User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 May 22

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours, as hosted by Which Linden:

[13:03] Which Linden: All right, the gang's all here!
[13:04] Which Linden: As always, I am recording this for posterity.
[13:04] Tao Takashi: ah, no private office hour for me then
[13:04] Which Linden: Hi mom!
[13:04] Which Linden: Ha ha
[13:04] Wyn Galbraith: We're missing Zha. I had to choose between Which and making a cookie jar.
[13:05] Which Linden: Was there any indication that I'd be hosting it today? I took this slot at the last minute
[13:05] Which Linden: I'm gonna get gridmonkey this Thursday, not a great time for office hours
[13:06] Wyn Galbraith: No... I just figured it would be you ;)
[13:06] Tao Takashi: I just come here at these times regardless of who is hosting ;-)
[13:06] Dnate Mars: nice head Tao
[13:06] Tao Takashi: thanks :)
[13:06] Which Linden: I don't have any topic for today, is there anything you all want to suggest?
[13:06] Wyn Galbraith: I think I usually miss this hour due to classes.
[13:07] Hiro Market: I'm real impressed by the atmosphrics on the blog
[13:07] Tao Takashi: yes, when is the new sky coming? .-)
[13:07] Dnate Mars: Are we all doomed with voice coming tomorrow?
[13:07] Which Linden: Hey Zha
[13:07] Tao Takashi: and will it be on Linux too (directly)?
[13:07] Zha Ewry: Hello Which
[13:07] Wyn Galbraith waves at Zha.
[13:07] Which Linden: Voice isn't coming tomorrow
[13:07] Tao Takashi: but Havok 10?
[13:07] Tao Takashi: Havok 1 is a high prio fix, right? ;-)
[13:08] Tao Takashi: at least for residents ;-)
[13:08] Dnate Mars: oh? 1.16 doesn't have voice?
[13:08] Tao Takashi: it only says bugfixed on the blog, doesn't it?
[13:08] Which Linden: It's only bugfixes tomorrow
[13:08] Tao Takashi: ah, right, 1.16
[13:08] Which Linden: I guess voice was pushed off to 1.17 or something
[13:08] Tao Takashi: I guessed that it will get unbundled again
[13:09] Dnate Mars: wel, the blog has never been very clear...
[13:09] Zha Ewry: Interesting Ave, Tao
[13:09] Which Linden: As for windlight (i.e. hawt skies), I guess they're planning to have a First Look for that Real Soon Now (tm)
[13:09] Tao Takashi: also no sculpties tomorrow?
[13:09] Zha Ewry grins "Software writers favorite timeline"
[13:10] Tao Takashi: looking forward to the sky :-)
[13:10] Hiro Market: is that just the sky, or fogging on landscape too?
[13:10] Which Linden: I think we will get sculpties tomorrow, based on Josh's description
[13:10] Which Linden: Hiro: it is on the landscape as well
[13:10] Hiro Market: :-), proper light decay then
[13:11] Which Linden: The windwardmark team was created out of frustration for existing fog implementations
[13:11] Khamon Fate: Hi Whichtennae
[13:11] Khamon Fate: Which
[13:11] Which Linden: I think. I should invite one of them to give office hours once they are not completely crazy with work
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith would love lots of fog.
[13:11] Khamon Fate: Sorry, Taotennae
[13:12] Which Linden: Welcome Khamon
[13:12] Which Linden: A while back Tao asked about Havok 1 fixes, do you mean Havok upgrade?
[13:13] Tao Takashi: well, I was mostly joking ;-) but don't we all wait for an update?
[13:13] Which Linden: Of course, the future is always super-awesome
[13:14] Khamon Fate: I don't. I gave up on a physics engine update years ago.
[13:14] Tao Takashi: in every joke there is a serious core ;-)
[13:14] Tao Takashi: they need to do it oneday as otherwise there will be competition ;-)
[13:15] Which Linden: It is very hard, especially, as I understand, replicating the behavior of Havok 1 in some ways
[13:15] Which Linden: I believe that a heterogeneous grid will be a prerequisite for the havok upgrade
[13:16] Tao Takashi: btw, I am streaming this live now to ustream again
[13:16] Zha Ewry blinks "Because of testing needs?"
