User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2009 Jan 27

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  • [12:56] Infinity Linden: hey folks!
  • [12:56] Kyrah Abattoir: hi
  • [12:56] Tray Guisse: wel met
  • [12:56] G2 Proto: hey Infinity!
  • [12:56] Infinity Linden: so... Zero is expected today
  • [12:57] G2 Proto: I think so
  • [12:57] Infinity Linden: so yay! you don't have to listen to me say "lemme ask zero" in response to every question
  • [12:57] G2 Proto: lol
  • [12:57] Tillie Ariantho: Hello there. :)
  • [12:58] Infinity Linden: so.. in other news..
  • [12:58] Infinity Linden: i finally went to a furry convention
  • [12:58] G2 Proto: hello Tillie!
  • [12:58] Saijanai Kuhn: gasps
  • [12:58] G2 Proto: oh wow I am still not even 100% sure what a furry is yet
  • [12:58] Infinity Linden: i figured that i should probably go, seeing as there's a whole bunch of furries in SL
  • [12:58] G2 Proto: Im afraid to know I think
  • [12:59] Tillie Ariantho: A furry is a heap of sculpted prims? :)
  • [12:59] Infinity Linden: like everything else in the world... there's a perfectly respectable layer of funness.. but if you dig deep enough, i'm sure you'll find people doing things you don't approve of
  • [12:59] Infinity Linden: like burning man or SL
  • [12:59] Morgaine Dinova: 'Afternoon
  • [12:59] Tray Guisse: Havent been to one and do not plan on going anytime soon lol
  • [12:59] G2 Proto: ahh great explanation
  • [12:59] Tillie Ariantho: All the furries I met yet are rather funny and nice to talk to. :-)
  • [12:59] Infinity Linden: "mostly harmless" is my description
  • [13:00] G2 Proto: ok cool good to know
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: yeah... that's one of the reasons i went
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: i've yet to meet a fur who's... uh... offensive
  • [13:00] Tray Guisse: some of the do leave me to wondering though
  • [13:00] G2 Proto: very cool
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: i'm sure they're out there... just that they're probably offensive cause they're just offensive people, not because they're furries
  • [13:00] Infinity Linden: so
  • [13:00] Saijanai Kuhn: this mornings meeting: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27
  • [13:01] Infinity Linden: yeah... had a good time... bought some neko ears
  • [13:01] Imaze Rhiano: Hola!
  • [13:01] Tillie Ariantho: Sai, I have seen the group limit jira entry has been triaged some time ago, do you know any details of that? ^^
  • [13:01] Saijanai Kuhn: not a cue sorry
  • [13:01] Tillie Ariantho: too bad.
  • [13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Infinity is the group IM expert :-)
  • [13:02] Infinity Linden: hmm... lemme see if i can track down zero
  • [13:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: kk... zero's on his way
  • [13:03] Kyrah Abattoir: so what's this office hour about?
  • [13:03] Imaze Rhiano: hierarchical linking?
  • [13:03] Infinity Linden: here's Zero.. let's let him announce the subject (or call for agenda items)
  • [13:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Zero
  • [13:04] Kyrah Abattoir: hierarchical linking is the new havok4
  • [13:04] Zero Linden: and there I was, happily, blissfully coding in python when.... bing! 1pm shows up
  • [13:04] Kyrah Abattoir: hello zero
  • [13:04] Rex Cronon: hello zero
  • [13:04] Zero Linden: hello all
  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: misses being able to say "Good Morning Teacher"
  • [13:04] Teravus Ousley: naps
  • [13:04] Saijanai Kuhn: /snif
  • [13:04] Infinity Linden: hmm.. we're missing Zha
  • [13:05] Saijanai Kuhn: This mornings meeting: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27
  • [13:05] Zero Linden: welllllllll
  • [13:05] Kyrah Abattoir: so that's the office hour where we suggest to Linden labs our wildest dreams?
