User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 May 29
- [8:32] Tree Kyomoon: has the new release candidate which doesnt seem to be
crashing after 10 minutes of SL
- [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Tara5 Oh (14m)
- [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Cel Edman (1m)
- [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Rex Cronon (19m)
- [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Ivy Farber (19m)
- [8:32] Arawn Spitteler: Dolf, Ellie, Byte & Bell, and the law firm grows
larger, as we type.
- [8:32] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Knildrig Aabye (3m)
- [8:33] Morgaine Dinova: How goes Sai? Good transcript from last Tuesday, pity I
- [8:33] Tree Kyomoon: /I might actually be able to use my own transcript for once!
- [8:33] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: SweetCheeks555 Magic (17m)
- [8:33] Tara5 Oh: Hi everyone - hi dolf!
- [8:33] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Rex
- [8:33] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Harleen Gretzky (4m)
- [8:33] Knildrig Aabye: hi
- [8:33] Rex Cronon: hi morgaine
- [8:33] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tara
- [8:33] Saijanai Kuhn: I was kinda panting by the time I finished. I spammed two
non-techie groups and got 10 new members who didn't even know what AWG was, so it was an intro to AWG
- [8:33] Tree Kyomoon: /hey byte string...awesome handle!
- [8:33] Rex Cronon: hi tara5
- [8:33] Tara5 Oh: Hi Mogaine
- [8:33] Tara5 Oh: rex
- [8:34] Aki Shichiroji: Greetings all.
- [8:34] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
- [8:34] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Ivy Farber (11m)
- [8:34] Tara5 Oh: everybody!
- [8:34] Rex Cronon: hi
- [8:34] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Knil, Aki
- [8:34] Byte String: Thanks :) Hey everyone
- [8:34] Rex Cronon: is there bit string too:)
- [8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: BTW, Enus got the first part of login working in Python,
but I can't get it to go past the stage of getting the seed cap from the SIM, so its still not quite there
- [8:35] Byte String: :) Yeah there is , I tryed that name before byte :D
- [8:35] Saijanai Kuhn: (new login)
- [8:35] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: sounds like you're close though :-)
- [8:36] Saijanai Kuhn: well, Enus is. I won't be able to do anything until the
seed cap returns. Then we can add in my UDP handling code
- [8:36] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Tao Takashi (10m)
- [8:36] Tao Takashi: Hi
- [8:36] Mircea Lobo: hello :)
- [8:36] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Tao
- [8:36] Rex Cronon: hi tao
- [8:37] Zero Linden: hello hello hello
- [8:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Mircea Lobo (6m)
- [8:37] Zero Linden: I made it
- [8:37] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning Zero :-)
- [8:37] Harleen Gretzky: Hi Zero
- [8:37] Rex Cronon: hello zero
- [8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Tao did Enus get ahold of you?
- [8:37] Tao Takashi: Hi Zero
- [8:37] Zero Linden: (train to SF this morning)
- [8:37] BlueWall Slade: good morning
- [8:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Laurent Bechir (5m)
- [8:37] Saijanai Kuhn: Good Morning Teacher
- [8:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Mircea Lobo (5m)
- [8:37] Tara5 Oh: good mornin zero!
- [8:37] Morgaine Dinova: Ethiopian dress, Zero?
- [8:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Leviathan Akami (6m), BlueWall
- [8:37] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Harleen Gretzky (10m)
- [8:37] Cel Edman: Hello all people
- [8:37] Zero Linden: Why, yes
- [8:37] Tao Takashi: Sai: No, but I also wasn't really around as I did a training on
monday and today and was at the Metaverse08 inbetween (promoting OGP to Lindens ;-) )
- [8:37] Mircea Lobo: really needs to make a callender alarm for these meetings
- [8:37] Zero Linden: I was invited to a toga party - and this seemed to fit my image
- [8:38] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, lucky guess then, I'm not much up on cultural
- [8:38] Tao Takashi: what I notice is that Linden's mention the IBM firewall project
but not the OGP
- [8:38] Tao Takashi: and I wonder why ;-)
- [8:38] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Mircea Lobo (5m), Zero Linden
- [8:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: (Sleep Mode) AV Scanner range reduced to 20 meters,
scanning every 10 seconds.
- [8:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: (Sleep Mode) AV chat range notification is now OFF.
- [8:39] MystiTool HUD: 1.0.23: (Sleep Mode) All non-essential features have been
- [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: on the Japanese VW 2008?
- [8:39] Zero Linden: Tao - because to the public, there isn't much to make a press
release about yet
- [8:39] Zero Linden: not because we are in anyway not behind it... if that is what
you are wondering?
- [8:39] Tao Takashi: but it would still be nice to tell people about this project,
maybe somebody wants to join
- [8:39] Morgaine Dinova: Agenda items ....
- [8:39] Zero Linden: Ah
- [8:39] Tao Takashi: I mean there is not much regarding the firewall project either
- [8:39] Zero Linden: well, today we have a special agenda
- [8:39] Saijanai Kuhn: well, OGP is barely to the stage of getting the first login
protocol to work.
