User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 September 30

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  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: hey INfinity
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: hola
  • [13:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Inifinity!
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: you want i should tap Zero on the shoulder
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: and remind him it's 1PM SLT
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden:  ?
  • [13:03] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: brb
  • [13:03] Saijanai Kuhn: sure
  • [13:03] Wrapp Seiling: hello Rex ...
  • [13:03] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [13:03] Gwen Hermit: hi all
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: okay... ladies and gentlemen
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: i'm gonna be the warm-up act while we're waiting for Zero
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: Agenda items?
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: zero's returned?
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: yay
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: one agenda item i've literally just thought up now:
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: RFC for LLSD
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: yup. we'll put that on the agenda
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: as well as other relevant RFCs
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: there has been movement
  • [13:04] Gwen Hermit: RFC-ing in general
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: in that space
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: sure.. anyone going to Minneapolis for the IETF meeting?
  • [13:05] Gwen Hermit: if someone pays for a plane ticket
  • [13:05] Gwen Hermit: lol
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: yeah... i couldn't justify LL letting me go this time
  • [13:05] Kael Platt: Hello everyone.
  • [13:05] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [13:05] Infinity Linden: too much OGP stuff needs getting done
  • [13:06] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
  • [13:06] Hirokii Hyun: OGP?
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: Open Grid Protocol
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: OGP isn't close to requiring IETF involvement :-)
  • [13:06] Infinity Linden: +1 Morgaine
  • [13:06] Gwen Hermit: OGP needs IETF involvement at some point eventually
  • [13:06] Gwen Hermit: yo zero
  • [13:06] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Zero
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's Zero!
  • [13:06] Kael Platt: hey o/
  • [13:06] Rex Cronon: hello zero
  • [13:07] Gwen Hermit: no coffee :O
  • [13:07] Infinity Linden: Gwen brought up the LLSD as an RFC item as an agenda point
  • [13:07] Gwen Hermit: and the more general subject of RFCing stuff
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: who ever built that victorian shower/tub object did a wonderful job ---- only it should have auto shut off!
  • [13:07] Hirokii Hyun: Infinity, you might know this. While I know this is about OGP for the most part; What's going on with the other projects at LL like Windlight?
  • Developement on that seems to have grinded to a halt.
  • [13:07] Hirokii Hyun: No details needed, just wondering if Windlight is still being worked on or if its on a backburner for now
  • [13:08] Zero Linden: the working drain plug is awesome
  • [13:08] Gwen Hermit: other departments handle that thing, right?
  • [13:08] Hirokii Hyun: They do.
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: Hirokii... i'm definitely the wrong person to talk about WRT WindLight
  • [13:08] Zero Linden: yes - they do - and I think, other than bugs, I don't think there is active development on it right now
  • [13:08] Rex Cronon: try salami:)
  • [13:08] Infinity Linden: i'm a server person mostly
  • [13:08] Hirokii Hyun: Ah, thanks, Zero
  • [13:08] Hirokii Hyun: That's what I wanted to know.
  • [13:09] Infinity Linden: i look at a GPU and say "hey! a generic SIMD compute engine!"
  • [13:09] Hirokii Hyun: Lawl.
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: there - coffee
  • [13:09] Hirokii Hyun: Zero; Know if any of the WL project staff run office hours?
  • [13:09] Hirokii Hyun: I can't remember the people involved in WL off the top of my head.
  • [13:09] Hirokii Hyun: Bigpappi is one, isn't he?
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: I don't know, sorry
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: yes - he would be in the WL loop
  • [13:10] Hirokii Hyun: Got it.
  • [13:10] Morgaine Dinova: If we're not overwhelmed with agenda items, could you give us some idea of how server-side is tested at LL? And the state of the QA team in
  • general, operationally.
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: So - welcome all to my Office hours
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: as is well known, but bears repeating - the transcripts are published in the wiki (thanks Tree!)
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: so - speak freely - speak openly
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: So - I hear agenda item #1
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: 1) LLSD RFC
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: others
  • [13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: group IM in OGP (not new design, old design)
  • [13:11] Morgaine Dinova: Good one Sai
  • [13:11] Zha Ewry: As is less well known, latecomers shoudl bring thier own bean bag chairs.
  • [13:12] Teravus Ousley: One that I was going to bring up.. but eventually found a solution to.. is the client only receives the 'No events for you' message in
  • EventQueueGet if it's a HTTP/1.0 response.
