don't touche same population iw
[13:51] Taja Beatty: what going on?
[13:51] Khamon Fate: Why do you care Tao?
[13:51] Zero Linden: There is a lot of cost in running a beta -
[13:51] Zha Ewry: btw, I see. that SL finally cracked 40,000 this weekend, and again each day since
[13:51] Wyn Galbraith doesn't think anyone needs to hear her and besides she works with sound off 90% of the time.
[13:51] Taja Beatty: hmmm I went to the beta for voice....and crashed right away
[13:51] Tao Takashi: because it adds a different and more intense level to it
[13:51] Zha Ewry can't you sound, 90% of the time she is online
[13:51] Khamon Fate computes deaf as well
[13:52] Zero Linden: So, setting up two was daunting - and scheduling one over the other was going to make at least half the residents upset
[13:52] Tao Takashi: it makes teaching easier, working together with your hands free, live audio events might be so much easier and more spontaneous etc.
[13:52] Zero Linden: so - we comingled 'em
[13:52] Wyn Galbraith: Just better for the surrounding people in RL.
[13:52] Qarl Linden: i have to say - voice is suprisingly fun. i didn't realize how cool it would be until i started using it.
[13:52] Tao Takashi: I am not saying I will use if exclusively as it also has drawbacks but depending on the situation it might be great
[13:52] Zha Ewry: Headset on. so doesn't work in RL meetings, nor at home, 90% of the time
[13:52] Zero Linden: Agreed - it is waaaay better than a conference call - you can't believe how important the spacialized audio is
[13:52] Tao Takashi: and yes, I had also lots of fun in the beta
[13:52] Profesor Congrejo: hi
[13:52] Wyn Galbraith: I've been to There where they have voice. I found the voice annoying in that it was hard to follow and people don't always speak clearly.
[13:52] Tao Takashi: yes, it's far better than Skype or Teamspeak
[13:53] Zero Linden: Which, Donovan, I, and the other Icehouse team members used Skype Conference calls for months
[13:53] Which Linden: I think voice is going to need to get some stringer griefing-prevention tools before it's ready for the wild main grid
[13:53] Zero Linden: then when we got spacialized voice -- it was like night and day
[13:53] Tao Takashi: of course in the german community everybody is now afraid that they don't understand english or do not speak it well enough
[13:53] Khamon Fate claps for Icehouse
[13:53] Zero Linden: I don't think we'd every go back
[13:53] Nounouch Hapmouche: Public voice broadcast are great, as long as you aren't looking into immersion and natively speak the language others do ;)
[13:53] Tao Takashi: but then again we have just overtaken the US in logins and even on the beta grid I heard a lot of german ;-)
[13:53] Zero Linden: we were really sad during the deploy when we had to! it was awful!
[13:53] Which Linden: Think of it as an opportunity for language lessons. :-)
[13:54] Wyn Galbraith: I think we should still hang on to text for clarity and for those who cannot hear for one reason or another.
[13:54] Qarl Linden: heh.
[13:54] Zha Ewry: Chains ou to the client as well.
[13:54] Christine Etchegaray: Tao, if I had voice how, I would not understand a word ;-))
[13:54] Zha Ewry: I can look back in time, on text
[13:54] Wyn Galbraith: Language lessons I could get into.
[13:54] Taja Beatty: well I have my reasons not to use voice
[13:54] Zha Ewry: Can't in speach
[13:54] Christine Etchegaray: *now*
[13:54] Tao Takashi: yes, language teaching might be a very good example actually
[13:54] Khamon Fate: I keep wanting to call you Nonesuch.
[13:54] Wyn Galbraith agrees with Zha. "Got to have both."
[13:55] Wyn Galbraith hmmmm mincemeat pies.
[13:55] Tao Takashi: as said, I don't think it's good in every situation but I really like to have it as an option
[13:55] Khamon Fate: It would work for me to type and talk at the same time so a written transcript was also available.
