User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 November 04

From Second Life Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
  • [13:03] Patnad Babii: Hi Infinity!
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: hola peoples!
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: stand back.. i've got a cough today
  • [13:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Infi!
  • [13:03] Morgaine Dinova: I'm immune, cough away :-)
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: heh, we don't yet have RL<>metaverse interfacing at the microscopic level, so your cold viruses ain't coming here ;)
  • [13:04] Kerry Giha: Hello Infinity
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: nah... i got the gak that's going around the local schools
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: i love my little one to death... but he's totally a vector
  • [13:04] Morgaine Dinova: Tut tut, hanging around the local schools ... :P
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: shows off teh l33t immune system
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [13:05] Kerry Giha: A good thing about SL is large groups of people can meet without sharing biological ailments.
  • [13:05] Gwen Hermit: CoQ10, Vitamin C and Zinc: keep taking it
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: for the record... if i'm at thelocal school... it's usually to drop my son off
  • [13:05] Gwen Hermit: don't of course suddenly drop from uber-large Vitamin C dose to 0.....
  • [13:05] Morgaine Dinova: Echinacea works wonders for me. Might be psychosomatic, who knows, but it works, and immediately :-)
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: or to play "designated reader"
  • [13:05] Gwen Hermit: if it works immediately, then it's placebo
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: yeah... i know all those... echinatia and vitamin c
  • [13:06] Lalinda Lovell: is that like designated driver and you arent allowed to get drunk :P
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: Could be, but if it works, it works :-)
  • [13:06] Gwen Hermit: i've never found a supplement that works on the cold in less than 24 hours
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: but it was stupid this time and didn't jump on it at the first minor signs
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: Just means that we have internal defenses thay can be activated mentally, which is dead cool :-)
  • [13:06] Gwen Hermit: anything that could work instantly, i wouldn't call a supplement, i'd call it a rather cool drug
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: i've *sometimes* been able to ward off the gak if i bomb my system with vitamin c at the very first signs
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: but alas... i was up late... burning the candle at all three ends
  • [13:07] Gwen Hermit: infinity - i take a rather scary-looking handful of pills daily.....
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: trying to understand our existing IM system
  • [13:07] Morgaine Dinova: That's what I do, 2 vit-C tabs, 1 general vit, and 2 Echinacea capsules ... sheer magic :-)
  • [13:07] Lalinda Lovell: get the flu vaccine, its great
  • [13:07] Gwen Hermit: heh, tell us what's the backend like these days?
  • [13:07] Gwen Hermit: for IMs
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: and i'm doing the fibre caps these days...
  • [13:07] Gwen Hermit: rough flow?
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: but maybe that's TMI
  • [13:08] Gwen Hermit: just don't do the probiotics
  • [13:08] Gwen Hermit: and that "rough flow" was in reference to IMs......
  • [13:08] Gwen Hermit: poorly timed, sorry
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: i'm happy to continue the supplement discussion
  • [13:08] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: but i gotta run quick
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: right after the meeting
  • [13:08] Lalinda Lovell: sai is afk
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: i'm working a last minute phone bank
  • [13:09] Gwen Hermit: well, 2 things: 1 - don't do probiotics kids, 2 - what's the rough flow OF INSTANT MESSAGES look like
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: for a candidate or issue that it would be improper to mention
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: topics?
  • [13:09] Morgaine Dinova: I second Gwen's question.