  • [13:12] BJ Mayer: that was a bad crash
  • [13:12] Teravus Ousley: but the client doesn't specifically say it wants a 1.0 response.. so many servers say .. it didn't specify.. so we're sending it HTTP/1.1
  • [13:12] Infinity Linden: @Terevus... did you report that one?
  • [13:12] Zero Linden: Teravus - more like if it isn't a KeepAlive
  • [13:13] Teravus Ousley: Well.. I worked for a long time over last weekend trying all sorts of crazy ways to get it to respond.. and the only way it works with with
  • HTTP/1.0 502 Upstream error:
  • [13:13] surface Easterwood: hey . where can a person get a chair?
  • [13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, Whump's here (hiya :P). What was that question we had last time, which was answered with "You should really wait until Whump is here for
  • that." ?
  • [13:13] Zero Linden: The floor has a nice rug....
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: (at least I like it... in fact it is one of the SL things that I see and think - I'd like that in RL!)
  • [13:14] surface Easterwood: yea it is. trade ya?
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: Okay -
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: so let's begin, shall we
  • [13:14] Zero Linden: 1) LLSD RFC
  • [13:15] Zero Linden: Infinity has been very hard at work on getting a draft ready
  • [13:15] Dahlia Trimble: was one published?
  • [13:15] Zha Ewry: Was
  • [13:15] Zero Linden: Not yet.....
  • [13:15] Zha Ewry: I thought I saw one pointed to last night, or night before
  • [13:15] Zha Ewry: skims mail
  • [13:15] Gwen Hermit: there's a very decent specs document on the wiki for LLSD
  • [13:15] Gwen Hermit: would not take much to RFC-alise it
  • [13:16] Gwen Hermit: though i'd like to see other things, like this fancy new LLIDL, all RFC-alised
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: yup. the LLSD RFC will essentially be all the things on the WIKI and in the SPEC rolled up into one document
  • [13:16] Gwen Hermit: and eventually (after this long R&D phase) OGP
  • [13:16] Zha Ewry: [1]
  • [13:16] MistressHolly Lemon: lol sorry
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: Gwen.. i think you will see that "soon"
  • [13:16] Infinity Linden: the definition of "soon" is left as an exercise to the reader
  • [13:17] Gwen Hermit: infinity - how soon? OGP is still under heavy development........
  • [13:17] Gwen Hermit: that would not be my version of soon for one
  • [13:17] MistressHolly Lemon: i have a question as to wether somthing is possible
  • [13:17] Gwen Hermit: the other thing while on RFCs: IANA registration of port numbers - ever going to happen?
  • [13:17] Infinity Linden: Zero... can we do one more round of internal review on the ID and then convert the ID to be the LLSD section of the OGP spec?
  • [13:17] Zero Linden: it will have three parts: 1) type system and data abstraction, 2) serialization formats (XML, JSON & Binary), 3) Description langauge
  • [13:17] MistressHolly Lemon: would holding assets on an opensim and using them on this grid possible?
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: Infinity - let's target later this week for that
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: 'k
  • [13:18] Teravus Ousley:  :D
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: Gwen - this portion will go out sooner than the other parts
  • [13:18] MistressHolly Lemon: i been thinking about the whole 3d import thing
  • [13:18] Infinity Linden: and Gwen... are you talking about registering port numbers for simulators?
  • [13:18] MistressHolly Lemon: its possible on open sim so why not get open sim to send the finished prim over?
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: [Notes second Agenda item: 2) asset location]
  • [13:19] surface Easterwood: have anyone taken notice that there a giant bird in the room?
  • [13:19] Infinity Linden: and people are not wearing enough hats
  • [13:19] Morgaine Dinova: We're not specist here
  • [13:19] Gwen Hermit: infinity - yes
  • [13:19] Gwen Hermit: and for the CAPS stuff too
  • [13:19] Dahlia Trimble: its ok as long as it isnt flying overhead
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: Usually, committees ignore the giant elephant in the room --- I suppose it applies to birds too
  • [13:20] Teravus Ousley: yep.. or the purple dragon
  • [13:20] Zero Linden: adjusts his hat
  • [13:20] MistressHolly Lemon: anyone here know how asset transport would be handled?
  • [13:20] Zha Ewry: I worry at least a smuch as poepl egetting burned by whump
  • [13:20] Zha Ewry: eyes the steam dischage
  • [13:20] Whump Linden: Zha, the warning label would be larger than my avatar.
  • [13:20] Dahlia Trimble: that's CO2 gas ;0
  • [13:20] Morgaine Dinova: He's brewing my tea, leave him alone
  • [13:20] Infinity Linden: hold up MsHolly... let's finish the RFC discussion
  • [13:21] MistressHolly Lemon: ok
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: So - has anyone looked over the IDL stuff yet?
