User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Sep 18

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:04] Saijanai Dagger: is that different form Havok FX (not GX)?
[13:04] Kooky Jetaime: meant to work expressly with havok
[13:04] SignpostMarv Martin: with Intel's resources and expertise, there's no reason they couldn't produce a hardware accelerated PPU
[13:04] Dizzy Banjo: welcome to marioland zero
[13:04] Kooky Jetaime: Zero
[13:04] Squirrel Wood: Hi Zero ^^
[13:04] SignpostMarv Martin: and leading on from that suggestion.....
[13:04] Kooky Jetaime: friend buddy ol pal
[13:05] Kooky Jetaime: Would you
[13:05] Zero Linden: oh?
[13:05] Kooky Jetaime: Could you
[13:05] Zero Linden: mario?
[13:05] Zha Ewry: Hello Zero
[13:05] Kooky Jetaime: STOP THE MADNESS!!!!
[13:05] Dizzy Banjo: Deus Straaf is your man Zero
[13:05] SignpostMarv Martin: Class 6 sims with hardware accelerated physics anyone ?
[13:05] Squirrel Wood: Deus Straaf
[13:05] Zero Linden: ah
[13:05] Rex Cronon: hi zero
[13:05] Squirrel Wood: begging for punishment
[13:05] Dizzy Banjo: phew
[13:05] Saijanai Dagger just wants a simple hierarchy class so he doesn't have to rolll his own
[13:05] SignpostMarv Martin: or rather,
[13:05] Seqkat Kayo: There're marios everywhere.
[13:05] Kooky Jetaime: well
[13:05] Zha Ewry: today's partical greifer
[13:05] Tao Takashi: Hey Zero
[13:05] SignpostMarv Martin: "Class 6 sims with *optional* hardware acceleration"
[13:05] Seqkat Kayo: What's the plural of mario, anyway? Marios?
[13:05] Tao Takashi: these your marios? :)
[13:05] Cyph Clary: hey zero
[13:05] Kooky Jetaime: AMD would have to aquire PhysX to do the same
[13:05] Seqkat Kayo: Marii?
[13:05] Cyph Clary: nice tux :)
[13:05] Zero Linden: there
[13:06] Zha Ewry: My.
[13:06] Zero Linden: should be gone by now
[13:06] Zha Ewry: That was quick
[13:06] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[13:06] Tao Takashi: Zero is a pro :-)
[13:06] Zero Linden: well - just had to return the generator
[13:06] SignpostMarv Martin: someone ran Paper Mario through the photocopier
[13:06] Kooky Jetaime: Zero- before we get started.. What happened saturday night that basically checkerboarded the grid?
[13:06] Tao Takashi: I guess it tool a lot of time to create all those Marios
[13:06] Dizzy Banjo gave you Deus Straaf.
[13:06] Dizzy Banjo: thats a pic of the guy zero
[13:06] Zero Linden: yup - got his name from the object
[13:07] Zero Linden: thanks
[13:07] Zero Linden: well all
[13:07] Zero Linden: welcome
[13:07] Zero Linden: it has been a really really really busy two weeks
[13:07] Zero Linden: and
[13:07] SignpostMarv Martin: Zero: you've read about Intel buying Havok right ?
[13:07] Zero Linden: I must appologize in advance, I'll need to end 15 min. early today
[13:07] Zero Linden: SMM - no I haven't
[13:07] SignpostMarv Martin: ah, well they did :-P
[13:07] SignpostMarv Martin: hypothetically speaking,
[13:07] Saijanai Dagger goes oh, THAT is why Havok was topic
[13:07] Tao Takashi: Linden Lab should have ;-)
[13:07] SignpostMarv Martin: if Intel started making a Havok PPU,
[13:07] Tao Takashi: and made it open source :)
[13:08] SignpostMarv Martin: would Linden Lab use them in the servers ?
[13:08] Zero Linden: Then LL would only have 4k machines to upgrade!
[13:08] SignpostMarv Martin: lol, not as an upgrade
[13:08] Zero Linden: Woot... we could have a plug-in party!
[13:08] SignpostMarv Martin: but in the next hardware revision
[13:08] Saijanai Dagger: and high-end video cards are more expensive than CPUs
[13:08] SignpostMarv Martin: I was talking with Gwyn about it
[13:08] Kooky Jetaime: signpost - that would definatly put Het Grid through its paces
[13:08] Zero Linden: actually, we don't have 3d cards in any of our servers!