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: Welcome to my office hours
  • [13:06] Saijanai Kuhn: OpenSim Agent Domain code, and how to extend the AD and/oir integrate with Hypergrid, were topics
  • [13:06] Kyrah Abattoir: you're welcome zero :)
  • [13:06] G2 Proto: hey Zero
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: We are here to talk about the architecture of Second LIfe, past, present and future... .but mostly future
  • [13:06] Kyrah Abattoir: well
  • [13:06] Zero Linden: As always, this meeting is open and public - and recorded transcripts are placed in the wiki by the community ---
  • [13:07] Kyrah Abattoir: do i start then? :p
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: Well - first
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: waves
  • [13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: frantically as he transcribes
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: I call for agenda items
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: 1) Status of Linden Lab stuff
  • [13:07] Zero Linden: listens for items
  • [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: you've been prepping for #1 for the past year;-)
  • [13:08] Saijanai Kuhn: think we'll give you all the time you need to go intodetail
  • [13:08] Zero Linden: okay - well, then, I'll get that one over with quickly:
  • [13:08] Morgaine Dinova: chuckles
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: Back in Decemeber we let you know that we were still deep in planning process for OGP and that we'd be ready to discuss our plans by the end of January
  • [13:09] Zero Linden: that is all still true ---
  • [13:09] Saijanai Kuhn: weeps quietly
  • [13:09] Kyrah Abattoir: ogp?
  • [13:09] Kyrah Abattoir: online grid privacy?
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: I had hoped to be able to announce and discuss here, but the only time we could get with M Linden (CEO) to ensure we were all in agreement was tomorrow morning
  • [13:10] Saijanai Kuhn: open grid protocol --metaverse of SL, OpenSim and whoever else wants to join the part
  • [13:10] Tillie Ariantho: Old grand pa. .)
  • [13:10] Kyrah Abattoir: aaah this .. kay.
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: so while the plan has been internally agreed upon... I'm waiting for the executive "thumbs up".....
  • [13:10] Morgaine Dinova: So shall we revive the Tursday OH slot?
  • [13:10] Zero Linden: ... but we are on track for messaging before the end of the week
  • [13:11] Infinity Linden: weeps at the suggestino we meet at 8:30 AM
  • [13:11] Brookston Holiday: messagin = blog post?
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: So - there --- that is the item 1
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: done
  • [13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: could pass a notecard to groupies
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: no, e-mail to SLDev
  • [13:11] Morgaine Dinova: I mean revive Thursday slot so you can present the results of chat with M :-)
  • [13:11] Brookston Holiday: aha
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: followed by my meeting and disucssing things here next Tuesday
  • [13:11] Zero Linden: No thanks, I'll wait until Tuesday....
  • [13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: knows the agenda for AW Gropuies meeting tuesday, he thinks...
  • [13:12] Zero Linden: okay - other itmes?
  • [13:13] Tillie Ariantho: for europeans a time between 10am SLT and 2pm SLT might be good. :-)
  • [13:14] Morgaine Dinova: Is that revelation next Tuesday effectively going to explain the 4-month absence that so puzzled us?
  • [13:15] Latif Khalifa: dramatic pause
  • [13:15] Zero Linden: I will leave that question until Tuesday
  • [13:15] Latif Khalifa: ((drumroll))
  • [13:15] Zero Linden:  ;-)
  • [13:15] Saijanai Kuhn: rimshot
  • [13:15] Morgaine Dinova: Not sure I see the merit of mystery, but OK.
  • [13:16] Saijanai Kuhn: all part of same issue, IOW
  • [13:16] Latif Khalifa: "don't make the big boss mad" merits it haha
  • [13:16] Zero Linden: don't make the big boss mad is a very good incentive in general....
  • [13:16] Morgaine Dinova: Jeez, I hope that's not the driving force
  • [13:17] Imaze Rhiano: that is ebil... like telling for kids that big news next week... behave if you want to hear it! :P
  • [13:17] Kyrah Abattoir: so when are we going to see opensim sims running side by side with an LL sim? :)
  • [13:17] Zero Linden: no, don't go jumping to all sorts of conclusions --- it is perfectly reasonable and rational that the CEO of a tech. company would want to be absolutely sure that he and the execs were all on the same page with something as important as standards and interoperability strategy
  • [13:18] Catherine Pfeffer: indeed
  • [13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: Oh, you better not shriek you better not groan, you better not howl, you better not moan... Gerat Pumpkin is coming to town,,,
  • [13:18] Zero Linden: so - no mystery, no intrigue, no "trying to read the state of Soviet politics analysing who's standing next to whom in newspaper photos"
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: So - I'll through something out there:
  • [13:19] Morgaine Dinova: OK, let's find another topic to break the pregnant silence
  • [13:19] Saijanai Kuhn: consults Prokofy, Resident Kremlinologist
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: What do you all think of Hypergrid?
  • [13:19] Imaze Rhiano: fine... what about that "Prim and Object Hierarchy" [(http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Prim_and_Object_Hierarchy)] thingy... what we talked about AW meeting?