[13:16] Tao Takashi: hope you don't mind
[13:16] Which Linden: (for those of you following along at home, that was the topic of Thursday's office hours)
[13:16] Which Linden: No trouble, Tao
[13:16] Which Linden: Is there a url for that? I want to get self-referential
[13:16] Tao Takashi: might even not work at all ;-)
[13:16] Tao Takashi: and we are not on the homepage anymore unfortunately
[13:16] Tao Takashi:
[13:17] Which Linden: OK, so what else to discuss?
[13:17] Zha Ewry: What finally changed that got you past 38-39K this week?
[13:18] Which Linden: I have no idea
[13:18] Which Linden: I imagine that the group chat changes helped a lot
[13:18] Tao Takashi: one question I had was the actual setup of a server. We discussed something like that with Ian Linden last week but I'd like to know what exactly the dataserver is doing etc.
[13:18] Tao Takashi: as this was supposed to be the bottleneck
[13:18] Zha Ewry: Quite a jump on concurrnecy.. from uper 30s to low (almost mid) 40s abruptly
[13:19] Which Linden: Well, the userserver was the bottleneck removed by the group chat changes that everyone hated (and which will hopefully be fixed tomorrow)
[13:19] Hiro Market: big publicity drive somewhere?
[13:19] Which Linden: Yeah, the concurrency jump was so fast that I suspect it was partially due to outside influences.
[13:19] Tao Takashi: people finally heard that I am in SL ;-)
[13:20] Hiro Market: i see that over half residents are supposed to be europeans now too :-)
[13:20] Hiro Market: maybe time to think about downtime schedules?
[13:20] Tao Takashi: for me those downtimes are ok as it's during work times
[13:20] Tao Takashi: usually at least
[13:20] Zha Ewry: I don't know. Until this past week, 38K, 39K was pretty much where it broke to the point that people started logging off. Sunday, we cracked 44K, and I could still rez, tp and see people on my friend's list
[13:20] Tao Takashi: yes, I work long ;-)
[13:21] Tao Takashi: but I proposed to put the downtimes to monday so there's more time to fix the new bugs ;-)
[13:21] Which Linden: Ha ha, yeah
[13:21] Tao Takashi: and we don't need to do that on fridays
[13:21] Tao Takashi: well, not "we" ;-)
[13:21] Tao Takashi: YOU! ;-)
[13:21] Which Linden: Ah! My heart!
[13:21] Which Linden: :-)
[13:21] Tao Takashi: oh, where is your heart?
[13:22] Which Linden: San Francisco
[13:22] Zha Ewry winces
[13:22] Which Linden: So, you asked about the structure of a sim host
[13:22] Tao Takashi: yes
[13:22] Ice Brodie: kitsu, hi o.o
[13:22] Tao Takashi: if it's not top secret ;-)
[13:22] Tao Takashi: Hey ice
[13:22] Which Linden: The dataserver is a complicated beast.
[13:22] Which Linden: hi ice
[13:22] Zha Ewry: you can see a lot in the wiki
[13:22] Zha Ewry: Zero wnet through most of it, except for the dataserver, about a month back
[13:23] Tao Takashi: I tried to search for it but couldn't really find the details
[13:23] Tao Takashi: but maybe I did not look deep enough ;-)
[13:23] Ice Brodie: one of these days I need to do a brain dump on my website.
[13:23] Tao Takashi: but the dataserver is a central thing, right?
[13:23] Which Linden: There are three dataservers per sim host
[13:23] Which Linden: So, not central
[13:23] Tao Takashi: ah, a local thing
[13:23] Tao Takashi: ok, let me draw :)
[13:23] Ice Brodie: mostly proxies, isn't it?
[13:24] Which Linden: Their main purpose, as far as I can tell, was to make database requests be asynchronous
[13:24] Zha Ewry: 3? Does that match the three asset server sets?
[13:24] Which Linden: Yeah, basically a proxy for teh database
[13:24] Ice Brodie: mn, twitch chairs...
[13:24] Which Linden: Two are for "regular" data requests and one is for inventory
[13:24] Which Linden: There used to be one per sim host but that caused performance problems.
[13:25] Zha Ewry blinks. 4 sims, 3 dataservers, one dedictaed to inventory. My. Complex.