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: okay
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: well
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: the IM flow is
  • [13:09] Gwen Hermit: yes, if you get 1 cut in your mouth, just a tiny cut, those probiotics go straight into your bloodstream and make you ill
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: as one might expect
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: a touch "baroque"
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: given the complexity of our backend
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: fortunately
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: the front-end it fairly straightforward
  • [13:10] Gwen Hermit: it's the backend i wanna know about
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: for those keeping score... Sai and I are (supposed to be) working on an OGPification of our existing IM flows
  • [13:10] Infinity Linden: @Gwen.. you and me both
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: it's definitely baroque
  • [13:11] Gwen Hermit: sai has been talking about group IMs for a while
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: and
  • [13:11] Rex Cronon: greetings
  • [13:11] Gwen Hermit: i'd like to know about practical steps there
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: if you look at the source code and the message template
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: (the viewer source)
  • [13:11] Morgaine Dinova: OK, it's baroque, but what is it? ;-)
  • [13:11] Gwen Hermit: it really seems like if you just take a standard sim and run nothing but the IM stuff, you'd have a trivial bridge for IMs
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: you'll notice that we have at least three different implementations for IM
  • [13:11] Lalinda Lovell: i assume baroque means complex, fiddly
  • [13:12] Gwen Hermit: ImprovedInstantMessage, InstantMessage, ChatFromViewer
  • [13:12] Infinity Linden: yes... baroque as in complex, not as in "broken"
  • [13:12] Gwen Hermit: those 3 are what come to mind
  • [13:12] Gwen Hermit: but the latter is local
  • [13:12] Morgaine Dinova: OK, let's break this down the. We're talking about flows only. First, what receives an IM string from the client first?
  • [13:12] Infinity Linden: i'm also including some agent-based HTTP flows for signaling
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: and to answer the "what is the back end"
  • [13:13] Gwen Hermit: sim of course ;)
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: question
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: a. no comment
  • [13:13] Gwen Hermit: IMs are still flowing over UDP
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: and
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: b. it's not an existing "off the shelf system"
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: and
  • [13:13] Gwen Hermit: LLString.......
  • [13:13] Lalinda Lovell: in other words, its like the coca cola recipe
  • [13:13] Infinity Linden: c. we're not going to name it as we may one day wish to replace it
  • [13:13] Morgaine Dinova: This isn't going to get answered unless we focus, I can sense it. :-))) What receives our client's IM string?
  • [13:14] Lalinda Lovell: it cant be told in detail
  • [13:14] Gwen Hermit: THE SIM
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: okay...
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: right now it's the sim
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: specifically what Sai and i are working on is Group IM
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:14] Morgaine Dinova: JEEZ, WE KNOW IT'S THE SIM!!!! Which software subsystem?
  • [13:14] Gwen Hermit: viewer > UDP > sim > ???? > sim > UDP > viewer > "i can haz free lindens?"
  • [13:14] Raff Magic: Hello!
  • [13:14] Lalinda Lovell: morgaine, its partially secret it seems
  • [13:14] Morgaine Dinova: Ah
  • [13:14] Infinity Linden: no... it's totally secret
  • [13:14] Lalinda Lovell: ok
  • [13:14] Rex Cronon: HI
  • [13:14] Gwen Hermit: completely secret if you want to know which part of the sim code handles it
  • [13:15] Gwen Hermit: since none of newsim's code is open
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: right
  • [13:15] Gwen Hermit: other than the bits in the other modules that happen to ship with the viewer source
  • [13:15] Morgaine Dinova: Well in that case, just say "We're not saying". :-) Next topic please.
  • [13:15] Gwen Hermit: morgaine: did you want to know what class in newsim handles it? :)
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: yes... i'm really trying to tap-dance around the issue
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: but yes
  • [13:15] Infinity Linden: it's proprietary
  • [13:15] Gwen Hermit: i'd reallly really love to see that code :(
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: and has been the subject of criticizm
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:16] Gwen Hermit: well, we don't need to know the details of what C++ class handles it, just what the actual process does
  • [13:16] Gwen Hermit: it comes to the sim, the sim does something as a black box and then sends it out: where next?
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: @Gwen... the simplest answer is... its not entirely easy to say
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: the code gets somewhat complicated
  • [13:17] Gwen Hermit: there's >1 path out of the sim for user<>user IMs?
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: depending on whether the sim sending the message thinks you're online
  • [13:17] Gwen Hermit: ah
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: which is one of the reasons i was up late
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: trying to understand it
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: but my hope is
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: we can concentrate on "getting the client <-> server" interface "halfway right"
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: and then work on open implementations
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: and personally...
  • [13:18] Gwen Hermit: can you tell us what happens assuming that user B is online?
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: (and this is just me talking
  • [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: zzzmmpph ?
  • [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: hey all
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: after digging in the server codebase
  • [13:19] Gwen Hermit: IM comes into sim, sim does something and then it forwards it..... where and with what protocol/format?