[13:55] Zero Linden: actually - using voice and text chat at the same time is surprizingly hard for me
[13:55] Nounouch Hapmouche: Speaking takes too much attentions
[13:55] Tao Takashi: Zero: for me,too
[13:55] Wyn Galbraith: I would most like do that too Kham.
[13:55] Khamon Fate: Perhaps I should hang up plant selling and hire myself out as a transcriptionist.
[13:55] Zha Ewry: Me too. I either talk or type. Both at once is really tricky
[13:56] Which Linden: Yeah, a voice transcript would be nice. But of course raises some privacy issues.
[13:56] Tao Takashi: wasn't Joe talking about some transcription service? :)
[13:56] Tao Takashi: for events or so
[13:56] Wyn Galbraith: If you get called afk, which happens to me often, you can't catch up.
[13:56] Simil Miles: there is one for podcasts
[13:56] Wyn Galbraith: Like classes.
[13:56] Tao Takashi: Wyn: sure, there are drawbacks
[13:56] Zha Ewry: Yep.
[13:56] Zha Ewry: Can't pop in and settle the sleeping toddler, and find out what happened those two minutes
[13:57] Tao Takashi: well, if I attend a class in RL I also don't walk away ;-) but voice hinders multitasking a bit, that's true
[13:57] Zha Ewry: (Not that i ever do that)
[13:57] Jarod Godel: I need a better body before I'll ever voice chat.
[13:57] Jarod Godel: One mouth and two ears it just soooooo limiting.
[13:57] Wyn Galbraith: I don't think it should be dropped, voice, it's a good idea for speakers and musicians, teachers, etc.
[13:57] Khamon Fate: Classes would be better served to have broadcasted UI screens that everyone could see
[13:57] Nounouch Hapmouche: Voice will have a niche for some events and some fun and grief stuff. Serious usual stuff will still be written, I believe
[13:57] Khamon Fate: Then we could ouch, Jarod just threw a coffee cup at my head.
[13:57] Khamon Fate: nm
[13:57] Zero Linden: Qarl- I know you have experience working in the film industry - drawing from that what do you think SL needs to enhance it's visual and cinematic (if I may) expereince?
[13:57] Tao Takashi: a class should nevertheless give out some material maybe
[13:57] Wyn Galbraith: I think it will end up a hybrid.
[13:57] Qarl Linden: HEH - that's a good question Zero.
[13:57] Zero Linden: (just to pull this back around to our guest's work...)
[13:58] Tao Takashi: oh, yes, will we get bullet time in SL? :)
[13:58] Taja Beatty: film industry cool
[13:58] Qarl Linden: sculpties are my first step there...
[13:58] Tao Takashi: well, we actually have it in the snapshot dialog
[13:58] Wyn Galbraith cheers.
[13:58] Tao Takashi: the one I never use ;-)
[13:58] Qarl Linden: honestly - we're in desperate need a great artists...
[13:58] Tao Takashi: first I think we'd need better camera controls speaking of film ;-)
[13:59] Qarl Linden: the guys who make CG models for the movies won't give SL the time of day.
[13:59] Tao Takashi: something like the vehicle cam just without the vehicle
[13:59] Jarod Godel: Have you tried looking at DeviantArt?
[13:59] Qarl Linden: i'm on an active campaign to drag them into our world...
[13:59] Jarod Godel: There are plenty of CGI artists there.
[13:59] Wyn Galbraith: I've already talked to my son about this, he's excited too, being Maya trained.
[14:00] Qarl Linden: i've got the guy who designed the monsters for "willow" making us an avatar...
[14:00] Taja Beatty: oh cool
[14:00] Wyn Galbraith: Wow.
[14:00] Tao Takashi: cool :)
[14:00] Which Linden: Us meaning Linden Lab?
[14:00] Wyn Galbraith: That was a great movie.
[14:00] Qarl Linden: yes. :)
[14:00] Which Linden: Whoa
[14:00] Tao Takashi: Willow Linden
[14:01] Qarl Linden: the idea is to show off sculpties and provide a tutorial for importing advanced models.
