User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Sep 25

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Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:04] Wyn Galbraith: There's nothing to return.
[13:04] Rob Linden: Zero is on his way
[13:04] McPhenius Swain: Hi Zero
[13:04] Morgaine Dinova: Wyn: that is actually the key to grief control. If each person can turn off what they don't want to see (maybe with help of event proxy), abuse disappears.
[13:04] Tree Kyomoon: Wyn hasnt that been ongoing?
[13:04] Rex Cronon: key grabbing of textures?
[13:04] Rob Linden: (speak of the devil)
[13:04] Wyn Galbraith came hee to get away from it.
[13:04] Richard Noonan: LL tech can reset it though
[13:04] Tillie Ariantho: There is Zero. :)
[13:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Zero
[13:04] Rex Cronon: hi
[13:04] Zero Linden: If we each turn off what we don't want to see, do we have a shared experience?
[13:04] Rob Linden: Xanshin: send mail to security@lindenlab.com
[13:04] Wyn Galbraith: Started just about 10 minutes ago in BL Diablo
[13:04] Tao Takashi: Hey Zero
[13:04] Tree Kyomoon: hey there zero!
[13:05] Squirrel Wood: Need a seat? Try the ring!
[13:05] Zero Linden: But, no, I *really* don't want to go there
[13:05] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: we don;t want a shared experience of griefing
[13:05] Wyn Galbraith: And Arthur.
[13:05] Saijanai Kuhn pulls up an old crate
[13:05] Tao Takashi: you mean a shared griefing experience? ;-)
[13:05] Zero Linden: unless it is after 5pm and I've had two beers
[13:05] Tree Kyomoon: hah
[13:05] McPhenius Swain: perfect
[13:05] Tree Kyomoon goes to the fridge for a can o keiths
[13:05] Zha Ewry pulls up a few sqaure Meters of air
[13:05] Wyn Galbraith: All I want is the AR dialog to not lose focus when the assult is going on. Can that be done?
[13:05] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Zha!
[13:05] Zha Ewry: Chairs are *so* 2000
[13:06] Squirrel Wood: Humm.... animation permission griefing spam is happening as we speak.
[13:06] Tao Takashi: still trying to get opensim running to be prepared for protocol implementation ;)
[13:06] Fremont Cunningham sits on the floor
[13:06] Tree Kyomoon: /chairs are for asses
[13:06] Wyn Galbraith: At Buring Life. So much for putting on the final touches.
[13:06] Rob Linden wasn't really typing...just packet loss it seems
[13:07] Zero Linden: wow - there are 25 people in the sim- this must be a record for my office hours
[13:07] Zero Linden: what are you all DOING here?!?!?!
[13:07] Zha Ewry grins
[13:07] Zero Linden: OH
[13:07] Zero Linden: Welcome!
[13:07] McPhenius Swain: We heard open bar
[13:07] Zha Ewry: Your out of chairs, Zero
[13:07] Tao Takashi: talking about DRM ;-)
[13:07] Wyn Galbraith: We need a 'don't panic' button for when being griefed that turns off everything but the AR and maybe chat/IM.
[13:07] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: did you get a chance to read my AWG->Project_Motivation->Talk page? I sent you an IM yesterday
[13:07] Zero Linden: Welcome to my office hours
[13:07] Tree Kyomoon: hey you posted the blog about the AWG :)
[13:07] Zero Linden: Sorry, I've been rather swamped - haven't been reading
[13:07] Squirrel Wood points at the ring she's sitting on. Feel free to join me. There's room for everyone.
[13:07] Zero Linden: Right - only posting
[13:07] Fremont Cunningham: Waiting for news of Two Domain architecture
[13:07] Zero Linden: I've been in write-only mode for the last few days!
[13:08] Zha Ewry has noticed
[13:08] Zero Linden: Okay - well, Welcome all -- as many ofyou know, these office hours are a public space and the transcripts are posted
[13:08] Opensource Obscure: thanks zero, and hi all. i will lurk. i like to learn more about how it works.
[13:08] Zero Linden: to the wiki
[13:08] Morgaine Dinova: Write-only mode sounds like my backup system.
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Tak gave a public talk on the new open architecture and mentioned your office hours. Blame him
[13:08] Tao Takashi: Soft mentioned them! ;-)
[13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao Tak
[13:08] Zero Linden: So gosh - yes, I've blogged about the Arch. Working Group
[13:08] Tao Takashi: maybe me too
[13:08] Tree Kyomoon: Prokofy did as well :)
[13:08] Zha Ewry: and.. we've been filling the wiki with words
[13:09] Zero Linden: and the comments came fast a furious
[13:09] Tree Kyomoon apologizes for all the blathering on the wiki
[13:09] Wyn Galbraith idles to get more coffee. "That was an interesting blog, Tree, the meeting with Prokofy. I'm sorry that sushi won.
[13:09] Zero Linden: and a HUGE ROUND OF APPLAUSE for Tao for being everywhere at once and replying on the blog, in the wiki, on SLDev, in ./, etc....
[13:09] Morgaine Dinova: I think Prokofy was filed away under "Irrelevant" by several people under Brainstorming->Talk
[13:09] Zero Linden: /clap
[13:09] Tao Takashi: I just want this project to rock :-)
[13:09] Tillie Ariantho: Hey Dale :)
[13:09] Zero Linden: Me too!