[13:08] Kooky Jetaime: running 2 versions of the software concurrently on different systems.. 1 with software physics, 1 with hardware
[13:09] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[13:09] Zero Linden: eh, HetGrid is up to it - that is exactly the kind of thing that Het Grid is designed for
[13:09] SignpostMarv Martin: we came to the conclusion that the only way it'd be financially viable for LL was to charge a rolling yearly fee, and to require sim owners to pay for the sim 1 year up front,
[13:09] Saijanai Dagger: some of us were chatting about that. YOu should use Dale Classes' travel bot and a map generator script to repalce the Map application serverside
[13:09] Kooky Jetaime: Yea.. but who's gonna wanna keep track of the server software and make sure the versions will always match the HW requirements ;)
[13:09] Zero Linden: Gee, don't you think map generation is slow enough as it is?
[13:09] SignpostMarv Martin: The thing is,
[13:10] Zero Linden: ANYHOW
[13:10] Tao Takashi: I'd think you wouldn't have that many sim owners if they need pay upfront 1 year
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: a PPU being inserted into the system shouldn't affect het-grid at all
[13:10] Zero Linden: So - for newcomers (and old), welcome to my office hours
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: PhysX can work without a C
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: whoops
[13:10] Zero Linden: everything said here ends up in the public wiki -
[13:10] Tao Takashi made it again after a while :)
[13:10] Saijanai Dagger: the thing about hat strategy is that it leverages client-side rendering, and you can run as many bots as you want
[13:10] Zero Linden: so speak freely and speak in public
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: PhysX can work without a PhysX card being in the system
[13:10] Seqkat Kayo: everything? Or just the useful information?
[13:10] SignpostMarv Martin: it's just running on software
[13:10] Zha Ewry: Everything!
[13:10] Zha Ewry: Down to the bad puns and snarky comments
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: Zero - What happened saturday night, because the blog doesn't quite cover it...
[13:10] Dizzy Banjo: lol.. even the griefing..
[13:10] Kooky Jetaime: Let me show you
[13:11] Tao Takashi: you can write private messages on banners though and show them around
[13:11] Seqkat Kayo: Why? isn't that counter productive?
[13:11] Zha Ewry: Even things which happen when Zero isn't here
[13:11] Kooky Jetaime gave you Snapshot : Anzere Infohub - By the Confeder, Anzere (71, 50, 12.
[13:11] Kooky Jetaime: That was hours after the "Short" interuption
[13:11] Zero Linden: Tao - you can....
[13:11] Tao Takashi: IMs might be easier ;-)
[13:11] Zero Linden: I believe that there was some planned outage on Saturday night - But I'm not aware about the details - sorry, Kooky
[13:11] Zero Linden: BUT
[13:11] Zero Linden: before we get too far afield
[13:12] Zero Linden: there is something big to talk about
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: ok...
[13:12] Saijanai Dagger: /...???
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: Havok4 or Mono?
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime grins
[13:12] Zero Linden: bigger!
[13:12] Tao Takashi: new grid architecture
[13:12] Dnate Mars: HAVOK5?
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: Oh?
[13:12] Dizzy Banjo on tender hooks
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: Havok 5//hahah
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: uhm
[13:12] Zha Ewry: And open grid archicture process?
[13:12] Tao Takashi: Linden Lab takes over the world basically ;-)
[13:12] Kooky Jetaime: Dual-Domain is ready to come online for initial testing?
[13:12] SignpostMarv Martin: dual domain ??
[13:13] Rex Cronon: gambling comes back to sl?
[13:13] Saijanai Dagger: zero is enjoying himself?
[13:13] Kooky Jetaime: SPM - Look over your right shoulder
[13:13] Zero Linden: Geeze you're a chatty bunch!
[13:13] Tao Takashi: we are residents, ya know
[13:13] Saijanai Dagger shuts his trap
[13:13] Kooky Jetaime: well, your not divulging, so we're guessing!
[13:13] Zero Linden: Yes - The Second Life Grid Architecture Working Group had its first meeting last week
[13:13] Zero Linden: I'm typing as fast as I can
[13:13] SignpostMarv Martin: ah yes, i've seen that
[13:13] Zero Linden: and trying to find damn wiki pages
[13:14] Zha Ewry: Which ones do you want, Zero, I've hot most of them bookmarked
[13:14] Kooky Jetaime: damnit Zero, this is what lunch time is for, to prep and get links.. :D
[13:14] Tao Takashi: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group
[13:14] Tao Takashi: or http://
[13:14] SignpostMarv Martin: ah cool. decentralised login w/service traversal
[13:14] Rex Cronon: u r not the only one that has a hard time finding things in wiki
[13:14] Zero Linden: Thanks you Tao!