  • [13:21] Infinity Linden: Gwen... can we take that offline... i'd love to get more discussion amongst OpenSim, PyOGP
  • [13:22] Saijanai Kuhn: is in irc all day
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: infinity - we can
  • [13:22] Infinity Linden: i just wanna make sure we know what all the requirements are
  • [13:22] Gwen Hermit: is Gareth everywhere btw - see you on IRC or IM later
  • [13:24] Zha Ewry: The IDL stuff, looks promising.. I was actually wondering if anyone has looked at how hard it owuld be do to a mapping between it and some of the
  • other IDLs
  • [13:24] Gwen Hermit: are there pre-existing IDLs for web services?
  • [13:24] surface Easterwood: maybe we should cut back on the development til the bailout is finalized> you think?
  • [13:24] Infinity Linden: if you mention CORBA IDL, i'll scream
  • [13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: the bailout will never be finalized. IMHO
  • [13:24] Zha Ewry: There are a bunch of them, Gewn, none wonderful
  • [13:25] Gwen Hermit: zha - any of them feasible for our purposes?
  • [13:25] Gwen Hermit: they need not be "wonderful", just "sufficiently clean and STANDARD"
  • [13:25] Zha Ewry: chuckles.
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: points to some soapboxes a few sims away for folks wishing to discuss the bailout....
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: btw... we developed our own DL 'cause it was the minimum for what we needed
  • [13:25] Saijanai Kuhn: shuts his trap
  • [13:25] Gwen Hermit: i'll go with infinity on that....
  • [13:25] Infinity Linden: hopefully this will make it easier to map to other type systems
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: Yeha, I was re-reading it
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: going from LLIDL to CORBA, ASN.1, etc. should be "trivial"
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: and thinking I wonder if thi sis a proper subset of most.
  • [13:26] Zha Ewry: Yeah, it should
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: Zha - I looked at a few dozen --- there aren't many that are general enough to handle REST, yet not so enormous that we wouldn't all run screaming
  • [13:26] Gwen Hermit: one thing that could be cool is a script to take LLIDL and produce stub code for something like mulib
  • [13:26] Infinity Linden: the other way would be easy, as long as descriptions use only bits that are also in LLIDL
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: most of the smaller ones, are all firmly entrenched in RPC
  • [13:26] Gwen Hermit: probably something that belongs in pyogp
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: as the idiom of description
  • [13:27] Morgaine Dinova: And hence unRESTful
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: @Gwen... yeah... that's what we're shooting for
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: or Classes and local callable APIs
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: though
  • [13:27] Zha Ewry: I think.. that we might want to show the mapping up, in a few cases
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: WSDL is somewhat more flexible.... but..... Infinity and Zha will both run screaming....
  • [13:27] Zha Ewry: (and prove we really can, so we shut up the people who say we should use a bigger one)
  • [13:27] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: internally... we have a preference in LL for using dynamic languages
  • [13:27] Gwen Hermit: if we could extend it with proper typing, perhaps default values etc it could be quite powerful for automating new implementations fast
  • [13:27] Gwen Hermit: infinity - i've noticed ;)
  • [13:27] Zha Ewry: I will walk away quitely crying. Much more dignified.
  • [13:27] Infinity Linden: so you don't have to explicitly define types or structures for each message
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: which makes parsers less of an issue
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: but validators... yeah...
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: that's good
  • [13:28] Zha Ewry: I don't htink anyone is going to suggest WSDL, or BPEL, or... anything that heavy
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: I think, our major reasons for wanting an IDL were two-fold
  • [13:28] Infinity Linden: yay! no one's recommending WSDL at Zero's Office Hours!
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: 1) Clear, unambiguous way to specify resource classes in the OGP spec
  • [13:29] Morgaine Dinova: 2) To make Infi feel at home :P
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: 2) Ability to generate good diagnostic information for programmers
  • [13:29] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: drinks to that having spent hours trying to disambiguate things for TP
  • [13:30] Teravus Ousley: <boolean>1</boolean>.... <boolean>true</boolean>
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: Most IDLs are hitting something like point 1 --- but they often have "generate stub code" and/or "dynamically bind" as other reasons
  • [13:30] Infinity Linden: @Teravus... in theory, you should never see <boolean>1</boolean> in the XML serialization
  • [13:30] Gwen Hermit: teravus - i ran into that one
  • [13:30] Gwen Hermit: opensim does 1
  • [13:31] Teravus Ousley: apparently, so does the OGP code..