[13:10] Tao Takashi: and it still seems not yet on every blog where I awaited it to be, as e.g. 3pointd
[13:10] Tao Takashi: and metaversed only had it today or so
[13:10] Zero Linden: So - quick, "where the H*!! has Zero BEEN?!?!?!"
[13:10] Dale Glass: somebody actually cares about Prokofy?
[13:10] Wyn Galbraith: Working.
[13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: SL = prototype Web 3.0. Who doesn't want to participate in that?
[13:10] Tillie Ariantho: I am still concerned about security in the open infrastructure...
[13:10] Dale Glass: I saw him once and that was more than enough
[13:10] Zero Linden: I've been doing four things:
[13:10] Wyn Galbraith: Well Prokofy is a.. hrm, don't know what to call it, but has some value, just comes in a nasty package sometimes.
[13:10] JayR Cela: Prok ruined 2 meetings last week
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith: Zero's meeting, enough about Prokofy.
[13:11] Zero Linden: Internally, inside Linden Lab, I've taken responsibility for "Develop The Platform"
[13:11] Morgaine Dinova: Agreed
[13:11] Wyn Galbraith cheers.
[13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: woot
[13:11] Tillie Ariantho: coolio
[13:11] Zha Ewry looks to see if Zero is visibily stretched even thinner
[13:11] Tree Kyomoon: yay SL is a platform! And they got it in less years than it took macromedia to realize "flash" is a platform!
[13:11] Zero Linden: This means that I have to define it, and then sign up to make it happen
[13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Does that mean both now and arch #2?
[13:12] Zha Ewry: While we all throw (incredibly clever) stones at your lovely work?
[13:12] Zero Linden: I've been making sure the definition works
[13:12] Wyn Galbraith: Wow a historical moment. The day SL became a platform.
[13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear, marketting
[13:13] Zero Linden: Yes, it includes all platform and architecture work: I really don't like to say "SL 2.0", becuase I'm really committed to getting from here to there
[13:13] Tree Kyomoon remembers when Macromedia coined the term "Rich Internet Application"
[13:13] Zero Linden: without breaking the world in the process
[13:13] Zha Ewry: Well, in a service delivery model, just whast marks 1.x from 2..0?
[13:14] Zero Linden: Okay, so second is that I've been deluged with quite a number of external people and organizations
[13:14] Tao Takashi: actually in the long run to get outside people to be attracted by this, too, we should somehow remove "SL" from the name
[13:14] Tao Takashi: because they might have tried it already and maybe did not get it and for them SL is sort of burned now..
[13:14] Zero Linden: to talk with them, see how they can be involved, etc....
[13:14] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: does a gradual transition from #1 to #1000 qualify as breaking #1, or is it acceptable. Because #1 != #1000
[13:14] Tao Takashi: and they are all waiting for the next big thing after SL, not noticing maybe, that this might be SL as well
[13:14] Tree Kyomoon: login-less viewing of regions will do that Tao
[13:15] Tao Takashi: I mean from the name of the project, Tree, or in the end the name of the protocol
[13:15] Tree Kyomoon: SecondTube.com ...somebody register taht quick
[13:15] Zero Linden: Well, in any evolution, some things might break - but I really want us to work very hard to try to keep as much running as possible
[13:15] Zero Linden: this is nothing new - LL has always done this
[13:15] Zero Linden: you can believe how long Hinged objects were supported
[13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: What's wrong with breaking everything? ;-) https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-255
[13:15] Tillie Ariantho: WHat have they done? breaking things? Or trying to not breaking things? .)
[13:15] Morgaine Dinova: Running yes. The same, no. Eg. land prices might fall by 10000% ... but still work.
[13:15] Zero Linden: It's one of the few things we finally said, can't keep supporting
[13:16] Tao Takashi: and you still support the notion of a "resident" although they make a lot of problems usually ;-)
[13:16] Dizzy Banjo: finally escaped from the sim disaster that is sun/intel event
[13:16] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I'm pretty sure we are all broad enough to think that "work" means more than just technical compatibility
[13:16] Rex Cronon: what event dizzy?
[13:16] Zero Linden: And similarly that "evolve" means more than just the technical side of things
[13:16] Tao Takashi: it's great to hear that you also talked to outside parties, Zero
[13:16] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: so what you mean is, technical advances that disrupt economics will not be allowed.
[13:16] Tao Takashi: I hope something came out of that
[13:17] Morgaine Dinova: Prokofy will be happy.
[13:18] Zero Linden: Morgaine - the only problem with that is that it is couched in such a way as to imply that the economics is something that is a well understood, engineerable phenomenon
[13:18] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I wasn't trying to be obscure. In black and white: business interests want to to limit change. Will you?