[13:14] Kooky Jetaime: Rex - I do too
[13:14] Saijanai Dagger: Almost no-one at the Life 2.0 conference teday was even ware that something had happened last week
[13:14] Tao Takashi: me, too, even my own poages ;-)
[13:14] Kooky Jetaime: but thats because the wiki seems slow to me.. I'm wondering if its overworked
[13:15] Tao Takashi: my blog post about it: http://taotakashi.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/linden-lab-reveals-the-future-of-second-life/
[13:15] Zero Linden: Well, alas, it has been a very busy week for me with other things with deadlines
[13:15] SignpostMarv Martin: oh joy, my GPU is starting to screw up polygons as well as textures :-s
[13:15] Kooky Jetaime: I knew something happened.... half of the good office hours were vacant
[13:15] Zero Linden: so I appologize for not having a blog post yet
[13:15] Zero Linden: first
[13:15] Zero Linden: slide 0
[13:15] Zero Linden: there we go
[13:15] Zero Linden: So - the basic theme is this
[13:16] Tao Takashi: btw, could I have a copy of the slides in-world? people seem to be ineterested and I might want to make a little meeting to explain things to them
[13:16] Zero Linden: LL wants to evolve teh SL architecture into something that is internet wide
[13:16] Saijanai Dagger: th'ere ant hippoltropolis
[13:16] Zha Ewry: They are on the opensource island
[13:16] Zero Linden: and to do that, we think this evolution has to take place in public
[13:16] Saijanai Dagger: hippotropolis
[13:16] Zha Ewry: Hippotropolis
[13:16] Tao Takashi: ah, ok. hopefully copyable :)
[13:17] Saijanai Dagger: one point that lots of hve raised is that one sim-topology doesn't fit all.
[13:17] Zero Linden: There - I think you can buy this one for L$0
[13:17] Saijanai Dagger: Space sims and fanatasy sims need warp portals not walk-across borders
[13:17] Tao Takashi: thanks! :)
[13:17] Kooky Jetaime: $10
[13:17] Zero Linden: sorry - should have been 0
[13:17] Zero Linden: fixed
[13:18] Tao Takashi: well, I am happy to have paid you L$10 for it :)
[13:18] Kooky Jetaime: Thanks
[13:18] Tao Takashi: well, thanks :)
[13:18] Zero Linden: So
[13:18] Zero Linden: SO - about process and design
[13:18] SignpostMarv Martin: just by looking at the diagram, it seems that the plan is for the dual-domain thing is analgous to how OpenID support in Firefox would be implemented
[13:18] Squirrel Wood: http://www.dream.at/temp/ohours.htm <= office hours in an easy readable format. ^^
[13:18] Zero Linden: First and foremost, the full set of use cases hasn't been developed - at all!
[13:19] Tao Takashi: me and otakup0pe started to collect some of them though
[13:19] Zero Linden: Exactly - we need to hear from you all about that
[13:19] Zha Ewry grins "You don't want to know how many people I have who want to post some of them... "
[13:19] Tao Takashi: and I tried to come up with some scenarios which are hopefully somewhat different from what SL is
[13:20] Zero Linden: Second, it was clear that we need to develope (again with you all) a clear statement about metrics for design
[13:20] Zero Linden: But I can tell you, that there will be a heavy focus on doing things in a way that
[13:20] Zha Ewry bounces and gestures at the wiki
[13:20] Zero Linden: a) can be migrated from where we are today
[13:20] Zero Linden: b) Support what we have today in SL well and quickly
[13:20] Tao Takashi: that was clear ;-)
[13:20] Squirrel Wood: You need more squirrels ^^
[13:20] Zero Linden: c) are open-ended enough to allow future extension without having designed all possible variation in from the start
[13:21] SignpostMarv Martin: ah, so no bumpy transition to SL2.0 then :-P
[13:21] Zero Linden: NO
[13:21] Zha Ewry: Definitely not
[13:21] SignpostMarv Martin: seamlessness :-3
[13:21] Tao Takashi: now please recreate all your content ;-)
[13:21] Rex Cronon: automatic tools to do that tao. one hopes that
[13:21] Saijanai Dagger goes awwww. wanted to see the landowners revolvt
[13:21] Zero Linden: sorry
[13:21] Zero Linden: there
[13:21] Zero Linden: So
[13:22] Zero Linden: as has been pointed out by some
[13:22] Tao Takashi: well, I guess there should be no need to convert too much in object space
[13:22] Zero Linden: the real meat of the matter (funny coming from a vegetarian)
[13:22] Zero Linden: is the protocols in these red lines
[13:22] Squirrel Wood: Vegetarians eat my foods food!