  • [13:19] Gwen Hermit: hey sai, welcome back
  • [13:19] Rex Cronon: HI
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: i would like to see IM get a total makeover
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: so no sign that I own the stuff. NOt sure if that's good or bad
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: IRS says I'm rich (to fill folks in)
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: it's likely not to happen in the near term
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: yeah... the California Franchise Tax Board keeps saying the same thing about me
  • [13:20] Rex Cronon: designing an open protocol using propietary code. that is weird
  • [13:20] Lalinda Lovell: sai, remember that money you owe me ;)
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: nah
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: it's happened before
  • [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: I can't remember the money I ow ME, so you're in trouble...
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: you define an open specification to interface with existing proprietary code
  • [13:20] Gwen Hermit: inifinity - can you tell us what i'm asking? (i.e where the IM goes after leaving sim A, and how it gets there) or can you not tell us due to Imaginary Property concerns?
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: @Gwen... IP is one reason. the other is depending on the state of the sim and the state of the agents.. the information flow gets complex
  • [13:21] Lalinda Lovell: can i sum up - awg has been going for 10 months or so, and no work is finally starting we realise its sooooo complex that it will take many months to do anything?
  • [13:21] Morgaine Dinova: Well about 9 months ago, I was at the office hours of a Linden who was obtaining feedback on IM perceptions and suggestions, and one of the things he said was that incoming messages aren't handled by pre-built exploders, but instead, every message requires trips to the user's database tables, which is a recursive process and hence has massive DB impact.
  • [13:21] Lalinda Lovell: now*
  • [13:21] Rex Cronon: but there is no interface provided
  • [13:21] Gwen Hermit: well, i just said assuming user A and user B are both online
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: right... the simplest solution is User A and User B both online in the same sim
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: the 2 natural approaches would be "sim A looks up where user B is, and then sends direct to sim B" or "sim A sends to IM server X, IM server X sends to sim B"
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: which of these 2 approaches is used?
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: and blergh
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: i'm talking about user A and user B in different sims
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: if they're in the same sim the backend isn't touched
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: we should explicitly say whether we're talking about group or spatial chat
  • [13:22] Imaze Rhiano: It sounds like that IM is one of that code that is just born to world without any planning :P
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: user:user
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: not group chat
  • [13:23] Lalinda Lovell: infinity, arent there people who are willing to help for free who would sign secrecy clauses to speed it up, heck i would do it myself
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: or yes.. user to user
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: @Lalinda.. i'll send that one up the management chain..
  • [13:23] Lalinda Lovell: ok i think its worth asking
  • [13:23] Lalinda Lovell: might as well use available resources
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: but i think defining an interface that can work well with OpenSim
  • [13:24] Gwen Hermit: i'd be willing to sign an NDA to look over the sim code and clean it up for external release
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: and reasonably well with our existing IM backend
  • [13:24] Morgaine Dinova: If a message comes back down the management chain, that would be a first ;-))))
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: will give us something we can work with in the near term
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: and during this time, we can continue to battle it out with jabber, IRC and SIMPLE
  • [13:24] Gwen Hermit: inifnity - can you say where an IM goes after leaving sim A? direct to sim B or via an intermediate IM server?
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: actually... i'm not sure i can at this moment
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: after reviewing the code...
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: i'm actually less sure i understand the system
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: the simple overview
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: would be
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: user a says something (to user b)
  • [13:26] Lalinda Lovell: infinity i understand that, i felt that same after seeing some of it
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: the sim realizes it's a person to person message
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: (instead of a spatial chat message)
  • [13:26] Lalinda Lovell: its so very complex that i think no single person can work it all out
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: looks up presence information
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: and decides where to route the message
  • [13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Hey Infinity, he's an idea. If Zero isn't ready to come back to do ZOH's yet, how about arranging for the IM implementation expert to come and chat with us. No proprietary details needed, just concepts.
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: that's what i'm trying to do
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: so lets do that instead
  • [13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Cool! Do we know which Linden that is?
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: so ya got your three types of chat...
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: spatial... 1:1... 1:many...
  • [13:28] Lalinda Lovell: yes
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: or spatial... individual chat... group chat
  • [13:28] Imaze Rhiano: what about offline messages?