- [8:39] Rex Cronon: just crashed:(
- [8:40] Zero Linden: Samuel Linden - and Callum Linden too, I think -
- [8:40] Tao Takashi: better than nothing :)
- [8:40] Zero Linden: are coming to talk about future directions for Media
- [8:40] Tao Takashi: very good :)
- [8:40] Tara5 Oh: today?
- [8:40] Morgaine Dinova: Cool!
- [8:40] BlueWall Slade: very good
- [8:40] Tao Takashi: I was on a panel about SL and media ;-)
- [8:40] Zero Linden: Samuel said he'd be here at 8:45
- [8:40] Zero Linden: so - a few minutes of chit-chat!
- [8:40] Tao Takashi: but it was more about this journalistic media
- [8:41] Tao Takashi: apparently I was misplaced there
- [8:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: here's a small chit-chat item, stemming from
reading the Tues transcript:: Since you said TP is heading towards becoming a single parametrised action
that covers region crossing as well, could we also make "Pls send me objects for cache prefill" a generic
parametrised request as well, so that it is not restricted to adjacent regions only? If it could be
requested from any arbitrary region, then we'd be able to prefill our caches for TP without black screen,
and we'd be able to have seamless portal objects as well.
- [8:42] Zha Ewry: perches, and turns back to sorting out openSim code
- [8:42] Zero Linden: Morgaine- I don't think that is restricted even currently -
once you can establish a connection (read: child camera) with a region, you can get stuff....
- [8:42] Zero Linden: So - I think, in advance of the TP, you could pre-fectch
- [8:42] Tara5 Oh: why is zha coding in a meeting?
- [8:42] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: but I mean, at arbitrary distances, prior to TP
- [8:43] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I think so long as the region itself doesn't object
- [8:43] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
- [8:43] Zero Linden: Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd
- [8:43] Zero Linden: Here's Samuel !
- [8:43] Samuel Linden: Hi all
- [8:43] Zero Linden: Welcome, Samuel -
- [8:43] Morgaine Dinova: 'Morning Samuel!
- [8:43] Zha Ewry: As long as the trust model lets you get a child camera in .. why not?
- [8:43] BlueWall Slade: hello!
- [8:43] Mircea Lobo: Hello
- [8:43] Samuel Linden: Callum should be joining us as well
- [8:43] Rex Cronon: hi samuel
- [8:43] Byte String: Hi Samuel
- [8:43] Tao Takashi: Hi Samuel!
- [8:43] Zha Ewry: Moring Smauel
- [8:44] Zha Ewry: greets as many people as possible with her customary typos
- [8:44] Samuel Linden: I am on a wifi connection so bear with any slowness please
- [8:44] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: I didtn see you make any tyops
- [8:44] Samuel Linden: also no voice, though zero mentioned y'all don't use voice
for this meeting
- [8:45] Zero Linden: Samuel - why don't you start us off with the current lay-of-
the-land for Media - and the approximate directions you are looking at for the future
- [8:45] Zero Linden: Oh
- [8:45] Zero Linden: wiat
- [8:45] Emanuele Hax: Hello
- [8:45] Samuel Linden: waits
- [8:45] Samuel Linden: wiats even
- [8:45] Tao Takashi: waits, too
- [8:45] Morgaine Dinova: wiats as well
- [8:45] Rex Cronon: hi
- [8:45] Zero Linden: Everyone: Welcome to my office hourse - speical addition on
Media with Samuel Linden (and perhaps other guest Lindens)
- [8:46] Zero Linden: As always, the transcript is posted to the wiki afterward -
speak freely and speak in public
- [8:46] Zero Linden: Lastly, just a reminder - at these meetings
- [8:46] Zero Linden: Lindens often come to discuss future architetural directions
and ideas --
- [8:46] Tao Takashi: and we expect them to be live tomorrow ;-)
- [8:46] Quinn Houston: /so on
- [8:46] Zero Linden: we do this have community involvement in our work and help make
- [8:47] Samuel Linden: begins furiously coding
- [8:47] Saijanai Kuhn: and bug free the day before they're coded
- [8:47] Zha Ewry: snorts and watches her OpenSim be oddly offended at a fake caps
- [8:47] Tao Takashi: "we just forgot to release it"
- [8:47] Zero Linden: in exchange afford us the kindness of remembering that we are
being open about an uncertain future --
- [8:47] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
- [8:47] Zero Linden: or in other words: "Things may change!"
