User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Dec 23

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  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: okay.. acting adult again
  • [13:00] Whump Linden: don't be alarmed, it's just for the snowball fights later.
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: hola whump
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: y Latif
  • [13:01] Latif Khalifa: heya infinity, whump, sai
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: oh oh... and more peeps are showing up too
  • [13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: behold the power of SPAMM
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: welcome everyone to what i was sort of expecting to be a slow office hour
  • [13:01] Snowball Thrower: whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
  • [13:01] Snowball Thrower: whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: but yes... the SPAM hath powre
  • [13:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: hola rex
  • [13:02] Stamo Stuer: Hey All
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: hmm... wonder if zha's gonna make it
  • [13:02] Latif Khalifa: what sort of effect does a snowball have on whum? will his steam engine shut down? :)
  • [13:02] Rex Cronon: hiii...
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: or if she's whipping up a textual description of the X.509 stuff from earlier
  • [13:02] Rex Cronon: is zha still stuck at the car shop:)
  • [13:02] Whump Linden: Latif, it'll just melt off.
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: ugh
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: car? she has a car? i though she live in the Big City(tm)
  • [13:03] Whump Linden: double ugh, car stuff
  • [13:03] Rex Cronon: i ment repair center, whatever is called:)
  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: tink she made it abck home left an IRC message for her
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: okay.. let's collect agenda items
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: anyone have an agenda item?
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: hmmm...
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: wondering how your schedule looks for next year?
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: hats. people are not wearing enough hats.
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: me too
  • [13:05] Object: calls: now being taken by channel 1
  • [13:05] clock second: hand: Hello, Avatar!
  • [13:05] Turtle: Hello,: Avatar!
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: are you talking about me, or the open initiatives team or linden in general?
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: yes, yes and yes
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: zha online gasp
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: yay
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: turtle has a fun hat
  • [13:06] Stamo Stuer: i can give a copy of my Santa hat if anyone wants one
  • [13:06] [[User:emoteur [scriptemoteur]|emoteur [scriptemoteur]]]: Script run-time error
  • [13:06] [[User:emoteur [scriptemoteur]|emoteur [scriptemoteur]]]: Stack-Heap Collision
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: well... for me.. january 2nd... 5:30AM... i wake up
  • [13:06] Rex Cronon: whos emoter is buged?
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: 5:32AM.. i have coffee
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: the horror
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: 5:33AM i get backin bed
  • [13:07] Zha Ewry: Me hops in for 10 minutes or less
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: but seriously... schedules are being worked out currently
  • [13:07] Zha Ewry: and.. I may be on SL on the next 3 days.. then..
  • [13:08] Zha Ewry: I am totally off grid Sunday-New Years Eve
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: were i to make any grand pronouncements, they would probably be wrong
  • [13:08] Zha Ewry: and mostl off grid until the 5th.
  • [13:08] Zha Ewry: I will see very urgent e-mail and nothing else until the 1st,.
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: i'm on next monday, tuesday and the following firiday
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: if anyone cares
  • [13:09] Zha Ewry: But.. I do have the UML modeling tools on the laptop ;-)
  • [13:09] Zha Ewry: and a complete build of OpenSim
  • [13:09] Whump Linden: I'll be OOO until the 5th, jumping on briefly to check that any rolls to Aditi don't break the Agent Domain.
  • [13:09] robomind Maximus: tried opensim the other day...just the basics
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: mmm.. uml
  • [13:09] Zha Ewry: That said, my plans on weekj include nothing more than two blog posts
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: i was recently "counseled" by zero on my "fast and loose" use of UML
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: i'll be bugging Marty Fowler over the weekend
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: to do a UML study group
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: I keep telling you that you have to be gentle to the poor links
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: or something
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: well... Zero was very nice in his counceling
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: which is why i didn't say "chided"
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: If anyone wants to do random home work
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: look at:
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: X.509
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: but the use of UML could make some worry we were drifting towards something like a model driven architecture
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: OSCP
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: OCSP
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: or wait
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: did i get that wrong?
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: and how we can use them with HTTPS and lightwirgh certs to get a nice basic auth capabiity for componewnts
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: online cert status protocol
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: or online cert status checking protocol
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: OMG!!! Zero's Here!!! DUCK!
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: ack
  • [13:11] Latif Khalifa: hey zero, so he's alive indeed :P
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: yay!
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: smells coffeee!