  • [13:31] Infinity Linden: ugh
  • [13:31] Dahlia Trimble: lol
  • [13:31] Zha Ewry: Its painfully common, Inf.
  • [13:31] Gwen Hermit: code i had to use to get the output of llsd.py recogonised by aditi:
  • [13:31] Gwen Hermit: resp = resp.replace('<?xml version="1.0" ?>',).replace('true','1')
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: you can shoot Phoenix and me for that... we probably should never have allowed both
  • [13:31] MistressHolly Lemon: im guessin that aint lsl
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: you had to remove the XML decl? why?
  • [13:31] Gwen Hermit: zero - it didn't like it
  • [13:32] Zero Linden:  !
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: well - that is f**dup
  • [13:32] Infinity Linden: hmm... i'm thinking we should get the protocol verifier written and use it to identify where our code is messing up
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: not the least is XML well-formedness (not - not validated, just well-formed)
  • [13:33] Zha Ewry: We should
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: (there is little point in running the XML through a validating parser if you are going to run it into a LLSD parser -- since that will essentially
  • validate it as it parses)
  • [13:33] Zha Ewry: it would be nice to be able to say, "Here, it has to meet this, if it doesn't we've goofed"
  • [13:33] Whump Linden: Gwen, would you write up a JIRA and link it to [2]
  • [13:33] Gwen Hermit: whump - remind me with a PM on IRC
  • [13:33] Whump Linden: kk
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: Zha - it is a little tricky with something as mutable as LLSD - and our goal for very ressiliant structures --
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: nods
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: no no... validate the morphology of the message and the lexical goodiness of the LLSD (not the XLM serializatinon)
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: but we will be able to say things like "hmmmm... permissions should have been a map, not an integer" or some such thing
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: I think it's a litle tricky.. but not unsuable.
  • [13:34] Zha Ewry: *undoable (sheesh)(
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: I agree totally
  • [13:34] MistressHolly Lemon: what u goin on about
  • [13:34] MistressHolly Lemon: lol
  • [13:34] Gwen Hermit: you talking about an LLSD validator as in something which validates messages against LLIDL?
  • [13:34] Infinity Linden: yes
  • [13:34] Gwen Hermit: or a more boring XML DTD validation?
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: the former
  • [13:34] Gwen Hermit: the former sounds cool
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: for the "morphology" of the "sentence"
  • [13:35] MistressHolly Lemon: ok head hurts now
  • [13:35] Zha Ewry: The former
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: the dream is this
  • [13:35] MistressHolly Lemon: lol sounds like some kinda xml sl uses
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: you take the XML spec, use XSLT to extract all the sections marked role="LLIDL"
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: you catatenate those together
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: i.e. - the agent_login message DOES contain an identifier and an authenticator, and the authenticator type is one of: 'hash', 'challenge' and
  • 'pkcs5pbkdf2'
  • [13:35] Infinity Linden: that sort of thing
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: you put that in a file called: OGP.llidl
  • [13:36] Infinity Linden: a step up teh stack frmo the XML de-serialization
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: then put that in some config dir and turn on message validation
  • [13:36] Zha Ewry: That is what you'd like to be able to do.. Drive it as much as possible that way.
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: then ... bang ... the code reads the OGP.llidl file, and for each resource class that has an LLIDL entry, checks the morphology
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: and reports errors to a log
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: or - even better - in headers in the responses!
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: well - both
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: One thing we noticed in the early OGP debugging is how hard it was to get some of it right, you'd just get 50X errros. it woudl rock, if the
  • validtaoin could
  • [13:38] Gwen Hermit: fatal errors should give a different HTTP response code
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: "X-LLIDL-Error: request entry foo.bar[3].position needs to be an array of three reals, not a strng"
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: tell you "Hey, that needes a map of 3 integrets here"
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: +127.78 Zero.
  • [13:38] Gwen Hermit: zha and zero: telepathically joined since 2008
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [13:38] Saijanai Kuhn: shudders
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: @gwen... we're working on that one
  • [13:38] Zero Linden: "X-Points: Zha;+1
  • [13:39] Dahlia Trimble: +127.70 Gwen
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: really - we are in different time zones - and don't have a back channel on AIM going
  • [13:39] Gwen Hermit: map(present_avatars, lambda x: x++)
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: +10 to the first person to write that a monad
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: application/llsd+xml ; charset=UTF-8; randommessage="Zero++; Zha++; Gwen++"
  • [13:39] Zha Ewry: wimpers at Infinity
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: uh oh.. i think i might have gone over 72 characters on that line
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: okay - looks like we are ready to hit Agenda Item 2
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: Asset locations
  • [13:40] Morgaine Dinova: Brb, I'll just slip into a continuation
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: MistressHolly - did you want to restate the topic question?
