User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 October 14

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  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: so, Zha did you have any plans?
  • [13:04] Zha Ewry: No Zero?
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: yeah, he cancelled for 2-3 weeks in a row due to RL meeting conflicts
  • [13:05] Dahlia Trimble: so was zero coding always broken then?
  • [13:05] Zha Ewry: oooh. Heck. i totaly missed that
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: which is why I thoughtyou meant you'd do a meeting this afernoon
  • [13:05] Zha Ewry: So...
  • [13:05] Zha Ewry: muses for a moment
  • [13:05] Zha Ewry: totally misplaced that
  • [13:06] Zha Ewry: so...
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: poises his spamomatic
  • [13:06] Zha Ewry: Not many peeps here. The next thing I sort of want to gently prod on, is
  • [13:07] Zha Ewry: what we mean by Domain, but.. that sort of is a want Zero handly topic
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: hey whump
  • [13:07] Whump Linden: Howdy
  • [13:07] Raff Magic: Hi!
  • [13:07] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [13:08] Zha Ewry: So, what is the current timeline on missing Zeros?
  • [13:08] Raff Magic: Hiello
  • [13:08] Whump Linden: Not sure. Let me ask.
  • [13:08] Raff Magic: Hello
  • [13:08] Dahlia Trimble: Rex has a new costume
  • [13:08] Zha Ewry: Just a hat, I htink
  • [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: Iron Haaaaag
  • [13:08] Rex Cronon: no. i just added a little accessory:)
  • [13:09] Zha Ewry: You can't have too many accessories
  • [13:09] Whump Linden: Zero regrets to announce that office hours for this week and next are cancelled.
  • [13:09] Rex Cronon: aka the "Magic Iron Hat":)
  • [13:09] Whump Linden: He'll have an announcment out.
  • [13:09] Zha Ewry: nods and pries free 4 hours
  • [13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: ah, we sorta already knokew that ;-) (except Zha)
  • [13:09] Whump Linden: First I knew.
  • [13:09] Zha Ewry: totally missed that somehow
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: And I listend to chat spam at Tiphares, and Heron Island Performance space all weekend too.
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: So I wanted topick peopple's brains a little about OGP and where pyogp might fit in.
  • [13:10] Zha Ewry: listens
  • [13:10] Whump Linden: Ah.
  • [13:10] Whump Linden: Yes.
  • [13:11] Whump Linden: Well, having pyogp provide a test suite to implementations would be a good thing.
  • [13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: corrected a minor mistake in the packet handling, so now all the UDP packets display properly. Enus wants to have a packet-injector option for his testing work
  • [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: so wondering which packets would be the ones to prioritize. Ideally, I want to take the packet parsing code and use that to build a GUI template for all packets, but that's kinda ambitious. Which to do first?
  • [13:12] Zha Ewry: Which packets are you thinking of first?
  • [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: and should I worry about figuring out the EGQ packets?
  • [13:13] Zha Ewry: I think you have, to do the EQQ, ones
  • [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: well, the movement related ones and TP are the most obvious, and pretty easy. Beond that...
  • [13:13] m: Hello,: Avatar!
  • [13:13] Whump Linden: would this be a discussion that someone who's more familiar with the viewer, such as Leyla would be helpful?
  • [13:13] Saijanai Kuhn: probablm,. of course, is that we don't have any public definition for what the EQG looks like unless its the LLSD version of the UDP packets anyway
  • [13:13] Gormih Brezoianu: hello
  • [13:13] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [13:13] Raff Magic: Hello!
  • [13:13] Zha Ewry: Hat;s sort o why I'd like to see them done;-)
  • [13:14] Whump Linden: Hi Gormih.
  • [13:14] m: No: resident named "Zha Ewry" found in the w-hat name2key database
  • [13:14] Gormih Brezoianu: Whump can you help me?
  • [13:14] Whump Linden: with an OGP Beta issue?
  • [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: thinks that Gormih doesn't know what OGP is...
  • [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: either that or the sim has crshed...
  • [13:18] Zha Ewry: hasn't.
  • [13:18] Whump Linden: No, we're all here.
  • [13:18] Zha Ewry: for some epsilon around the value of "here"
  • [13:19] Whump Linden: Saijanai. I think pyogp and OGP would be a good topic for tomorrow's office hours. Let's see if I can get Enus to come by.
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
  • [13:19] Zha Ewry: That'd be supetr
  • [13:19] Whump Linden: But I would like to have test tools in place.