  • [13:11] Goldie Katsu: quacks
  • [13:11] Latif Khalifa: we heard rumors :P
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: stands relieved
  • [13:12] Rex Cronon: hello zero
  • [13:12] Zha Ewry: sits in a beanbag chair, delieved
  • [13:12] Zha Ewry: a*rleieved
  • [13:12] Zha Ewry: Hello Zero!
  • [13:12] Goldie Katsu: Good to see you
  • [13:12] Zero Linden: I'm back all!
  • [13:12] Zero Linden: WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
  • [13:12] Latif Khalifa: lol
  • [13:12] Zha Ewry: ponders how to make 40 minutes appear on her RL schedule
  • [13:12] Zero Linden: /is doing happy dances
  • [13:12] Stamo Stuer: lol
  • [13:13] Zero Linden: there we go
  • [13:13] Latif Khalifa: they're finally closing gitmo? :P
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: oh! i was gonna let you have the big chair
  • [13:13] Rex Cronon: looks likze zero finally got out of the rl meetings:)
  • [13:13] Latif Khalifa: they let zero out haha
  • [13:13] Zero Linden: I did! I just started talking so much technical gibberish they finally forced me out
  • [13:13] Zero Linden: SO
  • [13:13] Goldie Katsu: MEGO worked!
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: On a serious note
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: I just posted a message to SLDev and OpenGrid lists
  • [13:14] Zha Ewry: reads and smiles
  • [13:14] Zha Ewry: Well, looky that
  • [13:15] Goldie Katsu: thinks she needs to find that second list and get on it
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: yay
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: reads, breathes sigh of relief
  • [13:15] Zha Ewry: is very impressed this dance fits under Zero's roof
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: I've tried to keep your office hour chat logs up tod date zero
  • [13:16] Zero Linden: So there - many of us have been pushing on the strategy process hard to get the OGP parts of it nailed down
  • [13:16] Stamo Stuer: Zero you sent it on the OpenGrid mailing list?
  • [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: OPenGrid, and pyogp even
  • [13:17] Stamo Stuer: I didnt get anything hmmm
  • [13:17] Saijanai Kuhn: I didn't get it n sldev though
  • [13:17] Zero Linden: hmmm.... is OpenGrid moderated?
  • [13:17] Latif Khalifa: so ogp remains part of LL's strategy?
  • [13:17] Zero Linden: yes, Latif, absolutely
  • [13:17] Whump Linden: Zero, I don't believe so.
  • [13:17] Whump Linden: Let me check.
  • [13:17] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [13:17] Zha Ewry: Should not be
  • [13:17] Zha Ewry: Except first post?
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: Whump - I may not be a member ...
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: Oh - do you all want me to cut-n-paste the e-mail here?
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: just to clarify... "OGP remains linden strategy", "Opengrid list may not be moderated"
  • [13:18] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [13:18] Zha Ewry: Right
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: well... part of linden's strategy
  • [13:18] Zha Ewry: the mailing list, is I think memebrs, and first post moderated style
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: zha got it on SLDEV and I got it on opengrid and pyogpl. just holiday goodness with email delivery I guess
  • [13:19] Zha Ewry: Coolio
  • [13:19] Zha Ewry: I'll see it on others, on other mail IDs soon
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: So - I thought it was very important to get out a statement of where Linden was in the process before the end of the year
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: And - I think I just eeked it under the wire!
  • [13:20] Latif Khalifa: that would be excellent idea zero
  • [13:20] Goldie Katsu: checks her calendar and nods in agreement
  • [13:20] Whump Linden: Zero, you're on the list.
  • [13:20] Zero Linden: so - while we wait for mail to be delivered all around.....
  • [13:20] Whump Linden: and the list is open
  • [13:20] Zero Linden: thanks - whump
  • [13:21] Zha Ewry: That's a very nice clear statement
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: Thanks- I had help!
  • [13:21] Zha Ewry: Unless there are other shockign dveleopments, I left 10 minutes ago ;-)
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: heh
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: well....
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: https://blog.startcom.org/?p=145
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: anyone see that? some guy got a valid SSL cert for mozilla.com for his personal IP
  • [13:22] Whump Linden: Zha, we'll leave it to you to resolve any paradoxes w.r.t. your causality violation.
  • [13:22] Zero Linden: signed through a common root cert
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: yay!