[14:01] Tao Takashi: long ago since I made my last av, should do one again :)
[14:01] Qarl Linden: but the underlying goal is to have something we can point to and say "LOOK! second life can support professional art."
[14:01] Tree Kyomoon: anyone know of a better modeller than "blender" for making sculpties? Blender bites
[14:01] Jarod Godel: Doesn't Maya have a free version?
[14:01] Tree Kyomoon: its incomprehensible
[14:02] Tao Takashi: well yes, you need get used to Blender
[14:02] Qarl Linden: maya and zbrush are your best bets, i think.
[14:02] Tao Takashi: it's sorta like SL ;-)
[14:02] Which Linden: So this av the willow guy is making is made with sculpties?
[14:02] Christine Etchegaray: zbrush is rather easy to use
[14:02] Zero Linden: I realize that SL is in a different mind set for building things .....
[14:02] Tree Kyomoon: oh no, blender is pretty much the worst human user interface ever devised
[14:02] Qarl Linden: Which - yes.
[14:02] Which Linden: Tell us what you really think, Tree. :-)
[14:02] Tao Takashi: but I think it's logically in itself, just completely different to everything else
[14:02] Zero Linden: ... I met another CG artist at a party recently that wouldn't touch SL because of the tools
[14:03] Jarod Godel: If Poser taught me anything, there's no such thing as a good 3D editor...likewise, there no such thing as a bad one.
[14:03] Zero Linden: ...
[14:03] Christine Etchegaray: zbrush much more than blender
[14:03] Jarod Godel: It's all learning how to move in 3D from the outside in.
[14:03] Wyn Galbraith: Zbrush is expensive.
[14:03] Zero Linden: but I wonder if, even if we add more expressive features, if SL still
[14:03] Zero Linden: will require a different artistic temperment than CG
[14:03] Qarl Linden: Zero - yeah. but if you dig deeper, most times you'll discover they're not judging the tools - they're judging the visuals...
[14:03] Tao Takashi: I guess many people would like to have some import feature, at least those with a 3d background
[14:04] Tao Takashi: but of course there are certain limitations in place to make that happen easily
[14:04] Khamon Fate: Sculpties is a good segue into importable meshes.
[14:04] Zha Ewry: Import would be nice, but, frankly. it is the end result that people care aboout
[14:04] Tree Kyomoon: has anyone gotten any decent results with sculpties? I am finding them to be fairly rough so far
[14:04] Jarod Godel: Qarl, is fair, though, to judge a rendering tool to a real-time rendering tool?
[14:04] Qarl Linden: the belief is "if i don't see any good visuals - the tools must be the cause."
[14:04] Tao Takashi: Khamon: sure but I cannot import my huge spaceship I just designed
[14:04] Zero Linden: Do you think, Qarl, that if we extend the visual expereince, that that will be enough to get them in?
[14:05] Tao Takashi: at least some of my friends would more likely come in with better visuals
[14:05] Qarl Linden: i have NO idea. but it's my best guess for now.
[14:05] Nounouch Hapmouche: You might be missing and lightning too ;)
[14:05] Nounouch Hapmouche: *shadow and
[14:05] Zero Linden: I suppose I imagine that we'll both have great artists come in to SL -- and generate great SL artists from within
[14:05] Tao Takashi: shadows might be a step ;-)
[14:05] Wyn Galbraith: What about the 3D artist that are already in SL.
[14:05] Qarl Linden: Tao - bake your shadows!
[14:05] Khamon Fate: Visual? To me, sculpties add some realism precisely because they *are* a bit fuzzy, rounded, hard to get a lock on unlike the straight edged primage we're used to.
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: well having a simple sculpy modeller in world would obviously be the best
[14:06] Tao Takashi: I bake my shadows but people rarely do that because not all are advanced. of course the problem and opportunity here is that everybody can do stuff and this does not need to be quality work as maybe defined by professional 3d artists
[14:06] Zero Linden: I always wonder about people that won't look at SL because it doesn't met all of what they are used to.... not that I don't want it to be all better and cooler - but I think it will take more from people
[14:06] Zero Linden: they will have to learn to create within this new medium
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: baking shadows is lame...they dont move with the sun!