[13:22] Tao Takashi: even if the protocols are totally different from today object could be converted on the fly
[13:22] Dizzy Banjo: so what order of magnitude are we talking about here zero.. 10.. 100.. 10000 times the size of the existing grid ?
[13:22] 57 Miles: hi all
[13:22] Zero Linden: What's inside the boxes must be possible and scalable, but needn't be part of the spec
[13:22] Zero Linden: Ah
[13:23] Saijanai Dagger: 10^6x
[13:23] Zero Linden: the numbers
[13:23] Rex Cronon: hi 57
[13:23] Zero Linden: hold on to your seats
[13:23] Dizzy Banjo: :D
[13:23] Zero Linden: 60M regions
[13:23] Wyn Galbraith holds on to the ring.
[13:23] Zero Linden: 2B avatar accounts
[13:23] Tao Takashi: ah, 60 not 16 :)
[13:23] Tao Takashi: should update that
[13:23] Zero Linden: maybe 50M to 100M on-line
[13:23] Tao Takashi: how do you come to these numbers, btw?
[13:23] Kooky Jetaime: Zero - how many regions are we supporting now?
[13:23] Dizzy Banjo: christ
[13:23] Squirrel Wood: imagine the group IM spammage ^^
[13:23] Zero Linden: Well - current surveys say there are 120M web servers on the internet
[13:23] Dizzy Banjo: 50M - 100M concurrency ?!!?!
[13:23] Tao Takashi: ah, you go from there
[13:23] Rex Cronon: how many concurrent users?
[13:23] Saijanai Dagger: hey 57
[13:24] Zero Linden: I think regions need to be eventually at least half as ubiquitous (sp?)
[13:24] SignpostMarv Martin: concurrency would imply that they'd all be logged into the same grid, which isn't necesarily the same thing as the same service
[13:24] Zero Linden: 2B accounts roughly (very) matches some gross estimates of the number of e-mail address in use
[13:24] Tao Takashi: well, basically it sort of means that you need to be able to hold any number of regions, residents and concurrency ;-)
[13:24] Zero Linden: So that number may or may not be high
[13:24] Zero Linden: and concurrency is much more of a crap-shoot
[13:24] Tao Takashi: ok
[13:24] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[13:25] Zero Linden: but Skype has 7M on line
[13:25] Zha Ewry: Note... orders, plural orders of magnitude bigger than SL today
[13:25] Zero Linden: I imagine that we might easily have 5x to 10x that overall - but
[13:25] Dizzy Banjo: indeed
[13:25] Zero Linden: but remember that on-line might mean something more lightweight in the future
[13:25] Saijanai Dagger: told ya, 10^6
[13:25] Tao Takashi: yep, not all of those 50M will be in 3D space
[13:26] Zero Linden: Or at least not all of them will be mvoing around, rendering 3D space....
[13:26] Dizzy Banjo: ok
[13:26] Zero Linden: They might be there as sort of static - I'm here, come talk to me, mode
[13:26] Saijanai Dagger: and private sims might count as somewhere in the middle.
[13:26] Cyph Clary: What about max agents per sim?
[13:26] Dizzy Banjo: so this would include cellphone viewer access perhaps ?
[13:26] Tao Takashi: I guess max agents per sim depends mainly on the region implementation
[13:27] Rex Cronon: i guess inventories will have to be stored locally
[13:27] SignpostMarv Martin: Dizzy: you could log into SL via any device if you spent the time to develop an app using either the GPL'd source code or libSL
[13:27] Zero Linden: The key about this kind of architecture is that should leave that kind of question to the individual sim hosters
[13:27] Dizzy Banjo: sure
[13:27] Zero Linden: We define the protocol to a sim, not the implementation
[13:27] Tao Takashi: inventory is in the agent domain for the agents and region domain for the regions
[13:27] Zha Ewry suspects you can get a few more conncurent Aves on a bluegene cluster than a single blade
[13:27] Saijanai Dagger: client needs a LOT of owkr to factor the GUI out of teh mix (says someone who has been wading through GUI code for some days now)
[13:27] Cyph Clary: hmmm from what I see its easier to scale number of sims than whats in a sim
[13:27] Zero Linden: there needs to be multiple implementations of each part, otherwise we don't have something we can call the standard of the metaverse
[13:27] Tao Takashi: I wouldn't want to have less inventory when logging in from another cmpt
[13:28] Tao Takashi: btw, how does this relate to the Metaverse 1.0 thing I just read about? Is this anything to work with? is this a serious effort actually?