  • [13:23] Zha Ewry: Ouchie Ouchy Oochy
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: I noticed that my OS's default root cert bundle has 147 (!) root certs in it
  • [13:23] Zha Ewry: That also appears slashdotted
  • [13:23] PouletFritesMayO Boucher: hi
  • [13:23] Zha Ewry: and at least Chrome is whinging about its cert
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: oh ossm
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: So the whole of web server SSL is as weak as the weakest of any of those companies or their resellers....
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: and at least one of them is apparently very very weak
  • [13:24] Latif Khalifa: ssl certs are easy to get these days... godaddy basically lets you fill in a form and say "i sweaa this is mine" :P
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: rushes out to get *.agni.secondlife.com issued to her box
  • [13:24] Zha Ewry: / right
  • [13:24] Zha Ewry: The trusted path to root is a big deal
  • [13:24] Zha Ewry: Keep it short
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: right.. and for what it's worth.. we should mention that any X.509 auth subsystem we implement for LL would not use that root
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: well - here it was very short -- the root authority in question let their resellers issue certs against the root's own cert !
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: so - while the digital chain was short, the chain of authority was a bit longer
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: of course, the bundles have also gotten very very wide
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: I wouldn't want to disparage any of the organizations listed in my computers root cert bundle...
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: ...but there are many in there that don't look like ones I would trust to hand out SSL certs
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: well... i will.. i used to work for one or two of them
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: or at least, expect to have the level of diligence required
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: well - those I should diable immediatly, Infinity!
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: nods that's the kller
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: *disable
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: i did notice that the plethora of DoD certs has been pared down a bit
  • [13:27] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: BTW.. if you own a blackberry.. you might want to check for .gov and .mil certs
  • [13:27] Zha Ewry: Thsi also speaks to why revocatoin is so important
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: on a Mac, this list is easy to find: run Keychain Access
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: just for giggles
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: select System Roots in the left hand list
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: there are some gems in there
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: and a real certification practice (and the related Certification Practice Statement)
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: and why OCSP is on our reaig list
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: and Certificate Policy
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: *reading
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: Whaty's sort of scary, is that to do this at all right, even the simple case, requires paying a *LOT* of attention
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: yes - and while there are systems for managing it even in the face of imperfect implementation (revocation lists and protocols, for example)
  • [13:29] Zha Ewry: I think I shared this with Infinity recently.. The way i describe myself a sa security person is, "I know enough to go get the serious paranoids when i need them"
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: getting systems to actually do all the checking and management is difficult and often isn't done
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: and.. it's probably worth saying... this is not a break in X.509 or the way TLS or even HTTPS uses X.509, but in misplaced trust in one of the issuers by Apple, Mozilla (and do we know if IE is affected as well?)
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: I wonder how often one's browser actually checks the revocation lists....
  • [13:30] Zha Ewry: right, its as much a social hack as a techno one
  • [13:30] Infinity Linden: depends.
  • [13:30] Zha Ewry: which is the real issue with 90% of cert management
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: Correct ---
  • [13:30] Squirrel Wood: definitely not often enough
  • [13:30] Zha Ewry: do you trust the people issuign certs to do the social side
  • [13:30] Infinity Linden: some check every hour if the right collection of options are enabled
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: aye, there's the rub: "the right collection of options..."
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: try getting curl to do it.... I dare ya!
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: fwiw.. the day we got HTTPS working on the Treo... Jeff Hawkins wanted to show it off to one of our boardmembers
  • [13:31] Zha Ewry: OK, I am gong to revoke my own temporal cert for this half hour, and head out. I look forward to a cogent and compelling strategy fdocument.
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: managing certs is a large amount of state .... so we can execute this nice stateless protocol!
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: turns out we looked at amazon.com on the one day they were using an expired cert
  • [13:32] Whump Linden: a naive question: but is part of the problem the intertwingling of "I want secure communication" with "I want to trust the identity of who I am talking to"?
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: our board member made the pronouncement that he wanted all messages related to bad certs removed from the product
  • [13:32] Zha Ewry: Have as wondrous holiday as possible people..
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: later Zha - nice to see you here!
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: (fortunately... we were able to convince him that was a bad idea)
  • [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: laters zha
  • [13:32] Whump Linden: Happy Holidays, Zha.