- [8:47] Zero Linden: okay
- [8:47] Samuel Linden: one sec please
- [8:47] Zero Linden: Take it away, Samuel
- [8:48] Tao Takashi: you mean, when everybody expects Havok 4 not to come anymore
things change and it appears? ;-)
- [8:48] Samuel Linden: ok, sorry about that
- [8:48] Samuel Linden: and I appear to be timing out
- [8:48] Saijanai Kuhn: Shameless plug IM me for invites:
- [8:49] Morgaine Dinova: If things weren't subject to total change, I'd go
somewhere else that wasn't stagnating ;-) Change is good
- [8:49] Samuel Linden: my chat is not showing up
- [8:49] Samuel Linden: ok, there it is
- [8:49] Mircea Lobo: Change is good to a point I guess... and not all of it too fast
- [8:49] Quinn Houston: I see your chat Samuel :)
- [8:49] Samuel Linden: so I am here to discuss The Media Project
- [8:49] Rex Cronon: i see it too
- [8:49] Samuel Linden: which, for those of you who don't know, is tasked with
bringing full and rich media support to second life
- [8:49] Emanuele Hax: kkk
- [8:49] Samuel Linden: a few months ago we released our first milestone
- [8:50] Samuel Linden: which included support for HTML on a parcel, and introduced
the new LLMedia Framework
- [8:50] Samuel Linden: since then we have undertaken a comprehensive product
analysis to guide our thinking
- [8:51] Samuel Linden: and from that we hope to have a complete design spec in the
- [8:51] Samuel Linden: I love how my messages are coming in out of order
- [8:51] Samuel Linden: makes it more fun
- [8:51] Callum Linden: /hi everyone - sorry i'm late
- [8:51] Tao Takashi: to me it looks in order
- [8:51] Rex Cronon: hi callum
- [8:51] Mircea Lobo: Hello
- [8:51] Cane Janick: hi
- [8:51] Tao Takashi: Hey Callum
- [8:51] Samuel Linden: good
- [8:51] BlueWall Slade: hi
- [8:52] Morgaine Dinova: Oh dear, "product analysis" sounds pretty bad
- [8:52] RJ Kikuchiyo: So far you are in order and making sense on this end Z
- [8:52] Zero Linden: thinks of SL as the Dada of presentations
- [8:52] Ivy Farber: Hi
- [8:52] RJ Kikuchiyo: i mean Sam
- [8:52] Samuel Linden: no, product analysis is really good
- [8:52] Samuel Linden: it means we will deliver features that you really want,
instead of what we think you want
- [8:52] Samuel Linden: don't fear it
- [8:52] Zero Linden: Can you give us the overview of what that analysis has found so
- [8:52] Samuel Linden: so we met last week to discuss the initial findings
- [8:53] Saijanai Kuhn: has fear of analysts
- [8:53] Samuel Linden: and in a nutshell people want seamless media integration
- [8:53] Tao Takashi: and how was the analysis done?
- [8:53] Samuel Linden: and our Business customers want document sharing in some
- [8:53] Samuel Linden: and our Business customers want document sharing in some
- [8:53] Rex Cronon: it depends on who u used as test subjects
- [8:53] Morgaine Dinova: I see some Dilbert or xkcd links coming up ... :-)
- [8:53] Samuel Linden: we got a bunch of patients from the San Francisco Mental
- [8:54] BlueWall Slade: hehe
- [8:54] Samuel Linden: fed them lots of prozac
- [8:54] Saijanai Kuhn: resembles that remark
- [8:54] Rex Cronon: lol, than u must have very interesting results:)
- [8:54] Samuel Linden: essentially we surveyed different segments of the community
- [8:54] Ivy Farber: :-D
- [8:54] Tao Takashi: damn, I am only part of the Aachen Mental Health program
- [8:54] Samuel Linden: and just asked
- [8:54] Samuel Linden: I know, it sounds too simple
- [8:55] Samuel Linden: it turns out people were eager to tell us what they wanted
- [8:55] Dings Digital: come on people, everyone knows how a survey is done
- [8:55] Samuel Linden: this isn't rocket science, and we haven't radically changed
course based on the analysis
- [8:55] Samuel Linden: but it has guided us in certain design decisions
- [8:56] Samuel Linden: I will give you an example
- [8:56] Samuel Linden: for some time we have been contemplating Shared Media as a
- [8:56] Morgaine Dinova: Samuel: You could have simply read back the SL forums
(or scraped keyword stats from them) --- people have been saying what they want for 4-5 years :-)
- [8:56] Valiant Westland: A robust "document/media collaboration" solution is
going to be a MUST HAVE to compete with future competition from Google
- [8:56] Samuel Linden: as most of you know the media you see on a parcel is
- [8:56] Samuel Linden: Morgaine we did a good deal of that
- [8:57] Tao Takashi: basically you just have to read my blog ;-)
- [8:57] Samuel Linden: so the analysis came back basically saying that shared
media was really a few different experiences
- [8:57] Samuel Linden: and so rather than focus on a single large initiative
- [8:57] Mircea Lobo: likes parcel media for the most part. The only thing she would
find nice would be if in cases of Web Page or Image media you could assign ore then one url to a texture,
if that could be possible
- [8:58] Samuel Linden: we chose to focus on two separate products: Link Sharing
and Document Sharing
- [8:58] Tao Takashi: would like taking a media texture with you (HUD), more than
just one and of course Flash
- [8:58] Samuel Linden: this allows us to better target functionality to the needs
of our stakeholders, rather than focus on a single monolithic strategy that never gets fully implemented
- [8:58] BlueWall Slade: Tao++
- [8:59] Samuel Linden: sees all of your comments, and hasn't seen anything that
isn't called out in the analysis yet
- [8:59] Tao Takashi: then it's all good :)
- [8:59] Quinn Houston: /ao on
- [8:59] Samuel Linden: so far
- [8:59] Zero Linden: Samuel- can you describe those two cases in a little more
detail - I imagine that different people here will guess they mean different things
- [8:59] Morgaine Dinova: Products? More like design features. The word "Product"
introduces all the wrong connotations ... these things can't be introducing like you market a product.