[13:28] Tao Takashi: because the goal sounds similar if not broader
[13:28] Rex Cronon: u can have a database file u can bring it to any computer u use to log in
[13:28] Tao Takashi: Rex: too unpractical for me ;-)
[13:28] Kooky Jetaime thinks of the day when my region will be on my own laptop, and I can take it with me wherever I go regardless if I'm on the grid or offline...
[13:29] Tao Takashi: I think best is really to have it on an agent store somewhere
[13:29] Zero Linden: well - I don't know - what "Metaverse 1.0" thing?
[13:29] SignpostMarv Martin: Rex: "database file " ?
[13:29] Zero Linden: you mean like this, Kooky?
[13:29] Kooky Jetaime: yep
[13:29] Zero Linden points at slide
[13:29] Tao Takashi: http://www.lostinthemagicforest.com/blog/?p=43 has more about it
[13:29] Saijanai Dagger still worries about the central physics server issue. Not possible to have arcade games and WOW/EQ games using the current physics design
[13:29] Kooky Jetaime: I've seent hat slide before :)
[13:29] Tao Takashi: it seems it will be announce at the San Jose conference
[13:30] SignpostMarv Martin: Saijanai: see my earlier questions about hardware-accelerated physics
[13:30] Rex Cronon: event a text file can be used as a database to store all your inventory and your info
[13:30] Tao Takashi: but it might also be just some effort to get money to do nothing really useful with ;-)
[13:30] Zero Linden: ha - first I've ever heard of that team
[13:30] Saijanai Dagger: not something that SL supports
[13:30] Kooky Jetaime: Zero - I'm picturing our Hiro Protagonist riding in his car with his goggles on, stuck in his own little mansion since he's not on his fiber... :D
[13:30] Zha Ewry: Saijanai, that's just the internals of the engine, the APIS tell you what you need to do to talk to it
[13:30] SignpostMarv Martin: sure it can
[13:30] Tao Takashi: ok, I'd guess if they are serious they would have contacted LL ;-)
[13:30] SignpostMarv Martin: server side :-P
[13:30] Dizzy Banjo: lol hiro protagonist..
[13:31] Zero Linden: Saijanai - I'm not sure that our design target has arcade games and WOW/EQ on it
[13:31] Tao Takashi: well, it would be nice though to be able to use this architecture for games, too
[13:31] Saijanai Dagger: sure, but that's where the users are, at least at the moment
[13:31] Tao Takashi: like I could have an WoW agent attached to my identity
[13:31] Kooky Jetaime: You know, its amazing how close we are to having "Earth" as depicted there.... *Points at Google Earth & Nasa World Wind
[13:31] Kooky Jetaime: yep tao
[13:31] Kooky Jetaime: thats verry interesting
[13:32] Zero Linden: Saijanai - I'm pretty sure the numbers, long term are here
[13:32] Tao Takashi: and maybe games and VW will grow more together in the future anyway
[13:32] Saijanai Dagger: active accounts for WoW ~ total number of people who have tried SL
[13:32] SignpostMarv Martin: Tao: the way I'm seeing things, you wouldn't need it "attached" to your identity,
[13:32] Saijanai Dagger: concurency is likely 20-30x SL's
[13:32] SignpostMarv Martin: you'd just teleport over to WoW from SL, logging into userserver.wow.com
[13:32] Tao Takashi: but I only want 1 identity with many agents for all those VWs
[13:32] Zha Ewry: Well, if you want Wow as a requirement, you just need to right the use cases, and prod the AWG to make sure the design ca support it. And if they
[13:32] Tao Takashi: because each agent might need different information
[13:32] Zha Ewry: say "we can't" then you get to tell us how to do it ;)
[13:32] Dizzy Banjo: so.. this plan.. is effectively a way of scaling the existing platform of SL .. massively.. but fundamentaly not changing the way it works ie.. SL will be bigger and include more people.. but resources will still be spread to the same "thickness" ?
[13:33] Zero Linden: Dizzy - no, I don't think so
[13:33] Squirrel Wood: google is increasing their map zoom up to a 30cm (bout 12") resolution..