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: refuses to make lisp jokes though she really wants to
  • [13:40] MistressHolly Lemon: yes
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: Monad in Bernaise sauce, anyone?
  • [13:40] MistressHolly Lemon: i had some suggestions towards the 3d import
  • [13:41] MistressHolly Lemon: cross grid
  • [13:41] MistressHolly Lemon: could it be imported on opensim then a finished product be sent to this grid
  • [13:41] Gwen Hermit: i'd think the idea of cross-grid import dies if we have proper URLs for assets rather than IDs
  • [13:42] MistressHolly Lemon: my idea is to stream the data like you would media
  • [13:42] MistressHolly Lemon: but from grid to grid
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: Or to put it another way, we've been generally thinking of assets as URL addressable bundles of bits --- and hence they aren't so much imported
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: as they are referenced
  • [13:42] Tree Kyomoon: would be interesting to have a professional "content developer" grid or client you could post finished content to
  • [13:42] MistressHolly Lemon: like obj 3ds
  • [13:42] Gwen Hermit: zero++
  • [13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: [3]
  • [13:42] MistressHolly Lemon: its all just verts
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: but how does that map to "objcet portability"
  • [13:42] Zha Ewry: And you need to be vert careful about
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: Once they have URLs, assuming they are HTTP or HTTPS URLs then they are fetched via HTTP
  • [13:42] Zha Ewry: what you are speaking of
  • [13:42] Infinity Linden: when you want to move frmo one agent domain to another?
  • [13:42] Gwen Hermit: morgaine - everyone knows the universe is coded in cython ;)
  • [13:42] Zha Ewry: Asset offline, asset in a sim, asset on an ave, etc.
  • [13:42] Dahlia Trimble: SL™ doesnt work well with verts
  • [13:43] MistressHolly Lemon: the open sim can handle imporing
  • [13:43] MistressHolly Lemon: could that interpreted data then be sent to this grid
  • [13:43] Zero Linden: groans that the utter truth to that xkcd
  • [13:43] Gwen Hermit: mistressholly - if you have the right asset fetch protocol
  • [13:44] surface Easterwood: ok i im you all keep me informed of the progress. nice to see you all hard at work .goodby , and have a nice day
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: quantum mechanics runs on lisp for certain........
  • [13:44] MistressHolly Lemon: i see so open sim and linden would need to work very closely for it to be a reality
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: later, Surface
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: heh, OGS's OpenAsset already uses a nice REST protocol
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: only thing that sucks is the serialisation used
  • [13:44] Gwen Hermit: it's an XML file with a binary blob embedded as base64
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: ouch
  • [13:45] Teravus Ousley: well, maybe we could write a web service for importing 'content'.. but.... we still have not identified all of the 'trust' factors yet.
  • [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, that xkcd is not just a good joke, but a sad reflection on the state of computing today.
  • [13:45] Zha Ewry: The issues, have far more to do with getting permisions and trust and policy right than moving the prims
  • [13:45] MistressHolly Lemon: hmmm what if it were possible to convert it to a format sl understands
  • [13:45] Latha Serevi: Do we have, or are we considering, any way for two assets, at URLs on two different servers, to be "the same" or "derived" objects in any way? Or
  • do we assume that a copy has no relation to the original?
  • [13:45] MistressHolly Lemon: the normal prims r xml correct?
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: right - we can talk of moving the prims / textures / animations / sounds/ etc.... just as we do today on the web
  • [13:45] Zero Linden: the trust issues come in with deciding to give someone access to those bits or no
  • [13:45] Gwen Hermit: [4]
  • [13:45] Gwen Hermit: an example
  • [13:46] Gwen Hermit: that URL works in a regular browser
  • [13:46] Dahlia Trimble: Latha, a copy is usually a reference until it's been rezzed
  • [13:46] Gwen Hermit: (btw, that one isn't actually opensim, it's pygrid - but same format)
  • [13:46] Latha Serevi: Dahlia, that seems unrelated to my question.
  • [13:46] Infinity Linden: Morgaine, we did not hack SL up in perl. we used python
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: wonders how those XMLSchema namespaces made it into that document....
  • [13:46] MistressHolly Lemon: hmmm so qarl uses maya?
  • [13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: yeah, I noticed, or the startup time would be faster ;P
  • [13:47] Gwen Hermit: zero - ask Guido
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: Latha - I think it would be best if we can make the assumption that once copied - at the protocol level, they are distinct
  • [13:48] Gwen Hermit: question - will we still have asset UUIDs in the great future?