[13:25] Which Linden: You betcha
[13:25] Tao Takashi: ok, so blue is the database, white is a sim host and 3 dataservers
[13:25] Ice Brodie: given that you can have asset issues if you don't use proxies like this, it's gotta be... I remember stuff like whole months where the dataserver just croaked.
[13:25] Which Linden: When the sim requests a query from the dataserver, the dataserver sticks it on a queue and performs all queries in order
[13:25] Ice Brodie: every friday and saturday... wasn't fun.
[13:26] Which Linden: The sequential ordering is an interesting issues
[13:26] Which Linden: On the one hand, it means that the central database has less load
[13:26] Zha Ewry: so, they handle all the queries to the database(s)
[13:27] Tao Takashi: does it have less load if it's not cached?
[13:27] Ice Brodie: ugh, note to self, replace the error handlers on my heightmappers with an e-mail based system.
[13:27] Which Linden: All queries that the sim might want to do, yes
[13:27] Which Linden: And it does caching of queries
[13:27] Ice Brodie: I'm getting 499 messages every minute from one of my drones.
[13:27] Which Linden: Kelly did a lot of dataserver caching work
[13:27] Ice Brodie: Kelly's a good guy.
[13:27] Ice Brodie: I remember him when he was in QA :P I need to haunt his office hours some day :P
[13:27] Which Linden: "a true gentleman"
[13:28] Ice Brodie: is that why he wore a female AV for a year? :0
[13:28] Which Linden: The downside of the queuing is that if the queue gets too long, then new queries start to starve
[13:28] Which Linden: Or rather, they just time out.
[13:28] Tao Takashi: ah, ic
[13:28] Tao Takashi: so where in the diagram is the caching happening?
[13:29] Which Linden: Which diagram?
[13:29] Tao Takashi: I guess inventory and the other 2 are mostly the same except semantically?
[13:29] Tao Takashi: on the rug
[13:29] Nounouch Hapmouche: On the sim host, in the dataservers process
[13:29] Which Linden: Oh, whoa, didn't see that
[13:29] Wyn Galbraith: Only in SL.
[13:29] Which Linden: So yeah, they only differ semantically
[13:30] Which Linden: And the caching happens in the dataserver itself
[13:30] Tao Takashi: ok
[13:30] Nounouch Hapmouche: So "all" the dataservers do is caching and serializing ?
[13:30] Which Linden: No, it does more
[13:30] Which Linden: (sigh)
[13:30] Which Linden: But I'm not very up on what else it does
[13:30] Ice Brodie: caching can do a lot for performance.
[13:30] Couch sit 2(male model setup) RED: Tonks Mann, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[13:30] Nounouch Hapmouche: Voodoo !!!
[13:31] Which Linden: If done correctly, caching is awesome
[13:31] Which Linden: I mean, a lot of queries really don't change very much
[13:31] Ice Brodie: Which, who would be best to chat with about the LSL affects of the new sky system we're getting? o.O I wanna know how to gather data for it...
[13:31] Tao Takashi: ok, but now those are the bottlenecks because of their sequential working?
[13:32] Tao Takashi: I am now only missing the part in how LLSD might help with it and to get 1000 avatars on a sim ;-)
[13:32] Which Linden: Ice, I don't know who would know, I'
[13:32] Which Linden: ll find out
[13:32] Ice Brodie: thanks, I need to know if the llCloud interface will be replaced, I've started coding for that one...
[13:33] Which Linden: The bottleneck is basically the central database, I think
[13:34] Which Linden: Oh, you mean message liberation and llsd messaging
[13:34] Tao Takashi: yes
[13:34] Which Linden: Well, initially, there won't be much change
[13:34] Tao Takashi: not that I completely groked it ;-)
[13:34] Tao Takashi: except that the messages will look more XMLy
[13:35] Object: Hello, Avatar!
[13:35] Which Linden: Basically we'll start sending messages over http. (the xml format is actually mostly incidental)
[13:35] Zha Ewry: And lose the binary format
[13:36] Nounouch Hapmouche: Cost is encapsulation, decapsulation, ROI is simplicity of expansion ?