- [8:59] Samuel Linden: be glad to
- [8:59] Tao Takashi: yes, that would be good
- [8:59] Samuel Linden: please bear with me as my text is still appearing out of
order to me :)
- [8:59] BlueWall Slade: vertical partitioning of a parcels media space??
- [8:59] Arifi Saeed: Maybe it would be helpful to hear what Samuel has to say before
leaping in with comments and critiques, eh?
- [9:00] Samuel Linden: so link sharing is all about communal browsing
- [9:00] Samuel Linden: it is basically just a means to synchronize the current URL
on a prim
- [9:01] Samuel Linden: part of this will be to enable in-world interaction with
HTML on a prim
- [9:01] Zha Ewry: Except, that in many cases that won't be shared viewing at all, as so
much of the web browsingf experience is contextual
- [9:01] Tao Takashi: ah, so you broadcast the next url to all the clients?
- [9:01] Samuel Linden: so if I navigate to a new url on a prim, everyone will se
- [9:01] Samuel Linden: exactly Tao
- [9:01] Tao Takashi: k
- [9:01] Zha Ewry: But, they won't in many cases
- [9:01] Zha Ewry: they will see either errorrs
- [9:01] Zha Ewry: or a totally different page
- [9:01] Samuel Linden: yes, there are serious limitations to how much is actually
- [9:02] Tao Takashi: yeah, what happens if you login to something?
- [9:02] Samuel Linden: yes, cookies and authentication would NOT be shared
- [9:02] Tao Takashi: (in case forms are possible)
- [9:02] Samuel Linden: it is a very limited feature
- [9:02] Tao Takashi: but then all the links would be broken
- [9:02] Zha Ewry: And, if the links are broadcast
- [9:02] Zha Ewry: you are actually goign to leak information that people may not want
- [9:02] Samuel Linden: however it solves a very concrete problem
- [9:03] Tao Takashi: well, I guess people will learn not to login to things ;-) I
guess one needs to see it in action if this really is a problem
- [9:03] Samuel Linden: again, this is not a monolithic solution to shared media
- [9:03] Tao Takashi: at least you can design a webapp for that in mind
- [9:03] Morgaine Dinova: Samuel: It's so depressing that you've concluded that
people want to be in this virtual world is to browse the web
- [9:03] Samuel Linden: it is a single feature set that clearly defines behavior
- [9:03] Samuel Linden: Morgaine, I did not conclude that
- [9:04] Tao Takashi: for me it's not so much about browsing the web but being able
to create better UIs via the web
- [9:04] Samuel Linden: the OTHER product
- [9:04] Tao Takashi: will you also be able to talk back to SL from the webpage then?
e.g. I click a link and some script is triggered?
- [9:04] Dafydd Laville: RPC?
- [9:04] Rex Cronon: the viewer crashes without reason:(
- [9:05] Samuel Linden: is a VNC-like image sharing project
- [9:05] Valiant Westland: Ms. Dinova, with all due respect, I have many clients
who would like to use web apps within the Metaverse. Applications that can't be or shouldn't be built "in-
- [9:05] Tao Takashi: and which you still can use or watch together
- [9:05] Mircea Lobo: What I think would rock for web pages on prims is if you could
click links and write in text spaces
- [9:05] Samuel Linden: for this we would enable image broadcasting to a secure
server, which would mirror that to interested parties
- [9:06] Samuel Linden: this very specifically enables in-world presentations and
slide shows in a much more intuitive way than is now possible
- [9:06] Dings Digital: sounds good
- [9:06] Tao Takashi: Samuel: would this also enable something like Project
wonderland can do, like shared desktop apps?
- [9:06] Samuel Linden: not completely Tao
- [9:06] Samuel Linden: but eventually, yes
- [9:06] Cel Edman: Well it could be nice, like reading my guestbook html, and convert
like the letters in a 3D letter cloud :)
- [9:06] Tao Takashi: (I guess there are many security considerations with this)
- [9:07] Emanuele Hax: I agree at all with Samuel.