  • [13:48] Gwen Hermit: or will we just use URLs everywhere?
  • [13:48] Zha Ewry: REST would storngly imply thy are different URLs
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: Well - URLs everywhere is lovely and general
  • [13:48] Zha Ewry: You've created a new resource, it gets a new URL
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: I did some handcoding and benchmarking on Parrot yesterday, was fun. It's disastrously slow, even in optimized mode. It must be jam packed
  • with debug or something.
  • [13:49] Gwen Hermit: i'd be concerned that URLs can have the content behind them change while assets today are immutable i believe?
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: BUT for some uses, UUIDs are worth the compactness ... but I think in those situations, it is like the UUID has a "base URL" that they are off of
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: the benefit of UUID based addressing is that if you add a registration, you can have object portability
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: but the benefit of URL based addressing is that it doesn't require registration
  • [13:49] Zha Ewry: the problem is naked UUIDs kill you
  • [13:49] Zero Linden: Gwen - assets being immutable under REST is equivalent to saying you can cache it forever
  • [13:49] Gwen Hermit: i like the base URL idea for some uses, but should it be enforced on the protocol level?
  • [13:50] Dahlia Trimble: "naked" URLs
  • [13:50] Gwen Hermit: for legacy things, that makes sense
  • [13:50] Dahlia Trimble:  ?
  • [13:50] Gwen Hermit: Zero - a TTL?
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: Zha... assuming there was a great registry in ths sky where you could resolve the URL for a UUID
  • [13:50] Gwen Hermit: for most assets the TTL could be 0 (forever)
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: would it still kill you?
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: Yeah, I think it would
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: I don't think anything in the system today relies on the property that, once forgotten, if you refetch the asset you'll get the same bits
  • [13:50] Gwen Hermit: that great registry would of course be LL ;)
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: that is a subtle difference, but an important one
  • [13:50] Tree Kyomoon: controlled by diebold of course
  • [13:50] Gwen Hermit: you just saved your business model ;)
  • [13:50] Gwen Hermit: become ICANN for assets
  • [13:51] Teravus Ousley: diebold.. haha
  • [13:51] MistressHolly Lemon: eeeer did anyone get what i was trying to tell you?
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: we could say things are URIs
  • [13:51] MistressHolly Lemon: the obj format
  • [13:51] MistressHolly Lemon: is just numbers of what should go where
  • [13:51] Gwen Hermit: mistressholly - the cross-grid thing and importing?
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Well, it may be controlled by Verisign ultimately, because of certs, and they are every bit as clueless as Diebold.
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: then if they have the form ['http://somwhere.com/asset/something'] then it's interpreted as a URL and accessed
  • [13:51] Dahlia Trimble: MistressHolly, nothing is SL™ is compatable with .obj format
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: ahem
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: may we stop critisizing VeriSign?
  • [13:52] MistressHolly Lemon: no but its possible to take that data and change it?
  • [13:52] Zero Linden: Yes, currently object format is a collection of prim parameters, texturing information, and contents (which are references to other assets, with
  • permission controls on 'em)
  • [13:52] Gwen Hermit: sculpties and other mess
  • [13:52] Rex Cronon: into sculpties
  • [13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: no, it's fun, and accurate :P
  • [13:52] Gwen Hermit: i like the "if it's a UUID, just ask your local region domain for it, if it's a URL, go fishing"
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: it's also a system i am very proud of
  • [13:53] MistressHolly Lemon: well what if you could map it if that makes sense
  • [13:53] Gwen Hermit: where does UUID resolution belong?
  • [13:53] Zero Linden: As in, access it directly off the original domain?
  • [13:53] MistressHolly Lemon: take the xml normal prims use and allow extra faces
  • [13:53] Zha Ewry: If you have contextt, you're OK
  • [13:53] Zha Ewry: its the naked UUID that kills you
  • [13:53] MistressHolly Lemon: sub deviding
  • [13:53] Gwen Hermit: winks at morgaine
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: oh oh.. .Zha.. .i see what you're saying
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: but URLs in this system aer naked as well
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: without context
  • [13:54] Gwen Hermit: zha - the naked UUID can be resolved against your local simulator
  • [13:54] Tree Kyomoon: could we get those UPC guys to handle UUIDs?