[13:36] Zha Ewry: And dynamic update
[13:36] Which Linden: Don't know what that means, Nounouch, but tcp is a much better protocol for sending reliable messages than our udp message system
[13:36] Nounouch Hapmouche: Nothing performance-wise then
[13:37] Zha Ewry: With the flexablity, can update message formats without redeplying everything at once
[13:37] Which Linden: Updating messages without redeploying is the major goal
[13:37] Nounouch Hapmouche: Cost in performance, gain in developper time, mostly
[13:37] Tao Takashi: so we can get Havok 10, I've learned :-)
[13:37] Which Linden: We expect that using tcp instead of "reliable udp" will improve performance, though not immediately.
[13:37] Ice Brodie: I've taken to HTTP myself, it's a great protocol compared with userland ones like e-mail.
[13:37] Wyn Galbraith: Nice Tao.
[13:38] Zha Ewry: Zero implied, pretty flat in terms of the performance. Longer paths, fewer dropped packets.
[13:38] Ice Brodie: old userland, I should say.
[13:38] Tao Takashi: in the next office hour I will then code the packet streams into that model ;-)
[13:38] Tao Takashi: define userland?
[13:38] Wyn Galbraith would love a copy.
[13:38] Tao Takashi: maybe it will take more than 1 office hours though ;-)
[13:38] Which Linden: I love the model, BTW
[13:38] Tao Takashi: but I can give you a copy of this
[13:39] Ice Brodie: I need to build models like that, Tao, I've already got a set of gylphs like that for ibMapper...
[13:39] Which Linden: I'd love a copy
[13:39] Ice Brodie hunts for the latest model diagram.
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith: I can wait till it's complete ;)
[13:39] Tao Takashi: It's for everybody to copy now
[13:39] Tao Takashi: don't hold your breath ;-)
[13:39] Which Linden: What's the sphere?
[13:40] Wyn Galbraith smiles and won't.
[13:40] Tao Takashi: the sphere is not part of my model
[13:40] Tao Takashi: I guess it's a GOD called Linden Lab ;-)
[13:40] Which Linden: We look like the Death Star?
[13:40] Nounouch Hapmouche: It's an heightmapper robot ;)
[13:40] Ice Brodie: pfft :P
[13:40] Ice Brodie: that's one of my heightmappers.
[13:41] Ice Brodie: and it's spewing errors, I really wish I wasn't sharing webspace with the LSL wiki right now x.x
[13:41] Which Linden: Ice, I got an answer on windlight lsl calls
[13:41] Zha Ewry: High mapper?
[13:41] Ice Brodie: height....
[13:41] Tao Takashi needs to get a coffee
[13:41] Nounouch Hapmouche: Recording terrain height most likely
[13:41] Which Linden: There are currently no plans to integrate lsl with windlight, but we'd like to, eventually
[13:41] Tao Takashi: does the ustream work for you, btw?
[13:42] Tao Takashi: will it change wind?
[13:42] Which Linden: Oh, uh, no
[13:42] Ice Brodie: it also maps parcel data right now, it will eventually do weather as well, assuming llWind, llCloud don't get flushed completely x.x
[13:42] Which Linden: The ustream is just sitting there, I might need to upgrade my java
[13:42] Hiro Market: assuming this is a full scale atmospheric model, what do you plan to *do* with it?
[13:42] Tao Takashi: I guess there is some industry based on wind
[13:42] Tao Takashi: maybe it's simply a ustream problem
[13:42] Hiro Market: after all, should handle ;lots of different atmospheric effects
[13:42] Which Linden: I believe the long-term plan is to give greater atmospheric control to Residents
[13:42] Hiro Market: so would they be accessible to sim owners say?
[13:43] Wyn Galbraith: Oh boy, fog and rain and...
[13:43] Which Linden: Yeah, that's teh first step
[13:43] Ice Brodie: will they be removing the current calls for llWind and llCloud?
[13:43] Ice Brodie: I hope they update them, and add to them ;.;
[13:43] Which Linden: Just like you can control sun position and terrain textures now, I htink
[13:43] Ice Brodie: I want more weather input.
[13:43] Which Linden: Me too. :-)
[13:43] Ice Brodie: input into my tools, I mean x.x
[13:43] Zha Ewry wants more stable wind for sailing ;-)(
[13:43] Tao Takashi: I want a sensor outside my door checking the weather and mapping it to my SL weather ;-)
[13:44] Which Linden: I don't think we'll change llwind or llcloud for a while yet
[13:44] Tao Takashi: you want more stable Havok ;-)
[13:44] Nounouch Hapmouche: What other novelties can we expect in First Look, then ?