  • [13:19] Kyrah Abattoir: quick summary?
  • [13:19] Zero Linden: (pretty sure *that'll* break the silence!)
  • [13:19] Imaze Rhiano: hypergrid is way to go
  • [13:20] Saijanai Kuhn: only if you're not a content creator or RL business, Imaze
  • [13:20] Kyrah Abattoir: as long as no asset transfer, sure.
  • [13:20] PouletFritesMayO Boucher: miam all
  • [13:20] G2 Proto: love Hypergrid!
  • [13:20] Morgaine Dinova: Hypergrid is just an indication that there's no time to hang around contemplating the best way of doing something for years, as you'll be left behind.
  • [13:21] G2 Proto: we are all HG'd up on our grid if you want I am giving tours of the jump points this week and next, just had Nink from IBM over he lovedit, real eye openner
  • [13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: sorta like Windows vs Mac...
  • [13:21] Kyrah Abattoir: i'm fine with hypergrid, as long as the assets stay in their respective grids.
  • [13:21] Zha Ewry: counts the number of watermellons Torley Rezes each morning as a portent
  • [13:21] Zero Linden: wonders how you teleport somewhere and *not* have your assets go to a different grid
  • [13:21] Zha Ewry: I'm fine with hypergrid, as long as asset movement is subhect to policy and securable ;-)
  • [13:22] Kyrah Abattoir: hypergrid for what i read is what i've always dreamed off, some way to add a completely controlled game grid side by side with a residential LL owned set of sims
  • [13:22] Latif Khalifa: Imaze, it would be a mojor undertaking to switch to hierachical object linking at this point me thinks
  • [13:22] Morgaine Dinova: Those who don't want their assets to go to a different grid are of course entitled to make themselves obsolete.
  • [13:22] Latif Khalifa: major even
  • [13:22] Kyrah Abattoir: Morgaine the problem is that by definition those grids are untrusted
  • [13:23] Tillie Ariantho: Zha: so TPing to another grid might mean that you arrive nude because all your stuff is meant to not leave the source grid? ,)
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: Well - I think, as I understand it, a bigger concern is that you must ceed access to your user server to the remote grid
  • [13:23] Infinity Linden: i think what Kyrah is saying is that you should have the ability to rez an object that lives in an asset server that's not affiliated with the administrative domain that runs the sim you're connected to
  • [13:23] Zha Ewry: No. Depends on the grids and what you are wearing
  • [13:23] Imaze Rhiano: it is going to break economical model like in SL - but you can't prevent that in open sim environment where you must assume that sim owner is not most honest person
  • [13:23] Zero Linden: well - WAIT a bit here folks
  • [13:23] Zha Ewry: But, simplly teleporting to another grid shoudl not cause my Corporate confidential document to appear on an untrusted sim
  • [13:23] Tillie Ariantho: Imaze: true
  • [13:24] Morgaine Dinova: People will want to move around the grids of the metaverse. Either they wear the clothes that you sell them in SL, or they won't wear your clothes, it's that simple.
  • [13:24] Zero Linden: we are spinning on several different threads, many of which have reasonable seperable conculsions
  • [13:24] Kyrah Abattoir: i don't think losing 80% of the content creators of SL in the process would be the way to go.
  • [13:24] G2 Proto: we suggest for now users have a HG avatar for our grid with min assets/inv
  • [13:24] G2 Proto: but were mostly linking within our own clients not too many outtside untrusted grids
  • [13:24] Saijanai Kuhn: notes that can becalled MCC: Metaverse Creative Commons licensed
  • [13:25] Kyrah Abattoir: but ther eis a side of hypergrid that tickle an old dream of mine, like you enter this medieval grid, and your avtar suit in it's medieval atires, you come back in sl and you are back in your SL clothes.
  • [13:25] Zero Linden: 1) If an avatar with itmes from Grid A TP's to Grid B, what is the policy that controls if they can rez the items from A in a region in B
  • [13:26] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: the item protection argument can rage forever. Why don't you provide a quick and simple interop permissions bit for objects right now (default off), so that everyone else can proceed freely with object interop with objects marked that way?
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: 2) If an avatar TP's into a region in grid B, what control of that avatar does this ceed to B?
  • [13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: Kyrah that can be done with an Agent Domain model also
  • [13:26] Morgaine Dinova: Otherwise this argument will go on forever.