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: cheers zha
  • [13:32] Zha Ewry: Glad to be here to see that. I look forward to sagacious stratgems
  • [13:32] Zha Ewry: and X.509 code
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: Well, Whump - sort of, yes --- and no
  • [13:32] Rex Cronon: u2 zha
  • [13:32] Latif Khalifa: Whump, I was also always annoyed that https intertvined the two
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: you can easily have a secue comms. channel... the only question then is -- who are you having it with
  • [13:33] Zha Ewry: I think we're lokign sat X.509 most for component level authenticatoin which is less painful
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: so - technically, they are separate issues, but really one isn't useful without answering the other
  • [13:33] Zha Ewry: (which is why you need certs and the trust chasin)
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: wonders if she can tp at the top ofd the spin
  • [13:34] Latif Khalifa: well ssh seems to be doing well wthout attempting to verify who you're talking to ;)
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: ssh has numerous issues with respect to manageability
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: and remember... for many features, ssh is more of a family of related implementations and not a "protocol"
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: though there are certainly defined open protocols and standard key formats defined
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: actually, Latif - it does - the first time you connect - it assumes you've got the right party.... after that, it verifes the key against the last time, and if they are different, it yells about a man-in-the-middle attack and won't connect
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: also the first time, it asks you verify the key via some other route
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: right
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: OpenSim irc: SachaMagne: does it means we will need an official certif to connect to sl ?
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: no comment
  • [13:37] Latif Khalifa: client cert you mean?
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure, think he would mean AD cert
  • [13:37] Latif Khalifa: that would be unmanagable :P
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: seriously though.. i think we've publicly announced we won't allow asset transfers to regions operated by organizations who have not explicitly agreed to honor permissions metadata
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: no.. issuing client certs to OpenSim implementations would not be unmanageable
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: so... many... negatives.....
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: we're not talking about issuing a client cert to every agent who wants to login
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: simply to issue a client cert to every region domain that wants to be interoperable with another region domain
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: (if i understand Zha's proposal properly)
  • [13:39] Latif Khalifa: if you go down the route of requiring client certs for region operators, you have a political problem of who gets to be CA :P
  • [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: so this is orhoganal to how much trust is placed on a given domain...?
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: zha also mentioned something about portable distributed authenticators that _could_ authenticate agents registered by remote agent domains.. but that wouldn'd have to be a client cert
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: Latif.. i suspect you have an idea for who should be that CA
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: Latif - you do -- or you do more of the SSH style model --- people declare themselves as CAs and it reallly matters who you get to trust you being one
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: of course, then people have the icky situation of having to get multiple certs from multiple CAsss
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: arg... the whole thing is imperfect!
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: well... perfect security usually means unplugging your machine from the network
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: don't tempt me, Infinity!
  • [13:41] Latif Khalifa: "air gap security" :P
  • [13:41] Stamo Stuer: lol
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero we were talking about using a project X type 3D clould browser to show search criteria in the metavers, specifically the closer a grid/sim was to the window, the higher the trust (fewer trust connections with your current grid)
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: also.. this is less about security and more about trust
  • [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: used to wor with the USAF. We did a cold boot of hte system with a secure OS casset that had no comprehension of external connections
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: and if you want to simplify your trust model, you wind up with the comodo problem... make it too complicated you get something unusable
  • [13:43] Zero Linden: Saijanai - the hard part of all that is getting humans to understand it.... us security nerds have a hard enough time with it!
  • [13:43] Latif Khalifa: i am a little bit confused about overall architecture of OGP in the future. does client (viewer) only talk to a sim as it is now, or will it be making independent connections to AD and RD?
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: mmm... remembers ConvexOS C2
  • [13:43] Zero Linden: calls "Sweet spot.... oh sweeeeeeet spot.... where are you?"
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: @Latif... i think you may find OGP not talking about that issue
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: Latif - later - one connection to your avatar's AD, one connection to the region you are in
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: but leaving it as an implementation issue
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: in addition, occasional connections to other avatar's ADs and neighboring regions
  • [13:45] Infinity Linden: but yes... you will have at least one relationship with one AD and one relationship with on RD and there's an assumption that the AD and RD have a relationship
  • [13:45] Whump Linden: / hey Dahila
  • [13:45] PouletFritesMayO Boucher: hud airport
  • [13:45] Stamo Stuer: hey dahlia
  • [13:45] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
  • [13:46] Latif Khalifa: i don't understand how this question is implementation detail
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: and this kinda touches on one of my issues with OpenID and OAuth. they assume that auth grantors and id grantors are not distinct
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: which is what we will likely require
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: if you want to connect to multiple ADs.. you should do this
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: advocates custom server options like faux P2P conections for music collboration between clients..