[13:18] Zero Linden: But, yes, we aim to advance and expand the architecture, as outlined in SL Arch WG notes, while maintaining the content and community as it exists today
[13:18] Rob Linden: Morgaine: economic disruption is not desirable, but we can't promise to avoid it altogether
[13:19] Tree Kyomoon: economic disruption is necessary for economic growth
[13:19] Zero Linden: Morgaine - we will limit change where the community's interest, as a whole, is in such limits
[13:19] Tao Takashi: Ithink you cannot really say anyway what will happen when yo have an open grid
[13:19] Morgaine Dinova: Rob: my position is the opposite to that of the vested interests, or Prokofy. Virtual worlds change rapidly. Business needs to live with change, tough.
[13:19] Zero Linden: But, I'm not going sit here and guaruntee anyone's SL business model and viable for all time
[13:19] JayR Cela: the open grid will change everything
[13:19] Zero Linden: *as viable*
[13:20] Tao Takashi: I agree, Morgaine.. there are always risks involved when you do business
[13:20] Wyn Galbraith: Change is the only thing that is constant in life and software.
[13:20] Fremont Cunningham: SOme business interests are stifled by limitations in the present SL. Those cannot be addressed without change!
[13:20] Dizzy Banjo: creative enterprise is always viable
[13:20] Tao Takashi: and when you do business in a place like this even more
[13:20] Tao Takashi: you should also calculate in that LL might not be anymore tomorrow
[13:20] Morgaine Dinova: JayR: yes, I think you're right. protecting vested business interests has little chance of success in an open grid
[13:20] Wyn Galbraith is getting the resistance at home of needing new systems after only three years.
[13:20] Tree Kyomoon: only an idiot would think their SL business model was impervious to change
[13:20] Rob Linden: Morgaine: sure. however, there's a large amount of fear that we're doing this blindly. we're trying to be considerate while also being realistic about what we ultimately can/can't control
[13:20] Tao Takashi: which again should not mean that we will throw permissions away and don't work on trust systems
[13:21] Zero Linden: That all said, believe me, we feel that it is the social / economic structure that makes SL what it is and want to work to continue to make those structures work as they evolve
[13:21] Tao Takashi: Rob: I think there also needs to be more Linden input into the discussion
[13:21] Tao Takashi: like we all can just guess what you might do in the end
[13:21] Tao Takashi: (I know, you are all very busy :-) )
[13:21] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: you'd be surprised how many idiots have founded their businesses on a presumption of stability, and think LL must ensure it.
[13:22] JayR Cela: lets hire George Bush jr. he could really whip SL into shape :(
[13:22] Tree Kyomoon: Oh I realize that, I was one of them back in January!
[13:22] Zero Linden: Morgaine - believe me, I wouldn't!
[13:22] Wyn Galbraith: The whole concept of something like SL is constanly evolving which is change.
[13:22] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[13:22] Wyn Galbraith: LOL JayR!
[13:22] Wyn Galbraith: Please don't even suggest that!
[13:22] Zero Linden: Okay - so let's nip some things in the bud....
[13:22] Rob Linden: Tao: it's not only being "busy"...it's that many of us can only speak for ourselves to some degree. Other Lindens are also going to engage in this process over time and come up with considerations that Zero or I haven't thought of yet
[13:23] Morgaine Dinova: Yes. Even physical technology evolves rapidly. Virtual technology evolves even faster. The Luddites are out of luck.
[13:23] Dizzy Banjo: i would have to agree with prokofy in one respect that the involvement of a wider spectrum of the community is really imporant.. the culture of office hours may not necessarily support this very well.. do you think there is a better way to consult those social groups ?
[13:23] Rex Cronon: so, what drastic changes are on the horizon that makes bussineses become frantic?
[13:23] Zero Linden: Dizzy - I don't think these office hours are meant to be the only forum for such input
[13:23] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: well for example, land could cost L$1 per 10,000 acres. Do you think that might be disruptive to land barons, maybe?
[13:24] Tillie Ariantho: Rob: that's where the community is helping. have you seen the brainstorming page? Lots of ideas/ things to think of in there, and all valid.
[13:24] Zero Linden: In fact, I don't think *my* office hours are a good forum for community input on use cases and community needs on the architecture at all
[13:24] Tree Kyomoon: location location location morgaine
[13:24] Dale Glass: Well, IMO that system should go eventually. We should pay for resources (prim and script CPU usage) instead of amount of land
[13:24] Morgaine Dinova: I agree. Let's stick to technical issues here.
[13:24] Zero Linden: Hopefully, I'll be able to get some of the Community and Governance Lindens to hold office hours for such
[13:24] Rex Cronon: that affects only land, and they can buy their own servers and still make money
[13:24] Tree Kyomoon: theres 1024 in ambleside for 299,999 today
[13:24] Tao Takashi: Iridium was proposing some roundtable on the list
[13:25] Zero Linden: In addition, I think the wiki will be a great forum, if some people will be willing to organize the community input without judgement
[13:25] Tao Takashi: to also engage some of the "policy Lindens"
[13:25] Rob Linden: yup: you should take her up on that Tao
[13:25] Zero Linden Looks at the varous community advocates here
[13:25] Dizzy Banjo: why zero ? isnt this architecture her to serve a function .. ? a function defined by those use cases and community needs ?
[13:25] McPhenius Swain: Wiki would be good for that
[13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: WP has set a great precedent for NPOV writing. I think we can manage it.