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: There is no argument here, as far as I see
  • [13:26] Imaze Rhiano: [1] "... When inventory is accessed, the hypergrid wrapper checks if the user is foreign and, if she is, the wrapper simply brings the necessary assets from the user's asset server to the local asset cache and server; from then on, the wrapper passes the control to the existing inventory access functions...."
  • [13:26] Zero Linden: Nor any real issue at this point
  • [13:27] Kyrah Abattoir: well scripts might be a problem, you can't be sure the grid you are accessing will run under the same script engine, if it has a script engine at all.
  • [13:27] Zero Linden: Imaze, doesn't that mean the grid has access to the foreign user's inventory?
  • [13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: when rezzed at least
  • [13:28] G2 Proto: it does yes
  • [13:28] Kyrah Abattoir: i think assets separation should be kept, smart content creators will offer "multi grid" objcts.
  • [13:28] Zero Linden: Isn't that, well, a security concern?
  • [13:28] G2 Proto: yes but within our network of grids are all our clients
  • [13:28] G2 Proto: and we are doing as was just said working out multigrid permissions
  • [13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: G2 Proto so you're guaranteeing trust within a specific network of grids....
  • [13:28] Kyrah Abattoir: either transferable from grid to grid, or simply simultaneously given on all the grids they are doing business on.
  • [13:29] Morgaine Dinova: It's not a security concern for items marked as "interoperable" .... hence the question earlier. Why not simply provide an interop bit and avoid this discussion?
  • [13:29] Morgaine Dinova: Sounds to me like you're dragging out the argument on purpose.
  • [13:29] Saijanai Kuhn: morgain who pays LL for being the asset server to 1 milion external grids?
  • [13:29] Zero Linden: Okay - so, HyperGrid works only amongst a community of trusting peers
  • [13:29] G2 Proto: right were only doing this trust with the clients of ReactionGrid
  • [13:29] G2 Proto: who agree to the HG policy were writing
  • [13:30] G2 Proto: yes Zero thats right
  • [13:30] Kyrah Abattoir: how do you handle then when the objects, even with the interop bit are not compatible with the software the foreign grid is running on? i advance the hyptohesis that not all the grids of hypergrid will run the exact same sim code.
  • [13:30] G2 Proto: its very tricky right now
  • [13:30] Zero Linden: Ah- okay - don't get me wrong, that's fine --- it just doesn't allow grids with any degree of mutual warriness to work
  • [13:30] G2 Proto: You are cortrect Zero
  • [13:30] G2 Proto: correct
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: Morgaine - I dont' think you are addressing the issue at all
  • [13:31] Saijanai Kuhn: hears that HyperGrid bypasses the problem that the AWG has debated for over a year with a "we trust each other, that's all.."
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: the issue isn't assets - we understand the framework that will have to exist to make those exchangable when warranted
  • [13:31] G2 Proto: hah yes right now thats the policy
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: the issue is control of the user data -- which is quite a different matter
  • [13:31] Kyrah Abattoir: but if they aren't exchangeable what will happen?
  • [13:31] Zero Linden: For example
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: kyrah - we MIME type 'em and call it a day... ;-)
  • [13:32] Brookston Holiday: "MIME type"??
  • [13:32] Saijanai Kuhn: or instute a conversion process (optional)
  • [13:32] Kyrah Abattoir: i mean one grid could use C# as it's script engine for all we know.
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: For example: Consider your profile ---
  • [13:32] Zero Linden: that is data stored in the User Server ---
  • [13:32] G2 Proto: thats true and on each grid you can specify by sim wheteher it uses C# etc
  • [13:32] Latif Khalifa: Sai, right, feels like endless loop of replay of the same discussion, over and over again :P
  • [13:32] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: I am trying to provide a technical solution which placesa class of objects outside of your permissions problem for old content. The solution is there for the taking, without first trying to solve world poverty and hunger.
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: Hyper Grid means that each region you visit has control to edit that
  • [13:33] G2 Proto: right
  • [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: Latif, Agent Domain design allowed for multiple layers of trust. HG seems to assume one size fitgs all
  • [13:33] Saijanai Kuhn: fits*
  • [13:33] G2 Proto: HG assumes massive trust especially in grid operators, luckily were trustworthy!
  • [13:33] Latif Khalifa: Sai, the difference being, AD does not really exist :P
  • [13:33] Zero Linden: I don't see that a big solves much
  • [13:33] Morgaine Dinova: Some people want to interop, others want to restrict. Fine, support both, by allowing objects to be marked as interoperable if their owners desire.