[13:44] Wyn Galbraith wants wind for dual-line sport kiting.
[13:44] Ice Brodie: Tao, that'd be very cool... I want to have the ability to show weather.
[13:44] Hiro Market: other feature of landscape renders is fractal terrain and textures, any thought been given in that direction?
[13:44] Ice Brodie: SLweather :P
[13:44] Which Linden: Hiro: not that I'm aware of.
[13:44] Ice Brodie: a fractal seed takes a lot to calculate x.x
[13:44] Hiro Market: do it on the client
[13:45] Ice Brodie: I don't think my client has that much power and I have a P4
[13:45] Hiro Market: there's some highly optimised turbulance functions around now
[13:45] Which Linden: The server would have to know about the teerrain shape
[13:45] Wyn Galbraith: Snow storms in SL.
[13:46] Which Linden: Did we finish with the sim host model?
[13:46] Tao Takashi: i think so
[13:46] Tao Takashi: I might get it out my pocket again when I have additional questions :)
[13:46] Which Linden: Ha ha, awesome
[13:46] Tao Takashi: e.g. in how the dataservers will limit the 1000 avatar limit ;-)
[13:46] Tao Takashi: so bring Ian again next time ;-)
[13:47] Which Linden: Hah
[13:47] Ice Brodie: blah, I am still behind on my work x.x
[13:47] Khamon Fate: blah, I am still behind on my coffee
[13:47] Tao Takashi: see, then 4000 people could attend a townhall!
[13:47] Which Linden: I think the grid-wide concurrency is a larger issue for us ATM, it superseded per-sim concurrency
[13:47] Tao Takashi: 4000 griefers ;-)
[13:48] Khamon Fate: What's the difference between 4k people attending a town hall and 4k people reading the transcript or listening to the broadcast?
[13:48] Tao Takashi: and where is the bottleneck on the grid-wise concurrency?
[13:48] Tao Takashi: they have the feeling they are part of it
[13:48] Zha Ewry nods "Won't last, tho,Which. As concurrency goes up.. the number of people being annoyned by not being able to get into a sim.. will increase"
[13:48] Khamon Fate: oh
[13:48] Tao Takashi: it's psychological
[13:48] Which Linden: I am not sure where the grid-wise bottleneck is now, Doug is investigating that this week
[13:48] Ice Brodie: the lag of a town hall should be experienced.
[13:48] Tao Takashi: see, they didn't need the open letter
[13:48] Zha Ewry likes to walk in concrete :-)
[13:48] Tao Takashi: we all knew what happens because we attend office hours
[13:49] Tao Takashi: go, Doug, go! :-)
[13:49] Ice Brodie: please don't spam me Hornet...
[13:49] Which Linden: 4k people on a sim use a lot more resources than just getting the text stream from im, and multicasting audio has a lot of technology supporting it
[13:49] Khamon Fate: I tried to reference the SC crew to Zero's transcripts and LLSD but to no avail
[13:50] Tao Takashi: I also thought that a podcat of Philip or Cory here and there might do it but I am not that sure anymore
[13:50] Tao Takashi: people really want to attend it although not much new information is spread there
[13:50] Khamon Fate: People want the software to work. They want the service they're paying for. They're becoming very insistant.
[13:50] Tao Takashi: it's also great for meeting people ;-)
[13:50] Tao Takashi: even at sim borders around
[13:51] Zha Ewry nods "I think that, 200 would be progress at the moemnt. And some of the costs are not linear, alas"
[13:51] Tao Takashi: well, 1000 avatars on one sim would not work anyway
[13:51] Tao Takashi: would not make any sense that is
[13:51] Tao Takashi: less lag for 100 avatars might be good though
[13:51] Khamon Fate: floating room only
[13:51] Ice Brodie: the demand of those 3 local dataserver caches would be choking.
[13:51] Zha Ewry: Not so mch per sim as per small area
[13:52] Tao Takashi: Hi Donovan
[13:52] Zha Ewry: People have this nasty habit of wanting to be in the same place.
[13:52] Which Linden: The sim itself would probably be struggling at 100
[13:52] Tao Takashi: because of which component?