[13:33] Kooky Jetaime: What would be nice is, if you could have 1 account, identity, whatever.. and that account would be tied to you explicitly... through some complicated and infalable way of confirming you are the holder of the account.. And within that identity/account you could create multiple personas that can be in the world.
[13:33] Zero Linden: the resource "thinkness", is mostly a design and budge constraint of the implementation of individual sims
[13:33] Tao Takashi: I think it's a completely different architecture were some parts can be reused of course
[13:33] Zero Linden: it is quite possible that someone could through much more, or much less, resources at a region simulation
[13:33] Tao Takashi: like the sim code
[13:33] Kooky Jetaime: you could have five personas.
[13:33] Kooky Jetaime: but all point back to you
[13:33] Zero Linden: of course- there are current today limits on viewers
[13:33] Tao Takashi: but a region could also be a cluster then
[13:34] Wyn Galbraith likes that idea.
[13:34] Kooky Jetaime: so if you grief on one, you would be penalized on your master account, not that persona.
[13:34] Dizzy Banjo: thats very interesting
[13:34] Zero Linden: but - so what if someone comes and says "to be in this sim, you need a kick ass video card and 4G of memory..."
[13:34] Dizzy Banjo: so you could create very very high performance areas
[13:34] Zero Linden: quite possible
[13:34] Tao Takashi: Kooky: that's my idea. you have one persona=identity with different profiles for each usage
[13:34] Squirrel Wood: Zero, I'm wondering if there is any plans to increase the maximum prim count per sim ?
[13:34] Dizzy Banjo: ?
[13:34] Tao Takashi: so we need also HW verification? :)
[13:34] SignpostMarv Martin: Tao: Profiles is just metadata attached to an identity right ?
[13:34] Tao Takashi: sort of yes
[13:34] Wyn Galbraith: SL already does a hw verification. It tells me what systems I can't run on. :)
[13:34] Zero Linden: within Linden's sim today there is very little plan to increase prim count or other major "resource thickness" --- (love taht term, clearly)
[13:35] Dizzy Banjo: for instance you could create a very rich media experience in one sim ? by layering resources very "thickly" on it ?
[13:35] Zha Ewry nods at Dizzy
[13:35] Kooky Jetaime: Tao - and when I say infalable, I mean actually having offices where you have to go in and meet someone face to face, or possibly use my webcam idea.
[13:35] Dizzy Banjo: lol hey Zero .. i coined that now.. lol
[13:35] Squirrel Wood: :(
[13:35] Zero Linden: We are short term mostly concerned with stability and scaling (honest!)
[13:35] Tao Takashi: I had one example scenario about some Google Earth like setup in which you can also add more layers to your view
[13:35] Squirrel Wood: not even to 20k from 15k?
[13:35] Zero Linden: Nope
[13:35] Squirrel Wood: darn :p
[13:35] Tao Takashi: but 30K? ;-)
[13:36] Saijanai Dagger: sculpties, used judiciously, should reduce prim-count requirements for a lot of things, especially avatars
[13:36] Zha Ewry: If the archiutecture is right.. one could have a sim with a lot of bandwidth to fewer uses and default richer media
[13:36] Zero Linden: we would so much rather get to a place where you could plug in your own sim to run your own region
[13:36] Squirrel Wood: I have a tool that needs only 65k+ prims :p
[13:36] Saijanai Dagger: once the bugs are worked out of oucrse
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: I've seen some sims running higher/lower prim counts... prim count multiplier I believe
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: private sims
[13:36] Zero Linden: and play with those knobs yourself
[13:36] Dizzy Banjo: this is great !!
[13:36] Zha Ewry: And... Again.. while Linden may not touch it short term, the goal should allow it easily.
[13:36] Tao Takashi: but multiplier does not extend the amount of prims
[13:36] Jason Swain: @Squirrel, Yes a greater maximum prim count per sim would be nice ^^
[13:36] Zero Linden: exactly
[13:36] Tao Takashi: only that of parcels but all in all it cannot go over 15.000
[13:36] Kooky Jetaime: Oh, its the "object bonus"
[13:37] Zero Linden: but that is a fundimental trade off of our engineering resources
[13:37] Tao Takashi: so you'd better fill your parcel quickly ;-)
[13:37] Kooky Jetaime: :/
[13:37] Zero Linden: to work more on bringing the evolution of the architecture about
[13:37] Zero Linden: rather than increase the feature or perfomance of the system as it is
[13:37] Zero Linden: we will of course do some
[13:38] Zero Linden: but we have only so many engineers and only so much ability to produce product
[13:38] Dizzy Banjo: personally im not that excited about increasing the size of the grid.. its already massive.. more concurrency in regions would be great.. and generally a much richer experience bandwidth wise would be really nice.. lol
[13:38] Wyn Galbraith: I think you're right to try to get the architecture and stability down before going on. There's lots of things I'd like to see, but frankly I'd like the experence to be stable. Which is has grown more stable over the last year.