  • [13:34] G2 Proto: exactly Morgaine
  • [13:34] Imaze Rhiano: Foreign grid can access to user local grid assets server - but local grid assets server can allways deny changes or access to assets
  • [13:34] Saijanai Kuhn: how many content creators in on this discussion, BTW? Anyone make their RL living seeling stuff in SL?
  • [13:34] Zero Linden: Morgaine - this isn't exactly a revelation -- Linden has long understood that at the point we start allowing such xfer, we'll have to add a bit that is effectively off for all existing content
  • [13:35] Brookston Holiday: raises hand
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: glances a many terabytes of assets
  • [13:35] Latif Khalifa: i am content creator sai ;)
  • [13:35] G2 Proto: content creator here
  • [13:35] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: excellent. Any ETA on the bit appearing?
  • [13:35] Saijanai Kuhn: RL living?
  • [13:35] Kyrah Abattoir: my question was what happen when an asset coded in lsl enter in a grid that run a C# script engine, the scripts stop working? are they kept? and when you leave the foreign grid does the initial grid take back it's own copy or trust the one the foreign grid send to it?
  • [13:35] G2 Proto: yes
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: And that *if* the bit is on, *and* the two grids agree that the perms requested will be honored, *then* the stuff xfers
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: simple, esay
  • [13:35] Catherine Pfeffer: i create content, even if i don't plan to make a living on it (i usually open source it)
  • [13:35] Latif Khalifa: Sai, will not disclose my income in public :P
  • [13:35] Zero Linden: Only , of course, adding in that bit is no trivial matter.....
  • [13:35] Kyrah Abattoir: i make a living on content, barely
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: So, sure, the bit is just a first step
  • [13:36] G2 Proto: content+events+hosting
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: and only handles the issue of moving inventory (technically, the assets are behind the inventory, the inventory is the thing with the bit)
  • [13:36] Saijanai Kuhn: channeling Prokofy to some extent, but seriously, no control establishes no room for tweaking later on
  • [13:36] Zero Linden: It doesn't address other issues of trust...
  • [13:37] Brookston Holiday: Wouldn't the "bit" be changable by the person running the Grid you are on? Couldn't a nepharius grid operator create a grid where all assets are FULL perm so to speak?
  • [13:37] Zero Linden: And, please don't take my remarks about HG as disapproval -- I'm only trying to understand what is, and how people are using -- both good things to learn
  • [13:37] Saijanai Kuhn: how do they get them? And if they did it once could they ever do it again? Trust issues
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: yes. there are no technical mechanisms that can force a grid-operator to behave nicely... (short of some offensive DRM scheme)
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: The "Nefearious bit"
  • [13:38] Morgaine Dinova: The interop bit is not a property of inventory, but a property of items. You inventory can contain a mixture of interoperable and non-interoperable items.
  • [13:38] Brookston Holiday: Well Saijanai, what if they purchase a widget in SL, take it to their grid to make copies of it scripts and all, then come back to SL and sell for half price, etc..
  • [13:38] Infinity Linden: this is why we call it "trust" and not "security"
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: is why you end up with X.509 or such o prove that the counterparty
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: is someone who signed off on the rules
  • [13:38] Zha Ewry: and you can take them to court if they break them
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: Brookston - the bit could be very very lengthly named: "Allow this inventory item (and it's assets) to be xferd to another grid, if we trust that that grid will honor the rest of the permission bits set on this item and its contents"
  • [13:39] Infinity Linden: we're "trusting" the other side will behave... and we're creating technical systems that can prove they were the ones who behaved badly
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: So - you don't let it go to a grid where you don't trust the operator to not flip bits...
  • [13:39] Teravus Ousley: ultimately it boils down to agreements, contracts, and court/Remedies if the agreements and contracts are broken.
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: unless the item is full-perms, in which case
  • [13:39] Zero Linden: you aren't trusting much
  • [13:39] Zha Ewry: And digital signatuires and trails to prove who did what
  • [13:39] Imaze Rhiano: "This situation is the kernel of the belief that open grids are hopeless for a virtual-goods economy. DRM discussion aside, maybe they are hopeless. But then, everyone thought the web was hopeless for selling music, and look at the success of iTunes in spite of all the piracy that still exists out there. Who will be the equivalent of iTunes for virtual hair, skin and clothes?" [(http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid)]
  • [13:39] Imaze Rhiano: sorry - about copy pasting...