[13:25] Zha Ewry: Zero.. when yo get to a good spot... I do want to sneak in one tech question :-)
[13:25] Zero Linden: Dizzy - yes indeed it is - But these office hours have been for discussion of technical matters
[13:25] JayR Cela: with open grid community goes right out the window
[13:26] Tree Kyomoon is surprised how quiet zha has been :)
[13:26] JayR Cela: is all wide open wild wild west again
[13:26] Zero Linden: I'm not denying that we need community involvement to ensure that the functinality set is well defined for the ends they need
[13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: not at all. OpenGrid means that comunities form exactly as they like them, not at the mercy of LL's need to kowtow to specific legal/cultural norms
[13:26] Wyn Galbraith: She's meditating.
[13:26] Tao Takashi: nothing will be wild wild west
[13:26] Zero Linden: I'm just saying EVERY conversation cannot entail both community needs, and technical details, and organizational aspects
[13:26] Morgaine Dinova: JayR: wild west is not a bad analogy. SL#1 was the managed enclave :-)
[13:26] Dizzy Banjo: sure
[13:26] Tao Takashi: lawyers will ensure this ;-)
[13:27] Morgaine Dinova: We need a Soylent Green factory for lawyers intruding on technical discussions. :-)
[13:27] Dizzy Banjo: do you think that the knowledge of this rearchitecting of second life is currently being spread far enough through the community ?
[13:27] Fremont Cunningham waits for Zero's technical meeting and hopes the community Aspects discussion will be taken to another meeting.
[13:27] Tillie Ariantho: haha
[13:27] Rex Cronon: this no longer looks like tecno hour
[13:27] Rex Cronon: techno*
[13:28] JayR Cela: Tao how can laywers or the U.S> federal government ever hope to have control ove an open Grid / It cant and never will happen
[13:28] Dizzy Banjo: ill be quite in a minute :)
[13:28] Dizzy Banjo: quiet*
[13:28] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: suggest you name a technical topic :P
[13:28] Zero Linden: Okay - so , just to finish my peronsal update: I'm speaking at Conference in WV this weekend and early next week - so I won't be here on next Tuesday - I'll be on a plane.
[13:28] Tao Takashi: actually Adam wanted to start on implementing the protocol like tomorrow ;-)
[13:28] Zero Linden: (and they dont' have SL access yet - dang!)
[13:28] Tree Kyomoon: hard to separate technology from community in a digital world
[13:28] Zero Linden: But onward
[13:28] McPhenius Swain: WV? j/k
[13:28] Zero Linden: West Virginia
[13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: you need to take an iphone, a wifi setup and a laptop
[13:28] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear, reminds me of Cory ..... always at presentations :-(
[13:28] Wyn Galbraith got a part time job in the evenings for document QA, "So I'll miss the 3pm meetings at least for this week.
[13:29] McPhenius Swain: (joking about no SL access :)
[13:29] Wyn Galbraith: Zero will we be able to hear that talk?
[13:29] Chase Marellan: Being devil's advocate for a moment, why is the wild west a bad thing if it's in well-defined "areas"?
[13:29] Zero Linden: I have an iPhone - but there isn't WiFi on a plane either... not to mention a lack of an SL hand icon in my iPhone....
[13:29] Zero Linden: Wyn, alas no, it isn't a public conference
[13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: yet... ;-)
[13:29] Tao Takashi: Apple is not that far away ;-)
[13:29] Tao Takashi: did you visit them, too? :)
[13:30] Tao Takashi: btw, you maybe should also send people to some open source conferences to maybe engage people there in this project
[13:30] Tao Takashi: mostly those language specific ones, like Python, Ruby etc. would be good I think
[13:30] Zha Ewry: Zero... I'v noticed in all the notes thus far.. a lack of a "stream of events or service calls" interactoin patterns
[13:30] Morgaine Dinova: Yes, before Google snaps them up for Google MyWorld.
[13:30] Rob Linden: Tao: which specific conferences?
[13:30] Dale Glass: Well, there are text clients for SL now. Something should be possible to run from a PDA
[13:30] Tao Takashi: for Python there's PyCon, EuroPython
[13:30] Tao Takashi: not sure what there is for Ruby
[13:31] Tao Takashi: or other languages
[13:31] Tree Kyomoon: dale that can be done with flex already
[13:31] Tao Takashi: send Donovan, he should know :)
[13:31] Tillie Ariantho: RubyCon? .)
[13:31] Rob Linden: (incidently, there's only so many conferences we can do and still do day jobs....need to choose carefully)
[13:31] Zero Linden: it's this conference I'm speaking at: http://exchange.diamondconsultants.com/events/preview.asp?section=enterprise
[13:31] Zero Linden: ANYHOW
[13:31] Tillie Ariantho: Zha: What do you mean by that? .)
[13:31] Zero Linden: Turning to technical topics
[13:31] Zero Linden: I have one I want to address
[13:31] Proust Villota: hi
[13:31] Zero Linden: since it is causing some amount of consternation
[13:32] Tao Takashi: Rob, I know, same here ;-)
[13:32] Zero Linden: It is the issue of permissions and an open grid
[13:32] Zha Ewry: How two services setp up so stream events.. Such as edge of sim to edge of sim
[13:32] Zha Ewry: *to stream
[13:32] Tao Takashi: well, PyCon and EuroPython will be in 2008 again anyway
[13:32] Tao Takashi: btw, I summarized some of the discussion on the wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/DRM%2C_IP_and_permissions
[13:33] Morgaine Dinova: The Brainstorm page seems quite clear on permissions and the limits of DRM. Ie. OK inside managed grid, no guarantees outside.