- [9:07] Arawn Spitteler: Entering Chat, to HTML on a Prim should be already
- [9:07] Samuel Linden: so that is an example of a single domain that was broken up
into multiple projects based on Product Analysis
- [9:07] Samuel Linden: we are also planning to deliver some sort of Flash support
- [9:08] Morgaine Dinova: Valiant: I know you have many such clients, and that's
what's depressing. Gwynneth LLewelyn calls you augmentists (see SL as nothing more than augmenting the
web), versus the immersionists who see virtual worlds as something distinct from RL, and lessened by
contact with RL.
- [9:08] Samuel Linden: as I know you are all calmoring for this
- [9:08] Tao Takashi: I just wanted to ask :)
- [9:08] Tao Takashi: I want ustream.tv on a prim :)
- [9:08] Emanuele Hax: Flash is a MUST i think
- [9:08] Rex Cronon: can u do the same thing for Java?
- [9:08] Tree Kyomoon: SL is a platform for Apps, or its got no future
- [9:08] Samuel Linden: and we are planning to support WebKit as an HTML renderer
- [9:08] Valiant Westland: Agreed Kyomoon!
- [9:08] Tao Takashi: and an SL renderer ;-)
- [9:09] Tao Takashi: There.com on a prim maybe ;-)
- [9:09] Samuel Linden: are people aware of the LLMedia Framework?
- [9:09] Saijanai Kuhn: be sure to include the new ero-day vulnerability announced
- [9:09] Morgaine Dinova: Crashing on a prim is a must. And Flash hanging the
machine on a prim is absolutely essential.
- [9:09] Tao Takashi: actually with Flash the VW interoperability with many virtual
worlds would be solved ;-)
- [9:09] Callum Linden: rex: java is much trickier than flash - may come one day
but nothing planned for now
- [9:09] Zha Ewry: For values of Epsilon approachign infinity, Tao
- [9:10] Tree Kyomoon: actionscript 3 is ECMA so Java wouldnt really offer much more
I dont think
- [9:10] Samuel Linden: Callum, anything you want to add?
- [9:10] Cel Edman: would love to see flash support, and a bit of actionscript.
- [9:10] Saijanai Kuhn: contemplates a Squeak plugin in a html on a prim enabling
Croquet access on a prim --sorta
- [9:10] Tao Takashi: and controlling scripts in-world via JS would be very nice
- [9:10] Emanuele Hax: i think there's a middle way for the 2d/3d web. and SL can
give us both
- [9:10] Tao Takashi: then you really could use it as UI instead of xytext
- [9:11] Mircea Lobo: What id like to see like i said is full web browsing on a prim.
Being able to do on a prim's face what you cand on in IE or the integrated browser in sl
- [9:11] Callum Linden: i'd be interested to know what else people would like to
see as media 'plugins'
- [9:11] Morgaine Dinova: Flash is not a solution to anything, given that the SL
client is cross-platform and open-source. Unless you stick to very primitive Flash, there is no reliable
FOSS code to handle it.
- [9:11] Tree Kyomoon: but embedding SL in flash/java/html or vice versa should be a
- [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: svg
- [9:11] BlueWall Slade: svg++
- [9:11] Callum Linden: you get that now Saijanai with the mozilla media support
- [9:11] Samuel Linden: I believe we have svg support under our Mozilla plugin
- [9:11] Saijanai Kuhn: svg on aprim and floating svt-text/graphics
- [9:12] RJ Kikuchiyo: SL content browsing is shared between multiple viewers...
this framework seems to incorporate that thinking into web browsing - is there a plan for shared secure
- [9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: Samel, not that I am aware of
- [9:12] Cel Edman: For me somehow to make (interactive) animation in like flash/java
or whatever. and have them big on a wall in sl would be great. Most of my animations in java or flash are
only a few kb.
- [9:12] Saijanai Kuhn: find an svg page that sdisplays
- [9:12] Cel Edman: (and the animations i made are coded)
- [9:12] Callum Linden: how about PDF? would that be useful /
- [9:13] Callum Linden: ?
- [9:13] BlueWall Slade: pdf++
- [9:13] Valiant Westland: I believe Ms. Lobo's comment "Being able to do on a
prim's face what you cand on in IE or the integrated browser in sl" and the previous comment about Apps in
SL being a requirement for SL's survival in the future are dead on. It's what every client we have spoken
with in RL says.
- [9:13] Tree Kyomoon: PDF and flash will eventually be one
- [9:13] Saijanai Kuhn: sai janai chants svg before pdf
- [9:13] Samuel Linden: Cel, any native Flash pugin would support .swf
- [9:13] Cel Edman: second if scripted animations are possible.. like flash > I could
make dynamic like sculptimages > animated 3D models with millions of different forms
- [9:13] JeanPierre Euler: oh PDF! all mathmatics physics edu is pdf-based
- [9:13] Zha Ewry: An integrated browser, is only interesting ifi it leads to a shared
- [9:14] Saijanai Kuhn: gags at the virus that is pdf
- [9:14] Zero Linden: anyone have ideas of how they'd use Flash in the shared
environment of SL? Flash as it sits doesn't really support that model
- [9:14] Cel Edman: quicktime dropped flash support
- [9:14] Emanuele Hax: question...if i have a company with a website...i pay 50
dollars/year for a website with full memory. if your idea will push out the 2d network...do i have to pay
200 dollars at month for a sim???? or things will change?