  • [13:40] Saijanai Kuhn: metaverse full-perms Zero. Current full perms bit must assume metaverse bit is off
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: so... please don't TP to the pirate bay sim with content you don't want ripped
  • [13:40] Kyrah Abattoir: i don't mind recycling into hosting entertainment grids on the hypergrid if that's where we are heading, but then the Opensim software is still a loong way to go...
  • [13:40] Zero Linden: Sai - yes, it would --- all exsiting content would be presumed "metaverse off"
  • [13:40] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, if I tp to Pirate Bay sim and my scripts worked, that would be amazing :P
  • [13:40] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [13:41] G2 Proto: OpenSIm is running great if you havent tried it lately you dont know
  • [13:41] Kyrah Abattoir: i have it on my machine i have some buffering problems with terraforming
  • [13:41] Morgaine Dinova: That's the wrong way around infinity. If you TP to the pirate bay sim while wearing items that are restricted, they should simply not go with you.
  • [13:41] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah
  • [13:41] Brookston Holiday: So if I understand (and I probably don't) Allowing your content to interoperate would be allowing it to be copied, but there would be a way to prove that it was copied, at which point it is up to you to protect your own IP? yes?
  • [13:41] Zero Linden: Imaze - so again, I think that position, which is about inventory and assets, is but one view point -- I dont' share it's hopelessness
  • [13:41] Latif Khalifa: and we spend 99% of the time here on the same issue, rights, trusts, etc. while nobody seems to be working on makin the thing work in the first place lol
  • [13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Latif++
  • [13:42] Kyrah Abattoir: well before making something you might want to know what you want it to do?
  • [13:42] Zero Linden: But, the bigger thing to realize with HG is that it goes beyond assets ---
  • [13:42] Imaze Rhiano: ya Latif - we talk - open sim have already done it :)
  • [13:42] Latif Khalifa: Imaze, exactly
  • [13:42] Saijanai Kuhn: Brookston trust agreements between grid operators would make them liable in court for violations AND they would risk losing trust agreement, even if the court case was thrown out
  • [13:43] Latif Khalifa: 1 year of trust discussion isn't going to stop other people from moving ahead :P
  • [13:43] Zha Ewry: Well, mostly, your grid operator gets to handle it. Hopefully individuals don't get sucked into it all that often. You really want to aggregate the cost of that
  • [13:43] Morgaine Dinova: Zero: what Latif has just pointed out bears thinking about --- all this time spent on preventing interop instead of focussing on enabling it first, for a subject of items without legacy problems.
  • [13:43] Saijanai Kuhn: but it does provide 1 year's worth of background reading to cover the issues
  • [13:43] Zero Linden: So, one could think HG is a way to take several autonomous grids, and wrap them into one larger grid --- though the larger grid becomes a single administrative domain, where the administration is shared with the admin. of each part
  • [13:43] G2 Proto: Zero thats EXACTLY how were using it
  • [13:43] Kyrah Abattoir: there has to be a system the to weed out the bad fruits
  • [13:44] G2 Proto: were really using it to grow our own grid, and to provide isolation so if one grid node goes down the others stay up
  • [13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: can grids establish dual hypergrid connections?
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: G2 - and it seems like a fine thing, too!
  • [13:44] G2 Proto: how so Sai?
  • [13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: I.E. can two hypgrid networks coexist with overlapping nodes?
  • [13:44] Zero Linden: Warning - administrative trust is transitive in Hypergrid....
  • [13:44] G2 Proto: yes thats why I am working with my own clients at first, were all kinda in grid cahoots so we dont worry yet about trust as much
  • [13:45] G2 Proto: im dreaqding working through how to handle connecting to other grids outside my clients though
  • [13:45] Morgaine Dinova: And that's what early adopters want --- a class of objects where they don't have to worry about restrictions. Why not provide it, immediately?
  • [13:45] G2 Proto: im not sure Sai I will ask my partner Chris who is our grid tech
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: seems to me that HyperGrid simplifies the problem within a trust domain so you can have multiple grids that don't need to go through trust verification, BUT, doesn't solve the meta-grid problem
  • [13:46] Zero Linden: looks for his magic wand that writes software...
  • [13:46] Imaze Rhiano: if I understand right - hypergrid is basically hyperlinks on their map to hypergrided regions run by others.