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: you have the added detail that individuals could be offline
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: The one that needs to be worked out for the AD is the 1:many
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: for spatial chat... you're target is a location in 3space in a sim
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: 1:1 is currently a specia case of 1:many
  • [13:29] Lalinda Lovell: only group notices and 1 to 1 ims go to email if ticked as a preference
  • [13:30] Infinity Linden: right... you've got to do something with the IM if the target is offline
  • [13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: and this is the clientside packet for I/O [1]
  • [13:30] Imaze Rhiano: in future you might want to have also offline messages to other systems... like some chat programs
  • [13:30] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, for now, I'd just be happy with active avatars getting group and personal messages
  • [13:31] Lalinda Lovell: imaze, i doubt that would happen, but if so it would be by subscription
  • [13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: offline can be left as a future exercise, IMHO
  • [13:31] Gwen Hermit: hang on
  • [13:31] Gwen Hermit: subscription
  • [13:31] Gwen Hermit: that's a good model for IM feeds
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: right... we can just say... 'offline messages get shunted somewhere'
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: for right now
  • [13:31] Lalinda Lovell: because many users pay nothing to use the system, so they cant expect high level perks
  • [13:31] Gwen Hermit: "oy! you! Agent domain! POST messages to this URL please, kthnkbye"
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: but something that'l have to happen sooner rather than later
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: @Gwen.. right.. it's not that simple now.. but that sounds like a great design
  • [13:32] Gwen Hermit: it COULD be that simple
  • [13:33] Infinity Linden: okay... so how's this...
  • [13:33] Gwen Hermit: hook whatever generates that UDP packet to the client, and make it direct things to the HTTP feed
  • [13:33] Lalinda Lovell: infinity am i right in thinking that the original code got spaghetti layers on top, and that original code never foresaw how sl would develop so vastly
  • [13:33] Infinity Linden: the client decides whether it wants to do spatial, individual or group chat
  • [13:33] Gwen Hermit: messy, but could be implemented today if someone sat down for an hour or 2 max
  • [13:33] Infinity Linden: and requests a cap
  • [13:33] Infinity Linden: that it can use to post messages to
  • [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: right, that's the big msising piece. We don't even have a pattern for outgoing message caps along the EQG line
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: k... so that's an action item... get something working there
  • [13:34] Gwen Hermit: sai - not EQG
  • [13:35] Gwen Hermit: i'm thinking of something distinct so you could post messages to something outside of your normal client
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: no no... i think he's saying "like EQG" but with a RESTy interface
  • [13:35] Gwen Hermit: example:
  • [13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: right. SOMETHING with CAPs for the hookup (I assume) but outgoing
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: okay.. well... that's probably more of an OpenSim discussion
  • [13:35] Gwen Hermit: i might want all my IMs to be sent to [2] (hypothetical URL)
  • [13:35] Gwen Hermit: err, no it isn't
  • [13:35] Gwen Hermit: it's a protocol discussion
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: okay... send them there then
  • [13:36] Gwen Hermit: anyway, my server at garethnelson.com would then log my IMs for me etc
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: okay
  • [13:36] Gwen Hermit: i might also want to send them to [3]
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, OK that's an offline type deal, I guess
  • [13:36] Gwen Hermit: and get SMS messages on my mobile phone
  • [13:36] Gwen Hermit: sai - both
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: okay... right... we'll make a system that doesn't REQUIRE a LL server
  • [13:37] Gwen Hermit: infinity - one would hope an open standard is free of any specific vendor implementations :)
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: but LL happens to have a very nice implementation you can use
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: for some strange definition of "nice." ;-)
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: or are you talking about the future?
  • [13:37] Rex Cronon: next, we will hook up to yahoos servers:)
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: nice as in you can use it to talk to over 15 million distinct user accounts
  • [13:37] Gwen Hermit: LLString and LLCrashAndLoop()
  • [13:37] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [13:37] Gwen Hermit: sounds like a lot of LL code needs cleaning up
  • [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, yeah, from that perspective, its unique
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: @Gwen... we've never claimed anything different
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: all things considered... our code isn't that bad
  • [13:38] Gwen Hermit: fair enough :)
  • [13:38] Gwen Hermit: i have my own nightmare code and i'm just one person.....