[13:34] Tillie Ariantho: Zha: To stream events? scripted events you are talking about?
[13:34] Tree Kyomoon thinks login less region viewing is the elephant in the room
[13:34] Zero Linden: Right - so that page is good, but I think that it may not be as accessible as it coudl be
[13:34] Zero Linden: so
[13:35] Zero Linden: first off, to echo many statements that Cory has said in the past, we are not going to persue DRM solutions
[13:35] Tillie Ariantho: Zha: maybe add something about it on the brainstorming page?
[13:35] Zero Linden: by which we mean, systems that attempt to limit a user's use of the bits once they have been delivered to the user's computer
[13:35] Zha Ewry: I added it
[13:35] Tillie Ariantho: oh
[13:35] Tillie Ariantho: missed it then
[13:36] Morgaine Dinova: Good. Because "Science Fiction DRM" doesn't actually exist :-))) Although the MPAA still seems to think it does :P
[13:36] JayR Cela: well DRM is a bunch of crap / if I want to stream the Temptations or Jackson 5 onto my land / why should I not be able to do that
[13:36] Zero Linden: Such things are both arms races that can't be won, and an anathema to open source systems
[13:36] Tillie Ariantho hums Ben from Jackson 5 again
[13:37] Zha Ewry: Mark it so we can see what's proper use, and detect abuse, and let the courts sort it out (Personal opionion)
[13:37] Tree Kyomoon: copyright had a good run, its time is up
[13:37] Tillie Ariantho: heh
[13:37] Zero Linden: But what we can, and will do, is manage where a user decides to let their bits be copied
[13:37] JayR Cela: i see no reason why this should evan be an issue DRM
[13:38] Zero Linden: JayR - it is because people read "open grid", jump to the conclusion that everyone will have everyone else's bits, and therefore want a system to limit use
[13:38] Tree Kyomoon: world needs to move to service models
[13:38] Zero Linden: So, "DRM!?!" keeps popping up in the discussion
[13:38] JayR Cela: Zero so what you are saying is we could all be hauled into court by the likes of Sony or whatever for streaming music
[13:39] Morgaine Dinova: Yes, copyright is simply out of step with the physical reality of the digital world. The way forward now is, keep producing and selling the new, doesn't matter if the old gets copied. Income for life is no more.
[13:39] Zero Linden: JayR - I am not a lawyer, nor is LL going to indemnify you, nor is it the aim of architecture design to impose a new world order
[13:39] Rex Cronon: u can be sued if u replicate a rl objec in sl. or i am wrong
[13:39] Rex Cronon: ?
[13:39] Zero Linden: For all I know, Sony can serve you, or me, right now.
[13:39] Dizzy Banjo: yes they can
[13:40] JayR Cela: Morgaine / all the more reason to support the local SL musicians profilleating here in SL
[13:40] Chase Marellan: That's easy to say, but why produce anything of a copyright nature if you release it once and never see a penny off it?
[13:40] Zero Linden: BZZZZZP
[13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: er, ALL things written or drawn are of a "copyright nature"
[13:40] Zero Linden: This meeting is not a place to discuss political theory
[13:40] Chase Marellan: sorry
[13:40] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: you can be sues for anything. A sculptor sued an arcade for tying red ribbons around swans, and he won. The world is nuts. Ignore it.
[13:41] Dizzy Banjo: i agree copyright and IP managment shouldnt be a responsibility of a platform.. imho
[13:41] Zero Linden: But I point you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party for a good starting point....
[13:41] Tillie Ariantho: Morgaine: You can do that in the US, maybe.
[13:41] Zero Linden: At least on that line of thought....
[13:41] JayR Cela: Zero can you tell us about tomorrows back end database upgrade
[13:41] Morgaine Dinova: Anyway .. tech stuff
[13:41] Tree Kyomoon: so...loginless region viewing...what about that idea?
[13:41] Tillie Ariantho: Tree: I Like it.
[13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: still needs a presence, Tree. It's just an avatar-less login.
[13:42] Zero Linden: JayR - I don't think it amounts to more than adding some columns to existing tables ... I don't know the details, honestly - but it isn't like we are replacing the machines or some such
[13:42] Tree Kyomoon: no morgain
[13:42] Tree Kyomoon: you are wrong
[13:42] Tree Kyomoon: and I commented to that effect in the wiki
[13:42] JayR Cela: Zero thank you
[13:42] Tree Kyomoon: :)
[13:42] Zero Linden: Now - I've kept poor Zha waiting
[13:42] Tao Takashi: and I thought you are migrating to Oracle or something like that ;-)
[13:42] Zero Linden: Zha - you had something you wanted to ask....
[13:42] Zero Linden: soryy, I lost it in the last volley
[13:42] Zha Ewry: np
[13:43] Zha Ewry: I was looking at the pile of notes and stuff we went throuhg
[13:43] Rex Cronon: btw, i read in one of the blogs that inded it is possible for others to delete your prims.