  • [13:46] Zha Ewry: Make sure you grab the one that doesn't insert bugs, Zero
  • [13:46] Saijanai Kuhn: wants a copy
  • [13:47] Teravus Ousley: or at most inserts performance issues.. not bugs
  • [13:47] Morgaine Dinova: There's no magic involved in "if (obj->free_interop_bit){ pass_it_across(obj);}"
  • [13:47] G2 Proto: lmaze exactly
  • [13:47] Latif Khalifa: Sai, sorry cannot have it... copy protocol was defined... the discussion got bogged down on trust issues for a couple of years
  • [13:47] Saijanai Kuhn: well, it has to be full-perms + interop bit
  • [13:47] G2 Proto: we have certain sims set aside
  • [13:48] G2 Proto: you go to that sim and then you can see the other grids HG sims
  • [13:48] G2 Proto: then you go to their sims and now your on theior grid
  • [13:48] Zero Linden: glances at 1.2M lines of code....
  • [13:48] G2 Proto: if you want to come over to our grid to try it Im giving tours this week and next
  • [13:48] Zha Ewry: wnoders how long it woudl take to add an attribute to 350 terabytes of data?
  • [13:48] Infinity Linden: hmm.. i think we were thinking it would be more like (if interop bit is set, and the destination grid is trusted to honor the permissions meta-data, allow transfer)
  • [13:49] Imaze Rhiano: Zero you don't need to do that alone... you should have minions somewhere... :P
  • [13:49] Teravus Ousley: "minions"...
  • [13:49] Infinity Linden: @Zha.. if everyone does it one prim at a time...
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: If you want interop to be conditional on interop bit PLUS current perms, then make yet another interop-type bit: unrestricted_interop.
  • [13:49] Morgaine Dinova: I'm trying to make this move forward fast.
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: You still need the bit in the database schema, tho
  • [13:50] Zero Linden: ah yes, my minions.... those underground caverns filled with rag-clad programmers, toiling away with nothing but Jolt and oreos to fuel them....
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgain, the point someone raised a while back was to add interop bits to each set of permission
  • [13:50] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed, that's what I'm asking.
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: And the code to honor it in a few palces
  • [13:50] Infinity Linden: if there were an implementation we could look at (say a set of patches enabling the bits we're talking of... that would be a nice first step.)
  • [13:50] Saijanai Kuhn: so its more than 1 bit
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: and a way of expoising it tot he sims
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: and a gui on the client
  • [13:50] Zha Ewry: sighs
  • [13:51] Zha Ewry: Life was so simple with Archie and Gopher.
  • [13:51] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, patches to what?
  • [13:51] Zero Linden: oh, right, and the protocol for actually getting the sutff across....
  • [13:51] Infinity Linden: OpenSim
  • [13:51] G2 Proto: on the far right/middle is a star shaped sim, thats our HG sim
  • [13:51] Teravus Ousley: Maybe one can get Mana to add a checkbox on the Hippo Client?
  • [13:51] G2 Proto: [2]
  • [13:51] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, for a second I thought you were talking about LL Sim :P
  • [13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Sure, it now becomes 2 bits, if you want the original interop bit to be conditional on perms. But the "unrestricted_interop" bit would be simplicity itself to implement, no perms worries at all.
  • [13:52] Zha Ewry: That said,... its going to become important
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: fwiw.. you don't have to get Mana to add the checkbox.. you add it yourself and publish the patch
  • [13:52] Teravus Ousley: not me. alas
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: nah.. the LL Sim takes too long to QA
  • [13:52] Infinity Linden: besides... residents tend to freak out when you change the permissions system underneath them
  • [13:52] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, plus LL Sim is going open source "soon" since 2007 :P
  • [13:52] Catherine Pfeffer: lol
  • [13:52] G2 Proto: hehe
  • [13:53] Infinity Linden: yes... i saw it in the court records...
  • [13:53] G2 Proto: lol
  • [13:53] Teravus Ousley: well, I think between licensing issues, and a behind the firewall solution.. it probably isn't in the cards any time 'soon'
  • [13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Residents also freak out when you spend 15 months in AWG interop discussions without even adding an interop bit or two into the perms system. :-)
  • [13:54] Latif Khalifa: Teravus. until Linden Lab says otherwise. I am still assuming its going to be opensourced. Just a matter of interpretation of what "soon" means :P
  • [13:54] Teravus Ousley: I dunno, I agree with Zero and Infinity on this one. You cannot change the perms system from under residents
  • [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: it would be illegal to do so, as i understand it
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: Well - I'm not going to appologize for the past here.... OGP and a workable, Internet scale open virtual world are very big concepts
  • [13:55] Teravus Ousley: so, whatever it is that's implemented will need to keep that in mind.