[13:38] Zero Linden: Well- more bandwidth or more prims or more physics or more rendering or more avatars or....
[13:38] Saijanai Dagger: but even the future course, STILL doesn't allow for the major architectural design of WoW/EQ-type games. At the least, portals between such grids and SL need to be allowed for
[13:39] Zero Linden: will create one kind of expanded experience
[13:39] Zero Linden: But,
[13:39] Dizzy Banjo: syre
[13:39] Dizzy Banjo: sure*
[13:39] Squirrel Wood: More everything pretty please ^^
[13:39] Wyn Galbraith: That adds to he experience and adds to the instability.
[13:39] Zero Linden: and open grid where people can plug the components into a vaster array of the internet I think will open up a
[13:39] Zero Linden: much richer range of experience
[13:39] 57 Miles: im with dizzy. more interested in getting 200ppl in a sim than expanding the grid in general
[13:39] Jason Swain: Will stablity issues also include fixing know SIM exploites (e.g. SIM crashing hacks)?
[13:40] Dizzy Banjo: so.. fundamentally LL are still sticking to the concept of a single grid.. rather than say the multiverse / ogoglio model ?
[13:40] Wyn Galbraith: That's why I think the server side should be as contained as it can and then have everything else plugged in on top.
[13:40] Saijanai Dagger: ideally, the new grid architecture will facilitate more people per sim, at least in the long run
[13:40] Tao Takashi: well, I am all for extending the grid and also allow custom implementations
[13:40] Tao Takashi: we might be sooner at 200ppl with that solution maybe
[13:40] Zero Linden: Jason- yes there are significant engineering resources deployed on exploits, stability, and performance (meaning keeping it good)
[13:40] Dizzy Banjo: with portals etc..
[13:40] Zero Linden: I'm with Tao
[13:40] Tao Takashi: and it will help to survive the grid
[13:40] Jason Swain: Thanks ^^
[13:40] Tao Takashi: the grid to survive :)
[13:41] Kooky Jetaime: which is why we're getting an SL Update for that URL Exploit
[13:41] Zero Linden: I bet OpenSim will get 200 avatars in a sim sooner than we will!
[13:41] 57 Miles: :)
[13:41] Dizzy Banjo: so.. fundamentally LL are still sticking to the concept of a single grid.. rather than say the multiverse / ogoglio model ?
[13:41] Zero Linden: Really
[13:41] Saijanai Dagger: but they don't have your constraints, so this is to be expected
[13:41] Tao Takashi: and if people like IBM and Sun jump into the boat they might also do implementations with clusters etc.
[13:41] Tao Takashi: but if it stays closed this won't happen
[13:41] Tao Takashi: at least not with LL or SL
[13:41] Dizzy Banjo: yeh
[13:41] Kooky Jetaime: dizzy - it looks multi-verse to me
[13:41] Zero Linden: I think everyone here can attest to why a single grid is such a valuable thing -
[13:41] Zha Ewry: Well, not clear if anyone knows what to do with a sim with 200 aves in a small area. With 80, it's hard to move if they all want to hear each other.
[13:42] Dizzy Banjo: i can see benefits of both
[13:42] Rex Cronon: imagine 200 avatars each firing bullest. that wont' work unless a better version of havok is available
[13:42] Wyn Galbraith doesn't think SL is at the point of opening up the server software, "wouldn't you want that stable first before it's opened?"