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: unless you allow introspection for all caps
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: That's context
  • [13:54] Gwen Hermit: the local simulator could even give a UUID to cached assets which were originally URLs
  • [13:54] Zero Linden: URLs are not naked..... so long as they are not relative-URLs
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: @Tree.. lol
  • [13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: you can't be proud of their DNS error hijacking, nor of the lack of training in their front desk, surely :-)
  • [13:54] Infinity Linden: i'll have to get a tattoo of the bar code of my UUID
  • [13:54] Tree Kyomoon: in your RFID chip of course
  • [13:54] Zha Ewry: The point, being that you need to be very careful to never let naked UUIDs escaep from thier context
  • [13:54] Gwen Hermit: on the right hand
  • [13:55] Teravus Ousley: .. yep.. those new ones that 'can't be duplicated...... yet'
  • [13:55] Gwen Hermit: hey.... in SL we all have a number which controls whether we can buy or sell!
  • [13:55] Infinity Linden: Morgaine. .let's take this offline. this is not the forum for you to describe problems you've heard other people have with VeriSign
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: Uhm, as amusing as it is to discuss the failings of other companies... let's leave that for a session conducted over beer
  • [13:55] Tree Kyomoon: mmm naked UUID's
  • [13:56] Gwen Hermit: not a byte left to the imagination!
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: it's oky... we can say "naked UUID" here... it's a mature region
  • [13:56] Gwen Hermit: can we BE naked UUIDs?
  • [13:56] Gwen Hermit: gets a large transparent prim with nothing but a UUID on it and wears it.....
  • [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Good idea Zero .... although what we've just heard is "interesting"
  • [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: MistressHolly seems to me that you need to check what folks have been saying in the jiras about handling.obj format vs new tools for content creation
  • [13:56] Gwen Hermit: i don't think there's going to be a clean way to map OBJs straight to SL
  • [13:56] Gwen Hermit: better to export in a higher level foramt
  • [13:56] MistressHolly Lemon: maybe not obj
  • [13:56] Gwen Hermit: *format
  • [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: [5]
  • [13:57] MistressHolly Lemon: but obj is easily converted
  • [13:57] Gwen Hermit: VRML?
  • [13:57] Gwen Hermit: lol
  • [13:57] Zha Ewry: I'm compelled to gently mention Collada edge format
  • [13:57] Rex Cronon: obj is possible
  • [13:57] Teravus Ousley: well, the UDP protocol doesn't define anything for obj
  • [13:57] Teravus Ousley: therefore.. you don't see them..
  • [13:57] Saijanai Kuhn: From Qarl: hey all - i'm trying to gather resident feedback for an internal LL debate. the question is - do residents want LL to spend more resources on
  • A) allowing mesh import or B) improving existing modeling tools. sorry for the vagueness here - mainly i'm trying for a general feel for resident sentiment.
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: i don't think there's going to be much X3D stuff ehre
  • [13:58] Dahlia Trimble: obj files can be huge and would need to be segmented before transferred
  • [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: [6]
  • [13:58] Rex Cronon: udp doesn't define things for lots of things, but does it matter?
  • [13:58] Gwen Hermit: sai - your sid is showing ;)
  • [13:58] Gwen Hermit: i think meshes should be assets
  • [13:58] Morgaine Dinova: Surely it would be better to work on full support for extensible types, and then anyone can make mesh formats or whatever. Having LL work on
  • one specific new types is just time wasted.
  • [13:58] Gwen Hermit: a new asset type
  • [13:58] Infinity Linden: okay... if Zha gets to mention Collada... i get to mention the idea that we store everything as nurbs
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: security breech!
  • [13:58] Gwen Hermit: and let you assign a mesh to a prim
  • [13:58] MistressHolly Lemon: mesh prims
  • [13:59] Dahlia Trimble: obj can do nurbs
  • [13:59] Tree Kyomoon: yay nurbs
  • [13:59] Gwen Hermit: sai - unless JIRA is sane enough to use IP tieing, logout
  • [13:59] Rex Cronon: not all obj r huge
  • [13:59] Zha Ewry: laughs
  • [13:59] Saijanai Kuhn: I c licked on the link in the jira
  • [13:59] Infinity Linden: @Morgaine.. yes... if you have no installed base you can say that
  • [13:59] Zha Ewry: Not general Collada, just.. the edge format
  • [13:59] Gwen Hermit: you'd be surprised how many places DON'T tie sessions to IPs.....