- [9:14] Callum Linden: saijani:
 - works for me here
- [9:14] Zha Ewry: I think most people have very broken expectations about what they
will get from a window showing a web page which isn't part of hte shared experience
- [9:14] Zero Linden: do you expect it to be like we are walking up to a monitor and
computer in RL and both users can grab the mouse and click?
- [9:14] Tao Takashi: Zero: I mostly would like to stream into SL via Flash and watch
- [9:14] Tao Takashi: like conferences
- [9:14] Zero Linden: or are you expecting that each of us has a private view of that
- [9:14] Tree Kyomoon: svg is slow and not used very much. Not really any point to
SVG other than the poindexter factor.
- [9:15] Emanuele Hax: lol. i understand nothin...too much people talking :D
- [9:15] Tao Takashi: so I am more interested in this aspect not necessary playing
games together etc.
- [9:15] Tao Takashi: (so it's the FLV part of it)
- [9:15] Rex Cronon: svg can very usefull for creating GUIs
- [9:15] Zha Ewry: The shared expeince notion goes way beyond games
- [9:15] RJ Kikuchiyo: sounds like discriminating which users can see and who cant
see content displayed on a prim
- [9:16] Mircea Lobo: As for the idea of flash working in sl... if by flash you meant
what i think (as in flash games you play on the web) this could be integrated with my idea; flash on a
primitive face. As in putting a .swf file instead of a .html
- [9:16] Morgaine Dinova: Samuel: there is no working open-source flash plugin
for recent versions of Flash.
- [9:16] Callum Linden: does anyone have strong opinions about how the control for
a shared media object should work ? some kind of baton passing perhaps? free-for-all?
- [9:16] Samuel Linden: Morgaine, true
- [9:16] Emanuele Hax: question...if i have a company with a website...i pay 50
dollars/year for a website with full memory. if your idea will push out the 2d network...do i have to pay
200 dollars at month for a sim???? or things will change?
- [9:16] Tree Kyomoon: swf is easier to use than svg for GUI
- [9:17] Valiant Westland: Once again... there has to be more than shared
"experience" for justification... there must be shared "Value"
- [9:17] Tree Kyomoon: and far more efficient
- [9:17] Bowiena Daviau: hello
- [9:17] Rex Cronon: shouldn't the owner control the media by default, and possibly
allow others some controls?
- [9:17] Samuel Linden: Emanuele, I am not sure what you are asking
- [9:17] Cel Edman: Well I noticed html-prim is really like cpu-intensive at the
- [9:17] Tree Kyomoon: flash is an application development tool, not a primitive toy
- [9:17] Tao Takashi: some access list
- [9:17] Tao Takashi: which is controllable via LSL
- [9:17] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: swf has no working open-source plugin for recent
versions of flash.
- [9:18] Tree Kyomoon: check out flex morgaine
- [9:18] Arifi Saeed: Emanuele, the server resource requirments to run a sim are
considerably greater than those required to run a web site.
- [9:18] Samuel Linden: Tao, with the document sharing approach individuals would
have to authenticate with the object to see the media
- [9:18] Saijanai Kuhn: QT won't support it. LInux won't support it
- [9:18] Mircea Lobo: swf files can just worl like putting a wuicktime stream on a
texture does, or a .html like it works now more recently
- [9:18] Tree Kyomoon: and the swf format is open source
- [9:18] Emanuele Hax: kkk
- [9:18] Mircea Lobo: *quicktime
- [9:18] JeanPierre Euler: In research community there is a big denand for the
good shared writeboard, comfortable and not laggy
- [9:18] Tree Kyomoon: has been for years
- [9:18] Rex Cronon: and javacan be quite powerfull, fast, and lightwight too:)
- [9:18] Samuel Linden: JeanPierre, we see that as a very high value use case
- [9:19] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: SWF is not open source. It's a published
specification, which is very different.
- [9:19] Tao Takashi: Samuel: ok but what about who is allowed to click links?
- [9:19] Samuel Linden: and some shared whiteboards already work
- [9:19] Tao Takashi: I already think about this with media players. you might want
people to change a video but maybe not everybody every 10 seconds
- [9:19] Dafydd Laville: I'd go with baton passing
- [9:19] Samuel Linden: Tao, we would most likely push that decision to the media
- [9:19] Callum Linden: /JeanPierre - that will come with Flash - there are quite a
few slick shared whiteboards using it
- [9:19] Tao Takashi: Samuel: so basically how media is controlled today?