[13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: It didn't come through on my watchlist. I'll look again. But you still need a presence, or the server doesn't know what objects to send you.
[13:43] Zha Ewry: and noticed lack of a "stream" model
[13:43] Zha Ewry: For things like sims informing other sims about egde space updates
[13:43] Zha Ewry: and was noticing it wasn't in certified-http or any of the patterns we discussed
[13:43] Zha Ewry: So.. was wondering how you're looking at that
[13:43] Zero Linden: Ah - good catch
[13:44] Zero Linden: so we have a system now, that hasn't made it into the public wiki yet
[13:44] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine you are incorrectly defining "presence" but I did address that in the discussion
[13:44] Zero Linden: perhaps because we're not certain of it....
[13:44] Zero Linden: but here it is
[13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I updated your addition to your Desiderata. It sounds good, although can'[t be limited to just edges if we have portals.
[13:44] Zero Linden: There is an event delivery service that both the Sim and Viewer have right now
[13:44] Zha Ewry nods
[13:44] Zha Ewry: Morgaine: true
[13:45] Zha Ewry: So.. I added two lines of thught to the wiki
[13:45] Zha Ewry: One on the basic stream..
[13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: "presence" is merely the reference point w.r.to which the sim (or region domain) decides which objects to send you.
[13:46] Zha Ewry: and two...interaction patterns... sets of interactions of the low level services with interlocking behaviors
[13:46] Wyn Galbraith sighs. "Not my day."
[13:46] Morgaine Dinova: It has to be there even if there is no avatar.
[13:46] Zero Linden: The viewer can invoke a capability and deliver an event - which at present exactly equals a message in the message system: becuase both are a named API point with a set of arguments, which *doesn't* return a result, other than perhaps "received"
[13:46] Zha Ewry nods
[13:46] Zero Linden: The simulator can queue events of the same style back to the viewer
[13:46] Zha Ewry: thus the two patterns
[13:46] Zero Linden: but due to firewalls, can't actually push them there
[13:46] Zero Linden: so the viewer polls for the events
[13:46] Zero Linden: all over HTTP
[13:46] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine, yes that is required, like an ip address to send data to, but it has nothing to do with "logging in" so my comment stands
[13:46] Zero Linden: and before you freak out over the poll (I know I would)
[13:47] JayR Cela: oh i have a corner simm plot / it has been horrible all week / items missing from the house / ending up 600 meters altitude above the simm and still eating into my total prim usage
[13:47] Zero Linden: realize it is what we call a "long poll" - you ask, and if the other side
[13:47] Zero Linden: doesn't have anything, it stalls saying "nothing" for a while incase something does come in
[13:47] Zero Linden: in which case it can ansewr that
[13:47] Zero Linden: right now, the timeout is 30s.
[13:47] Zha Ewry nods
[13:47] Zha Ewry: So.. that is a interaction pattern
[13:48] Zha Ewry: Not a single call.. but a pattern with an expected result
[13:48] Zero Linden: so your viewer is making a request every 30s. if there is no events --- this is rpretty low drain
[13:48] Zha Ewry: We need to start capturing those
[13:48] Zero Linden: So, while the two patterns are different - the semantics of the events are the same
[13:48] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I wote a piece about factoring out that event and message management within the monolithic "viewer", splitting it into a real graphic-only viewer and a separate presence manager process, in a N:1 relationship.
[13:48] Zero Linden: named API, with LLSD args, and no response except "received"
[13:49] Morgaine Dinova: Needs a socket API
[13:49] Zero Linden: Interesting idea
[13:49] Zero Linden: the question becomes - where does the routing occur:
[13:49] Zero Linden: in the sim (different 'viewer apps" register for different events)
[13:49] Zero Linden: or in the users's machine (a coordinator gets the stream to the local computer, and then distributes)
[13:50] Zha Ewry: The architecture can allow for either, if we factor it right
[13:50] Zero Linden: And yes, I know Zha is going to say "BOTH!" :-)
[13:50] Zha Ewry: And then publish the interaction pattern
[13:50] Zero Linden: ha! see!
[13:50] Zha Ewry: that we prefer
[13:50] Zha Ewry: But, I will let you publish an interaction pattern
[13:50] Wyn Galbraith: LOL
[13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: anything complex must be down in the client, except for security handling, because the sim doesn't scale at all, whereas clients scale perfectly, or even better with multicores.
[13:51] Zero Linden: Morgaine - that would be my first inclination
[13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: right NOW the sim can't scale at all...
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: Zha what is a use case for this (so I can catch up)?
[13:51] Zha Ewry: For which?
[13:51] Zha Ewry: The interaction patterns?
[13:51] Tree Kyomoon: the stream stuff yes
[13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Sorry, I mean the sim doesn't scale ***in its current design***. We could certainly make it scale, arbitrarily.