[14:06] Which Linden: How do you bake shadows?
[14:07] Jarod Godel: How Linden of you, Zero.
[14:07] Tao Takashi: I usually don't know where the sun is anyway ;-)
[14:07] Khamon Fate: I've no empathy for us Zha. SL offers a specific type of environment created using a specific tool set. We've all spent years adapting our ideas to it and now simply have to start over again. I don't mind starting over again.
[14:07] Tao Takashi: Which, with Photoshop for example
[14:07] Wyn Galbraith thinks Zero is right on.
[14:07] Which Linden: Oh, so, basically manually
[14:07] Tao Takashi: or you render it in some 3d program and take some snapshots
[14:07] Which Linden: on the texture
[14:07] Nounouch Hapmouche: Baking textures is about crafting raytracing piece of art, not modelling in a living 3D world...
[14:07] Tao Takashi: Which, yes
[14:07] Which Linden: Oh, cool
[14:07] Jarod Godel: When can we expect an in-world, 2D paintbrush for textures if we're to do it all in this tool?
[14:07] Wyn Galbraith: Life is change. ;)
[14:07] Qarl Linden: Zero - very agreed.
[14:07] Christine Etchegaray: Zero, have you an idea of how many pple create in SL in % ?
[14:07] Zero Linden: Jarod - it is an open mind - I don't think we know what it will take to make great expereinces - we are all working on uncharted land....
[14:08] Which Linden: I think it's important for us to have build tools that are collaborative in nature. Uploading a texture is not very collaborative.
[14:08] Zero Linden: ... we can, and should, learn from what has gone before, but we must be open to the possibilities that unfold
[14:08] Tao Takashi: basically the look of SL is what it is because everybody can do stuff, which is good. it's like all those ugly myspace pages ;-)
[14:08] Zero Linden: (there did that sound like a wise old guy kinda thing to say)
[14:08] Tao Takashi: Ze Frank had a nice piece about that once
[14:08] Qarl Linden: re: baking - i want to soon create a one-button bake/export path from maya into SL... so baking will be much easier.
[14:08] Zha Ewry: Very meta and co
[14:08] Tree Kyomoon: amen to that! myspace is a blight
[14:08] Zero Linden: Christine - 85% of residents create something
[14:08] Christine Etchegaray: that's a lot !
[14:09] Jarod Godel: Which Linden, neither is making a 3D model.
[14:09] Christine Etchegaray: I thought most pple come to "play"
[14:09] Which Linden: Agreed, Jarod
[14:09] Wyn Galbraith: I didn't for a long time, because I was busy exploring. But as soon as one buys land the addiction to build goes from there. I even dream ideas to try in SL.
[14:09] Tree Kyomoon: and some people come to grief us
[14:09] Jarod Godel rubs his forehead
[14:10] Khamon Fate: Collaboration is Compelling Jarod. Get with the program.
[14:10] Tree Kyomoon: I constantly realize dreams in SL
[14:10] Tao Takashi: some shadow baker tool in SL would be nice.. just simulate the lights once and bake it on the texture you selected :)
[14:10] Avatar ejected.
[14:10] Tree Kyomoon: Tao: that is called realtime rendering
[14:10] Khamon Fate: Of effective 3D shadowing would be better than a built-in bake tool.
[14:10] Tao Takashi: not realtime, just a snapshot
[14:11] Qarl Linden: Tao - yes - but then you want to bake photon maps and/or ambient occlusion too...
[14:11] Wyn Galbraith notes that the last blast is why she works with sound off most of the time.
[14:11] Nounouch Hapmouche: We are not crafting to make snapshoots, but to live in
[14:11] Khamon Fate: Baked shadows are cool looking, but just as staic as a texture made without them.
[14:11] Zero Linden: Friends - our hour is up - but we can go a little longer
[14:11] Tao Takashi: well, shadows would be a start ;-)
[14:11] Tree Kyomoon: thanks zero!