  • [13:19] Zha Ewry: and.. Saij.. one thing I'm looking to see, is how things would perform, TCP vs. UDP
  • [13:19] Whump Linden: So far it's been Leyla, Teravus, and I staring at logs.
  • [13:19] Zha Ewry: We keep talking about that transition, it would be very cool, to actually have some data
  • [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: At this point, there's some oddities in how the packet handling is done. WE need to clean up the ZCA modular stuff and put it outside the classes that evoke it. THere's overhead in retrieving a given module at runtime that we should get rid of if you want accurate timing
  • [13:20] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [13:21] Zha Ewry: To be honest, I'm at least as concerned about total packet sizes, and such, but, yes, fast is always better
  • [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: but I THINK that will be trivial. Just call it in a global var and stick a reference to it in the class
  • [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: yeak packet sizes should be no problem at all.
  • [13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: I could add the packet size to the output right now, if there's a reason to
  • [13:23] Saijanai Kuhn: at leats for UDP. MIght have to dig a little to find the EQG handlign code
  • [13:24] Whump Linden: Okay, I need to get corrections to the OGP teleport draft reviewed, and help get the viewer updates out. So I'm going to run. I'll ask Enus about tomorrow's office hours.
  • [13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: KK
  • [13:25] Xugu Madison: See ya Whump!
  • [13:25] Whump Linden: see you all
  • [13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: hopes he doesn't have appt tomorrow at that time :-/
  • [13:25] Rex Cronon: bye whump
  • [13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: newp
  • [13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: later Whump
  • [13:25] Gormih Brezoianu: bye
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: okies
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: So...
  • [13:26] Dahlia Trimble: quiet meeting
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: One thing would be to start thinking about dual pathing, and loking at what the UDP transition would mean
  • [13:27] Saijanai Kuhn: as in how many pipes should be carrying EQG stuff? We have the EQG and texture cap now, I think. Are you expecting others?
  • [13:27] Zha Ewry: Well, Zero has said, repeatedly, he wanst 90% of the current UDP stuff to go to the TCP pipe
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: Invenotryo almost did once
  • [13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: right, but is that pipe or *pipes*
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: No more than two
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: Unless you really want to bend the http expectatoins
  • [13:29] Dahlia Trimble: would it all go into EventQueueGet?
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: well, we came up with a usecase for sending all grpahical data on a separate path. The rendering engine for those smarktphone servers
  • [13:29] Zha Ewry: Ahh
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: have that on its own dedicated server or servers, and keep less compute intensive data coming in on another comp
  • [13:29] Zha Ewry: well, in general, one should really think of the client as
  • [13:29] Zha Ewry: having a "pesentatoin" service which subscribesto updates and uses it to generate a scene
  • [13:30] Zha Ewry: which may, or may not be dsipalyed locally
  • [13:30] Teravus Ousley: quiet meeting today!
  • [13:31] Teravus Ousley: recalls that zero was out this week
  • [13:31] Rex Cronon: everybody meditating:)
  • [13:31] Dahlia Trimble: zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZ
  • [13:31] Teravus Ousley: 2(two) weeks
  • [13:31] Zha Ewry: and gently prodding pepole to think abour the tcp/.udp tradeoffs and how to measur ebefore cuttin
  • [13:31] Teravus Ousley: ah ha!
  • [13:31] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: Hey Teravus. Put your presentation upon the groupies chat log
  • [13:32] Rex Cronon: i wonder if llName2Key could possibly be part of OGP?
  • [13:32] Teravus Ousley: I saw that.. I even read it I think..
  • [13:33] Teravus Ousley: noticed a missing Zha at the AWG Groupies meeting this morning
  • [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: well, since you typed part of it, its nothing new to you ;-)
  • [13:33] Zha Ewry: RL ate me whole
  • [13:33] Zha Ewry: But, I'm indigestible
  • [13:33] Teravus Ousley: adds some cafination to the room
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: inhales, hoping to catch some caffeine in the air
  • [13:35] Zha Ewry: I would, seriously, like to see the tcp/UDP split examined, thoughtgully aforethought
  • [13:35] Rex Cronon: somebody here besides me that is using channel 1?
  • [13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: wants to see pyogp a major part ofthat examination.
  • [13:35] Teravus Ousley: yes, would be useful.
  • [13:35] Rex Cronon: "faux.goto.nava"?