[13:51] Zha Ewry: That's not a use case, but one of the setos things we need to capture
[13:52] Zha Ewry: The use cases... are things like the edge of sim behavior
[13:52] Zha Ewry: A child agent does that, effectively today
[13:52] Zero Linden: but I can see where Zha is going with this - my iPhone wants to be grabbing, say, the friends info, where as the viewer on my omcputer wants the other events at the same time
[13:52] Zha Ewry grins
[13:52] Tree Kyomoon: ah ok thanks
[13:52] Zha Ewry: Well, I will suggest we packaged up several prefered set of interactions.. but factoring it lets us do all of them over time
[13:53] Zero Linden: And it does begin to look like a pub/sub model for events
[13:53] Zha Ewry: Yes.. and if we end up there, that's ok
[13:54] Zha Ewry: But we can figyure out if it's that, or just interaction styles
[13:54] Zero Linden: Whcih, to be honest, I'm a little scared of doing - since all the examples of large scale pub/sub are for very constrained problem spaces
[13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Yep. Make the front-end process on the client just an event mux/demux, and attach viewer, script handlers, etc etc etc to it.
[13:54] Zha Ewry nods
[13:54] Zha Ewry: I am not saying I am fond of the idea of doing MQseries on sims
[13:54] Zha Ewry: Tho... it would probably work.
[13:54] Zero Linden: Remember - and on agent hosts - the example I gave was really agent host events being split between two devices
[13:55] Zero Linden: Mind you - that is an interesting service variable
[13:55] Zero Linden: Does your agent domain allow you to log in and get events from more than one device at a time?
[13:55] Zero Linden: Might be a premium feature, or a feature that differentiates agent domains
[13:56] Zha Ewry nods
[13:56] Zha Ewry: Zero, one thing you will get tired of hearing from me, is this sort of factoring.
[13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Actually, I'd like to hear how the comms route in a multi agent domain scenario.
[13:56] Zha Ewry: You knew it was coming. (BOTH!) and I'll keep chasing it
[13:56] Tao Takashi: the rest here sleeps already ;-)
[13:57] Squirrel Wood snores ;)
[13:57] Tillie Ariantho: not me, tao. carefully listening. :)
[13:57] Tao Takashi: j/k :)
[13:57] JayR Cela: Zero how can you possibly charge a fee for anything except the Avatar account after Open Grid becomes widespread/ at that point the only thing LL owns is our Avatar accounts
[13:57] Fremont Cunningham reads with interest
[13:57] Zha Ewry: Becase if we can do things like the split agents.. we'll get something that's really flexible in ways we need
[13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: busy looking up terms in the background
[13:57] Tillie Ariantho: And I know MQSeries, too. using at at work. .P
[13:57] Jason Swain pokes squirrel to wake her up
[13:57] Tillie Ariantho: it
[13:57] Rex Cronon: not asleep here
[13:57] Morgaine Dinova nicks Squirrel's nuts
[13:57] Chase Marellan: But would LL still own the avatar accounts?
[13:57] Chase Marellan: Well, these, of course, but new ones?
[13:58] Tree Kyomoon busily wiki pedias all these terms
[13:58] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I'm not yet certain becuase we haven't done the protocols yet --- But I imagine that at any given time, only one of your agent domain's will be primary and the one logged into a region
[13:58] Squirrel Wood: wha? who? where? how? why? Errm....
[13:58] Zero Linden: the others would only be consulted when their inventory / friends / groups were queired or used
[13:58] JayR Cela: Chase / that is what I am trying to say / LL will own the avatar account / and thats it
[13:58] Zha Ewry shrugs "The accounts, storing of assets, managing currency..
[13:58] Zha Ewry: managing trust"
[13:58] Zero Linden: THough I imagine that you may have to hav eyour viewer getting friend and IM updates fro all your agent domains
[13:58] Rex Cronon: i wonder though were are all those documents that define the protocols people are talking about
[13:58] Zha Ewry: I'm not sure the opportunities are that constrained
[13:58] Zero Linden: which is wy I don't expect there to be more than a few per person
[13:58] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: that's what I expected, and that's why I was discussing how Slashdotting connected subgrids might be avoided by caching.
[13:59] Wyn Galbraith: Zero, how far in the future are we looking at for servers to become open source if they do?
[13:59] Zero Linden: JayR - I'm pretty sure that LL will have a nice business in land as well...
[13:59] JayR Cela: zero :_)
[13:59] Zero Linden: Our land management and governancy style, while much beaten up, seems pretty darn popular!
[13:59] Tao Takashi: LL will probably also have some consulting business then
[14:00] Wyn Galbraith likes the land and governance styles of LL
[14:00] Zero Linden: Tao - I'm not sure that we'll go the consulting route - it isn't the type of organization that Philip has built
[14:00] Morgaine Dinova: Don't get complacent, Google MyWorld is about to be launched.
[14:00] Rex Cronon: so, everybody here is talking only about use cases?
[14:00] Kooky Jetaime: How popular will it be once other regions that are pro-gambling open up? hehehhe
[14:00] Zha Ewry is begining to look at issues like how they manifest in interaction patterns
[14:00] Tillie Ariantho: me not, I were not invited to the party for sim owners. .P
[14:00] Wyn Galbraith: I'm sure there's a lot of ex-LL and SL residents that can serve as consultants if they want.
[14:01] Zero Linden: Er - if you notice me being complacent, pinch me!