- [9:20] Samuel Linden: well when it is liberated from the Parcel it would be up to
the object permissions
- [9:20] Zha Ewry: has yet to see an in world whietboard which was usable in any way
which I'd call accerptabel even to skilled SL users. Between lag and an interface which normally is hostile
to capturing mouse strokes? Its' pretty vile
- [9:20] Saijanai Kuhn: remem bers the licensing agreement for the swf file format:
no product may compete with Macromedia's (adobe's)
- [9:20] JeanPierre Euler: oh ! great to hear!
- [9:20] Morgaine Dinova: Zha: agreed
- [9:20] Tree Kyomoon: morgaine, for practical purposes there is no difference. You
are pointlessly splitting hairs in my opinion.
- [9:20] Tao Takashi: Samuel: That would be good because deeded objects are annoying
- [9:20] Zero Linden: Callum - how will that work - each of us will ahve our own
browser state - and then you'll rely on a flash plug in that knows how to sync state with all viewers?
- [9:21] Qie Niangao: Frankly, the added LSL functionality needed to make any of this
useful for anything will be more valuable than any of the media applications it enables.
- [9:21] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: the exact opposite of what you said: what's
relevant PRACTICALLY is whether FOSS people can run your beautiful Flash, not whether there is a published
- [9:21] Tao Takashi: can't it be one browser on that shared experience server?
- [9:21] Arifi Saeed: Samuel, is there (or will there be) a writeup of this available
- of the architectural approaches your are describing here - not only of this jumbled conversation?
- [9:21] Samuel Linden: Zero, I believe flash whiteboards mostly synch events to a
remote process which spams them back out to all connected clients
- [9:21] Tao Takashi: like project wonderland basically?
- [9:21] Callum Linden: zero: yes, exactly - the ones i'm thinking off appear to
support shared interaction now in your browser - it will behave the same in SL
- [9:21] Samuel Linden: Arifi, we will post the design to the public wiki in the
- [9:22] Cel Edman: So currently its only to make like scripted dynamic animation with
- [9:22] Tree Kyomoon: Morgaine check out Gnash
- [9:23] Arifi Saeed: Samuel, excellent, tx!
- [9:23] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: Gnash doesn't work except for very old versions
that sort of thing - i've always thought that would be useful for adding interactivity to items in SL -
stores or vending machines for example - but i might be way off base
- [9:23] Tree Kyomoon: its under dev
- [9:23] Morgaine Dinova: And even then only partially
- [9:23] Arifi Saeed: I agree Callum.
- [9:23] Arifi Saeed: AJAX support.
- [9:23] Zero Linden: Right - so to make shared Flash experiences in world,
developers will need to do the sync'ing in Flash and their own servers, not rely on the Media sub-system to
provide a shared flash instance ---
- [9:23] Zero Linden: --- and of course I understand why this is so
- [9:23] Bowiena Daviau: hmm
- [9:23] RJ Kikuchiyo: must go - will look for the transcript on wiki - Thank You
Samuel, Zero, Kelly, and all for making this happen
- [9:23] Zero Linden: as it would be very difficult / expensive to do a shared
- [9:24] Zero Linden: but I want people here to understand that distincution
- [9:24] Zero Linden: *distinction
- [9:24] Arifi Saeed: The disctinction being? Summary please?
- [9:24] Cane Janick: got it
- [9:24] Arifi Saeed: Between . . . . adn . . . .
- [9:24] Arifi Saeed: and?
- [9:24] Zero Linden: If we have flash on a media surface, that each user looking at
the surface has a flash engine running the base flash file separaterly
- [9:25] Bowiena Daviau: hello
- [9:25] Rex Cronon: hi
- [9:25] Zero Linden: vs. there being one flash instance running, and each user
getting to see the image it is rendering
- [9:25] Zha Ewry: With no shared experience, other than starting from semi-similar
- [9:25] Zha Ewry: vs. a single render instance
- [9:25] Zha Ewry: shared out to the group of users
- [9:25] Zero Linden: Therefore, if the flash is not written to be "shared" or
"sync'd" somehow, each of us will see a different state
- [9:25] Zero Linden: this is fine
- [9:25] Samuel Linden: I think to Zero's point we are being very careful about
what we promise to support in terms of a shared experience, however applications such as Flash enable
sharing in ways that don't require our support
- [9:25] Zero Linden: but it implies how you build content
- [9:25] Zero Linden: as we interact with it locally
- [9:26] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: you need to think about the non-functional
aspects of "the Flash experience" too, and aht problems it might introduce, not just think about the eye
candy and the benefits. If you're going to use the Adobe plugin, then you're making FOSS client people 2nd
class citizens again.
- [9:26] Zero Linden: well . as do AJAX techniques with web browsers
- [9:26] Emanuele Hax: can we have 2d/3d Secondlife in the same software?
- [9:26] Cane Janick: so both will be available
- [9:26] Cane Janick: ?