[13:52] Which Linden: It does a lot of housekeeping for each av
[13:53] Tao Takashi: so computing
[13:53] Which Linden: Basically
[13:53] Khamon Fate: Yeah this tech just isn't ever gonna support that kind of crowd. Something else will have to come along.
[13:53] Tao Takashi: Kaneva? ;-)
[13:53] Zha Ewry: When you split domains, how muich headroom do you get?
[13:53] Khamon Fate: Having that many avs on the grid LL's vision of "being there."
[13:53] Which Linden: ...split domains?
[13:53] Hiro Market: oh, Haneva is grim
[13:53] Hiro Market: Kaneva even
[13:53] Zha Ewry: Agent domain off the sim
[13:54] Zha Ewry: Zero went through that last month
[13:54] Zha Ewry: So.. the sim focuses on land/physics and the agent housekeeping becomes seperated out
[13:54] Tao Takashi: and don't say, that a sim will be struggling at 100, I already blogged about soon having 1000 avatars per sim ;-)
[13:54] Donovan Linden: it's unknown how much headroom we'll get until we actually do it
[13:55] Ice Brodie: of all the... blah, work just cropped up x.x
[13:55] Khamon Fate: Then you could put the sim in a broadcast prefered mode that wouldn't accept updates so much as send data to connected avs
[13:55] Which Linden: Yeah, software is pretty unpredictable. :-(
[13:55] Tao Takashi: well, I put some precautions in the text
[13:55] Khamon Fate: People, on the other hand, are highly predictable. They'll put up with loads of crap and then some.
[13:55] Ice Brodie: I gotta go, I'll be back later.
[13:55] Tao Takashi: take care, Ice
[13:55] Khamon Fate: bye ice
[13:56] Which Linden: Thanks for coming, ice
[13:56] Tao Takashi: everyboy interested took a copy of the diagram?
[13:56] Which Linden: The average per-sim concurrency is about 4
[13:56] Which Linden: right now
[13:56] Zha Ewry: but very spiky, yes?
[13:57] Which Linden: Yeah, very variable
[13:57] Zha Ewry: I mean, Phatcasts island, is probably rarely under 20.
[13:57] Zha Ewry: And some sims rarely see 2
[13:57] Which Linden: I'm sure if sims could host more avs that it would vary even more. :-)
[13:58] Khamon Fate: What does average per-sim concurrency mean Which? What does LL gather from that stat?
[13:58] Khamon Fate: Or what other stats are used with it to determine the state of the grid et cetera
[13:59] Which Linden: Just dividng concurrncy buy #regions
[13:59] Which Linden: by
[13:59] Which Linden: I'm not really sure what stats we have, obviously concurrnecy is one
[14:00] Which Linden: Basically what's on, but in more detail
[14:00] Tao Takashi: coffees per hour is another one, I am sure
[14:00] Which Linden: Zero's number of coffees per hours would be through the roof
[14:00] Tonks Mann: LOL
[14:00] Tao Takashi: heh
[14:01] Wyn Galbraith: Ah that's what's wrong with me today... no coffee yet.
[14:01] Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting Which.
[14:01] Which Linden: Well, it is 2 pm PDT
[14:01] Zha Ewry speaking of Zero. Have you heard from him? How's life with a sproglet?
[14:01] Wyn Galbraith: Great meeting Which. Do you need watering ;)
[14:01] Nounouch Hapmouche: Any pointer on the Linden being in charge of the translation and doing office hours ?
[14:01] Khamon Fate: Did they name the baby Negative One?
[14:01] Which Linden: I haven't heard from him, I'll tell him that you're thinking of him next time I "see" him though
[14:01] Which Linden: Heh
[14:02] Tonks Mann: :D
[14:02] Zha Ewry: Thnkas
[14:02] Khamon Fate: Minus One, that's pretty
[14:02] Which Linden: Yeah, thanks all for being cool, this was a great discussion
[14:02] Dragonfan Hooper: i didn't know this one was going on here
[14:02] Zha Ewry: This is the cool group, Which
[14:02] Zha Ewry: Low key
[14:02] Khamon Fate: People would pronouce Minusone as min-U-sone
[14:02] Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
[14:02] Which Linden: I'll post the transcript shortly.