[14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[14:01] Zero Linden: Kooky - plenty popular, I'm sure
[14:01] Zero Linden: Okay - time to wrap up
[14:01] Wyn Galbraith: I think the pro-gambling regions will have the same problem LL had with the feds.
[14:01] Zero Linden: I've a got a general question
[14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: so read my Project_Motivation->Talk .... more scary numbers :-)
[14:01] Tao Takashi: I am not saying that there won't be any consultants out there so LL has to do it ;-)
[14:01] Zero Linden: there are quite a number of venues for interaction
[14:02] Squirrel Wood wraps Zero up in paper. stores him in her nut cache...
[14:02] Morgaine Dinova: LOL Squirrel
[14:02] Zero Linden: and I intend to continue to hold these office hours
[14:02] Rob Linden: fyi: I've started a "Conferences" page to carry on with the conference tangent we started on: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Conferences
[14:02] Jason Swain: lol
[14:02] Zha Ewry nods at Wyn.. and observes some of them may live in non US countries
[14:02] Zha Ewry: TY, Rob, that's useful
[14:02] Zero Linden: But I'm a little over whelmed in approaching both SLDev mailing list and the wiki
[14:03] Zero Linden: While I'm going to promise to be involved in both - If I had to spend all of my day tomorrow on one, which would you choose?
[14:03] Zha Ewry: Wiki!
[14:03] Tree Kyomoon: wiki
[14:03] Wyn Galbraith: If they life in the States at least, though I do think that VW should have a global law. Besides if the IRS could get any money from it they'd ok it for the states I bet.
[14:03] Fremont Cunningham: Wik!
[14:03] Tree Kyomoon: wiki=public and less geeki
[14:03] Tao Takashi: well, if you have more information to publish of course the wiki
[14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: wiki wiht a pointer and summary to the SLDEv
[14:03] Dizzy Banjo: i think it would be good to have a combined office hours - featuring technical staff, more conceptual desiners and commmunity reps
[14:03] Kooky Jetaime: wiki
[14:03] Fremont Cunningham gave up on mailing lists long ago.
[14:03] Wyn Galbraith: Meetings with logs posted.
[14:04] Tillie Ariantho: Yes, Wiki. All the important stuff is going there, and SLDev has lots of chatter about things that are only important for single persons, no the whole lot. :)
[14:04] Rob Linden: wiki, announcing significant new developments on sldev
[14:04] Tree Kyomoon: there are too many portals with duplicate information
[14:04] Wyn Galbraith wonders if she's suppose to herd cats on the SL Dev to see how long it will take to make her crazy.
[14:04] Morgaine Dinova: They're different. A mailing list gives you a running flavour of things in your head. A wiki evolves towards a visible joinly agreed view, collaboratively.
[14:04] Zero Linden: And yes, I'll take it as a to-do to get more office hours on the community input topics
[14:04] Kooky Jetaime: Tree - I agree
[14:04] Rex Cronon: btw zero can u post the transcript for thursday?
[14:04] Saijanai Kuhn looks like a cat himself sometimes
[14:04] Zero Linden: Yes - I'll do taht now, Rex
[14:05] Wyn Galbraith is catlike too sometimes.
[14:05] Rex Cronon: thanks
[14:05] Tao Takashi: some roadmap might be nice to have
[14:05] JayR Cela: Tree I agree with you on the duplicate info / some one needs to be put in charge of organizeing the info
[14:05] Tao Takashi: like what who can do now and what the next steps are
[14:05] Zero Linden: thank you ALL for coming
[14:05] Rob Linden thinks Zero should be delegating that to a resident here ;-)
[14:05] Dizzy Banjo: also .. i think a banner should be posted to inform the entire community of the fundamental changes that are happening to SL.. many people are not aware of this.. and are finding out about it through tiny blogs like mine ?! im not sure why LL arnt communicating this widely via the website
[14:05] Dale Glass votes for sldev
[14:05] Wyn Galbraith: Thanks Zero. Always wonderful.
[14:05] Morgaine Dinova: Here's the roadmap. NOW ............ X ?
[14:05] Zha Ewry: They popsted to the main blog
[14:05] Zero Linden: thnks Rob may be right....
[14:05] Zero Linden: later all....
[14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: I posted a one-liner to some groups, and one group leader spammed me about spamming
[14:05] Wyn Galbraith thinks we got years yet.
[14:05] Tree Kyomoon: tree raises hand
[14:05] Tao Takashi: I just mean the next steps
[14:05] Wyn Galbraith: This platform is such a baby.
[14:05] Tree Kyomoon: to volunteer
[14:05] Zha Ewry: And.. the idea of wiki with links posted to SLdev woudld be lovely
[14:06] Tao Takashi: because right now it's somewhat in the air I think
[14:06] Jason Swain: Thank you Zero
[14:06] Zero Linden: Tree- If I send you the perl formatting script, do you want to take on putting the transcripts up?
[14:06] Zha Ewry: Thanks as always Zero
[14:06] Michi Lumin: thanks Zero, even if i'm just observing for now. (you know: "lurk more".)
[14:06] Tree Kyomoon: yes I will do that
[14:06] Dizzy Banjo: thanks all im not meaing to spoil technical discussions
[14:06] Zero Linden: Cool - I'll e-mail you
[14:06] Zero Linden: later all