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: there's nothing in the spec that prevents this from happening
  • [13:48] Latif Khalifa: if am implementing a client, and have a task "send IM to sai" i need to be able to look up in the spec how do i make this happen. Ie. something like "send message X to AD" or something like that
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: in a multi AD world, how would you do this?
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: latif - right - the probable method for that will be something like: talk to the AD for sai, ask for a cap to send sai an IM, invoke that cap, sending the message
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: you would need to know, based on the agent you wish to communicate with, what machine is the peer endpoint for the IM protocol
  • [13:49] Latif Khalifa: i need OGP spec to tell me that. I would imagine that I would send a msg to my AD and trust it with the delivery
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: how do you know who sai's AD is?
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: how do you know the AD for sai? when you find out about sai (friend, calling card, seeing them in person) the AD info comes with the calling card and profile info
  • [13:50] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Amber Linden: SL Volunteering
  • http://slurl.com/secondlife/Portage/14/154/98 (Starts in 10 minutes)
  • [13:50] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Prospero Linden: Server issues triage (on Preview Grid, Morris 197,251,35)
  • Preview Grid (Aditi) (Starts in 10 minutes)
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: i think we're not sure how this is going to work in the glorious future.. but in the near term we're thinking we should just get the protocol working with one AD
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: Latif - it isn't clear that we'd need to route the IM through your own AD, thought that would make some things easier
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: well, once Zha's AD goes online, you'll have multiple copies to worry about anyway
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: and there have been multiple recommendations for how to determine AD from Agent
  • [13:51] Latif Khalifa: yeah, but that needs to be in the spec. i am trying to understand how it could be "implementation detail" as infinity suggests
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: (for one, the AD could have all the security checks and they, as a service, are more likely to keep it up to date than your viewer codebase)
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: I think Infinity was either misunderstanding you,
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: finding out which AD to talk to doesn't hvae to be in the same spec as the "how to do IM"
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: or suggesting in an amusing way that we haven't designed that particular protocol yet
  • [13:51] Latif Khalifa: well ok, now we're talking about 20 specs lol
  • [13:52] Latif Khalifa: is missing overall OGP architecture chart
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: and i think what i was saying is... we have mildly more agreement on how IM should be packaged and sent to "the" AD than we do trying to figure out which AD to send it to
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: Latif - looking at the very large range of things it takes to make a virtual world come about, there will very likely be on the order of 20 interlocking specs
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: murmers... "heck... someone noticed."
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: seriously though... taking notes... diagram for the overall arch is a good idea
  • [13:53] Whump Linden: realizes he lost something at the laundry...
  • [13:53] Latif Khalifa: yeah, with only the big things, AD, RD, clients, etc
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: and also... Latif.. it's entirely possible we might try several solutions to the problem before converging on "the" solution
  • [13:53] Latif Khalifa: who talks to whom
  • [13:53] Latif Khalifa: i know now, sim is grand proxy to all things to viewer
  • [13:54] Latif Khalifa: was wondering if the new archictectire will involve the viewer making many many more connectios
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: I imagine it will, Latif
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: but browsers have shown that that isn't quite a big deal
  • [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: a few, hopefully
  • [13:54] Latif Khalifa: i see no reason why one could not imagine say asset server being contacted directly by the viewer for instance
  • [13:55] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Amber Linden: SL Volunteering
  • http://slurl.com/secondlife/Portage/14/154/98 (Starts in 5 minutes)
  • [13:55] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Prospero Linden: Server issues triage (on Preview Grid, Morris 197,251,35)
  • Preview Grid (Aditi) (Starts in 5 minutes)
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: and it is better to put the authority for each service in the "right" place, than force them all to be proxied by one (the region) ---
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: now all we have to do is decide which ones are "right"...
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: right... and it should be possible for an AD to reference an asset in a completely different administrative domain, assuming we can come up with a permissions regime agreeable to everyone for this purpose
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: Latif -- the general tenor of the spec has been to, where possible, not hard code things like that -- for example, with assets, rather than having the spec say where the viewer goes to get the assets
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: instead, when the viewer finds out about the assets it needs (say from the textures the region is telling it are on the objects it sees), then
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: buried deep in some of the X/Windows lore is the saying "describe mechanism, not policy"
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: those references come in the way of caps.... URLs.... so the viewer just invokes the cap (contacts the URL0
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: so in the same way that a HTTP server operator can decide how to handle certain types of protocol (like DELETEs and even HEADs)
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: and doesn't know, or care, if it is going at the asset cloud directly, through a proxy, via the region itself, or the RD cache, etc....