[13:42] Kooky Jetaime: look at the next slide
[13:42] Dizzy Banjo: i can see immense benefits to LL for one grid
[13:42] Zero Linden: The ability to keep one's identity and engague in a wide variety of 3D collaborative experience is what makes this work
[13:42] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[13:42] 57 Miles: for big events Wyn it would be awesome
[13:42] Saijanai Dagger sishes certain architecture had been changed before the client was oppensourced
[13:42] 57 Miles: but you're rigth, for everyday use you dont want 200ppl around you
[13:42] Cyph Clary: You can always build up
[13:42] Zha Ewry: As far as a gid vs metterverse.. It's not clear to me that I know what the terms mean, when we can have sub-parts of the grid hostyed on differently owned server clourds
[13:43] Tao Takashi: btw, how much luck do you think LL needs to have that this architecture gets popular? :)
[13:43] Saijanai Dagger: Wow+ EQ + Croquet + MetaVerse + Wonderland = metaverse
[13:43] Tao Takashi: and not something else or we will stay with closed VWs
[13:43] Saijanai Dagger: left out SL... ;-)
[13:43] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[13:44] Tao Takashi: I mean businesses all over seem to love the idea of close communities somehow
[13:44] Zero Linden: I don't think it is about luck - I think it is about community -
[13:44] Saijanai Dagger: except the internet itself of course
[13:44] Zha Ewry: Its one grid, in some sense, if you share core identities.. and utitlties.. but a meteverse, if there are very different sub clusters
[13:44] Zero Linden: Do you want to create an internet scale universe that we can all build on
[13:44] 57 Miles: no body but the little guys want an open VW's system right?
[13:44] Tao Takashi: I would still count a little bit of luck in :)
[13:44] Tao Takashi: we users want open stuff of course
[13:44] Zero Linden: Or do you want virtual worlds to build portals between them?
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: both? :)
[13:44] Kooky Jetaime: just to be difficult
[13:45] Dizzy Banjo: yes both
[13:45] Saijanai Dagger: As I said, portals to nonSL-style grids need to be suported
[13:45] Tao Takashi: if it's a question, then both ;-)
[13:45] 57 Miles: id sooner see a clear winner, and a standard we can all build on
[13:45] Zero Linden: Well - virtual worlds and 3D games will probably go in the direction of portals
[13:45] Tao Takashi: we might need some ways of differentiating between different object formats and region formats
[13:45] 57 Miles: go browser wars! we didnt have enough of this 7yrs back, lets do it all againh :)
[13:45] Kooky Jetaime: because there will always be systems in place not fundimentally compatable with the SL Concept, so have portals..but have a world that we can live in too
[13:45] Tao Takashi: so for some you might need completely different avatars and viewers etc.
[13:45] Saijanai Dagger: but in this case, there are two very different standards with two very different purposes, but BOTH should be accomidated in some way
[13:45] Zero Linden: If you want an internet scale metaverse, then we (LL and you) need to go create it!
[13:45] Dizzy Banjo: lol 57
[13:45] Tao Takashi: but you might still be able to reuse your identity information at least or maybe your textures
[13:45] Kooky Jetaime chuckles at 57.. only this time, we're trying to turn all the browsers into 1 big SuperBrowser.. Little different :)
[13:46] Saijanai Dagger: OPenDoc, anyone?
[13:46] Tao Takashi: there will always be competition, 57
[13:46] Squirrel Wood points at the time :(
[13:46] Zero Linden: I firmly believe the Internet Scale Metaverse will happen because it is what is most valuable to people -
[13:46] Tao Takashi: but I guess that's good :)
[13:46] Zero Linden: Therefore I'm for being part of making it built.
[13:47] Tao Takashi: at least we don't have that much of HTML and HTTP wars ;-)
[13:47] Saijanai Dagger: I agree, Zero, but even without the metaverse, there should be specialized plugins (portals and viewers)
[13:47] Zha Ewry: As a purely personal opionin (Ignoring the tag over my head) I'm with Zero on this.
[13:47] Saijanai Dagger: even withIN*
[13:47] Tao Takashi: I am also with Zero
[13:47] 57 Miles: i want to see SL in a tab on Firefox (if we're doing wishlists :)
[13:47] Saijanai Dagger: 90% in agreement, as long as portals exist
[13:47] Zha Ewry: And. it will get to the point where we have lots of variations.. scaling towards games and rich media, and such over time
[13:47] Zero Linden feels like he should be standing in Roman armor and carrying a spear over his head
[13:47] Kooky Jetaime: ok.. Go Zero, you'll be late
[13:48] Tao Takashi: so what are the next actions now, btw?
[13:48] Wyn Galbraith: Like the 300.
[13:48] Zero Linden: True - need to go.....
[13:48] Zero Linden: Thanks for coming, all
[13:48] Zero Linden: Till next time
[13:48] Tao Takashi: thanks for hosting, Zero :)
[13:48] Saijanai Dagger: thanks zero
[13:48] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks for the meeting, sorry I was late.
[13:48] Rex Cronon: bye zero