[14:11] Jarod Godel: How's Backbone doing?
[14:11] Zero Linden: I do have one crucial question for Qarl:
[14:11] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks again Zero. Which do you have a bear yet?
[14:11] Qarl Linden: yes!
[14:12] Which Linden: Yeah, lemme give it to ya
[14:12] Tao Takashi: I should actually catchup the conversations in the wiki which I missed
[14:12] Khamon Fate: Yes Zero when is Le Tempora de Liberation?
[14:12] Zha Ewry: Bears, Bears!
[14:12] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks!
[14:12] Tree Kyomoon: is it just me or are the lindens "ruthed" for everyone else?
[14:12] Zero Linden: Sculpted Prims -or- Scupties
[14:12] Zero Linden: ?
[14:12] Qarl Linden: Sculpties.
[14:12] Zero Linden: Time of liberation draws near, comrades...
[14:12] Zha Ewry: Ty, Which
[14:12] Wyn Galbraith: Blame Pathfinder. He started me collecting. I resisted for a long time.
[14:12] BamBam Sachertorte: it's just you
[14:12] Simil Miles: If the goal is to bring in 3D professionals, will formats like .obj be supported int eh future ?
[14:12] Qarl Linden: 'cuz they're cutie.
[14:12] Zero Linden: two, three weeks me thingks
[14:12] Khamon Fate claps for Liberation
[14:13] Zha Ewry digs out a flag to wave!
[14:13] Tao Takashi: Liberation?
[14:13] Wyn Galbraith is building Lindenbear shrine ;)
[14:13] Jarod Godel: 3 weeks until .obj imports?
[14:13] Tao Takashi: I should visit more often ;-)
[14:13] Qarl Linden: heh - no liberation.
[14:13] Tree Kyomoon: .obj imports???
[14:13] Tree Kyomoon: wow
[14:13] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Which and thanks Qarl, I already have Zero's.
[14:13] Khamon Fate: Oh Jarod; you're terrible.
[14:13] Zero Linden: Thanks all from coming.
[14:13] Jarod Godel: I mis-read the chat.
[14:13] Jarod Godel: sorry.
[14:13] Tao Takashi: 3 weeks before SL runs in a browser? ;)
[14:13] Zha Ewry: Alway Great Zero
[14:14] Zha Ewry: And thanks for all the time
[14:14] Khamon Fate: Three weeks 'til open source server code?
[14:14] Tao Takashi: thanks Zero and Qarl, that was a good office hour :)
[14:14] Khamon Fate: Yes thanks for hosting us crazy people Zero.
[14:14] Nounouch Hapmouche: Thanks for your time, Lindens, even the vegetal one ;)
[14:14] Which Linden: Welcome!
[14:14] Zha Ewry: And yes, thanks for you time, all the guests
[14:14] Zero Linden: I'm off --- got grids to debug
[14:14] Wyn Galbraith: It's so hot in the east bay I got to go get an icepack for the laptop. This conversation was 'hot'!
[14:14] Christine Etchegaray: thanks to you then and thank for this world I discovered recently !
[14:14] Which Linden: Thanks for being a cool crowd, yo
[14:14] Khamon Fate: And thank you Qarl for attending and answering questions.
[14:14] Wyn Galbraith: Anytime Which.
[14:14] Tao Takashi: Qarl++ :)
[14:15] Tao Takashi: now is there a way out of that maze? ;-)
[14:15] Wyn Galbraith: Yes Qarl, you're the best.
[14:15] Qarl Linden: yeah - ditto Which.
[14:15] Qarl Linden: HEY now. no playing favorites.
[14:15] Zha Ewry: bear Quarl?
[14:15] Wyn Galbraith: And Sabin!
[14:15] Khamon Fate: Thank You too Which for gracing us with your lovely foliage.
[14:15] Wyn Galbraith: Does Sabin have a bear ;)
[14:15] Khamon Fate: Does Sabin ever resolve?
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