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: it's just hooking all the subsystems together was probably a lot more difficult than any one person forecasted
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: we got complexity
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: it's pretty much the same story you get in any large system
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: and if i may digress
  • [13:39] Gwen Hermit: if only the metaverse had one generic messaging protocol ;)
  • [13:39] Gwen Hermit: heh
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: a lot of what's been going on internally is making things more stable
  • [13:40] Imaze Rhiano: nothign to shame about it - badly documented code is industry standard
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: partially by trying to remove complexity where possible
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: sadly... very trye
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: so anyway
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: right
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: i think we're all agreed
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: Totally :-)
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: that we want to have a simple interface
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: About what? :P
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
  • [13:41] Infinity Linden: where we POST messages to a "mailbox"
  • [13:42] Rex Cronon: i don't think there was ever a question about having a simple imterface
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: and that splodes them out using some magic we (the client) don't know about
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: mailbox == capability inmy mind
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: right... we hvae to get the signalling right
  • [13:42] Morgaine Dinova: I've never heard "simple interface" being a requirement. In this group, we're more interested in flexible API, and scalable mechanism. :-)
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: so the viewer says... "i wanna talk to..."
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: this region
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: this pers
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: person
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: this group
  • [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: at this point, that IIM packet has hoks deep into the GPL client GUI. Its easy enough to fidge something to use it in other clients, but for most testing, the OGP GPL client is being used at this point
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: and Gwen... were you saying that when the viewer does that chat session setup
  • [13:43] Rex Cronon: simple walks hand in heand with flexible and scalable:)
  • [13:43] Infinity Linden: you would like to see the ability to specify a specific URL to be the endpoint?
  • [13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: simple as in comprehensible...
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: infinity - i was talking about something like this:
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: login returns caps
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: one of which is SubscribeMessages
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: you POST to that with a URL or list of URLs
  • [13:44] Squirrel Wood: Why not "I want to talk to session <uuid>" ?
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: all IMs get sent there
  • [13:44] Infinity Linden: okay.. we could add that as an "external" destination
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: anyone here remember streamlet?
  • [13:45] Gwen Hermit: i had a simple chat server using that which did something similar
  • [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: nah, simplicity is orthogonal to both of those. And in some sense, it's diametrically opposed to flexibility.
  • [13:45] Rex Cronon: u r jocking. right?
  • [13:46] Gwen Hermit: HTTP is simple and flexible
  • [13:46] Morgaine Dinova: I don't jock. :-)
  • [13:46] Gwen Hermit: good protocols tend to be simple and extendible
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: and getting "model 2" is a pain in the keester with HTTP
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: bemoans the demise of IIOP
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: at the current time...
  • [13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Simple *can* be flexible, but it can also be horribly inflexible by wiring in the options. HTTP is only simple because it uses CRUD, and because it's largely decoupled from the actual content it handles.
  • [13:47] Infinity Linden: we seem to have convergence on doing a lot of messaging by serializing LLSD blobs as XML and sending them over HTTP(S)
  • [13:48] Gwen Hermit: apologies for suddenly disappearing but i must go
  • [13:48] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Gwen
  • [13:48] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: it's okay... happens to the best of us
  • [13:48] Patnad Babii: bye Gwen
  • [13:49] Rex Cronon: tc
  • [13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, so we can leverage the existing protocol by redefining it for XML-LLSD (I assme its possible for IIM) and funnel it straight into the viewer GUI
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: yup
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: that's the idea
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: yay!
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: we have to do some early testing to insure it's not so crappy as to be unusable
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: or
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: maybe we just say it's an interim protocol and move on
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Infi, last week I think it was, some of us were discussing IM in the context of privacy. VWs are going to need end-to-end encryption to provide privacy, since the provider is not a trusted party to the communication. Any ideas on that?
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: lots
  • [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: rifht. Which goes back to having the outward system defined in some way
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: but
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: i can guarantee you... nothing i come up with will be acceptable to everyone
  • [13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine. Encrypted caps
  • [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's why we're discussing it. Multiple designers are likely to come up with a better mechanism than one person alone :-)
  • [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity, I look on this as a starting point, NOT the next Big THing. Something to let us debate functional code
  • [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: or at least, semi-functional...