  • [13:59] Tree Kyomoon: wants bezier control handles on all the points in SL
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: Gwen - it appears to be sane enough
  • [13:59] Gwen Hermit:  :)
  • [13:59] Gwen Hermit: mesh prims would be a rather sexy idea
  • [14:00] Dahlia Trimble: wants bezier handles on her avatar ;)
  • [14:00] Zha Ewry: Next logical step from scuplties, in many ways
  • [14:00] Infinity Linden: Tree and i are going to run off and make nurbs prims
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: Gwen - you can't always - some people are behind HTTP proxies that use blocks of IPs in rotation and don't have "stickiness"
  • [14:00] Gwen Hermit: i'd get myself (literally - the actual me) scanned in 3D and then make the phrase "i got a virtual sex change" MEAN something
  • [14:00] MistressHolly Lemon: that is the exact thing i have been trying to talk about gwen
  • [14:00] Tree Kyomoon: and procedural prims. mmm procedural prims...and textures..mmmm...
  • [14:00] Gwen Hermit: mistress - you weren't clear on it
  • [14:00] MistressHolly Lemon: taking the idea of sculpties and getting rid of the restrictions
  • [14:00] Saijanai Kuhn: so anyway, guess my topic won't be raised. title said it all anyway
  • [14:00] Gwen Hermit: replace sculpty textures with meshes
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: wonders where the compute power for a region with 1000 procedural prims is going to come from....
  • [14:01] Gwen Hermit: zero - limit the number of meshes per region
  • [14:01] Latha Serevi: I'm thinking of trying to ask my object-identity question again a different way. Or should I save that for some other time?
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: Infi: well there is no installed base for a mesh type that doesn't exist. And we have to have extensible primitives in OGP or else we'll be
  • stuck in the current backwater forever instead of making a protocol for the future.
  • [14:01] MistressHolly Lemon: could a sculpt just as easily be called from a file rather than an image?
  • [14:01] Dahlia Trimble: its a viewer problem ;)
  • [14:01] Gwen Hermit: physics
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: offers to sell you a rack of bluegenes
  • [14:01] Tree Kyomoon: nanotubes and graphenes of course!
  • [14:01] Rex Cronon: i think that obj is the bnext logical step:)
  • [14:01] Gwen Hermit: physics!
  • [14:01] Infinity Linden: @Zero.. .GPGPU
  • [14:01] MistressHolly Lemon: obj isnt complex its just vertex locations
  • [14:01] MistressHolly Lemon: alot like a sculptys map
  • [14:01] Whump Linden: Saij, we can hold it for tomorrows' OO, and Morgaine's question too.
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: idly calculates the commision
  • [14:01] Dahlia Trimble: obj is a lot more than vertices
  • [14:01] Rex Cronon: and facets
  • [14:01] Saijanai Kuhn: morgaine did you see what Avi Bar-Zeev saidabout the original primitives design he worked o for SL?
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: Got a link Sai?
  • [14:02] Gwen Hermit: the physics would be the chokepoint on mesh prism
  • [14:02] Gwen Hermit: *prims
  • [14:02] MistressHolly Lemon: yes but it will take no more time than 50 sculpts
  • [14:02] Tree Kyomoon: gives people a reason to upgrade their video cards anyway
  • [14:02] Gwen Hermit: hmm.... how about PhysX cards on the LL sims?
  • [14:02] Gwen Hermit: would that help any?
  • [14:02] Gwen Hermit: offload from the CPU
  • [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: [7]
  • [14:02] Zha Ewry: Not so much, Gwn, unles syou get Havok to really support that
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: Ta
  • [14:02] Gwen Hermit: or are these hardware physics accelerators really that crap
  • [14:02] MistressHolly Lemon: hmmmmm what about streaming it rather than uploading
  • [14:02] Gwen Hermit: Zha - i'm talking about replacing havok
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: @Gwen... we would need a version of havoc that used the NVidia GPGPU interface
  • [14:03] Gwen Hermit: ok, granted - that's rather a bigger task
  • [14:03] Tree Kyomoon: I thought we were going plug and play with the physics engine?
  • [14:03] Dahlia Trimble: hits up rl for a change... bye all :)
  • [14:03] Gwen Hermit: bye
  • [14:03] Rex Cronon: bye dahlia
  • [14:03] Saijanai Kuhn: won't Havok more likely support Intel's new design than NVIdia?
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: and changing physics engines right now is probably not somethign that's gonna geta lot of traction
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: wellllllll...
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: it is that time!
  • [14:03] Gwen Hermit: yeah, indeed
  • [14:03] Zero Linden: thanks for all coming
  • [14:03] Gwen Hermit: it's over?
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: aren't PhysX cards from nvidia?
  • [14:03] Rex Cronon: bye zero
  • [14:03] Gwen Hermit: nnnnnooooooooooooo
  • [14:03] Tree Kyomoon: can someone pass me a transcript from the beginning?