  • [13:35] Dahlia Trimble: thinks temporal value should be the only distinction
  • [13:35] Zha Ewry: we have a lot of intuitions
  • [13:35] Zha Ewry: we have almost no hard numbers
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: well, that and cost for resending. With all the new caps being placed on downloading services in the USA< that's a real issue for some people
  • [13:36] Dahlia Trimble: would seem quite difficult to get some empirical numbers
  • [13:37] Zha Ewry: Messy, but hardly impossible
  • [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: wel part of the pyogp design was to put implementations of different protocol handlers in different, but compatible, modules. So, we can select which combination of protocols to test for which avie during which run. Trying to allow for multiple avies in the same script so you could have completely different test runs simultaneously
  • [13:38] Teravus Ousley: wonders if the market drag is draging the room down
  • [13:39] Teravus Ousley: IBM is up 1.51% though! :D
  • [13:39] Rex Cronon: what do u mean multiple avies in same script?
  • [13:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Apple just announced their "brick" today. Managed to shave $700 off their high-end laptop price
  • [13:40] Raff Magic: Sorry: I must go. My girlfriend is asking some help... I'll read the transcription on the wiki...
  • [13:41] Rex Cronon: bye raff
  • [13:41] Raff Magic: Glad to meet you!
  • [13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: Rex, the way I have things set up, each avie stores all its data in its own object, and we could have numerous avies talking through numerous ports. If we can get twisted or eventlet working, we're thinking that for non-graphical avies, could have 100-500 of them running in a single script
  • [13:41] Saijanai Kuhn: suitable for scalability testing is the long-run goal
  • [13:41] Rex Cronon: i think more like 1000
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: sounds good to me. THe more the marrier as long as they don't cause noaticable lag
  • [13:42] Teravus Ousley: wonders if that would be a good test.. as .. ~20 seems to be the max per pipe
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: someone said if we paoted it to stackless python we might get 10K avies running, butnot holding my breath there
  • [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: which pipe, Teravus?
  • [13:43] Teravus Ousley: like.. 350KB = 20 avatars max
  • [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: ah,well, as long as we don't have too many threads, text-based avatars dont take up much RAM
  • [13:44] Dahlia Trimble: does twisted scale up?
  • [13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: can put the call to every UDP socket in a single thread. Ditto with the EQG --maybe. Its the hearbeat CAP that will require some thought. 20 second latency
  • [13:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Dahlia I know it does somewhat but not sure how high
  • [13:45] Dahlia Trimble: jhurliman may have some insight into UDP/TCP tradeoffs
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: I'm sure he does. He glanced at my output a few days ago and pointed out the bug to me. I've seen it before so should have noticed :-/
  • [13:46] Dahlia Trimble: he's really studied al that in depth
  • [13:46] Dahlia Trimble: *all
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: yep. I picked his brains. He picked Wireshark's
  • [13:48] Teravus Ousley: Maybe.. this is actually a secret test to see how much we'll get done without Zero
  • [13:48] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [13:49] Teravus Ousley: We're doing superb on that, btw :D
  • [13:50] Teravus Ousley: yay for packet loss today..
  • [13:50] Rex Cronon: talk to your IP
  • [13:50] Dahlia Trimble: its bad.. my viewer keeps freezing
  • [13:50] Rex Cronon: invite him/her over for a beer, and things might work better:)
  • [13:51] Teravus Ousley: anyone got any L$?
  • [13:51] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [13:51] Teravus Ousley: j/k
  • [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: has a premium account and no loand...
  • [13:52] Saijanai Kuhn: land*
  • [13:52] Dahlia Trimble: no 512?
  • [13:52] Rex Cronon: buy an opensim sai:)
  • [13:53] Zha Ewry: OK. I am going to shock some people by being ealry to my 2:00
  • [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: well, first I need to install it on my comp and get OGP working withit
  • [13:53] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [13:53] Saijanai Kuhn: what I really want to see is Tao's code for the AD put into the pyogp distrribution so we can start testing AD interaactions
  • [13:53] Dahlia Trimble: me too... I'm outta here
  • [13:53] Rex Cronon: u can do it:)
  • [13:53] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)
  • [13:54] Rex Cronon: bye everybody
  • [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: later... zha...
  • [13:54] Rex Cronon: i am leaving too
  • [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: /snif
  • [13:54] Rex Cronon: tc
  • [13:54] Saijanai Kuhn: laters
  • [13:54] Teravus Ousley: good byte!