  • [13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Uh oh, Infi poofed?
  • [13:53] Patnad Babii: and poof the linden goes
  • [13:54] Patnad Babii: yay welcome back :)
  • [13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Wb Infi :-)
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: wow... that was weird
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: the grid must know i'm talking about it
  • [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: Slash Dot demon...
  • [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: or Hack slash, rather
  • [13:55] Infinity Linden: and i'm about 5 minutes from a hard stop
  • [13:55] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:55] Infinity Linden: as always... more discussion on #gridnauts, etc
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: and honestly
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: i should probably start making some diagrams
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: and specific proposals
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: but i'm thinking that IM is going to go through three phases
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: session setup
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: talking (ie jabbering or IMing)
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: and then session teardown
  • [13:57] Morgaine Dinova: Hooray, no collapse phase :-)
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: session setup will be where you identify an endpoint for the communication
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: (yeah.. i intentionally left out the bitch at system 'cause it logs you out phase)
  • [13:58] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [13:58] Infinity Linden: and sounds like there's ore than just spatial, 1:1 and 1:many
  • [13:58] Infinity Linden: for endpoints
  • [13:58] Infinity Linden: but that's fine... we'll work with it
  • [13:58] Infinity Linden: then there's talking
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: where it sounds like there's general approval for the idea of posting messages to a well defined RESTful interface
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: that you got either 'cause you knew the URL or as a cap
  • [13:59] Morgaine Dinova: These are phases per messages, or for the IM subsystem?
  • [13:59] Kerry Giha: What would be the length of time between talking and session tear down. Is that per message or would it expire if Idle.
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: per session
  • [13:59] Morgaine Dinova: Ah
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: and right
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: it would be nice to define a state diagram for an "IM session"
  • [14:00] Morgaine Dinova: So right there we have an implicit design fact --- IM is state based
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: and at some point i'm sure someone is going to want to add "positive ack" to the protocol
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: and we've already had a request for encrypted messages
  • [14:01] Infinity Linden: and i'm praying that no one notices that you can use S/MIME and PKCS#7 with HTTP
  • [14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: suddenly looks up from reading. Hey! Did you know that...?
  • [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: was ojke, not serious comment
  • [14:02] Squirrel Wood: add cake to the protocol. And pie!
  • [14:02] Infinity Linden: and we also have to have a way for someone who's the target of a message to get notification that they should start expecting to see IM messages come down the pike
  • [14:02] Rex Cronon: is already possible to send encrypted messages over sl network:)
  • [14:02] Infinity Linden: either by identifying an explicit EQG-like qeue
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: So what happens when an async message comes in from some other ad hoc system and needs to enter our IM? We have to go through the whole setup, handle and teardown session sequence?
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: or by getting messages into a previously defined queue
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: if it's coming from outside... yes
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: you've got to have an endpoint
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: and in the system as it is today.. that basically means you send UDP or get a cap
  • [14:03] Morgaine Dinova: Maybe the endpoint could set up a single session for it, reusable by all incoming.
  • [14:04] Infinity Linden: i'm sorta thinking that it would be VERY bad to have an URL like [4]
  • [14:05] Infinity Linden: be the place where external agents post their messages too
  • [14:05] Infinity Linden: i.e. - i don't want a protocol endpoint that anyone can post anything to
  • [14:05] Morgaine Dinova: You're equating fixed address with permanently open message box .... it's not so :-)
  • [14:06] Infinity Linden: rather... i would like a system where you might be able to request a session cap from a well known service
  • [14:06] Infinity Linden: okay... with that... i'm gonna have to evaporate
  • [14:06] Kerry Giha: Thanks Infinity :)
  • [14:06] Morgaine Dinova: KK, thanks Infi, GL :-)
  • [14:06] Rex Cronon: bye
  • [14:06] Kerry Giha: Good hour.
  • [14:06] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks Infinity, this is getting exciting (na geeky sort of way)
  • [14:06] Raff Magic: Thank you very much
  • [14:06] Imaze Rhiano: thanks ifinity
  • [14:06] Infinity Linden: yeah... let's keep chatting about it on #gridnauts
  • [14:07] Infinity Linden: and via email
  • [14:07] Infinity Linden: cheers all!