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: it's likely that ADs, RDs and client applications will have a fair amount of latitude in how different services are provisioned
  • [13:58] Dahlia Trimble: we don't even know if opensim assets are directly compatible with assets on LL's servers
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: so we follow this very RESTian model: When a resource refers to other resources, it does so via URL - so that the side providing the resources has the maximum flexibilty in how to lay them out
  • [13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero (not that I understand teh question I'm askign) where does HyperGrid fit in with this?
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: Dahlia - we will, of course, have to have both common, base line formats, and content negotiation for assets
  • [13:59] Latif Khalifa: but the client still need to know the protocol for fetching those resources
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: fortunately, those things are that hard and can be largely based on exsiting standards and work
  • [14:00] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Amber Linden: SL Volunteering
  • http://slurl.com/secondlife/Portage/14/154/98 (Starts now)
  • [14:00] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Prospero Linden: Server issues triage (on Preview Grid, Morris 197,251,35)
  • Preview Grid (Aditi) (Starts now)
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: Sai - I have only read a very cursory overview of HyperGrid --
  • [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: I probably skimmed that same thing
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: to me it looks like a different construction of how identity, accounts, and administration will be laid out on a virtual world
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: is turning into a pumpkin
  • [14:00] Whump Linden: I have to run.
  • [14:00] Whump Linden: Happy Holidays to you all!
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: <- has some work to finish before whump kills me
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: cheers all
  • [14:00] Tylor Ferraris: oh no they're tunring into pris!
  • [14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: You 2 Infinity
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: Latif - the protocol is part of the URL: http: or https:
  • [14:01] Tylor Ferraris: pris = prims
  • [14:01] Stamo Stuer: Happy Holidays whump see ya
  • [14:01] Dahlia Trimble: pumpkin time! :)
  • [14:01] Dahlia Trimble: bye whump :)
  • [14:01] Rex Cronon: bye whump, same 2 u
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: was thinking of Pris in Blade Runner
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: So - before we windup
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: will anybody be here next week? the 30th?
  • [14:03] Latif Khalifa: i will be here
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: or shall we just re-convien on the 6th in the new year?
  • [14:03] Stamo Stuer: Will try to be
  • [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero, not strictly an OGP matter, but trying to figure out how it would work brings out interesting protocol object model questions: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Enus_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_December_19
  • [14:03] PouletFritesMayO Boucher: i
  • [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: I have no life, so I will be here
  • [14:04] Zero Linden: Sai - I admit -- I bought a UML 2.0 book from O'Reilly - my vacation reading!
  • [14:04] Rex Cronon: if people know that u will be here zero, they might come too
  • [14:04] Zero Linden: (along with Real World Haskell -- excellent book!)
  • [14:05] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Amber Linden: SL Volunteering
  • http://slurl.com/secondlife/Portage/14/154/98 (Started 5 minutes ago)
  • [14:05] GG Office: Hours HUD v1.5: 2:00 PM: Prospero Linden: Server issues triage (on Preview Grid, Morris 197,251,35)
  • Preview Grid (Aditi) (Started 5 minutes ago)
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: okay - I'll be here then - but I expect it to be ... thin!
  • [14:05] Latif Khalifa: hehe
  • [14:05] Goldie Katsu: likely
  • [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: heh. You'd be srprised how few have a real life in Second LIfe
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: okay all - I've got to run
  • [14:05] Goldie Katsu: Though I'm likely to be here.
  • [14:05] Zero Linden: thank you all for coming.
  • [14:05] Rex Cronon: bye zero
  • [14:05] Dahlia Trimble: has errands... bye all, happy holidays! :D
  • [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: Thanks for dropping in zero, and read that trasncript or at least browse it.
  • [14:05] PouletFritesMayO Boucher: bye 0
  • [14:05] Goldie Katsu: Good to see you
  • [14:05] Saijanai Kuhn: please
  • [14:05] Latif Khalifa: thank you zero
  • [14:06] Rex Cronon: yes. hpppy holidays:)
  • [14:06] Rex Cronon: to all:)
  • [14:06] Stamo Stuer: bye
  • [14:06] Stamo Stuer: Happy Holidays
  • [14:06] Rex Cronon: bye
  • [14:06] Goldie Katsu: Happy holidays all
  • [14:06] Latif Khalifa: thanks to you all too :)
  • [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: happy holidays all
  • [14:07] PouletFritesMayO Boucher: happy haolidays and bye