- [9:26] Bowiena Daviau: oho I see all colored ropes near the ava`s
- [9:26] Zero Linden: well - so far, everything I said about flash is true about
every other media type so far: QT and Web
- [9:26] Cel Edman: it sounds like mm strange, but like if html on a prim is supported
> why not like I have a (dynamic) html-page on my server, that generates the content of my sim.
- [9:26] Tree Kyomoon: again morgaine, you are splitting hairs. You could not come
up with a single instance where something someone in the FOSS community wanted to do would be impossible
under Adobe's current open screen project.
- [9:26] Zero Linden: it is just that for QT
- [9:26] Zero Linden: it is possible to sync up all the viewers from the sim
- [9:27] Zero Linden: and with URL sharing, that is one form of sync up for HTML
- [9:27] Zero Linden: these forms of syncing provide a shared experience with little
or no development
- [9:27] Zero Linden: in the media being shared it self
- [9:27] Morgaine Dinova: Tree: here's a fact for you: there is no Adobe flash
plugin for 64-bit. So, it's OK to make a part of the world invisible to a segment of the SL population, is
- [9:27] Zero Linden: the sharing/syncing is a function or option of the virtual
- [9:27] Tao Takashi: I am ok with people running their own instances as long as you
can somehow do communications another way
- [9:27] Samuel Linden: and to Zero's point they are wheels that have already been
- [9:27] Bowiena Daviau: lindesn`s thnks for sl
- [9:28] Zero Linden: in the case of more significant web applications, or something
like flash (or even squeak :-O )
- [9:28] Tao Takashi: Morgaine: IMHO better then for everybody
- [9:28] Zero Linden: it would require development in the media itself to make a
sync'd or shared expereince
- [9:28] Tao Takashi: Zero: That's ok though I think
- [9:28] Arifi Saeed: What about Microsoft Silverlight - how might that fit in here?
- [9:29] Tao Takashi: you might even want to do this because then you can serve
different versions out and personalize them
- [9:29] Callum Linden: if microsoft want to make an LLMedia 'plugin' for
silverlight, i think it'd be great :)
- [9:29] Morgaine Dinova: Tao: if it's official Linden policy to leave 64-bit and
FOSS c lients behind, fine. But if it's not official policy, and just happens because designers can't look
ahead and forsee problems, then things are not well.
- [9:29] Samuel Linden: Arifi, there is some interest from a 3rd party on
developing support for silverlight
- [9:29] Tao Takashi: like put a username somewhere etc.
- [9:29] Saijanai Kuhn: 
- [9:30] Arifi Saeed: I will encourage Microsoft to do a LLMedia plugin for
- [9:30] Zero Linden: Friends
- [9:30] Zero Linden: it is 9:30
- [9:30] Zero Linden: and I need to go
- [9:30] Samuel Linden: me too
- [9:30] Callum Linden: me three
- [9:30] Zero Linden: and suspect that Samuel and Callum mgiht have to as well
- [9:30] Arifi Saeed: Thanks guys.
- [9:30] Samuel Linden: thank you all for your time
- [9:30] Rex Cronon: bye zero, samule, calum
- [9:30] Mircea Lobo: Later then. I need to go too for now
- [9:30] Tao Takashi: thanks for coming :)
- [9:30] BlueWall Slade: thanks for the insight and your time :)
- [9:30] Callum Linden: yes, thanks for all the valuable input
- [9:30] Tao Takashi: and telling us!
- [9:30] Cane Janick: thanks
- [9:30] Rex Cronon: samuel*
- [9:30] Saijanai Kuhn: take care Zero, Callum
- [9:30] Qie Niangao: thank you, Zero, Samueal, Callum!
- [9:30] Morgaine Dinova: This is the problem with LL's studio system: no
cohesion. One part decides to open-source the client and 64-bit, and another part decides to use the
closed, 32-bit only Flash plugin. Jeez.
- [9:30] Tao Takashi: so when do we get it? ;-)
- [9:31] Emanuele Hax: Hello You =)
- [9:31] Bell Boyd: ?????^^ ByeBye~?
- [9:31] Bell Boyd: Bye!
- [9:31] Aria Eichel: thanks all linden
- [9:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Samuel, Kelly
- [9:31] Emanuele Hax: Ciao =)
- [9:31] Callum Linden: /see you all later
- [9:31] Morgaine Dinova: Cheers Samuel and Callum
- [9:31] Samuel Linden: bye all
- [9:31] Kelly Linden: looks forward to viewing a web page on a prim served from a
script in the prim with https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_http_server . See everyone later. :)
- [9:31] Aki Shichiroji: Take care all.
- [9:31] JeanPierre Euler: thanks!
- [9:31] Mircea Lobo: later
- [9:31] Zero Linden: Thanks for coming and talking, Samuel and Callum
- [9:31] Zha Ewry: Thanks for the input and hope some of the feedback is useful
- [9:31] Rex Cronon: bye kelly
- [9:31] Tao Takashi: Kelly. heh :)
- [9:32] Morgaine Dinova: Very interesting talk. And depressing in the lack of
analysis of the consequences.