  • [13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Adding interop bits that are default OFF does not change the perms system from under residents.
  • [13:55] Zero Linden: They will not be built in a mere year.
  • [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: Morgaine, true
  • [13:55] G2 Proto: agreed Zero and many details to be worked out too
  • [13:55] Catherine Pfeffer: if you don't change current default, you have not changed anything
  • [13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: BUT, is LL going to be come the CC asset server for the universe without compensation?
  • [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: There are no details to be worked out AT ALL for the "unrestricted_interop" bit.
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: @Morgaine... huh? how does adding a new feature NOT imply a change?
  • [13:56] Zero Linden: Achieving and open internet wide virtual world will be a major accomplishment of boh technical, social and business proportions -- I'm pretty humbled by the work ahead!
  • [13:56] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, when the old behaviour is the default
  • [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: well, its a default to "off" as far as the capabilities of all current assets are concerned
  • [13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: but that's still a change to the code and the db
  • [13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: x & 0 == 0 ... that's why it does not imply a change
  • [13:56] Infinity Linden: i would argue that a fair amount of testing and QA is in order before deploying
  • [13:57] Infinity Linden: but Morgaine... it's not just one if statement in one piece of the code
  • [13:57] Zero Linden: So, that there are so many people here, and still here, after I shared with you our vision 16 months ago - is a testiment to the power of this vision we all share
  • [13:57] Brookston Holiday: monochromatic?
  • [13:57] G2 Proto: Zero the social aspect of HyperGridding alone is making my brain numb some days
  • [13:57] Morgaine Dinova: Infinity: you know darn well what we mean ;-)
  • [13:58] Latif Khalifa: Infinity, any change in code implies that. Adding Homestead product is a change too, didn't seem to stop new server deploy
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: I'm grateful that there is motion at all different speeds: from our long discussions, to this Summer's live interoperability proof of concept, to developments like HyperGrid
  • [13:58] Saijanai Kuhn: a default off Metaverse bit doesn't change things for content creators BUT it requires huge changes on LL's side
  • [13:58] G2 Proto: we're still excited Zero!
  • [13:58] Zero Linden: this means that this stuff is on the right track --- because people - you people - are willing to keep at it on all these levels -- all of which has to get done
  • [13:59] Zero Linden: Moving forward, as this heats up, we are onl going to see even more differening levels of activity
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: some will code ideas and deploy them immediatly, some will talk about semantics,
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: some will write specifications, some will write desiderata
  • [14:00] G2 Proto: im of the code and deploy group and see what holds
  • [14:00] Zero Linden: some will code examples, others will code production
  • [14:00] Zha Ewry: Some will even code powerpoint
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: So - in closing (did I time this well, or what?!?!?!)
  • [14:01] Morgaine Dinova: And what will LL do?
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: I'd honestly like to see more concrete proposals
  • [14:01] G2 Proto: theres a Powerpoint presentation on MS island right now iin fact!
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: at the UML or LLIDL level
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: than "Make it big"
  • [14:01] Zha Ewry: or "Make it fast"
  • [14:01] Zero Linden: I encouraging all of you to see this greater set of activity - and realize, like all "right ideas" that develop in our industry, it will be done at many fronts and many time scales and with differeing opnions and different aims.......
  • [14:02] Zha Ewry: Oh, and some addicts will do it in Omni Graffle
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: ... and THAT is all good
  • [14:02] Infinity Linden: lol
  • [14:02] Morgaine Dinova: If what LL will do is "watch the patches you apply to Opensim" ... then is there even any purpose to AWG? Weren't we supposed to be looking at this from LL's perspective, instead of from Opensim's?
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: okay - all - until next week
  • [14:02] Zero Linden: thanks for coming
  • [14:02] Imaze Rhiano: bye
  • [14:02] Catherine Pfeffer: Thanks Zero
  • [14:02] Rex Cronon: bye zero
  • [14:02] Saijanai Kuhn: thanks zero
  • [14:03] Infinity Linden: cheers!
  • [14:03] Teravus Ousley: tc
  • [14:03] PouletFritesMayO Boucher: bye
  • [14:03] Zha Ewry: charges off to he annoyingly scheduled 2:00 SL meetin